Easterby calls for more consistancy from refs.....

Does he have a point ? I have just watched an interview with Simon Easterby where is asking for more consistancy from refs in the HC, he has said that he has watched games where the refs are not treating the side fairly and that the referees need to get together and sort out what they deem as legal and illegal during games, I for one am not for having a go at refs, honest, but I do think he has a point at the moment we all seem to be talking more about the refs than the sport itself.

How can anyone disagree we see it in the RABO every weekend.

Problem is if it was easily done then it would be like that already.

I seem to remember Cockers being slammed for saying exactly the same thing last season and the season before. Until top level reffing organisations intergrate fully there will always be major changes in how refs from different nations officiate.

Yes, there is more consistency needed. Referees unions are competitive and want to produce the best referees. If they do the same thing as everyone else then they are not going to stand out and get their referees on elite lists.

Therefore each union is trying to do things in a slightly different way to give their referees the edge with the IRB selectors.

The Irish and South African referees have done well off this in recent seasons.

The problem is then that it leads to slight inconsistencies which in todays media savy world are picked up on by analyists, fans and bloggers which causes frustration.

This might be a silly question but, other than ensuring that refs don't officiate in games involving their own nations/clubs from their nations why do they need to be affiliated to a union?

What would be the problem with them being independent? That way there could be a lot more uniformity and remove the 'competitiveness' that seems to be causing some of the problems. I guess the unions wouldn't like it!

Does it happen in any other sports or are officials always affiliated with a union (or similar)?

Obviously there would still need to be some way of ensuring impartiality and having a training structure within different nations.

Just thought I'd throw it out there.

Im not sure how that would work Avalon.

Where would they live? Would they spend their life commuting from England to New Zealand to Argentina to France to South Africa every week?

In most sports referees referee in a particular country to which they are affiliated. They then travel to referee internationally.

I can't really see how it would be practical otherwise.

They would also need to have trained somewhere surely?

Refs don't just appear fully formed. They have to gain experience reffing at lower levels somewhere and be assessed by someone.

I accept that it can sometimes appear that they just showed up at the ground and were allowed to officiate because they were the only guy with a whistle, but still....

red_stag/MrsP

Yeah, I've not given the practicalities a thorough check to be honest...

There must be an uninhabited island somewhere that we could send them

Seriously though, while competitiveness is usually a good thing in terms of improving quality it doesn't seem to quite work here. It's like schools and exam boards wanting to do things differently so what you learned and revised for is examined in a totally different way than you were expecting. Then you find out your mate did the same exam and his questions were different.

Getting the IRB to work closer with the unions (especially the NH/SH divide) is a real problem.

I don't think there is a NH/SH divide necessarily.

I think that some unions are more similar than others but its not necessarily North v South.

I would say that Ireland and South Africa are similar in that I find them to both tend to give too many penalties rather than too few at the breakdown.

You could not claim that Roman Poite and Alain Rolland and Nigel Owens all have a similar style of refereeing.

No, fair enough red_stag. It's a little simplistic to lump all NH refs in together (same with SH).

That actually makes the issue even more muddled in that there doesn't seem to be a real pattern.

MrsP wrote:They would also need to have trained somewhere surely?

Refs don't just appear fully formed. They have to gain experience reffing at lower levels somewhere and be assessed by someone.

I accept that it can sometimes appear that they just showed up at the ground and were allowed to officiate because they were the only guy with a whistle, but still....

Yep, of course. They would need a fully-structured training programme and tiered levels of rugby to advance through. I guess it would be very difficult to train them through anything other than a national system controlled by a union. I guess they could move around on a rota basis through different leagues (once they got to a certain level) but this would be time-consuming and expensive and difficult to manage.
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Blimey, I really haven't thought this one out. Scrap the whole thing!

Avalon, then you get situations where different societies within these unions may approach an issue a bit different or maybe individual referees. And then there are laws that referees will penalise one week but not another week due to the specific situation.

For example if a player makes a breakaway for a try and an opposition play running behind him and shouts "pass it" do you penalise him if he is passed the ball. Some referees do, some don't. There is no definite rule.

It all stems from the fact that the laws are really just guidelines rather than black and white rules to be applied.

Avalon, my bet is that even with your fancy dandy system we would still have this conversation!

Its just the way the game is set up.

A change to total consistency is to change the whole nature of rugby. A little more consistency wouldnt hurt though!

Maybe he should ask for some consistency from his team first............

Back to the drawing board for you Avalon!

Reminds me of a friend who is a technical drawer.(not sure if that is the proper title).

He was tasked with redesigning access to a building in a fairly small yard. He tried several ways to fit in the ramp of the appropriate incline but it was taking up too much room.

Eventually he had a moment and designed it with steps up to the entrance.

He was very proud of the design until someone reminded him that the reason they had been putting in a ramp was because the building was a garage!!!!!

red_stag

Yeah, the law/rule difference obviously allows for interpretation that isn't so much of an issue in other sports. Which. to an extent, is a good thing and necessary because of the complexities of the sport. I don't profess to fully understand a lot of the laws in their finer detail (though I'm not alone in that with some pundits and journos) and, as you say, these are quite often dealt with slightly differently.

It's difficult to prescribe properly without taking away a lot of what makes union so good but it also can make it frustrating as a coach, fan (and ref too I'm sure).

Re. the "pass it" incidents. For me, that should be covered by ungentlemanly conduct (is that in the laws) and if I were a ref (rugby world beware!) then I'd penalise it every time. I've heard of players shouting at opponents in an attempt to put them off/intimidate when they go to tackle them. I think Nigel Owens got somebody for that a few seasons back.

MrsP

Yep, the planning team have been told to take a week off until I come up with something better

How about that Scottish RFU ref , he refs in the rabo and i think he reffed Ospreys V Treviso on Friday,his name escapes me.
But he is a bald man with legs like cotton thread, he really really get on my nerves.
He always seems to ref Ulster games in the rabo,i heard his accent one game and i thought he sounded Northern Irish not Scottish so i googled him and low and be hold a born and bred Ulster man!! learned his trade under the SRU thou.

How can he be neutral?

Rolland is the same he should be any where near French games or Leinster games, am i right in thinking he used to play for Leinster at some level?

Then we have Owens, oh dear, yes great ref but in the Welsh derby's he seems to favor the team which players have been his mates on twitter for the longest.

Wayne Barnes is good.

Viewtothegym,

The French thing with Rolland is nonsense. He is Irish - his Dad is French.

There are LOADS of Welsh people with mums and dads from places like England for example. They are not English.

He did indeed play for Leinster and I agree he should never be refereeing them. Im not sure that he ever has done but if he has then it is not on.

On Patterson I agree - that does not seem neutral to me at all. He was born in Ulster, went to school in Ulster, grew up in Ulster, supported Ulster. Should not be refereeing them in professional competitive fixtures.

It would be like Steve Walsh refereeing the All Blacks because he is now "Australian".

A big problem with Refs I find is that teams in the lower part of the table usually get inexperienced refs who can often ruin games by being completely overwhelmed, being swayed by the home crowd or by being very whistle happy. This is especially prevelant in the Rabbo, some of the Italian and Scotish refs are awful.

munkian wrote:A big problem with Refs I find is that teams in the lower part of the table usually get inexperienced refs who can often ruin games by being completely overwhelmed, being swayed by the home crowd or by being very whistle happy. This is especially prevelant in the Rabbo, some of the Italian and Scotish refs are awful.

This is an excellent point

I agree too!

A few seasons ago when Ulster had just had a scrap with Connacht for the third HEC spot, I noticed that we would get a lot of the "less experienced" refs while the Big Teams would get the "better" refs more often. I remember pointing out at the time that every match in a league should be viewed as equally important.

Stll feel that way.

Dragons (being sh*te) get alot of the dross and I know I can't use it as an excuse but we end up on the end of a lot of iffy decisions from refs are well out of their depth.

Saying that, was a bit of howler with that weird penalty at posts that turned into a try against the Scarlets the other week.