Heineken Cup Round 1 (Pool 1): Edinburgh Rugby v Saracens

First topic message reminder :

Saturday 13 October 2012
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 15:35
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)

Teams:

Edinburgh:

15 Tom Brown,
14 Lee Jones,
13 Nick De Luca,
12 Matt Scott,
11 Tim Visser,

10 Greig Laidlaw (capt),
9 Richie Rees,

8 Stuart McInally,
7 Ross Rennie,
6 David Denton,
5 Sean Cox,
4 Grant Gilchrist,
3 Willem Nel,
2 Ross Ford,
1 John Yapp.

Replacements:
16 Andy Titterrell, 17 Allan Jacobsen, 18 Geoff Cross, 19 Robert McAlpine, 20 Netani Talei, 21 Chris Leck, 22 Harry Leonard, 23 Dougie Fife

Saracens:

15 Alex Goode,
14 Chris Ashton,
13 Joel Tomkins,
12 Brad Barritt,
11 David Strettle,

10 Charlie Hodgson,
9 Richard Wigglesworth,

8 Jackson Wray,
7 Will Fraser,
6 Kelly Brown,
5 Mouritz Botha,
4 Steve Borthwick (capt),
3 Matt Stevens,
2 Schalk Brits,
1 Mako Vunipola.

Replacements:
16 John Smit, 17 Rhys Gill, 18 Petrus du Plessis, 19 George Kruis, 20 Andy Saull, 21 Neil de Kock, 22 Owen Farrell, 23 Chris Wyles

Current form in domestic league:

Edinburgh:

9th Place - Played 6: W 2 D 0 L 4 - 12 points

Saracens:

4th Place - Played 6: W 4 D 1 L 1 - 20 points

Last year's Heineken Cup:

Edinburgh:

Semi-finalists (lost 22-19 to Ulster at the Aviva Stadium)

Saracens:

Quarter-finalists (lost 3-22 to ASM Clermont Auvergne at Vicarage Road)

RDW Scotland don't underestimate pressure.

When you are nervous your errors are compounded. Lots of pressure on Edinburgh before this game. As the game wore on it got worse and worse.

Look I am not saying Edinburgh weren't poor they were.

When you are facing one of the best lineouts arguably in Europe it puts a lot more pressure on the hooker.

Same with the defence. Saracens' defence gets in your face so quickly. You know you are going to get smashed.

The belief completely vanished after Farrell's try and the floodgates opened.

To keep Edinburgh to no points just tells you how annoying Saracens are.

Their trick is to not give cheap points to the opposition.

Only Scottish people could argue over how bad their team were......!

Makes a change from the welsh always saying how amazing they are!

Well, i've said it on another thread, and i'm bound to get lambasted for reposting it here, but I think that what this weekend has shown is that none of the Italian or Scottish sides, and to quite an extent the Welsh Regions, are of a standard that would justify automatic HC qualification.

Its no wonder the French and English clubs are threatening to break away..

Jimpy wrote:Well, i've said it on another thread, and i'm bound to get lambasted for reposting it here, but I think that what this weekend has shown is that none of the Italian or Scottish sides, and to quite an extent the Welsh Regions, are of a standard that would justify automatic HC qualification.

Its no wonder the French and English clubs are threatening to break away..

Yeah right. Remember last season? Edinburgh in the QF having beaten several major teams. Treviso are no pushovers either.

What I don't understand is why Laidlaw did not mix it up? Chipping oveer the blitz or pop passes inside?

Bit harsh Jimpy - Glasgow ran the Saints close yesterday and as us Edinburgh fans like to bring up quite a lot, we did make the Semi finals last year having beaten London Irish Twice, Racing Metro twice, Blues once and Toulouse....

Trevisio are no pushovers either.

Zebre on the other hand are poor.

TJ wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Well, i've said it on another thread, and i'm bound to get lambasted for reposting it here, but I think that what this weekend has shown is that none of the Italian or Scottish sides, and to quite an extent the Welsh Regions, are of a standard that would justify automatic HC qualification.

Its no wonder the French and English clubs are threatening to break away..

Yeah right. Remember last season? Edinburgh in the QF having beaten several major teams. Treviso are no pushovers either.

One swallow doesn't make a Summer. Massively nilled at home on Saturday suggests that last season was an anomaly, rather than the norm.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Bit harsh Jimpy - Glasgow ran the Saints close yesterday and as us Edinburgh fans like to bring up quite a lot, we did make the Semi finals last year having beaten London Irish Twice, Racing Metro twice, Blues once and Toulouse....

Trevisio are no pushovers either.

Zebre on the other hand are poor.

Glasgow didn't trouble the score sheet after Saints woke up, Glasgow were ineffective in the face of the relentless pressure.

Behave. How many English teams in the QF last year? When did and English team last win it? Leicester smashed by Toulouse - who were beaten by Edinburgh last year

I know TJ- the English teams have one good week and suddenly they are the best in Europe and no one else is worthy.

Jimpy wrote:
Glasgow didn't trouble the score sheet after Saints woke up, Glasgow were ineffective in the face of the relentless pressure.

Or after their key play maker (Jackson) was injured and in addition they had to replace a winger with a hooker when Lamont got injured.

Do people think before posting here or just mash the keyboard with their hands and call it a post.

The standards in 606v2 are dropping quickly when blatant attempts to WUM like this are posted.

TJ I think it's down to the tactics.

The whole cliche is you have to earn the right to go wide.

Edinburgh tried the high risk high reward expansive style but if your accuracy is off it's meat and drink for the opposition. Edinburgh did actually create gaps and overlaps but the execution wasn't there. You could argue this was both pressure by Saracens and poor handling.

This is one game. We'll see how Saracens and Edinburgh do in their next games. It's too early to say how each side will do in the HC. If Edinburgh can beat Munster then they are back in the mix. Unlikely I know but you do have half the Scottish side. Believe.

This game is over now. Both sides should focus on winning their next match.

If I were Edinburgh I would go into the Munster game with nothing to lose. Let's be honest you are expected to lose so I would tell the team to play with a freedom and confidence they didn't against Saracens.

Just go for it to restore some pride.

TJ wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Well, i've said it on another thread, and i'm bound to get lambasted for reposting it here, but I think that what this weekend has shown is that none of the Italian or Scottish sides, and to quite an extent the Welsh Regions, are of a standard that would justify automatic HC qualification.

Its no wonder the French and English clubs are threatening to break away..

Yeah right. Remember last season? Edinburgh in the QF having beaten several major teams. Treviso are no pushovers either.

Exactly, Edinburgh only beat Toulouse in a knock out game last season, English clubs like Leicester could have done that far better....oh.

I do wonder why a team like Zebre are in the Heineken cup and not Amlin though. But they're the only one that's an annomaly.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Jimpy wrote:
Glasgow didn't trouble the score sheet after Saints woke up, Glasgow were ineffective in the face of the relentless pressure.

Or after their key play maker (Jackson) was injured and in addition they had to replace a winger with a hooker when Lamont got injured.

Do people think before posting here or just mash the keyboard with their hands and call it a post.

The standards in 606v2 are dropping quickly when blatant attempts to WUM like this are posted.

Oh i'm terribly sorry, I didn't realise that Scottish teams were so consistently marvelous in Europe, and that pointing out any shortcomings is now considered to be a WUM.

At least English teams have won the European cup, which has been dominated by English, French and of late, Irish teams. No Scottish, Welsh or Italian names on the cup - or have I missed something.

You haven't missed anything. But you did make some sweeping statements in your post, with no effort to quantify your comments.

Still waiting for you to justify your comments regarding Glasgow when you said they only got ahead because Northampton were asleep.

The fact that Glasgow lost their play making no.10 at halftime and had to put a hooker on the wing to cover injuries. You dont think either of those circumstances had any impact on the 2nd half?

Secondly as RDW noted Edinburgh beat London Irish home and away last season, as Well as RM home and away and beat Tolouse to rightfully claim a spot in the semi finals last year. A little respect wouldn't go amiss.

I will concede they were terrible on Saturday though but you can't belittle their achievements from last season by one bad game/result.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:You haven't missed anything. But you did make some sweeping statements in your post, with no effort to quantify your comments.

Still waiting for you to justify your comments regarding Glasgow when you said they only got ahead because Northampton were asleep.

The fact that Glasgow lost their play making no.10 at halftime and had to put a hooker on the wing to cover injuries. You dont think either of those circumstances had any impact on the 2nd half?

Secondly as RDW noted Edinburgh beat London Irish home and away last season, as Well as RM home and away and beat Tolouse to rightfully claim a spot in the semi finals last year. A little respect wouldn't go amiss.

I will concede they were terrible on Saturday though but you can't belittle their achievements from last season by one bad game/result.

They got (well) ahead by making the most of some Saints defensive errors early on. They then didn't trouble the scoreboard. At all. The lack of strength in depth wasn't Saints' fault, it is however indicative of the paucity in Scottish Rugby - which, I think, was part of my original point.

Fair play to Edinburgh last season. They performed very well.

Unfortunately guys I hate to be critical but you can't dine off that semi final for too long.

It's the present that really matters. Equally you shouldn't dwell too much on this result on the weekend. Just write it off and look to the Munster game for redemption.

Edinburgh have some quality players. We know Edinburgh has the potential to perform well. It's about starting to prove it on a consistent basis.

beshocked wrote:Fair play to Edinburgh last season. They performed very well.

Unfortunately guys I hate to be critical but you can't dine off that semi final for too long.

It's the present that really matters. Equally you shouldn't dwell too much on this result on the weekend. Just write it off and look to the Munster game for redemption.

Edinburgh have some quality players. We know Edinburgh has the potential to perform well. It's about starting to prove it on a consistent basis.

So do Sale, but it didn't stop them from losing their first 6 matches of the domestic season in a row - until, of course, they came up against a Welsh Region (that were comfortably in front)

beshocked wrote:Fair play to Edinburgh last season. They performed very well.

Unfortunately guys I hate to be critical but you can't dine off that semi final for too long.

It's the present that really matters. Equally you shouldn't dwell too much on this result on the weekend. Just write it off and look to the Munster game for redemption.

Edinburgh have some quality players. We know Edinburgh has the potential to perform well. It's about starting to prove it on a consistent basis.

I quite agree - its just pointing out the nonsense from Jimpy - who I guess like all trolls is better if not fed.

The truth is Edinburgh at the moment are distinctly second rate in HC terms - but there are not many teams realistically who have a decent chance of winning. Half a dozen teams in with a chance? A couple each from France, Ireland and England? The rest are second rate in comparison. However they merit a place in the HC.

Sounds like jimpy wants a competition with just English and French teams - goof luck with that!

I know we can't dine out on the semi final forever, but it kind of ruins people's arguments that Scottish teams don't contribute to the hk

RDW_Scotland wrote:Sounds like jimpy wants a competition with just English and French teams - goof luck with that!

I know we can't dine out on the semi final forever, but it kind of ruins people's arguments that Scottish teams don't contribute to the hk

Oh they certainly contribute old chap, to the other teams' pool points...

Jimpy I agree. Sale do have some quality players but if they aren't firing on all cylinders....

It's difficult to gauge whether its the coach or players sometimes.

Cipriani happened to have a good game. On his day we all know what he can do in attack.

Consistency is something many sides lack.

TJ who would you say have realistic chances?

IMO Clermont,Toulouse and Toulon will fancy they can do it.

Ulster and Leinster from Ireland with Munster as an outside bet.

Quins probably have the best chance from England. If Saints and Saracens can traverse their pools they will feel that they can do it. Leicester have an uphill battle now but you never know.

That's 10 sides IMO.

Jimpy wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Sounds like jimpy wants a competition with just English and French teams - goof luck with that!

I know we can't dine out on the semi final forever, but it kind of ruins people's arguments that Scottish teams don't contribute to the hk

Oh they certainly contribute old chap, to the other teams' pool points...

No feeding the troll now, lads.

Okay, it IS a bit of a troll, but I consider that I make a valid point, borne from demonstrably consistent weakness by Scottish and Italian sides in the HC.

So you've dropped the same claim about the Welsh then?? That was quick.

RDW_Scotland wrote:So you've dropped the same claim about the Welsh then?? That was quick.

Not really, they're only marginally better, but there weren't any Welsh daft enough to argue a lost cause..

Jimpy wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:So you've dropped the same claim about the Welsh then?? That was quick.

Not really, they're only marginally better, but there weren't any Welsh daft enough to argue a lost cause..

You've lost me now?

What lost cause exactly are we arguing? You're saying Scottish and Italian teams shouldn't be in the Heineken cup, we're saying they are....where's the lost cause?

They're demonstrably and consistently below a standard that I would consider to be worthy of HC inclusion. I put it to you that arguing that this isn't the case is a lost cause.

Even though a Scottish team progressed Further than an English team last year?

Let's look at the past 5 years:

Winner Runner up
Munster Toulouse
Leinster Tigers
Toulouse Biarritz
Leinster Saints
Leinster Ulster

Winners Leinster 3, Munster 1, Toulouse 1

So in 5 years only 7 different teams have made it to a Heineken final (out of 10 finalists), and only 3 teams have actually won it.

That's a lot of teams who aren't 'contributing' when you consider there's 24 teams each year, probably the equivalent of over 30 clubs who have played in it in 5 years.

Or to put it another way, last season Edinburgh and Glasgow both had English teams in their HC groups, and both finished higher than their English counterparts in those groups.

Until the HC ceases to be a "European" competition, and simply decides to constitute itself of the best teams in Europe each season (which will require an equitable qualifying process between all eligible sides each summer), then there will always be cries of good sides missing out.

There's absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the Dragons, Wasps and London Irish are better teams than Zebre, and going on this seasons form, Edinburgh as well. But it's a "European" competition, with representation coming from the major European rugby countries. Take out the Italian and Scottish sides (and presumably the Welsh ones as well given their performances over the last decade) and you need to call it something different. The Anglo-French-Irish rugby tournament. I'm sure it'll be at least half as successful and enjoyable as the current format.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Even though a Scottish team progressed Further than an English team last year?

Once... ever.

Do the percentages.


So saying the Scottish 'demonstrably and consistently' fall below the standard required, presumes that there should be consistent Scottish involvement into the play-off stages if they were consistently at the required level? At least one Scottish side should be more often in contention at the quarter final stages to prove worthy?

To say that you'd also have to say that the same principle should hold true for the other nations involved. France should see 50% of its sides through regularly, England should see 50% of its side through, Ireland, Wales and Italy should expect to see 50% of its sides through to the quarters if they were consistently worthy of the standard required. But then of course the maths collapses as there are only 8 places available!

Number of entries per nation will always see more of one nation than another at the play-off stages of a HEC - and no, that won't be exclusively based on ability, that'll be based on pure statistics.

If 12 French and English sides take part in a 24 side competition then there will on average always be a sprinkling of English and/or French in the closing stages. But you can't deduce all-over quality of the entire French and English contingents based on the yearly presence of some of them at the business end of the HEC. All you can say is that on a purely statistical basis their starting numbers also heavily suggests that they will have some involvement in the closing stages.

Oh God, Jimpy is going to struggle with that.

Most sensible post I've seen in a long time.

Oh, I mean Q.E.D

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Well thats the pot calling the kettle black isn't it?

You're doing a really good job of countering numerous people's arguments...

funnyExiledScot wrote:Oh God, Jimpy is going to struggle with that.

Not really, Edinburgh and Glasgow are still rubbish... however you cut it.

RDW_Scotland wrote:You're doing a really good job of countering numerous people's arguments...

Again, 'hello pot, this is kettle, send colour state, over'....

Jimpy wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Oh God, Jimpy is going to struggle with that.

Not really, Edinburgh and Glasgow are still rubbish... however you cut it.

Brilliant.

Jimpy wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:You're doing a really good job of countering numerous people's arguments...

Again, 'hello pot, this is kettle, send colour state, over'....

Again I'm confused....I'm given logical counter argument to your arguments, you're just resorting to basically saying "well your team is a load of poopie"

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:You're doing a really good job of countering numerous people's arguments...

Again, 'hello pot, this is kettle, send colour state, over'....

Again I'm confused....I'm given logical counter argument to your arguments, you're just resorting to basically saying "well your team is a load of poopie"

I don't know RDW, we could simplify the RWC a lot if we get rid of all the poopie teams, and just including NZ and anyone who's beaten them in the last 2 RWC cycles. And an RWC of just NZ, Aus, SA and France won't take too long to play either

Leinster should rightfully take the place of France there as the next best side Europe has to the All Blacks

Maybe we could get rid of individuals within a team that play poorly, as we can not possible have players with different abilities - as only the best are allowed to play.

Jimpy wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:You're doing a really good job of countering numerous people's arguments...

Again, 'hello pot, this is kettle, send colour state, over'....

Just leave him gents. Nice to have it reiterated every so often that one cannot polish a turd.

SecretFly wrote:Leinster should rightfully take the place of France there as the next best side Europe has to the All Blacks

A good point. Alternately dumping the Kings, Rebels and Force from Super Rugby and adding Leinster, Clermont, Ulster and Toulouse would make a good World Club comp

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Leinster should rightfully take the place of France there as the next best side Europe has to the All Blacks

A good point. Alternately dumping the Kings, Rebels and Force from Super Rugby and adding Leinster, Clermont, Ulster and Toulouse would make a good World Club comp

HC top 4 vs. S15 top 4.

No really, i'd pay subscription monies to see that. I think you're onto something. WUMing and bickering can lead to really good ideas! whodda thunk!

It's a giggle

"My dad could beat up your dad"

That's what Jimpy is resorting to!

Do they have this arguement in relation tot he football champions league? Coz Liverpool ar enot getting to play in it, we better make "FC little country" drop out coz they clearly are not as good as Liverpool!!!

I really hope the English and French do leave the HC. And when they come knocking, begging to be let back in, we can all tell them to beat it as we've already given thier spots to the Spanish, Georgian, Romanian, Russian, Portugese and anyone else who wants to play instead!