Club rugby in wales on the verge of extinction?

Please don't think this is a knee jerk reaction for a poor showing this weekend (although once again it highlights my points)

I have talked about a professional 12 team prem for some time now, I have not always felt this way and was on board with regions initially despite the points made against it making sense.

It has been near 10 years now since it's inception and I think we were told to wait this amount of time for a HC success, it has not come. From the top of my head 2 semi finals and an Amlin win is as good as it's got for the regions. Not bad, but they have come to a team packed with internationals, the Blues side that reached a semi and won the Amlin had the likes of Gethin Jenkins, Rhys Thomas (int at the time?) Jones, Davies, Williams, Rush, Rees (int at time) Roberts, Laulala, Blair, and 1/2p. 8 of these players no longer with the blues, Jenkins, Thomas, Laulala, and Rees lured away. Not to mention the coach who masterminded it.

Now don't get me wrong not all was rosey 3/4 years ago, but it was the culmination of the inception of the regions that brought about this semi success, a lot of the clubs best players being not from Cardiff but from the feeder clubs.

Today a lot of the talent inherited (key word) by the regions is either retiring or moving away to earn much more, and we are left with 4 regions with massive weaknesses, IE Blues/Scarlets tight 5, Ospreys backline/back 3, Dragons first team squad etc etc...

IMO this is how we are going to go for the future, regions producing a small core of talented players every few seasons but unable to produce enough to lift the depth of club and international rugby in this country.

The more the clubs struggle the less the best players will want to stay, and I know this could be part of the argument against a prof prem but the prem will offer a few things that money alone won't intrugue those players,

History
Rivalry
Sense of pride
A sense of ownership
tradition

All of these are common amongst Irish players within the provinces, it isn't the tax rebate at the end of their careers that stop the best irish players leaving, they could come back for that, and the Ulster players don't get it either.

IMO if the WRU don't do a full reverse and get a prof prem up on it's feet it's just a matter of time before we lose the club game alltogether, and I can foresee a region or 2 wanting to play in the Aviva at some point down the line!

Interesting blues man....I have just written an article with a different twist. Personally I dont believe having 12 teams would be sustainable. Even with the regions gone.

The money isnt there at the moment and neither will be investment from private sources. A recent study by the western mail (i know what your thinking) showed that actually viewing numbers have been far better under regional rugby than club rugby so there will be a lack of money again.

We have to condense our welsh internationals further, i.e. between three teams.

Keep a fourth as a developement region whereby all four currently existing regions can give their youngsters the exposure.

I just commented on yours too

Money isn't there at present, but we have 4 guys willing now, it wouldn't be that difficult to get a few others, the smaller wage caps and sustainability could mean the WRU add a development side or so, and maybe a combined effort from areas such as Ponty who all want a prof team near them!!

It wouldn't be that difficult, some clubs would have to be on a shoe string to start but the natural order of competition would kick in and clubs would appear with the necesary infrastructure to compete. We may have to start with 4 or so big boys.

Haha we are going to be jumping back and forth between threads! But the problem with this idea would be the fact that we lose our already identified welsh internationals current at our regions.

I think we had to decide 10 years ago with which way we wanted to go. We went with the regions but the sustainability of 5 was quickle reduced to 4. And it seems reducing it to 3 might be the way forward.

Its a tricky one... but im sick of seeing players like; sweeney, sidoli, phil john etc being paid and being crap. Same goes with players like fussel.

Thats my point, we will never have the money to compete with the English and French, so why not offer the players something the English and French can't!!!!!!!!!

Fussel isn't that far from the welsh squad, that highlights how low our depth of quality realy is, we need to increase the number of players playing professional rugby.

As weve seen crowds arent there, and I am willing to bet my life that crowds will be very similar if not better if we returned to the club game.

Bluesman, its been proven they werent better.

Possibly you are right. We will see better attendences intially. But when the rugby on show is of lesser quality than regional rugby, you watch the punters stop flowing through the gates.

They weren't better in an amateur era, and without the infrastructure, advertising budgets, and knowledge that comes from research techniques etc...

Comparing the prem 10 years ago and today is like comparing a player in the amateur era to todays level, it's not on an even standing because of development of the game!!

You may be right regarding crowds, maybe a few bumpers initially the tailing off if the quality drops, but quality is a qualititative word, for every poor performance of a club there will be a good one to that clubs opposition, so a lot more welsh fans will see winning rugby week in week out. Then as the clubs get more competitive week in week out they will get more competitive in europe.

IMO competitiveness breeds competitiveness.

If it happened tomorrow, and like you say we attracted another 8 money men (actually it would have to be more because currently we only have 2 money men, and Cuddy is on the verge of walking by the sounds of it), then it may initially be great. Then, as seen elsewhere in leagues with big backers, they get annoyed at the lack of progress and look for short term gains. They buy in big name stars, and before you know it we're bemoaning the lack of opportunities for local players. The only way 12 teams would be good for Wales is if the WRU bank rolled it and had full control (who would have said that 10 years ago!). In the hands of money men you're talking business, and business means results, sometimes at the detriment of sport development. The club game and national game are often at loggerheads; no more so than when in the hands of benefactors who need to balance the books, IMO.

The WRU can't afford 12 teams, so therefore if we went back we'd have a 12 team free for all which wouldn't help anyone.

I think the WRU should reduce funding to the Welsh Prem even more and put it towards the regions.

Having a good Welsh Prem, is the same as England having a good championship, I'd say the Difference split between Prem and Championship is a lot more toward Prem, than the WRU's split between Regions and Welsh Prem.

If the RFU had to concentrate on one, it would be the Prem, the WRU has reached the point that it has to concentrate on one and thats the Regions, they can't keep both at the Level they want and will have to decide which one shall drop a level.

Bring back the Clubs.

The Regions don't work.

thebluesmancometh wrote:it isn't the tax rebate at the end of their careers that stop the best irish players leaving, they could come back for that, and the Ulster players don't get it either.

They get tax relief on the best 10 years of service. That equates to a huge sum of cash, but they need to actually play 10 years to get it and they can choose their best 10 years so that will obviously be the best paid 10 years.

PhilBB wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:it isn't the tax rebate at the end of their careers that stop the best irish players leaving, they could come back for that, and the Ulster players don't get it either.

They get tax relief on the best 10 years of service. That equates to a huge sum of cash, but they need to actually play 10 years to get it and they can choose their best 10 years so that will obviously be the best paid 10 years.

Scotland might be able to offer similar post 2014 vote. Wales hopefully not long after.

Griff wrote:If it happened tomorrow, and like you say we attracted another 8 money men (actually it would have to be more because currently we only have 2 money men, and Cuddy is on the verge of walking by the sounds of it), then it may initially be great. Then, as seen elsewhere in leagues with big backers, they get annoyed at the lack of progress and look for short term gains. They buy in big name stars, and before you know it we're bemoaning the lack of opportunities for local players. The only way 12 teams would be good for Wales is if the WRU bank rolled it and had full control (who would have said that 10 years ago!). In the hands of money men you're talking business, and business means results, sometimes at the detriment of sport development. The club game and national game are often at loggerheads; no more so than when in the hands of benefactors who need to balance the books, IMO.

The WRU can't afford 12 teams, so therefore if we went back we'd have a 12 team free for all which wouldn't help anyone.

12 teams is completely financially unaffordable and daft from a rugby point of view as there isn't enough talent for 12 teams.

What Welsh rugby needs is a change in how the money is reinvested. That's all. Oh, and a decent league to play in - a league which is popular with sponsors and the paying public.

HERSH wrote:Bring back the Clubs.

The Regions don't work.

What is the yardstick used to measure?

The regions are doing well in the Celtic League. Certainly as well as the old clubs ever did in the Anglo Welsh competitions.

No Welsh club ever won the European Cup so thats no real difference that the regions haven't done so.

They clubs produced some very good players for the national team - again no change, Wales national team has probably improved since introducing regions.

I know that the Welsh clubs often did well against the touring Southern Hemisphere nations. Again no difference the Aussies came over and played Ospreys in a mid week test. Ospreys won.

I dont see that there has been all that many ill effects on the rugby field. There may well be financial worries and worries about attendances but in rugby terms whats the issue?

Its a moot debate.

The regions are here to stay.

If people spend as much time supporting them as they do debating about them then they would have the best support in Europe.

Bit like us Irish with our national team

red_stag wrote:If people spend as much time supporting them as they do debating about them then they would have the best support in Europe.

Bit like us Irish with our national team

Ha ha ha

Its not the people its a minority who don't see the positives and would argue against whatever we were doing regardless of what we do, always harking back to a past they thought was better than it really was.

I have been a fan of Welsh rugby for nearly 60 years now, I have seen all sorts come and go. The best thing to happen to Welsh rugby was the change to regionalisation as a result of the acceptance of professionalism and all it brings.

If we hadn't of made these changes, if the WRU hadn't of made so many good decisions in the last decade we would still be as we were in the 1990's, a former great now languishing at the bottom of the upper tiers.

maestegmafia wrote: if the WRU hadn't of made so many good decisions in the last decade

What kind of decisions are you thinking of?

PhilBB wrote:

maestegmafia wrote: if the WRU hadn't of made so many good decisions in the last decade

What kind of decisions are you thinking of?

Investment in grass roots rugby, college rugby, trying to organise a better north wales rugby, hiring a good coach and team, better fitness levels set as a mandate, making the elite of Welsh rugby a tougher competition. Basically not being scared to tear up the old book and write a new one.

Admittedly we have stolen nearly everything we have in our current system top to bottom from new zealand. But they arent bad role models, similar sized country, rugby obsessives etc etc etc...

Oh and they really have got the hang of playing too.

maestegmafia wrote:Investment in grass roots rugby, college rugby, trying to organise a better north wales rugby, hiring a good coach and team, better fitness levels set as a mandate, making the elite of Welsh rugby a tougher competition. Basically not being scared to tear up the old book and write a new one.

Admittedly we have stolen nearly everything we have in our current system top to bottom from new zealand. But they arent bad role models, similar sized country, rugby obsessives etc etc etc...

Oh and they really have got the hang of playing too.

I'm not sure much of that is down to the WRU, other than getting Gatland on board.

Their investment record in the grass roots of the game hasn't been great and their reluctance to pay a fair price for access to the players has now seen the Elite end of the game fairly easy to gain a contract in.

They just announced a further £3.5m a week or two ago, rugby below regional level is at the best it has been for nearly forty years.

www.wru.co.uk


The Welsh Rugby Union has revealed details of an immediate £900,000 cash sum that has been allocated to spend on community rugby as part of a move to further enhance and highlight the importance the Union places on the grassroots game.

This is part of an extra £3.5 million that was recently announced to help improve rugby both on and off the field. Clubs have now been informed how they will directly benefit from this new money.

In order to aid the efforts of clubs to attract new players, coaches and referees to the game, £500,000 has been committed to a WRU Club Facilities Grant which clubs can apply for and an extra £200,000 one-off fund will be split between clubs to reward recruitment initiatives.

Club Facilities Grants ranging from £2,500 to £50,000 will be available to clubs which put forward plans for development programmes and initiatives approved by the WRU. A percentage of the grants will be awarded to individual club and community-based initiatives, with an element of match funding needed, while the more substantial amounts will go to joint bids or initiatives which will benefit the wider area.

The recruitment grant aid will help clubs, amongst other things, to form additional teams and will be linked to the Join The Beat campaign - a WRU project aimed at helping clubs recruit more players, coaches, administrators and volunteers.

Core grants for clubs will remain unchanged for the coming season but the WRU Board has unanimously backed the findings of a Working Party which concluded that future investment into the community game will concentrate solely on rugby investment, recruitment investment and retention investment. The details of the future core funding of the community game will be developed further in due course following the completion of the 2012 WRU Census.

In addition to the facilities and recruitment grants, £200 000 has been earmarked to further develop Schools and Colleges rugby with further spending taking the total monies being pumped into the grassroots game totalling over £900 000.

This commitment to the growth of the community game comes at a time when the elite game is celebrating Grand Slam success and a semi-final placing at the last Rugby World Cup.

The Millennium Stadium is also boosting its global status with Olympic Games soccer arriving this summer and Rugby World Cup 2015 games scheduled to be held there as well.

The Wales Under 20 side has just returned from South Africa where they finished in third place and became the first nation to defeat the All Blacks in a Junior World Championship.

WRU Group Chief Executive, Roger Lewis, said: "I am delighted to announce these new financial initiatives for club rugby in Wales.

"The community game underpins everything we do and it is vital we help our member clubs develop in ways which will attract more people to get involved in rugby.

"We want to deliver participation levels in rugby which will maintain the game as the national sport of Wales.

"These are challenging economic times so I am pleased to be able to reassure our member clubs that the WRU is achieving the financial results which allow us to commit money where it is most needed."

WRU Head of Rugby, Joe Lydon, said: "A lot of hard work has gone into reviewing the way the community game is funded and we believe we have developed a formula which will benefit the Welsh game for years to come.

"We have to reward the better clubs by investing in their success and helping them to attract more people into the game.

"We need more players, coaches, match officials, first aiders, administrators and supporters and the clubs have a duty to create the sort of environments people want to belong to.

"If our clubs want to remain the hubs of our communities they have to be modern and progressive organisations and we will do all we can to help them maintain and develop accordingly."

Clubs can apply for grants via the MyWRU intranet system and the WRU website from the end of the month.

Lovely headline, but check out the detail and timeframe for the expenditure.

And clubs are losing teams all over the place.

I agree with Maesteg,

Not so long ago that WRU were given an award by the IRB for their outstanding work.

I think the way they have managed the construction and use of the Millennium Stadium has been simply amazing.

Scotland tried the same thing with a rebuilding of the stadium at Murrayfield but the contrast has been amazing. It has backfired completely.

As Maes says it's a moot point as the regions ain't going anywhere.

Also if the point is that the regions aren't performing up to scratch and 2 HEC Semi finals and an Amlin isn't a good enough return (I agree) because there's not enough strength in depth/player pool, we can't afford to keep our best players and your worried about crowd numbers and sustainability. Then I'm not sure how tripling the number of teams/costs while spreading the number of players even thinner - or more likely keeping most of the best players in the 'big' teams like Cardiff and Swansea while they play teams filled with the journeymen players and youngsters currently playing in the Prem now. Surely this will make matters much worse by weakening competition, worsening the financial situation (but needing 8 or more money men, rather than 2) increasing costs and spreading support thinner (even though support now seems to be higher than at most recent points, granted before was semi-pro, but that could be what we'd go back to).

All this would surely mean less money to the academies as well and less TV money as we'd be cutting off the Irish, Scottish and Italian markets.

PhilBB - teams were going to the wall left right and centre before the WRU changed things, the WRU itself was on the verge of going under with crippling debts, and on field things were bleak for the national team with the occassional victory over England and a single victory over SA the only things to brag about.

We now have the highest amount of grass roots funding, much more emphasis on North Wales (with plans on increasing it - which is needed), a much more streamlined and competitive Welsh Prem, supporter numbers up on pre-regionalisation and regional teams going closer to sustainability.

spot on smirnoff, I honestly cant believe people are calling for a return to club rugby

GavinDragon wrote:spot on smirnoff, I honestly cant believe people are calling for a return to club rugby

Agree with that...

Well nice to see a number of you beat me to it. bluesman you've aired your thoughts on the Premiership, now you have your answers from the Welsh public it may be time to let go of it.

History
Rivalry
Sense of pride
A sense of ownership
tradition

So we'd go back to some intense rivalries, with the only full gates coming in from the main 4 (NEwport, Cardiff, Swansea, Llanelli), perform in SOME of the derbies and still play poorly in Europe? If you want all that then go and watch your amateur club down the road. This is the professional era and unfortunately, money talks.

All of these are common amongst Irish players within the provinces, it isn't the tax rebate at the end of their careers that stop the best irish players leaving, they could come back for that, and the Ulster players don't get it either.

They're very loyal to their provinces and Ireland true. You don't have many examples to go by in the pro era for Irish players. Nobody seems to know what it was like before this. I would put it mostly down to the tax rebate thing though. English and French rarely play overseas (unless it's in the opposing country) because the money is there. In regards to the Ulster point does that count for some of the player born inside Northern Ireland? (as Ulster goes beyond that border).

IMO if the WRU don't do a full reverse and get a prof prem up on it's feet it's just a matter of time before we lose the club game alltogether, and I can foresee a region or 2 wanting to play in the Aviva at some point down the line!

That's just total rubbish.

IMO the solution is to gradually dual(central) contract the top players over the years. Roberts and Lydiate will most likely be the first 2. Secondly, the WRU take ownership of the Premiership clubs and put in place some premiership youth teams which in turn feed the premiership and the regional academies. The players getting picked up via the pathways and rugby festivals. Not to sure where a schools system would fit in with this. Again this happens gradually as the player base increases over the years. This is a more efficient feeder system. 12 pro clubs is ridiculous and impossible.

red_stag wrote:I agree with Maesteg,

Not so long ago that WRU were given an award by the IRB for their outstanding work.

I think the way they have managed the construction and use of the Millennium Stadium has been simply amazing.

Scotland tried the same thing with a rebuilding of the stadium at Murrayfield but the contrast has been amazing. It has backfired completely.

Not sure any of the current regime were around when the Millennium was planned and built. It is a magnificent rugby venue, of course.

The WRU can pat themselves on the back for hiring Gatland and Edwards. Beyond that, they're doing a neat & tidy job of administrating the paperwork.

Income can be forecast with a much greater degree of accuracy than in a normal commercial business, so there's not much to do in that respect - and Barclays continue to call the shots on how they spend it, so all the big decisions are made for them. They move a few hundred thousand around here and there and make some references to 'grassroots'.

Having said that, maybe stable, unadventurous administration is what was needed after all the years of chaos.

In future, once the obsession with reducing the bank loan is resolved and some money is freed up for investment, I think that the current structure of;

Test team
Pro teams (which is a much more forward thinking and positive name than the dreaded 'rheejuns')
Semi pro/clubs

is one we could be optimistic about.

Casartelli wrote:

red_stag wrote:I agree with Maesteg,

Not so long ago that WRU were given an award by the IRB for their outstanding work.

I think the way they have managed the construction and use of the Millennium Stadium has been simply amazing.

Scotland tried the same thing with a rebuilding of the stadium at Murrayfield but the contrast has been amazing. It has backfired completely.

Not sure any of the current regime were around when the Millennium was planned and built. It is a magnificent rugby venue, of course.

The WRU can pat themselves on the back for hiring Gatland and Edwards. Beyond that, they're doing a neat & tidy job of administrating the paperwork.

Income can be forecast with a much greater degree of accuracy than in a normal commercial business, so there's not much to do in that respect - and Barclays continue to call the shots on how they spend it, so all the big decisions are made for them. They move a few hundred thousand around here and there and make some references to 'grassroots'.

Having said that, maybe stable, unadventurous administration is what was needed after all the years of chaos.

In future, once the obsession with reducing the bank loan is resolved and some money is freed up for investment, I think that the current structure of;

Test team
Pro teams (which is a much more forward thinking and positive name than the dreaded 'rheejuns')
Semi pro/clubs

is one we could be optimistic about.

:facepalm:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Casartelli wrote:

red_stag wrote:I agree with Maesteg,

Not so long ago that WRU were given an award by the IRB for their outstanding work.

I think the way they have managed the construction and use of the Millennium Stadium has been simply amazing.

Scotland tried the same thing with a rebuilding of the stadium at Murrayfield but the contrast has been amazing. It has backfired completely.

Not sure any of the current regime were around when the Millennium was planned and built. It is a magnificent rugby venue, of course.

The WRU can pat themselves on the back for hiring Gatland and Edwards. Beyond that, they're doing a neat & tidy job of administrating the paperwork.

Income can be forecast with a much greater degree of accuracy than in a normal commercial business, so there's not much to do in that respect - and Barclays continue to call the shots on how they spend it, so all the big decisions are made for them. They move a few hundred thousand around here and there and make some references to 'grassroots'.

Having said that, maybe stable, unadventurous administration is what was needed after all the years of chaos.

In future, once the obsession with reducing the bank loan is resolved and some money is freed up for investment, I think that the current structure of;

Test team
Pro teams (which is a much more forward thinking and positive name than the dreaded 'rheejuns')
Semi pro/clubs

is one we could be optimistic about.

:facepalm:

An unusually eloquent response Smirnoff. I thank you.

My pleasure, I couldn't really be assed picking apart your post this early in the morning.

But worry not as soon as I've woken up I'll attempt a reply worthy of discussion (though it may be around 5pm the way I'm feeling...)

Smirnoffpriest wrote:My pleasure, I couldn't really be assed picking apart your post this early in the morning.

But worry not as soon as I've woken up I'll attempt a reply worthy of discussion (though it may be around 5pm the way I'm feeling...)

Cheers, facepalm mate (I'm not even sure what it means!) - hope you feel better later.

Just a few thoughts from an outsider... and apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick with the current set up!

First of all on the comment about Irish players staying in Ireland not being to do with the tax incentive but rather to do with the history, etc. Well, maybe, but aren't the Irish squad centrally contracted? I'm no expert on their set up but thought that was the case. If the WRU paid the full salaries of the entire Welsh squad, they would have absolute control over where they played. Isn't that worth a bit of thought? It would improve the regions if they could keep the top players that are slowly being bought up by the French, and help the WRU if they had greater control over player access.

If you did want to increase player loyalty, and make players want to stay with the regions surely the trick is to get them playing for the regions sooner? Rather than using the Welsh premiership as a proving ground for players to develop why not have regional A sides? Presumably they could either convince the other Rabo teams to run an A league for development, or join the premiership A league (which to be fair could do with a few more games). Maybe I've misunderstood the set up, but getting the players working with the regions sooner would perhaps give more loyalty and a greater desire to stay with them.

Big wrote:If the WRU paid the full salaries of the entire Welsh squad, they would have absolute control over where they played. Isn't that worth a bit of thought? It would improve the regions if they could keep the top players that are slowly being bought up by the French, and help the WRU if they had greater control over player access.

The problem with this is that it would also free up the WRU to 'move' players as they see fit to the regions that the WRU would most like to put them. This sort of thing has happened in the past unoffiically (Mike Phillips was advised to leave the Scarlets and join the Blues in order to improve his international hopes, and when Dwayne Peel left the Scarlets to join Sale he was encourgaged to join the Blues instead, in order to keep his international hopes alive), how long would it take before the WRU decided that Danny Lydiate would be better off giving the BLues a blindside option and playing in the HEC, or that Toby Faletau or Josh Navidi would sort out some of the Scarlets backrow issues, or that Morgan Stoddart or Andy Fenby would pack up the Ospreys weaker back three options?

Casartelli wrote:

red_stag wrote:I agree with Maesteg,

Not so long ago that WRU were given an award by the IRB for their outstanding work.

I think the way they have managed the construction and use of the Millennium Stadium has been simply amazing.

Scotland tried the same thing with a rebuilding of the stadium at Murrayfield but the contrast has been amazing. It has backfired completely.

Not sure any of the current regime were around when the Millennium was planned and built. It is a magnificent rugby venue, of course.

The WRU can pat themselves on the back for hiring Gatland and Edwards. Beyond that, they're doing a neat & tidy job of administrating the paperwork.

Income can be forecast with a much greater degree of accuracy than in a normal commercial business, so there's not much to do in that respect - and Barclays continue to call the shots on how they spend it, so all the big decisions are made for them. They move a few hundred thousand around here and there and make some references to 'grassroots'.

Having said that, maybe stable, unadventurous administration is what was needed after all the years of chaos.

In future, once the obsession with reducing the bank loan is resolved and some money is freed up for investment, I think that the current structure of;

Test team
Pro teams (which is a much more forward thinking and positive name than the dreaded 'rheejuns')
Semi pro/clubs

is one we could be optimistic about.

True the current regime wasn't involved in building/planning the Millennium Stadium, but they are responsible for clearing almost £90m of debt ahead of schedule, and of putting the MS to a lot of varied uses throughout the year to ensure it keeps generating income which can then be invested into rugby at all levels, from grass roots until regional. (note that the WRU paid are paying off the debt faster than originally set out, so Barclays aren't dictating how the WRU spends its own money).

Also not sure how clearing £60m (I think) of debt, changing the structure of the Prem and increasing investment in grass roots rugby to previously unheard of levels and investing multi million pounds into rugby at all levels, is merely a neat and tidy administrating job using a few hundred thousand pounds?

Also not sure how restructuring the WP, being in the middle of the biggest shake up of top tier rugby in Welsh rugby history (regionalisation) and imposing a salary cap can be seen as stable, unadventurous administration.

So basically once the debt is paid off you see the WRU increasing funding (which they are already doing) and following this you want the same structure in place but with the regions called pro-clubs instead?

It's hardly the most shocking change especially as they would more than likely need to act as regions anyway (ie representing all the clubs within their are of influence, Llandovery, Carmarthen Quins, Llanelli...)

If a customer doesn't comply with all the covenants in a commercial loan agreement then the bank will screw them over, regardless of the original plan. Barclays stuck a £5m fee on the WRU two years ago to be allowed to leave an expensive interest rate hedge that backfired when base rate hit record lows.

If WRU had any clout with the bank then rather than pay big chunks off the loan capital (interest charged at, say, 1.5%-2.00% at present) they could put that cash on a 12 month bond with the Principality (for example) at nearly 3%. Like it or not, the bank is calling the shots.

The WRU have confirmed there are unlikely to be any major changes during the "current phase of the 5 year plan framework" but I do think the term 'regional' is passed its sell-by now. Such a drab word with all the negative connotations of 10 years of crapness. Now there is a plan and a stable financial base, its time for the WRU to promote Welsh rugby as one entity. Not WRU vs 'regions' vs clubs etc. But 'The Welsh Team', 'The Pro Teams' and 'The Semi Pros' - all part of the same thing.

Just sounds better.

Casartelli wrote:If a customer doesn't comply with all the covenants in a commercial loan agreement then the bank will screw them over, regardless of the original plan. Barclays stuck a £5m fee on the WRU two years ago to be allowed to leave an expensive interest rate hedge that backfired when base rate hit record lows.

If WRU had any clout with the bank then rather than pay big chunks off the loan capital (interest charged at, say, 1.5%-2.00% at present) they could put that cash on a 12 month bond with the Principality (for example) at nearly 3%. Like it or not, the bank is calling the shots.

The WRU have confirmed there are unlikely to be any major changes during the "current phase of the 5 year plan framework" but I do think the term 'regional' is passed its sell-by now. Such a drab word with all the negative connotations of 10 years of crapness. Now there is a plan and a stable financial base, its time for the WRU to promote Welsh rugby as one entity. Not WRU vs 'regions' vs clubs etc. But 'The Welsh Team', 'The Pro Teams' and 'The Semi Pros' - all part of the same thing.

Just sounds better.

Until another ten years of crapness (as you put it) and then people will be moaning about the names then. Names are names, they have no real baring on anything.

You don't think that 'The Welsh Pro Teams' sounds great? Granted, I only thought of it this morning but 'rheejunal rhugby' just sounds so whiney nowadays (particularly when Jiffy says it).

The 'Pro Teams' gives it some oomph, a bit of hwyl, if you will. Like we're modern and progressive spartans, or something.

Cas - names are names, and to be honest the Scots have Pro Teams, and lets face it they have had a history of failure, so maybe Pro Teams are not the best names.

I'm also of the opinion if you have to say your 'professional' pretty often you ain't.

I think it will grow on you, Spidey. Give it a day or two?

GO PRO TEAMS!!!

Good to see your looking at instrumental changes in the infastructure of the game for positive ends...

(though at least you've tired of saying the Scarlets will be going bust every 6 months...)

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Good to see your looking at instrumental changes in the infastructure of the game for positive ends...

(though at least you've tired of saying the Scarlets will be going bust every 6 months...)

I don't believe I ever said that (although I may have in the heat of intellectual debate) - I just didn't think it was healthy for some to pretend that multi-million pound, interest free loans didn't exist and that everything will be okay 'as we're going to turn a profit next season'.

I'm all for a bit of optimism, but blind unquestioning faith in 'everything will work out okay' has been the attitude of too many for the last 10 years. An occasional light dose of reality is good for everyone.

Anyway, Roger has said the current set up is here for 5 years or so. So we should all embrace it.

And the term 'Pro Teams' would be a no-cost, big step towards drawing a line under petty superclub/region debates and getting the casual fans interested in one 'Welsh Rugby' brand. Few more through the turnstiles, as a small start maybe.

From little acorns etc. And nothing to lose, except the bland old 'regional rugby' millstone.

Is it fair to say:

Celtic League - done very well
National Team - done very well
Finances - done well

Winning the Heineken Cup = only blot on their record?

Cas - not being harsh here but your talking poopie. People who are not regular fans of rugby just call them 'teams' and would call tehm 'teams' whether the offiicial name were Pro Teams, Regions, Superclubs, Cas-Special-Sides or whatever. People who are not behind the regions are already so bitter and twisted that a change of name would not suffice, and a new kit, name, and venue (ideally the moaners own town), new players, and possibly coaches, would be required to win them over. And no disrespect, but I have a feeling you would still be at the head of the list of people slagging them off no matter the name.

red_stag wrote:Is it fair to say:

Celtic League - done very well
National Team - done very well
Finances - done well

Winning the Heineken Cup = only blot on their record?

Although considering we have half the teams entered into the competition than the French and Englsih I would say our record isn't so bad (but lets face it you can't compare the others to the irish at the momment in the HEC).

Casartelli wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Good to see your looking at instrumental changes in the infastructure of the game for positive ends...

(though at least you've tired of saying the Scarlets will be going bust every 6 months...)

I don't believe I ever said that (although I may have in the heat of intellectual debate) - I just didn't think it was healthy for some to pretend that multi-million pound, interest free loans didn't exist and that everything will be okay 'as we're going to turn a profit next season'.

I'm all for a bit of optimism, but blind unquestioning faith in 'everything will work out okay' has been the attitude of too many for the last 10 years. An occasional light dose of reality is good for everyone.

Anyway, Roger has said the current set up is here for 5 years or so. So we should all embrace it.

And the term 'Pro Teams' would be a no-cost, big step towards drawing a line under petty superclub/region debates and getting the casual fans interested in one 'Welsh Rugby' brand. Few more through the turnstiles, as a small start maybe.

From little acorns etc. And nothing to lose, except the bland old 'regional rugby' millstone.

On many times you've stated the Scarlets are going bust (despite what lots of people - fans, Welsh rugby supports, the CEO, Carmarthenshire Council, all the main holders of the debt, and others says) for the past few years at least. We're still here though and still moving towards sustainability.

Also surely changing the names from regions would only re stoke the fire under the Super Clubs debate, not to mention have little other effect (except possible a small initial buzz/disgruntlement). Brands have power through associations with success and the amount of marketing and campaigns done around them to help people/fans/customers associate with them. As such no matter how funky/cool a name sounds, it is just a name until some serious effort is put in to give that name meaning and positive associations.

But none of that matters, as surely if the regions are working then there's no need to change the name, and if the regions aren't working then surely it would be better to concentrate on why the regions aren't working rather than just change the name?

Although there is many conspiracy theories to the detriment of Welsh rugby below the debt busting International level, I really believe that the WRU have made huge steps to make a positive future in the game.

Living in Wales, which I very recently stopped doing, I have seen it everywhere from the grants to small local clubs to Rhondda valley schools initiatives, televising College rugby on s4c.

The hope is that the regions will be on a self sufficient path for the future, Scarlets and Ospreys may be the first to see the light, in the near future, aiming for good news by the end of the season. Dragons and Blues a little further behind.

People who are not behind the regions are already so bitter and twisted that a change of name would not suffice, and a new kit, name, and venue (ideally the moaners own town), new players, and possibly coaches, would be required to win them over.

SS,

I agree that the ones who are not behing Regions now never will be. I know people up in Ebbw who wouldn't even support the Dragons now if it was scrapped and changed completely but (and could on them) they still staunchly follow Ebbw every game home or away.

That said I do still think that we should just become the Gwent Dragons and drop the Newport totally.

Just a quick look at the Blues will prove not all is well, we have all heard from people who said they would never support the Blues while they played at CCS, yet now they are back at the Arms Park crowds have not significantly improved.

I think its the Britsih mentality that we are not happy unless we have something to moan about.