Sir Jackie Stewart says 3rd World Title in a row won't make Vettel an all time great

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/19969175

Obviously Vettel is a very quick driver, but the point about him having a vastly superior car is a valid one.

I agree 100% with Jackie here. The greats can see it as well. The current drivers know this too.

Exactly.

Id say this is the 1st season where the car has been on a similar level to others so he's showing some talent so far and can compete with the Hamilton/Alonso's of the world

Although that's gone out the window with their new update....

I would agree to an extent that he's performed very well this season, however he only managed one win in Bahrain back in April before this recent successful spell. Of course he's performed consistantly but it's only since the significant RB/Newey update that has led to Vettel suddenly winning three races on the bounce, something that had not been seen at all this season.

When the car was on a similar level, the results show he is far from being a great. When the update came, he looks like a great........says it all. People are realising that Vettel winning in the same familiar style in a dominant Newey car can only propel you so far up in the respect of the F1 paddock. By the end of 2013, it would not surprise me to see him becoming a four time world champion and it will be at that time when the media will begin to get on his back about being in the dominant car and not wanting to join a weaker team, such as what Hamilton has done. Gaining the respect and admiration of fellow drivers comes from winning at multiple teams and in different car's, something Hamilton has bought into.

That's why everyone is expecting Vettel to join Ferrari n 2014. There is no smoke without fire, too many sources claiming of a deal agreed. The new challenge of racing Alonso in his own back yard and succeeding would propel Vettel much further up the all time greats list, than just driving from the front to processional wins that nobody enjoys.

Before the RB became the best car by a distance Vettel wasn't really at the fire of the title challenge

He hasn't had the best car this season and he's still going to win the championship, sounds like ATG stuff to me. Though i would have preferred Alonso to win it, when Vettel is on it he's pretty much unbeatable.

It is a pertinent point that when the RB became the best car by a sizable margin that Vettel started piling up wins.

But when Hamilton was winning his car was the best and for a stretch in mide season the Ferrari was right on the pace as well. It's not like other drivers win in cars any worse than second best.

Aye, but Hamilton and Alonso have won WC when there are competitive cars around.

2011 his car was certainly the best by a distance all season, this year he wasn't really that close until his car became the clear best. Fair play to him, he cashes in when his car is on top unlike Hamilton this season, but I can't really regard him as a great when the majority of his wins are largely getting the best car on pole and managing it home.

But then a helluva lot of Hamilton's and Alonso's wins have come about in exactly the same manner. Also this year providing he wins it will be a great championship for Vettel, for a lot of the season the car wasn't the best but he did his best in the circumstances and is now being rewarded.

Putting aside the early season tyre lottery F1 wins are now often achieved using the pole to flag formula so perfected by Vettel. Had he not retired in Singapore Hamilton would've nothed up win number 4 in precisely the same manner despite Vettel in his new super fast RB8 running second. The reason IMO is modern crumbly tyres are making being in clean air vital to race victories rendering pole position more advantageous than ever - especially when the cars are closely matched. This is making racing at the front too predictable - once upon a time if someone like Hamilton didnt get pole it was great watching them race back into contention on Sundays with different variables such as fuel coming into play. Not anymore. You have to go back to the 2010 season to remember any swashbuckling drives from Hamilton. Lets have durable tyres, re-fuelling and hard racing back on the menu please.

Back on topic - as a driver Vettel has got to, at sometime, beat the best of his peers using the same equipment. He could have went up against Hamilton in 2013 but for some reason RBR decided against it (funny that). Unlike Hamilton who is happy to take on all comers and woud've jumped into the RB9 at a stroke Vettel seems obsessed with the record books and probably sees taking on a 33 year old Alonso in 2014 as the easier route to immortality. Very clever but unlike Schumi Alonso will have had no gardening leave and it could easily backfire. That's if it's all true of course.

monty junior wrote:But then a helluva lot of Hamilton's and Alonso's wins have come about in exactly the same manner. Also this year providing he wins it will be a great championship for Vettel, for a lot of the season the car wasn't the best but he did his best in the circumstances and is now being rewarded.

No one is saying Hamilton or Alonso are all time greats either. (Maybe a little unfair on Alonso as he has been at Renault before).

The certainly are not, Vettel is the youngest of the three and will probably have three championships so he's certainly well on his way.

Alonso is the closest of the three to becoming a great. Everyone knew, even before this season, that Alonso was the most complete and best driver on the grid. This season has just enhanced his status within F1 and amongst the paddock. I would say Alonso would probably have to win two more world titles in his remaining five years with Ferrari to cement him place as an all time great. Hamilton is nowhere near being on an all time great list. His early career was of course sensational and his driving speed is not in doubt, he's arguably the fastest driver on the grid, however one title at McLaren followed by four up and down and generally regarded unsuccessful years, has seen his stock drop. Hence, why he's taken the step in joining Mercedes in an attempt to regain his enjoyments of the sport and to transform a weakened team into a title challenger. If successful, it will be seen in the eyes of many, as a truly great achievement. Hamilton will have to at least win three world titles, reminiscent of his hero Aryton Senna, in my opinion, to be ultimately happy with his career. If greatness comes with this achievement, only time will tell.

Vettel will just roll along winning in his dominant newey designed car and keep picking up the championships. He will expect to be transformed into an F1 great, however this will not happen until he's at least joined an inferior team or he has at least joined Ferrari and beaten Alonso in his own backyard. Vettel's career will always be compared to Schumacher's seven titles, therefore his task is more difficult in relation to his rivals.

Sorry John but I think ur'e being a tad unfair on Hamilton. Apart from 2011 there are good reasons why he's not won a WDC since 2008 - and the same goes for Alonso who's won diddly squat since 2006. For pure driving talent Hamilton has no equal IMO and if he were a tennis player or a footballer he'd already be earmarked as great. But we all know the world of F1 doesnt work like that and actually winning titles is down to the abilities of an entire team.
If Alonso does win in this year in an inferior car (and I hope he does) then its as much down to his team who have been as excellent as his driving. If Mclaren were half as good then Hamilton would be a double champ as I'm typing this post.

Put it another way - George Best was one of the greatest players ever to lace on a pair of boots but he was never going to lift a world cup in a million years.

The myth of the cr@p Ferrari has been pushed by Alonso and swallowed by the gullible.

I think the real crux of the problem of people recognising Vettel as an all-time great is that his world titles have come in a team with markedly the fastest car on the grid and designed by the genius that is Adrian Newey. As someone said earlier if he can clinch more titles in lesser cars or in a team with an equal driver alongside ie Alonso then he will win far more fans. Alonso has done all that already winning a world title at Renault when Schumacher was at his height at Ferrari and again he is challenging here when clearly the Ferrari is just not as fast as the Red Bull.

Alonso didn't win when Schumacher was at his height. Ferrarri had been well nobbled by that time.

bogbrush wrote:Alonso didn't win when Schumacher was at his height. Ferrarri had been well nobbled by that time.

Eh? Schumacher had won the title at Ferrari from 2000 through until 2004 (five world titles on the bounce) and the run was brought to an end by Alonso in 2005 and 2006 when the Spaniard in a Renault beat Ferrari who were definitely the team to beat.

It was brought to an end by rule changes designed to prevent the death of the sport by strangulation by Ferrarri.

Well not exactly as Ferrari won the title again in 2007 and 2008.

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well not exactly as Ferrari won the title again in 2007 and 2008.

And you reckon the rule changes didn't knock them back?

That would come as a shock to the people who implemented them for that very reason.

bogbrush wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Well not exactly as Ferrari won the title again in 2007 and 2008.

And you reckon the rule changes didn't knock them back?

That would come as a shock to the people who implemented them for that very reason.

Not particularly considering they still won more than 50% of the races in those two seasons.

And about 90% before.

Yes but 50% of races for one team is certainly not a team that was nobbled. Yes they took time to get use to new regulations but make no mistake they were definitely the team to beat in what is widely regarded as the golden years for Ferrari. Alonso rested the world title from under their noses in a smaller team and lower funded team as well and that is why he is held in high esteem. Also the ability to hang in this year's title race even though the Ferrari lacks the pace of the Red Bull. If Vettel moves on to a team that does not have the fastest car on the grid and wins the title then you will find him getting far more respect I think.

Who cares? I'm not that bothered about Vettel, but I do find the pained and grudging respect he's given very funny.

It is the way though bogbrush. I don't see Michael Schumacher as the greatest of all-time either as I feel he won the majority of his titles in a peach of a car (a bit like Vettel). People respect drivers for achievements in lesser teams/slower cars. I suppose it is akin to Man City winning the EPL but it is a tainted achievement due to them having a huge financial advantage whereas if say a lesser well off team like Everton won the title that would be seen as a great achievement.

Yeah, Schumacher joined a team with the best car didn't he? I mean, it's development had nothing to do with him.

Schumacher was a monster, just far too capable a person for anyone else to cope with. Too intelligent, too driven, too focussed and too skilful. The package was unstoppable.

bogbrush wrote:Yeah, Schumacher joined a team with the best car didn't he? I mean, it's development had nothing to do with him.

Schumacher was a monster, just far too capable a person for anyone else to cope with. Too intelligent, too driven, too focussed and too skilful. The package was unstoppable.

Well there is also the fact that the team was TOTALLY geared around him where co-drivers Eddie Irvine and then Rubens Barrichello were often told to move over when in a winning position to allow Schumacher to win plus the FIA and Ferrari were sickeningly close and Ferrari could do no wrong around that time.

Just to point out what I say - look at Alain Prost (a 4-time world champion) but is never really regarded as an all-time great. It happens.

Vettel could get in on weight of victories if the RB stays dominant, but yeah, to be an ATG he'll have to take on another top driver (Hamilton or Alonso atm) and beat them or demonstrate the ability to win consistently in a car that isn't the best by a clear margin.

I'm not simply bashing Vettel, hes a great winner, and the best driver in the field at cashing in on an advantage. Only Alonso can match his consistency.

Exactly GSC.

Players seen as true greats have shown their ability in more than a totally dominant car as Red Bull has been in recent years. Ayrton Senna excelled in various teams and dragged them into winning races, Alonso also ended Ferrari's dominance winning titles at Renault and is competitive even in a Ferrari not as fast as the Red Bull. If Seb moves on to a lesser team and remains competitive or wins titles there he will begin to be recognised as an all-time great in my opinion.

It must also be said, winning titles based on 15 pole to finish races doesnt endear you to the public either

The thing is as well that Jenson Button isn't seen as an all-time great as his only world title came driving for a team (like Red Bull) that were some way ahead of the opposition. Lewis Hamilton likewise isn't seen as an all-time great and won't be unless he transforms Mercedes into a championship contending car. The drivers I really warm to are ones that can drive the wheels off a car that isn't the fastest and get eye-opening results - Kimi managed that yesterday and was a title contender until yesterday. Some achievement in a second tier team don't you think?

Seeing Jenson in the same line as 'all-time great' never fails to make me laugh.

You are right about Vettel in many ways and I actually think he will continue to dominate through 2013 aswell with no regulation change and seeing as Webber is clearly inept at challenging and is actually, in my eyes, becoming a laughing stock at Red Bull while playing second fiddle to the future three-time world champion. I think Vettel will continue to dominate and stack up the wins and break multiple records, in doing so, he will expect himself to be propelled into some 'legend' of the sport, however as we all know, it's more than likely that isn't going to be the case. It will take him time to realise that his domination isn't actually endearing himself to the public or the F1 paddock and the inevitable question of joining a non-newey team or competing against another great will arise.

Lewis has of course failed to achieve multiple titles at McLaren for multiple reasons and joining Mercedes is a way of showing that he is willing to take the hard road, in order to be successful in F1. This has already gained more respect from fellow drivers and the F1 paddock than what Vettel has achieved through his uncompetitive, pole to finish dominations that have become tiresome. It's seems that transforming non-competitive teams or non-newey cars has transpired to be the be-all and end-all of true F1 achievements nowadays, such is the genius and impact that Newey has had on the sport. I have a sneaky suspicion though that Mercedes have something rather more competitive than a mid-table runner for next season. I cannot believe that a team of Ross Brawn, Geoff Willis, Bob Bell & Aldo Costa can remain dwindling in the midfield of F1 and with Mercedes 'poaching' the aerodynamic brain of Mike Elliot, who was fundamental in the successes of the Lotus this year, success should surely be close.

As for Kimi Raikkonen, he's driven superbly this season and he deserves all the plaudits coming his way. Helping him on his way though was reliability of the highest standard, something which this season, Hamilton can only dream of.