Rise of the Crude Boxer

Good Morning folks

I have noticed in recent years - the increased frequency of sluggers and crude boxers.

I guess boxing has always had these styles of fighters - but more and more seem to be coming through. I may be wrong but it seems that way.

The funny thing is that these boxers seems to be winning! I would have thought that a slick boxer with sound skills and tactics would have no chance for someone who is a slugger by nature but also good at closing down distance.

Giovani Segura beat a superb boxer in Ivan Calderon (twice). Margarito stopped a prime Miguel Cotto. Maidana almost stopped Khan and beat Morales, all using these pressure tactics.

It seems to me that either some boxers do not have the savvy to stay away for most of the fight and end up getting caught, or just do not know how to deal with a pressure fighter.

What are your thoughts on the above and what other boxers have had similar success despite not being technically proficient.

Thanks for reading!

Have a good day all

Cheers
Dazstarr

Morning, Daz.

Nice, interesting article to start the day.

There's an old adage in boxing which decrees that ' swarmers beat boxers beat sluggers beat swarmers, ' and while no such adage is ever completely true there are numerous examples to back up the idea.

Ali, for example, had trouble with Frazier, ( swarmer, ) who was annihilated by Foreman, ( slugger, ) who lost to Ali, ( boxer. )

Hard to say whether or not there is an INCREASE in swarmers these days, since right back to the early 20th. century there were some great ones - Dempsey and Greb, for example - but I always enjoy a scrap between two fighters of conflicting styles.

I dont neccessarily agree. There will usually be more crude boxers than slick ones because the skills needed to be slick are far greater.

But in each division I cant think of them having particularly more success. Katsidas generally gets ripped apart by skillful boxers. Hatton got demolished, Abraham got outboxed by Dirrell, Diaz stopped by Marquez, Haye and the Klitschko have bee demolishing their cruder contempories etc

Plenty of examples of the slicker boxers doing well.

Quality pressure fighters will always be a force but I dont see any real discernable pattern emerging.

Morning Windy

Thats very interesting - I never really put swarmers and sluggers in different style categories. I attributed swarmers as more of an add on to exisiting techniques if that makes sense.

Thanks for clarifying! Same as you Windy - i love seeing how different styles break different fighters down.

Cheers!

Don't see any real pattern

Boxing has always had it's fair share of guys who winged them in. Chacon, Chavez etc you could probably class as that - but there was generally a method to the madness - hence why they ascended to the top (or near) of their sport.

It may have never been pretty, but it was damn effective. As they say in golf, there's no pictures on the scorecard.

For every Maidana there's a Khan, Bradley, Alexander. For every Froch there's a Bute, Ward, Dirrell.

I can't think of many divisions that are ruled by crude sluggers to be fair, Segura probably being the highest profiled.

Hi Manos

Some great examples there on the contrary.

Hatton also beat some good boxers like Kosta via pressure fighting - there might be something to say about KT not being in his prime there though. Katsidis was never going to reach the top with his style of fighting and defensive deficiencies although a good win against Mitchell for him.

I think the prime target in my article is Marcos Maidana who seems to struggle many top tier fighters.

How do you think his particular style would have gone down say 20/30 years ago? Would he have been exposed badly? Has his style only had the longevity it has due to a depleted talent pool?

coxy0001 wrote:Don't see any real pattern

Boxing has always had it's fair share of guys who winged them in. Chacon, Chavez etc you could probably class as that - but there was generally a method to the madness - hence why they ascended to the top (or near) of their sport.

It may have never been pretty, but it was damn effective. As they say in golf, there's no pictures on the scorecard.

For every Maidana there's a Khan, Bradley, Alexander. For every Froch there's a Bute, Ward, Dirrell.

I can't think of many divisions that are ruled by crude sluggers to be fair, Segura probably being the highest profiled.

Good post Coxy! Particularly the first couple of points you make.

Nice article here about the swarmer / slugger / boxer triangle, Daz :

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/styles.html

"As they say in golf, there's no pictures on the scorecard."

Love it, never heard that one.

HumanWindmill wrote:Nice article here about the swarmer / slugger / boxer triangle, Daz :

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/styles.html

Excellent - thanks Windy!

Scottrf wrote:"As they say in golf, there's no pictures on the scorecard."

Love it, never heard that one.

It's a cracker isnt it! I will be stealing that one Coxy!

Think there's always been and always will be a balance of the two. For the fights you mention in recent years there's always alternatives where boxers have beaten brawlers/swarmers, mayweather beat hatton, Marquez beat Diaz, just last weekend Guerrero outclassed katsidas. If I had time there would be tons more to put on the list.

Dazstarr wrote:Hi Manos

Some great examples there on the contrary.

Hatton also beat some good boxers like Kosta via pressure fighting - there might be something to say about KT not being in his prime there though. Katsidis was never going to reach the top with his style of fighting and defensive deficiencies although a good win against Mitchell for him.

I think the prime target in my article is Marcos Maidana who seems to struggle many top tier fighters.

How do you think his particular style would have gone down say 20/30 years ago? Would he have been exposed badly? Has his style only had the longevity it has due to a depleted talent pool?

Maidana is an average fighter so I dont think he makes much of an impact in virtually any era. But guys like Duran, Julio Cesar Chavez, Marciano and countless others have shown that the more direct pressure approach can overcome the slicker skills. I wouldnt neccessarily call them crude per se, but their style was certainly more direct than say the Leonards, Whitakers, Charles etc that they often faced.

I think you can give many examples for and against but in terms of today I dont see that anything has changed drastically. Overall I think its a slightly weaker era in terms of overall talent but I wouldnt say one particular style is having more effect. The only exception might be the heavyweight division where the "breed em big" approach now seems to have overtaken the more traditional focus on speed and skills.

You're welcome, Daz.

Dazstarr wrote:

Scottrf wrote:"As they say in golf, there's no pictures on the scorecard."

Love it, never heard that one.

It's a cracker isnt it! I will be stealing that one Coxy!

It did apply to most of my golfing career as i explored various parts of a course no-one knew existed!

Can be applied quite nicely to boxing as well i guess, win 'n win ugly etc

Cheers SBS

Didnt really look at it that way. Probably because the headline grabbers have been led by sluggers and swarmers recently.

coxy0001 wrote:

Dazstarr wrote:

Scottrf wrote:"As they say in golf, there's no pictures on the scorecard."

Love it, never heard that one.

It's a cracker isnt it! I will be stealing that one Coxy!

It did apply to most of my golfing career as i explored various parts of a course no-one knew existed!

Can be applied quite nicely to boxing as well i guess, win 'n win ugly etc

Crafty!!

HumanWindmill wrote:Nice article here about the swarmer / slugger / boxer triangle, Daz :

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/styles.html

TRUSS would love that one to back up his theory that Duran lost to every technician he faced.

So he would, Scott, and I shouldn't be surprised if he were to pop in to remind us.

Rolled like a drunk, etc. Great stuff.

HumanWindmill wrote:So he would, Scott, and I shouldn't be surprised if he were to pop in to remind us.

Rolled like a drunk, etc. Great stuff.

Would have to go with the general consensus and say that, to me, crude boxers aren't really any more dominant today than they have been in past generations. That said, it's a cracking article Daz, and with the likes of Froch (although he's a better technician than some people give him credit for), Hatton, Segura, Margarito and so on finding such success in recent years, you do make some good points.

I think in general though, most would agree that at the very highest level, more often than not, the likes of those fighters have tended to come unstuck a little. It's interesting that Windy brought up the 'swarmer-boxer-slugger' triangle, which in general does hold a fair amount of water. It's only my opinion, but I believe that crude sluggers may seem to be having more success in recent times, despite the fact that the swarmer type fighter (in the true, proper sense of the word) is something of a dying breed, which upsets the balance of things somewhat.

Just my contention, mind you. Interesting article, Daz, and some quality points raised.

Thanks Chris. I always try and make original articles.

Thanks for your insights. Windy's article link was a corker. Saved that for some light bed time reading!

At the moment the Mexican's seems to be holding most of the swarming fighters. Always makes a great fight to watch at a higher level - just to see if and when they unravel.

Cheers

Do you think the decline of the swarmer can be partially attributed to the physical demands of making weight limits nowadays leading to a more energy conserving style?

Bob wrote:Do you think the decline of the swarmer can be partially attributed to the physical demands of making weight limits nowadays leading to a more energy conserving style?

Makes sense, to me.

Bob wrote:Do you think the decline of the swarmer can be partially attributed to the physical demands of making weight limits nowadays leading to a more energy conserving style?

Not really. For one, I'm not sure there is a decline. Secondly, Margarito is one of the biggest cutters and also breaks compubox stats.

I dont think there has been much of a decline in the swarmers.

Somebody like Williams can bounce between 3/4 divisions and still produce a huge output regardless of weight class.

manos de piedra wrote:I dont think there has been much of a decline in the swarmers.

Somebody like Williams can bounce between 3/4 divisions and still produce a huge output regardless of weight class.

But Williams faded badly down the line against Marg and was outboxed over 12 by Quintana, both at welter. These were the only times he fought twelve rounds at that weight.

I'm more referring to quality swarmers who can fight for twelve rounds. Marg may be an exception rather than a rule.

Bob wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:I dont think there has been much of a decline in the swarmers.

Somebody like Williams can bounce between 3/4 divisions and still produce a huge output regardless of weight class.

But Williams faded badly down the line against Marg and was outboxed over 12 by Quintana, both at welter. These were the only times he fought twelve rounds at that weight.

I'm more referring to quality swarmers who can fight for twelve rounds. Marg may be an exception rather than a rule.

I think Williams can fight for 12 rounds at welter without too much difficulty. Someone like Margarito though could just do it better. Lots of fighters have faded doen the stretch against Margaritos wear em down style.

Somebody like Katsidas is an example of a guy that just keeps going relentlessly although hes probably short of world class quality.

I think that styles tend to be in place early on in a fighters career rather than adapted to weight making. If a guy is a swarmer when hes 15/16 yrs old then thats usually go to be the case when he turns pro.

Its probably easier to just move up a weight rather than try and develop a different style.

A different point may be that there is too much emphasis put on weight cutting now. It can work brilliantly for someone like Hatton who could come in huge at LWW but equally guys like Ortiz who can comfortambly weigh 160 on fight night should not really be draining themselves down to 140.

Bob wrote:Do you think the decline of the swarmer can be partially attributed to the physical demands of making weight limits nowadays leading to a more energy conserving style?

Good question Bob. I think out of the three main styles discussed in this thread, the swarmer must be the most energy consuming, then slugger and then boxer.

Perhaps it has taken its toll - this is something very non-tangible so would be difficult to respond with a clear answer. I guess if that was the case we would have seen swarmers gassing badly during the mid to late rounds.

I havent seen much evidence of this so im not the best placed person to respond. Very interested in any responses to this question.

Cheers Bob

on the flip side of the coin would swarming tactics be more successfull in the later part of fights- maybe balancing the energy expenditure out a little.

on the flip side of the coin would swarming tactics be more successfull in the later part of fights- maybe balancing the energy expenditure out a little.