Club rugby in wales on the verge of extinction?

First topic message reminder :

Please don't think this is a knee jerk reaction for a poor showing this weekend (although once again it highlights my points)

I have talked about a professional 12 team prem for some time now, I have not always felt this way and was on board with regions initially despite the points made against it making sense.

It has been near 10 years now since it's inception and I think we were told to wait this amount of time for a HC success, it has not come. From the top of my head 2 semi finals and an Amlin win is as good as it's got for the regions. Not bad, but they have come to a team packed with internationals, the Blues side that reached a semi and won the Amlin had the likes of Gethin Jenkins, Rhys Thomas (int at the time?) Jones, Davies, Williams, Rush, Rees (int at time) Roberts, Laulala, Blair, and 1/2p. 8 of these players no longer with the blues, Jenkins, Thomas, Laulala, and Rees lured away. Not to mention the coach who masterminded it.

Now don't get me wrong not all was rosey 3/4 years ago, but it was the culmination of the inception of the regions that brought about this semi success, a lot of the clubs best players being not from Cardiff but from the feeder clubs.

Today a lot of the talent inherited (key word) by the regions is either retiring or moving away to earn much more, and we are left with 4 regions with massive weaknesses, IE Blues/Scarlets tight 5, Ospreys backline/back 3, Dragons first team squad etc etc...

IMO this is how we are going to go for the future, regions producing a small core of talented players every few seasons but unable to produce enough to lift the depth of club and international rugby in this country.

The more the clubs struggle the less the best players will want to stay, and I know this could be part of the argument against a prof prem but the prem will offer a few things that money alone won't intrugue those players,

History
Rivalry
Sense of pride
A sense of ownership
tradition

All of these are common amongst Irish players within the provinces, it isn't the tax rebate at the end of their careers that stop the best irish players leaving, they could come back for that, and the Ulster players don't get it either.

IMO if the WRU don't do a full reverse and get a prof prem up on it's feet it's just a matter of time before we lose the club game alltogether, and I can foresee a region or 2 wanting to play in the Aviva at some point down the line!

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Cas - not being harsh here but your talking poopie. People who are not regular fans of rugby just call them 'teams' and would call tehm 'teams' whether the offiicial name were Pro Teams, Regions, Superclubs, Cas-Special-Sides or whatever. People who are not behind the regions are already so bitter and twisted that a change of name would not suffice, and a new kit, name, and venue (ideally the moaners own town), new players, and possibly coaches, would be required to win them over. And no disrespect, but I have a feeling you would still be at the head of the list of people slagging them off no matter the name.

I've never, ahem, 'slagged off' any teams (maybe Dragons once or twice but they started it and I didn't really mean it) - it's the structure itself that I've been critical of. But, since Roger confirmed that this is it for the current phase of the rolling framework etc. I've been embracing it.

I also never said that branding them as 'Pro Teams' (copyright Casartelli) would change the old diehards, but being honest with what we have and calling them something new and more positive (I'm sorry, but 'regional' is such an awfully drab, even 'poopie', term) would be a start on the road to healing the petty squabbling. You wouldn't lose any fans and we might, slowly, start appealing to a new generation if Welsh rugby appears as one united entity.

Sorry I havn't read all comments, but Ive seen enough to know the arguments against my idea seem to be based on 3 principles...
- Money, of course at present we can't afford 12 teams at present, not in the way we run the regions anyway. But what noone seems to be considering is that A prof prem would benfit the clubs in so many ways, and there are advantages to it.

Running costs for the average prem side would be a small % of what the regions are running on, from development costs, travel costs, advertising, marketting etc etc, plus each club would be owned meaning the WRU would need to input far less either financially or hands on!!! I know it'd be a real stretch to initiate but sustainability is far greater in the long run.

- Player talent, there is a reason we have very little depth in Wales, we have anhialated large % of the country who are unable for whatever reasons to persue careers in the sport, travel time, costs, parent bias etc etc. If we had 12 self sustaining academy systems players would have far more chances to move up the ladder to prove themselves, and 99% of the kids in the region who are told are not good enough at the age of 13/14 wouldn't be let go (trust me player selection is far closer to a lottery than anyone thinks) My point is if we now have 30 prof players per region, our talent pool would be significantly improved (long term) with over 400+ prof players compared to the 150+ we have now.

- Mindset, as Ive stated I am not an oldy who thinks the good old days were better. Infact I barely remember the club system as I'm in my late 20's and from what I remember the times were hardly golden. But a lot of people who are claiming regionalism has revamped welsh rugby aren't considering 2 key points. Firstly regionalism coincided with professionalism in this country, we were years behind everyone else, and this increase in player ability has to be attributed to professionalism finally reaching wales first generation. Secondly player localisation gave the regions bumper squads of international players and quality throughout, short term this was a lovely fix, but now the shine has been lost and the money from abroad is too much to compete with we are seeing teams stripped to the bones and panic signing poor foreign replacements (See the blues NWQ signings in the last 2 seasons).

Players abroad now arent effecting the international team yet! But mark my words it will happen unless we can offer something that welsh players can't get in England or France. Roberts and Cuthbert have all but left the Blues, who knows how long Lydiate and Falatau will put up with the Dragons.

I am as forward thinking as can be, and IMHO the regions have a sell by date which initially we were told was 10 years for HC success, our localised academies were suppose to pump out world class players every year, and the regions were suppose to be competitive, Instead the little quality they produce is wasted sitting on a bench in a nothing league waiting for the big HC and Int pay day. The regions are facing the least competitive season in europe EVER, and may well see none in the Rabo playoffs, with this happening crowds are likely to start dropping and the game will slowly die out.


Now I know there are lots of you who will just think NO mainly for the sake of it, but I am yet to hear another suggestion to where the club game in wales go's to avoid extinction.

I embraced regionalism and have been a Blues season ticket holder for each season (2nd CCS onwards aside) and a Dragons season ticket holder for the last 3 seasons (although I dont get to go to either much) please don't write me off as an old thinking club fan, or a fantasy dreamer, better still consider the arguments put to you and come up with a constructive suggestion

I'm sorry but all your suggestions seem to be designed to make the position you describe worse.

You say that the teams are weak and uncompetitive and not enough youngsters come through, so you want to further dilute the talent pool by spreading it around 12 teams mixed with a load of semi-pro players who you hope will improve enough to play the best in Europe.

You say the regions don't have enough money and are costly to maintain, yet want to find triple the amount of money men to pay for over double the amount of professional players and a large increase in international standard, who'll (being internationals) will want to earn around about the same amount they are currently on.

It springs to mind that having 12 clubs precariously financed, with large costs and scabbling for the top players is similar to what happened when professionalism 1st came to Wales, before regionalisation - where clubs kept going under/threatening to go under, and there was no money and an exodus of players to foreign climes.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I'm sorry but all your suggestions seem to be designed to make the position you describe worse.

You say that the teams are weak and uncompetitive and not enough youngsters come through, so you want to further dilute the talent pool by spreading it around 12 teams mixed with a load of semi-pro players who you hope will improve enough to play the best in Europe.

You say the regions don't have enough money and are costly to maintain, yet want to find triple the amount of money men to pay for over double the amount of professional players and a large increase in international standard, who'll (being internationals) will want to earn around about the same amount they are currently on.

It springs to mind that having 12 clubs precariously financed, with large costs and scabbling for the top players is similar to what happened when professionalism 1st came to Wales, before regionalisation - where clubs kept going under/threatening to go under, and there was no money and an exodus of players to foreign climes.

Spot on Smirnoff.

Bluesman, you've got a noble idea but I think it's flawed mainly because of the money factor. You mention a fully 'pro' prem. Pros will want to be paid a pro wage (and not just the ones down the docks). Affording 12 teams of pro players is just not a realistic option unless you can attract 11 more money men (Peters at the Blues is the only one left I think?). They're just not out there for a simple reason: there's nigh on no money to be made in rugby, so as successful businessmen they can see the pitfalls and choose to stay away. Peters is only there beacause he's loaned the Blues his money rather than put it in, so he's onto a winner the longer he stays and loans them money as he's always gaining on interest.

There's not enough billionaires in Wales for rugby to be a hobby to them, and in all honesty if there were then it can go boobies up when they get bored so it's probably best that we don't take that route.

Dilute is a funny word, it only tends to explain the present. Yes we would dilute the number of quality professional players at the regions, but lets be totally truthfull about it, each region only has a small number of players players they will miss. If we take the Dragons for example...

Lydiate
Falatau

Are the top boys, now having one of them leave for say Xkeys wouldn't kill Newport.
There is a large number of prem quality players who have been conditioned to a higher standard within the dragons squad, and there is already a team of 22/23 players within gwent who can match the Dragons first team (see pre season) so IMO 3 clubs sharing the Dragons squad and handpicking the best of their own squad would lose little quality!!!

But you are right, initially the HC would be too far for any welsh club (Isn't it already) and it would take 10 years of competitive rugby to reach the standards where the best welsh clubs could gain some notariaty on the european front.
But rugby is a long term sport, the regions were a short term fix!!!

Regarding the money issue, the average gates for the regions isn't that high, and IMO a fully prof Pontypridd would be competitive with them, not to mention a fully prof Cardiff RFC would lose little support from regional rugby.
Imagine Cardiff RFC with a lower wage budget, bringing through players to play against Pontypridd, a large bumper crowd of over 6k, not having to spend a fortune trying to incorporate a region, marketing budget reduced massively, and with home grown talent, no expensive flights every other week, and with home and travelling support???

Like I said finding investors and setting it up initially would be very difficult, affording to pay the best players also, but soon enough competitiveness would take over, teams would get relegated and promoted, new money men would take over, new generations of players and fans would come in and eventually over time we could have a product similar to the Aviva or T14!

When professionalism first came to Wales it was fought tooth and nail by the ego's and players alike. We were our own worst enemy.

"and there was no money and an exodus of players to foreign climes. "

Why does this sentence sound familiar? oh ye, it's where we are after our short term fix!

But Griff the football clubs in Wales aren't earning money, they aren't pretending to be regional and covering Wales, they aren't slaves to a national team, but they are very succesfull products!

It's just a matter of time before rugby in south wales is sold to the highest bidder, or forced on hands and knees to approach thw Aviva in an attempt to get 2 welsh clubs in.

If for any reson the Irish don't back up the Welsh cause we are at the mercy of the English and French demands and then we are one step from losing the game alltogether, we must attempt to set up an infrastructure that is sustainable long term, even if the quality of playing squads have to reduce and the best players go abroad, at least we will have a model that we can sustain. Eventually we can grow to a point and reclaim the best playing staff from Wales.

Umm so your saying that the players currently playing in the Premiership (and future semi-pros) are equal to the current regional players, and as such as long as these teams are sprinkled with internationals they can perform to pro level, and maybe Amlin level in 2-3 years?

And your basing this view on 1 pre-season game between a combined Gwent XV and a Dragons 3rds?

Interesting point I must say - IMO very far off the mark, and it begs the question if these players are so good why aren't they playing for a region or picked up by another pro/semi-pro side from another league, I mean the Championship pays far more that the Welsh Prem, the Italian sides are always looking for players, as is the professional Russian league.

I also need to ask - if these sides would do so well (ie up to professional standard) when spread over 12 sides, why are they doing so poorly with all the internationals and the best of those 12 sides all playing for just 4 clubs?
I mean surely this would create stronger sides wouldn't it?

You don't seem to be grasping my points (or offering any real solutions of your own)

Firstly it was hardly Dragons 3rds, including 5/6 first choice players, and professionally conditioned as opposed to part timers, imagine how well the part timers could do if taking the game seriously?!

The current crop of prem players arent equal at all, but then the regions are not looking to invest in decent players in their early mid 20's, they prefer to focus on 13/14 yr olds, spend 10 years in training them to be distinctely average!!

If I've said it once Ive said it a thousand times, I firmly believe I could traul the Gwent region and only pick up Dragon reject players/non selected players, provide them with the platform to play professional rugby and my success rate would be very similar to the Dragons (CHALLENGE!!!)

The Italians and Russians also don't want to pay middle of the road foreign amateur players when they can use their own academies.

My point is the Welsh clubs wouldn't do well in europe, of course not, but then we arent right now anyway, but over time with a competitive domestic league the average squad player would become stronger and stronger, this is all about long term sustainability, not short term fixes like the regions were!!!

But for our misgivings in europe for a while we would have numerous success stories domestically!!

I also want to make the poinbt that clubs can be run professionally on a shoestring, if anyone has any experience of GAA in Ireland you will see how easy it is done when you have local people contributing to a local club pulling together to help out!!!

Jeez, will someone pass bluesman a lager or something? The solutions offered to you have been written, i:e, the suggestions for the current format to stay but look for ways to improve it. Not go back to 12 pro teams which has flaws and not a number advantages to benefit Welsh rugby in many ways.

You're spot on anyway Smirnoff.

Bluesman, can I ask how old you are? Not trying to pick a fight or be patronising, but I remember you saying that you'd recently finished uni. So are you around 22? If so, you've only really known regional rugby. That came in when you were around 12. It may be a bit harder for you to remember the 'glory days' of the pro welsh league, and maybe that's colouring your view?

I'm no old fogey at 35 mind, but I was there for the later stages of the welsh league in it's pro form, and I can tell you that it was not great. I had a season ticket at Rodeny Parade for the last 6 years or so of that league, and I remember the decline in standards. Yes, there were some big rivalries but as the games were played out between teams of similarly mediocre standards they looked to be entertaining, close fought affairs. And tey were. In reality however we were just paying to watch a sub standard league. However, when the money was there at least we were able to compete a little bit on the european stage (no much mind). Newport RFC didn't do very well in Europe, but the games that we won were largely down to our foreign imports. Rod Snow, Gary Teichmann, Andy Marinos, Hal Luscombe, Percy Montgomery, Adrian Garvey, Sione Tuipulotu, Shane Howarth, etc. Not world beaters (maybe Teichmann and Montgomery!), but very good club players. The rest of the team were below par welsh players. These overseas 'stars' allowed us to compete. Take these foreign players away and you had some very ordinary welsh players plugging the gaps. I remember one 20 year old guy we had on the wing who was a former sprinter but was scared of catching or tackling! Brought in just because he was fast! Ridiculous.

When the money started to dry up the foreign players left and you had maybe one or two stars at RP (Montgomery, Snow), and the gaps had to be plugged even more. Honestly, even though it was local town v local town, and the rivalries were great, it did nothing for developing local talent. Why would any youngster develop well against a semi-pro standard player? The right decision was made to concentrate the talent. Instead of teams having 4 or 5 good players you now had 4/5 teams where pretty much everyone was decent. In fact, there was no space for some of the good players (e.g. Charvis). That drove up competition. Increased standards. People had to work for a contract. Those who couldn't be bothered were cast aside. Believe it or not standards were driven up. It may not look like it, but I'm convinced that the regions are stronger than the old clubs. We may not have won much of note in Europe since regional rugby but teams get to the 1/4s fairly regularly, get to semis, have won the Amlin. More importantly though they give the other teams a good game. We're more competitive now. Maybe the Dragons are the expeption, but the other 3 are no pushovers which means we've closed the gap somewhat. We're seeing money drying up again a bit, and the levels have dipped again slightly. Maybe central contracts will be the next push that gets us that extra stability that can make us push on to more success. For the Dragons, we (as in Welsh rugby/WRU) need to make the Dragons a more attractive prospect. It's a chicken and egg situation. Crowds are low due to no success, poor prospects, no stars, and that's what's keeping the players away. Again, maybe central contracts will help the Dragons afford a top wage for a top player. If the Dragons could tempt back some of the good players playing 'overseas' then we would not be far behind the other regions IMO - but we need to be an attractive option, whether that's money or propspects or both. Peel, Stephen Jones, Robinson, Lee Thomas, Macleod, Andy Powell (not sure actually!), Richie Rees, Roberts at Northampton, Eifion Roberts, Charteris, Brew, Phillips, Gethin, Byrne, Hook. Just a few off the top of my head. If we could attract just a few of these back it might be the catalyst for the 'rebirth' of the Dragons.

Back to the original point though. 12 teams, for me, will not compete on a European stage. 4 teams are doing it better (well, 3) and a few tweaks I think could make 4. Going back to 12 will be going back to rugby in Wales in 2002 where the national team was rubbish, the club sides were on the whole poor, where I could have got a game if I'd asked, and where talent was not coming through even though we had so many teams for them to play in. Only since regional rugby, and the concentration of talent into 4 teams, have we actually seen this young talent coming through. I don't think that this is coincidence.

Griff,

Marinos, Luscombe and Howarth (for a while) are Welsh dont forget

I am a tad older but like you remember those days and whilst I now follow my Region I am an Ebbw boy through and through and it was a poor standard of rugby across the league.

Going back to Clubs won't happen and IMO is just not sustainable.

thebluesmancometh wrote:You don't seem to be grasping my points (or offering any real solutions of your own)

Firstly it was hardly Dragons 3rds, including 5/6 first choice players, and professionally conditioned as opposed to part timers, imagine how well the part timers could do if taking the game seriously?!

The current crop of prem players arent equal at all, but then the regions are not looking to invest in decent players in their early mid 20's, they prefer to focus on 13/14 yr olds, spend 10 years in training them to be distinctely average!!

If I've said it once Ive said it a thousand times, I firmly believe I could traul the Gwent region and only pick up Dragon reject players/non selected players, provide them with the platform to play professional rugby and my success rate would be very similar to the Dragons (CHALLENGE!!!)

The Italians and Russians also don't want to pay middle of the road foreign amateur players when they can use their own academies.

My point is the Welsh clubs wouldn't do well in europe, of course not, but then we arent right now anyway, but over time with a competitive domestic league the average squad player would become stronger and stronger, this is all about long term sustainability, not short term fixes like the regions were!!!

But for our misgivings in europe for a while we would have numerous success stories domestically!!

I also want to make the poinbt that clubs can be run professionally on a shoestring, if anyone has any experience of GAA in Ireland you will see how easy it is done when you have local people contributing to a local club pulling together to help out!!!

A few points - if the regions were only looking to invest in 13-14 year olds, then Lloyd Burns, Liam Williams, Gilbert and Murphy would never have played for the regions, also the 1st batch of youngsters would have only come through 2 seasons ago, rather than the Hooks, Roberts', Owens', Bradley Davies', Charteris' type of players who did come through with the regions.

The Gwent XV was playing for something, professional contracts, their careers and the ability to make it at the top and play for the Dragons. They'd been training all summer together as a group to prove they were good enough to play for the Dragons, cumilating in the exhibition game - for the pro players it was the start of their pre-season training. But it's hardly proof either way, and is only one game.

I mentioned other pro leagues because of your claim that they are/could be as good as the current professionals in Wales - now you say they are middle of the road amatuers, which I agree with (or at least they are semi-pros), and that is why they don't get picked up.

You still don't answer the question (remembering that the biggest outlay of the clubs/regions is wages in a professional league. If the regions aren't doing good enough for you with the budgets they have, why would 12 clubs with access to less internationals, less players (bigger competition for players even if the player pool does increase by the 150% you believe) and significantly less money (meaning many wouldn't be able to afford any internationals) do any better? or even wouldn't do significantly worse. Especially with the increased costs of stadium maintanence/rent and advertising increased by 3 times?

I've given you my view, as have others - Regional rugby is the most sensible and best option and has increased competition remarkable, and increased the quality of player we are producing, it has helped the Welsh team and has made us competitive in the Rabo - we are currently suffering from lack of funds and too much costs and the teams are reorganising their set ups accordingly - which of course will take awhile.

Griff

29 mate, I was a late returner to the education thing. But you are right from what I remember the club game was awfull, but then so were the numpties who were running it, and I will never be convinced any of the clubs were ever run professionally until the regions were introduced.

Smirnoff

The Hooks, Davies, Roberts, Charteris type players were all products of clubs, and were all in their late teens before regionalism. The only way regionalism may have helped would have been prof SnC programmes and they werent introduced until the last few seasons so those players werent part of the regions new localisation of talent.

RE Burns, your right, Dragons were desperate and found a golden nugget, but as I said when he first came onto the scene, with the way they built him up physiologically he was always one awkward hit away from career ending due to his foundations. He was structure was never going to be able to cope with the amount of balloon muscle piled upon him, especially the lower limbs in regards to impact injuries.

However from what I know Liam Williams, like Gilbert and Murphy were all involved at age grade level at some point before being de selected and having to prove themselves, like Stef from the Dragons.

"The Gwent XV was playing for something, professional contracts, their careers and the ability to make it at the top and play for the Dragons."

Are you suggesting motivation like this ups peoples games? Isn't that what Ive been saying about competition breeding competition?!

Now your points regarding clubs potential performance has been adressed over and over, they will struggle initially, but this is not a short term fix (as the regions were) this is a long term project looking to make the clubs competitive through a growing domestic product, higher profile, and using tradition and history as motivation.

Re wages your right, it'll be killer, but central contracts for 20 - 30 players would help, as would the market being flooded by more prof players in wales wanting to play in wales. (although this I agree is a big issue to my idea)