Shanghai Thread

[The Special Juan]

First topic message reminder :

Draw here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Shanghai_Rolex_Masters_%E2%80%93_Singles

Is it just me or is the court painfully slow?

[socal1976]

I never saw the match today so can't truthfully judge. However, why are some of Fed's fans such bitter losers? Such verbal gonorrhea such as that Fed wasn't bothered after knowing he'd secured No.1 spot. What rot. Federer plays to win every game especially against his closest rivals and he won't want to retire with a losing head-to-head against them and so now he trails Murray 10-8. Also according to one Fed fanatic, Federer played awful and won eight games whilst Murray was playing at his ultimate best. Wake up mate and look at the stats. Do believe Andy's serve stats were low (lower than Fed's for the match) by his standards so can presume his serve wasn't at his best at a start. Danny was spot on - neither were at their best but the better player won on the day.

Yes some of the extreme fed fans are the kings of excuse making and simultaneously they are also the kings of getting offended at anyone else making excuses for losses as well. I watched the match and I have never seen Roger's second serve get manhandled like that in one service game in the second set murray blasted I think 3 out of 4 fed seconds for outright winners. He had to hit 10 winners outright off of fed's second delivery. Andy for his part didn't play well either. His forehand frankly misfired something awful on numerous routine forehands that he usually crushes. Still he did do an amazing job of abusing fed's second serve delivery. It was a bizarre match in that some of Roger's serves he missed by 3 and 4 yards and through in numerous double faults as well. Fed served terrible and without the aid of his big serve advantage he just isn't going to beat murray.

[socal1976]

I disagree with the comment in the original article that the courts in Shanghai are slow, they look fast to me.

They haven't played slow at all. Novak for his part has served lights out with big ace numbers over the course of the week. Almost every match has the players hitting more winners than unforced errors, not slow at all. There is this magical tendency whenever federer loses for the courts to become slow.

[socal1976]

Can't wait for the final, obviously the match means a lot more for Novak than for Andy as Novak is still fighting for the #1 ranking plus he has a bad losing streak against the top 4 that he needs to rectify. If Andy serves 53 percent 1sts against Novak I think he will be in for a long day. Djokovic probably based on form is the slight favorite although I think Murray likes the conditions a bit more than Djoko.

[lydian]

Having stated yesterday I expected Murray to win I was duly unsurprised by the result today. Murray has raised a few parts of his game this year:
+ Aggression
+ Service
+ Backhand (...no, not the FH)

Yes backhand...it's a really potent weapon now. Arguably the best on tour when you add in the slice and faded short slice too. I think his game really gets to Federer now in the way Santoro's used to with Safin. The sheer variety confounds Federer at times, it's almost a case of Fed getting his own medicine thrown back at him but with Murray's Mecir-like qualities.

Djokovic is looking very clinical too and hardly broke sweat today - he dismantled the #6 player with ominous ease. His game is clearly starting to '2011 groove' again. It's tough to call tomorrow but I'm going for Novak in 3 sets, Murray winning the first. Just think Novak can ultimately reach higher gears than Murray. However, a lot will depend on form.

[socal1976]

Having stated yesterday I expected Murray to win I was duly unsurprised by the result today. Murray has raised a few parts of his game this year:
+ Aggression
+ Service
+ Backhand (...no, not the FH)

Yes backhand...it's a really potent weapon now. Arguably the best on tour when you add in the slice and faded short slice too. I think his game really gets to Federer now in the way Santoro's used to with Safin. The sheer variety confounds Federer at times, it's almost a case of Fed getting his own medicine thrown back at him but with Murray's Mecir-like qualities.

Djokovic is looking very clinical too and hardly broke sweat today - he dismantled the #6 player with ominous ease. His game is clearly starting to '2011 groove' again. It's tough to call tomorrow but I'm going for Novak in 3 sets, Murray winning the first. Just think Novak can ultimately reach higher gears than Murray. However, a lot will depend on form too.

Good post Lydian, Murray's slice backhand was looking very good today, he can use it both offensively and defensively. Novak has really played well recently. This is what I have been talking about when I kept saying that the mid-season Novak just seemed off form. Many argued with me that 2011 was a one off and that what we witnessed in the summer and spring was Novak's natural level. Ladies and gentleman Novak 2.0 has been slowly but surely resurfacing since his olympic loss. 5 straight finals now in his last 5 tournaments, with wins in Toronto and Beijing. He really should have beat Berdych 6-1 in the first set and then went walk about on his service game when serving for the set and up a set point.

Novak has to be the hungrier of the two players but is also playing with much more pressure than murray since he is fighting a losing streak against the big 4 and is still fighting for the #1 ranking.

[Chydremion]

What??? What has 2006 got to do with it? Are all defeats since null and void because its not 2006 anymore? You're not making sense.

My only point is this, he won because he played better. Roger is the most decorated player in the history of tennis, so why is it so difficult to just admit someone played better today, without attempting to dilute the win?

The point is Murray is not beating the real Federer, he's beating the worn out, father of twins Federer. As I also said, Murray was returning the ball well and hardly made an error, so of course he was better lol.

Indeed, people don't realize how much pregnancy takes out of a player's body. When you've had twins it's even worse.

[CaledonianCraig]

Danny was spot on - neither were at their best but the better player won on the day.

Well obviously Andy was the better player today. No denying that. Some of his returns were just astonishing and he played the right tactics too - nice and aggressive without taking silly risks.

But there is no huge harm in speculating whether or not Fed was trying his absolute hardest today. That is one of the things a forum is for - different people having different views and doing a bit of back-an-forth about them.

Of course people are free to specualate but when they throw pure nonsense in there such as Fed wasn't trying since he'd already secured No.1 and Federer played rubbish whilst Murray was playing at his best then that is not speculation but a massive degree at either clutching at straws or Wummery. As for a bit of back and forth - err well not from me. Federer beat Murray at Wimbledon and that hurt badly but I was still gracious enough to stand up and unequivocally credit Federer.

Anyway like I said I never saw the match and going by stats Federer's serve was off kilter as was Murray's but Murray returned served far better hence the result so the better player won the day. Simples.

[Henman Bill]

Summer Blues, if Murray ends the year on a decent tear, he could be in a "win the AO to reach #1" position. He wasn't in the final last year, adn Djokovic won it, so there is a potential for big turnoever there.

[Danny_1982]

Can't wait for the final, obviously the match means a lot more for Novak than for Andy as Novak is still fighting for the #1 ranking plus he has a bad losing streak against the top 4 that he needs to rectify. If Andy serves 53 percent 1sts against Novak I think he will be in for a long day. Djokovic probably based on form is the slight favorite although I think Murray likes the conditions a bit more than Djoko.

Yes it probably does mean more to Novak. Not that Murray will be doing anything but going for it 100%, but in the same way Murray needed New York more than Novak, certainly Novak needs this more than Murray just to end that top 4 streak. It will end of course over the next few months, just a case of when.

Novak has played the better tennis to get to the final, but to be fair he's done that in getting to the semis of 90% of the tournaments I've seen this year. He was more convincing getting to the final in New York.

I'm really unsure how it will go. They match up so well and both get to so much that it may be settled by fractions, just like the AO, Olympics, New York... It may not be to everyone's taste, but its my favourite match up on the tour these days. If pushed I'd maybe edge it to Novak.

[CaledonianCraig]

Not so sure. Andy should be taking this match very seriously as it will keep the momentum ticking over in the big matches against the big players. Another win tomorrow would be his fifth successive win in matches against Djokovic and Federer and add more confidence and belief to himself that he is on the verge of something really big. It should be a cracker as Novak seems to be playing a lot better now and will be out for revenge.

[socal1976]

Danny I think the wind really damaged his form in that USO final Danny. I agree Murray seems to be hard to read in terms of his performance from one match to the next. I think he won the USO and looked about as poor as he could in terms of form well till he lifted the trophy.

I think Novak will maybe have that bit more desire in this matchup that will see him through. But again the margins are so fine it really can go either way. I think it will come down to the player who serves better as it always does when these two meet.

By the way you are selling Novak short he is much better than 90 percent, the only tournament this year that he has lost in the before the semis was madrid on Ian Tiriac' dodgey clay court. I don't really know if I even count that loss frankly. But other than 12 of 13 straight tourneys he has reached semis or better and 7 in a row I believe now.

[Danny_1982]

What I meant socal is in 90% of the tournaments that he has reached the semis or final, he has looked the best player in that tournament up to that point. It was a compliment, not a criticism.

As for the New York weather, yes it played a part because it allowed Murray to take advantage of one of the things he does a lot better... The slice. He can cut it viscously, use loads of side spin, leave it dead on the baseline with no pace, play it short... And it's so reliable, he rarely gets it wrong. I wonder if Novak will work on his slice now, as he previously identified his volleying as a weak point and worked on it and his volleying is loads better nowadays.

[The Special Juan]

I'd say it was about even going into the match tomorrow. Ok, Novak looks ominous but he's looked ominous against the "little guys" all year yet had a poor record against the top 4. He might win tomorrow but it will be the hardest match he's played all tournament.

Got to say the way he beat Berdych was amazing but he still chucked in the duff service game which, sad to say, I've come to expect of Djokovic this year.

[Josiah Maiestas]

To be a really good winner you have to be a very bad loser, which is what me and Federer are, we are like soulmates in that regard. Looks like a jealous Djoko fan is out giving it verbals now. Djokovic, forever known as the man losing a slam final to serial loser Murray.

lol!

[lydian]

Good post Lydian, Murray's slice backhand was looking very good today, he can use it both offensively and defensively. Novak has really played well recently. This is what I have been talking about when I kept saying that the mid-season Novak just seemed off form. Many argued with me that 2011 was a one off and that what we witnessed in the summer and spring was Novak's natural level. Ladies and gentleman Novak 2.0 has been slowly but surely resurfacing since his olympic loss. 5 straight finals now in his last 5 tournaments, with wins in Toronto and Beijing. He really should have beat Berdych 6-1 in the first set and then went walk about on his service game when serving for the set and up a set point.

Novak has to be the hungrier of the two players but is also playing with much more pressure than murray since he is fighting a losing streak against the big 4 and is still fighting for the #1 ranking.

Yes socal, agree his slice was outstanding today. I would agree Djokovic 2.0 is re-emerging, I think his battles up to Wimbledon with Rafa took the mental wind out of his sails and its taken a while to get his mojo back. I even think he was undone by the wind at USO (as was Berdych) not Murray per se. Now things are getting back on an even keel again he's showing his quality...he's been winning this event at a canter so far. Unlike Federer, Djokovic will not be throwing in lots of errors and DFs tomorrow and will stretch Murray all over the court. That said, it won't be a walk in the park and he may need 3 sets to do it.

[CAS]

Federer lost 2 tight sets 6-4 6-4 playing poorly, it could have been so much worse. In a way I think Roger is relieved it was close

[summerblues]

Summer Blues, if Murray ends the year on a decent tear, he could be in a "win the AO to reach #1" position. He wasn't in the final last year, adn Djokovic won it, so there is a potential for big turnoever there.

I was assuming that would be very hard. But I have not looked at the numbers closely enough, so you may well be right. One way or another, the fight for #1 could be quite interesting in 2013.

[User 774433]

Good post Lydian, Murray's slice backhand was looking very good today, he can use it both offensively and defensively. Novak has really played well recently. This is what I have been talking about when I kept saying that the mid-season Novak just seemed off form. Many argued with me that 2011 was a one off and that what we witnessed in the summer and spring was Novak's natural level. Ladies and gentleman Novak 2.0 has been slowly but surely resurfacing since his olympic loss. 5 straight finals now in his last 5 tournaments, with wins in Toronto and Beijing. He really should have beat Berdych 6-1 in the first set and then went walk about on his service game when serving for the set and up a set point.

Novak has to be the hungrier of the two players but is also playing with much more pressure than murray since he is fighting a losing streak against the big 4 and is still fighting for the #1 ranking.

Yes socal, agree his slice was outstanding today. I would agree Djokovic 2.0 is re-emerging, I think his battles up to Wimbledon with Rafa took the mental wind out of his sails and its taken a while to get his mojo back. I even think he was undone by the wind at USO (as was Berdych) not Murray per se. Now things are getting back on an even keel again he's showing his quality...he's been winning this event at a canter so far. Unlike Federer, Djokovic will not be throwing in lots of errors and DFs tomorrow and will stretch Murray all over the court. That said, it won't be a walk in the park and he may need 3 sets to do it.

Djokovic is playing as well as he did in Miami 2012.

[User 774433]

But Murray's improved since then.

[lydian]

Yes he has...lets see if a Djokovic has too.
Tomorrow will reveal a few things, albeit over Bo3 format.

[CAS]

Would Murray be the first play ever to win their first slams consecutively were he to win Melbourne?

[ryan86]

You'd probably need Murray to go on a Federer-like run between now and the end of the season. Even if Murray wins tomorrow, he'll still be over 3000 points behind Djokovic. Murray winning the Australian Open, defeating Djokovic in the final, would cause a 2,000 swing, so to achieve that he would have to outscore Djokovic by over a 1,000 points over Basel, Paris and the WTF, plus a possible 250 pre-Australia.

An interesting thought would be if Murray produces a good end to the season, wins in Australia and then has a slightly better clay court season with Nadal coming back to be Djokovic's nemesis on clay as in 2012, whether Murray could actually become No 1 during the clay court season.

[summerblues]

An interesting thought would be if Murray produces a good end to the season, wins in Australia and then has a slightly better clay court season with Nadal coming back to be Djokovic's nemesis on clay as in 2012, whether Murray could actually become No 1 during the clay court season.

Yes, that is exactly what I had in mind too. Happily, from Andy's perspective, under such a scenario, he might not have to beat Nadal and Nole on clay - just consistently reaching SF and losing to them might well be enough.

[socal1976]

Good post Lydian, Murray's slice backhand was looking very good today, he can use it both offensively and defensively. Novak has really played well recently. This is what I have been talking about when I kept saying that the mid-season Novak just seemed off form. Many argued with me that 2011 was a one off and that what we witnessed in the summer and spring was Novak's natural level. Ladies and gentleman Novak 2.0 has been slowly but surely resurfacing since his olympic loss. 5 straight finals now in his last 5 tournaments, with wins in Toronto and Beijing. He really should have beat Berdych 6-1 in the first set and then went walk about on his service game when serving for the set and up a set point.

Novak has to be the hungrier of the two players but is also playing with much more pressure than murray since he is fighting a losing streak against the big 4 and is still fighting for the #1 ranking.

Yes socal, agree his slice was outstanding today. I would agree Djokovic 2.0 is re-emerging, I think his battles up to Wimbledon with Rafa took the mental wind out of his sails and its taken a while to get his mojo back. I even think he was undone by the wind at USO (as was Berdych) not Murray per se. Now things are getting back on an even keel again he's showing his quality...he's been winning this event at a canter so far. Unlike Federer, Djokovic will not be throwing in lots of errors and DFs tomorrow and will stretch Murray all over the court. That said, it won't be a walk in the park and he may need 3 sets to do it.

Yes for me Novak won't have completely reemerged from his mid season doldrums till he breaks his duck against the top 4, he started the year winning the majority of his big 4 matches and then the clay court losses to Rafa and the summer blues over took him. His shots just look like they are penetrating more particularly the serve and the forehand. It has been a slow and steady build up for him and the murray match will really test this proposition that he is rounding back in Novak 2.0 form. He may lose the match but the way he has played the last couple months should allow him to continue to build to a strong finish. Something Novak hasn't been able to do in 2011 and 2010.

But I agree on the murray match being very difficult I think Murray's second serve is better it was very weak up until the early part of the season, if I had to point to one thing on Andy improving his results in the second half of the year is that improvement in the second serve. I also think the lower boucing conditions to an extent favor murray as well, where as Djoko has had the better form.

[socal1976]

What I meant socal is in 90% of the tournaments that he has reached the semis or final, he has looked the best player in that tournament up to that point. It was a compliment, not a criticism.

As for the New York weather, yes it played a part because it allowed Murray to take advantage of one of the things he does a lot better... The slice. He can cut it viscously, use loads of side spin, leave it dead on the baseline with no pace, play it short... And it's so reliable, he rarely gets it wrong. I wonder if Novak will work on his slice now, as he previously identified his volleying as a weak point and worked on it and his volleying is loads better nowadays.

I know you were being complimentary just used it as an excuse to trump out that statistics on Djoko, Danny, cheers. I agree the slice backhand is something Novak has to work on, I think it is a better less floaty shot than it was two and 3 years ago but I think he can learn to use it a little better offensively to extract errors from his opponent and to create openings to move up into the court.

[bogbrush]

Danny was spot on - neither were at their best but the better player won on the day.

Well obviously Andy was the better player today. No denying that. Some of his returns were just astonishing and he played the right tactics too - nice and aggressive without taking silly risks.

But there is no huge harm in speculating whether or not Fed was trying his absolute hardest today. That is one of the things a forum is for - different people having different views and doing a bit of back-an-forth about them.

Of course people are free to specualate but when they throw pure nonsense in there such as Fed wasn't trying since he'd already secured No.1 and Federer played rubbish whilst Murray was playing at his best then that is not speculation but a massive degree at either clutching at straws or Wummery. As for a bit of back and forth - err well not from me. Federer beat Murray at Wimbledon and that hurt badly but I was still gracious enough to stand up and unequivocally credit Federer.

Anyway like I said I never saw the match and going by stats Federer's serve was off kilter as was Murray's but Murray returned served far better hence the result so the better player won the day. Simples.

Craig, who actually said he wasn't trying because he was already #1? I can't recall anyone saying that (doesn't mean they didn't, but I haven't seen it). I saw someone reference my post before the match happened that was on the subject of whether he'd have come here were it not for 300 but that can't be it.

[CaledonianCraig]

I don't really see what the rush is all about Murray getting to the No.1 slot. He still has time on his side so if it doesn't happen in the next three or four months (which is unlikely IMO anyway) I won't be in a panic. It is an important match (very important) in the context of psychological and in where it leaves both men for the future. If Novak wins it puts him back on an even keel and halts a mini-run of defeats against Murray and gives him a boost for the last stretch of the season. A Murray win would keep him in a very favourable place mentally, extend his winning run in big matches over Djoko and give him back-to-back wins against the world No.1 and world No.2 and cement his belief he can make that No.1 slot his one day. As for a defeat I think it would be worse for Djoko as it would still leave him searching for answers as to how to get back to winning ways in crunch matches and although it will burst Murray's unbeaten run in Shanghaii over the last three years he is still living in the US Open bubble so can't see him being too distraught as he did get the scalp of Federer. That may be different though if he loses heavily/tamely.

[CaledonianCraig]

Danny was spot on - neither were at their best but the better player won on the day.

Well obviously Andy was the better player today. No denying that. Some of his returns were just astonishing and he played the right tactics too - nice and aggressive without taking silly risks.

But there is no huge harm in speculating whether or not Fed was trying his absolute hardest today. That is one of the things a forum is for - different people having different views and doing a bit of back-an-forth about them.

Of course people are free to specualate but when they throw pure nonsense in there such as Fed wasn't trying since he'd already secured No.1 and Federer played rubbish whilst Murray was playing at his best then that is not speculation but a massive degree at either clutching at straws or Wummery. As for a bit of back and forth - err well not from me. Federer beat Murray at Wimbledon and that hurt badly but I was still gracious enough to stand up and unequivocally credit Federer.

Anyway like I said I never saw the match and going by stats Federer's serve was off kilter as was Murray's but Murray returned served far better hence the result so the better player won the day. Simples.

Craig, who actually said he wasn't trying because he was already #1? I can't recall anyone saying that (doesn't mean they didn't, but I haven't seen it). I saw someone reference my post before the match happened that was on the subject of whether he'd have come here were it not for 300 but that can't be it.

But he was here and playing to win. Remember the big guys meet and it is a psychological battle so in no way did Fed want to lose any ground on that front which he did. Your 300 comment meant what exactly? If you meant he was only playing here to reach his world No.1 slot and couldn't give a stuff about the rest once he had achieved that then this is tosh as he went a round or two further AFTER securing that spot so that doesn't hold up. If you meant he was more interested in securing the 300 weeks and is why he came to Shanghai first and foremost and that is all you meant by it then fair enough but that is just a sport of massive straw clutching you are indulging in and I think you know that. Both players walked onto court with the intention of winning and the both didn't produce their best but the better player on the day won - Andy Murray.

[bogbrush]

So you DID mean my post?? You're way off here, you've got the wrong end of the stick.

I wrote that in the context that, given his comments a few weeks go that had us all speculating that he was going to skip the event, he was only coming here to secure 300 milestone. I think that's true; he's looked very poor all week (the laboured win over Stan for example, a player he completely owns) and he looks to me like the season end can't come soon enough. Without that incentive I'm certain he'd not have bothered showing up.

[CaledonianCraig]

And I'd say that is straw clutching. Fed wanted that win but not saying he was near his best or anything but neither was Murray so it comes down to the best player winning on the day and that was Murray. Lets just leave it at that without all the excuses and speculation.

[bogbrush]

And I'd say that is straw clutching. Fed wanted that win but not saying he was near his best or anything but neither was Murray so it comes down to the best player winning on the day and that was Murray. Lets just leave it at that without all the excuses and speculation.

Craig, it's hard to talk about anything that can connect to Murray with you, you're so fast to perceive any sleight on Murray.
Just so I'm 100% clear, my post was on the subject of Federer's approach to this season end. Nothing whatsoever to do with this semi.

You're massively overreacting. In fact it's worse than that, you're reacting to something that isn't even there.

[CaledonianCraig]

Well was there a post from you yesterday alluding to what I was saying and what Federer himself said as in the best player won on the day? Not that I could see. Would have been nice ie credit where credit is due but hey-ho perhaps that was expecting a bit much. I have my faults as a poster as do you - yours is an inability to accept and openly admit that Federer lost a tennis match without any strings attached ie lost to the better player on the day. Pity that. As for mine my posts came following a day at work folloing the thread on a mobile so wasn't totally zoned in on comments but re-read those comments and from some there are some really sad remarks.

[bogbrush]

This is getting worse by the post.

Now I'm supposed to behave like I'm in a position to pay tribute? The problem here is that you're wrong to think this is about Murray, but fundamentally it's really absurd to say that unless posters come on to praise Andy they are somehow at fault.
As for your insult, well that's really out of order. You can go back to the 2009 USO final when I saluted Del Potros win as a sign of a changing of the guard and praised him to the sky. I have no issue with Federer losing; as he's slipped back over the last few years its been routine to watch him lose to all sorts of players and its years since Federer was at a level that apart from Nadal on clay, a defeat had anyone scratching their heads to explain it.

You Scots do have a reputation for excessive sensitivity to perceived criticism, don't live the stereotype. I'm not having a go at Murray at all, I'll be hoping he wins today; with Nadal out and Federer declining the sport needs some competition.

[CaledonianCraig]

Who says anything about paying tribute? Look back over this thread and certainly see nothing from you accepting the situation as it was yesterday that the better player won on the day. We had a comment alluding to the 300 issue but not your true and complete thoughts on the match. Others (not you) came out with the ridiculous comments such as 'the worst player won the match' and stuff like Federer played rubbish and won eight games whilst Murray was at his best. Fair comments? Absolutely not which I am sure even you would agree with. Perhaps I am just from the old school who openly gives credit where credit is due no matter if Murray is beaten and can and has openly-criticised my favourite player at times. If that is my crime I plead guilty.

[bogbrush]

You contradict yourself straight off. You don't want tribute but you you take exception to me not turning up to say how well Murray did.

And now "even" I must accept others made daft comments? "EVEN" me?? Listen to yourself.

If you're so old school perhaps you'll hold your hands up that you've misread my posts.

[CaledonianCraig]

Have I mis-read your posts though? I don't know as I haven't heard your thoughts on the match. And where did I say you must agree with me? Now who is mis-reading posts?

[bogbrush]

Have I mis-read your posts though? I don't know as I haven't heard your thoughts on the match. And where did I say you must agree with me? Now who is mis-reading posts?

1. Yes, because my post wasn't about the match. Now how does a match report help that?

2. Quote from you last post "Others (not you) came out with....... Fair comments? Absolutely not, which I am sure even you would agree with"

Looks like its not me misreading posts. Of course, what I really drew your attention to was the use of 'even' as an exclamation, suggesting I was holding some extreme position that would be tested by Jodiahs comment.

[CaledonianCraig]

1. Your post wasn't about the match yes that was mis-read and like I said I was reading comments on my mobile yesterday at work. However, the remark could still hold water in how you feel about the match now. I do not know how you feel the match went as you have not posted your comments on it so your thoughts on the match would substantially clear things up.

2. No you said I said you MUST agree with you. I never used that word at all.

[CaledonianCraig]

In other words if you hold true with what Roger said afterwards that the best player won on the day and that is it then yes the 300 remark was mis-read on my behalf and my apolgies to you.. But if you feel Federer wasn't too bothered about the match result at all which affected his performance then sorry but your comment wasn't mis-read.

[bogbrush]

In other words if you hold true with what Roger said afterwards that the best player won on the day and that is it then yes the 300 remark was mis-read on my behalf and my apolgies to you.. But if you feel Federer wasn't too bothered about the match result at all affecting his performance then sorry but your comment wasn't mis-read.

The logical problem here is that my post was written long before the match and about his end of season situation so comments about the match are irrelevant. I'm not going to 'dance' to correct being represented wrongly. It's a straightforward error to home in on the reports of my post.

[socal1976]

I have never had a problem even making critical posts in discussing Murray with Craig. My personal experience is that most murray fans, Craig included are pretty reasonable about Murray when he plays well and when he doesn't. In my personal experience I have often criticized murray to Craig and when he hasn't performed up to snuff he has even agreed with my criticisms. It comes down to a feeling that craig, and fans of other players may have when they feel that double standards or unfair criticisms are levelled. I find for example that many, not all fed fans, but a distinct minority like to diminish and disrespect the other members of the big 4 while fed and his accomplishments are inviolate.

[CaledonianCraig]

In other words if you hold true with what Roger said afterwards that the best player won on the day and that is it then yes the 300 remark was mis-read on my behalf and my apolgies to you.. But if you feel Federer wasn't too bothered about the match result at all affecting his performance then sorry but your comment wasn't mis-read.

The logical problem here is that my post was written long before the match and about his end of season situation so comments about the match are irrelevant.

Fair enough BB but I am curious as to how the match went in your opinion. And apologies to you.

[CaledonianCraig]

I have never had a problem even making critical posts in discussing Murray with Craig. My personal experience is that most murray fans, Craig included are pretty reasonable about Murray when he plays well and when he doesn't. In my personal experience I have often criticized murray to Craig and when he hasn't performed up to snuff he has even agreed with my criticisms. It comes down to a feeling that craig, and fans of other players may have when they feel that double standards or unfair criticisms are levelled. I find for example that many, not all fed fans, but a distinct minority like to diminish and disrespect the other members of the big 4 while fed and his accomplishments are inviolate.

Cheers socal.

I like to think I am fair to all players with regards to credit where credit is due. Sure I get too overly-sensitive at times but is that a massive crime? I can be objective and critical of even my favourite player and will take Murray's defeats on the chin.

[bogbrush]

In other words if you hold true with what Roger said afterwards that the best player won on the day and that is it then yes the 300 remark was mis-read on my behalf and my apolgies to you.. But if you feel Federer wasn't too bothered about the match result at all affecting his performance then sorry but your comment wasn't mis-read.

The logical problem here is that my post was written long before the match and about his end of season situation so comments about the match are irrelevant.

Fair enough BB but I am curious as to how the match went in your opinion. And apologies to you.

I'm flattered that anyone gives enough weight to my opinion!

My opinion is that Murray is flying high and Roger is - according to a recent interview - a bit like the Red Bulls just were in Korea; that is nursing through to the finish line. Murray can play better on serve but serve isn't really all that crucial to Andy so long as it doesn't mean rolling in weak seconds, but he's really playing well on return and rallying.

Federer going into 2013 is now in the state that he can compete if he plays at his current best level, his par level isn't good enough, and his sub-par sees him lose to the other (sub#4) guys. Now that the last #1 ranking milestones of Pete's record & 300 are done I can see him having to focus even more tightly on Slams at the expense of ranking, though he'll only drop out of the top 4 when he's truly done - the rest are also-rans.

Murray can get to #1 but he has to start by winning today. The 800 point switch will really matter if his aim to to be #1 going into Wimbledon (his best target).

The result is that it was an easy 4 & 4, not really that close.

Edit; to clarify the exposure to sub #4 players.

[socal1976]

That is right craig, giving credit where credit is due is the key there in my mind to being a fair poster. I have my opinions but I give these guys their respect and try to be even handed. You support your favorite player, and people are entitled to dislike murray but should not be surprised that a players supporters might take a dim view of the idea that fed locked in a race for #1 didn't care that much about the match. To be fair if Djoko had just beat fed or vice versa I would find it pretty silly to argue that Fed could not really be bothered. It seems however that BB is not saying that I don't know if he did or didn't because I honestly didn't read that part of the thread.

[CaledonianCraig]

In other words if you hold true with what Roger said afterwards that the best player won on the day and that is it then yes the 300 remark was mis-read on my behalf and my apolgies to you.. But if you feel Federer wasn't too bothered about the match result at all affecting his performance then sorry but your comment wasn't mis-read.

The logical problem here is that my post was written long before the match and about his end of season situation so comments about the match are irrelevant.

Fair enough BB but I am curious as to how the match went in your opinion. And apologies to you.

I'm flattered that anyone gives enough weight to my opinion!

My opinion is that Murray is flying high and Roger is - according to a recent interview - a bit like the Red Bulls just were in Korea; that is nursing through to the finish line. Murray can play better on serve but serve isn't really all that crucial to Andy so long as it doesn't mean rolling in weak seconds, but he's really playing well on return and rallying.

Federer going into 2013 is now in the state that he can compete if he plays at his current best level, his par level isn't good enough, and his sub-par sees him lose to the other (sub#4) guys. Now that the last #1 ranking milestones of Pete's record & 300 are done I can see him having to focus even more tightly on Slams at the expense of ranking, though he'll only drop out of the top 4 when he's truly done - the rest are also-rans.

Murray can get to #1 but he has to start by winning today. The 800 point switch will really matter if his aim to to be #1 going into Wimbledon (his best target).

The result is that it was an easy 4 & 4, not really that close.

Edit; to clarify the exposure to sub #4 players.

Okay thanks for clearing that up and yes your views are important. You are a staunch Federer fan so it is good to hear from one of the most vocal and active of posters on the subject - win or lose. Thanks for posting that and apologies again.

[bogbrush]

No probs.

[lydian]

Bummer, I've got a tennis league match this morning...going to miss the Djokovic vs Murray final. Thank heavens for Sky Plus...not the same as watching live though! And I quite like to read comments on here at the same time as the match...so better not do that during the recording!

For me if both play to 90% today then Djokovic has to be the winner but could be tough getting there. A lot hinges on Murray's aggression, 2nd serve variety and Djokovic's FH and defence.

It's my least favoured of the big4 match ups because their styles are the most similar but an interesting one nonetheless with what has preceded this year.

Enjoy the match guys

[Josiah Maiestas]

Thats what I call a strong start.

Lets see if Murray is a Spartan?

[laverfan]

Longest ATP final this year.

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