ERC round 2 Munster Vs Edinburgh Sunday 21st (kick-off 12.45pm).

First topic message reminder :

Well 2 sides licking their wounds after a disapointing start to both of their Heineken cup campeigns.

One team's wounds are considerably deeper and more painful and will have no doubt had a massive psychological impact.

Still, Thormond has been a happy hunting ground for Edinburgh in the past...... hasn't it?

Well Bradley being and ex Munster man will know exactly what his troops are going to face at the weekend.

Edinburgh may be without Visser and Laidlaw after they were injured in the drubbing they received from the Saffercens and Musnter may be without Mr Dependable Ronan O'Gara.

I open the floor to discussion, banter and gentle mocking. Be gentle with us though Munster fans, we were taking some pelters on that other thread!

Munster

15. Denis Hurley
14. Doug Howlett capt,
13. Casey Laulala
12. James Downey
11. Simon Zebo
10. Ian Keatley
9. Conor Murray
1. Dave Kilcoyne
2. Mick Sherry
3. BJ Botha
4. Donncha O'Callaghan
5. Paul O'Connell
6. Donnacha Ryan
7. Sean Dougall
8. Peter O'Mahony

Replacements:
16. Damien Varley
17. Marcus Horan
18. Stephen Archer
19. Billy Holland
20. Paddy Butler
21. Duncan Williams
22. JJ Hanrahan
23. Felix Jones

Edinburgh

15 Greig Tonks
14 Lee Jones
13 Nick De Luca
12 Ben Atiga
11 Tim Visser
10 Gregor Hunter
9 Richie Rees

1 John Yapp
2 Ross Ford
3 Geoff Cross
4 Grant Gilchrist
5 Sean Cox CAPTAIN
6 David Denton
7 Stuart McInally
8 Netani Talei

Substitutes
16 Andy Titterrell
17 Robin Hislop
18 Willem Nel
19 Robert McAlpine
20 Dimitri Basilaia
21 Chris Leck
22 Matt Scott
23 Tom Brown.

Edinburgh win another penalty. And they are just outside the Munster 22.

They win the lineout and pass back to near the halfway line and then cough it up with a knock on.

Each team looking to outdo each other in abysmal play.

Murray gets it back and Keatley kicks up field for a touch. Another Edinburgh throw to be put under pressure, but it doesn't work.

Ball comes back Munster way, and Hurley into the line again demanding the ball and promptly runs into traffic. All far too slow.

rodders wrote:Fly has been possessed by the spirit of Sin e....

Didn't my first comment in here say that I was going to officially represent him in his and other Munster supporters absence

Okay, I've done enough of him now, I think. It's actually tiring changing the goalposts so often!

Dreadful from Edinburgh, deserve to get hammered if they continue to play like this.

Take Visser out and the team lack any threat. Scott and De Luca are once again anonymous, back-row chasing shadows and front-five getting dismantled.

Lost count of the number of turnovers and penalties O'Connell has won at the breakdown, but Munster not making it count.

Murray manages to box kick into Edinburgh touch inside 22. Edinburgh win the lineout but are promptly tackled into touch.

Last chance before the whistle. But Munster throw crooked. Oh dear. Time for oranges and a Penney tongue lashing.

So 2 hours of Heineken cup played and Edinburgh yet to score a single point

rodders wrote:I'll bet 3 euro with any takers that Downey will be starting 12 in the AIs.

Done- I'll take that bet. To confirm, you're betting 3 euro it will be Downey against South Africa and I'm countering it will be another player?

Conor Murray is kicking very well today after a very poor outing last week. But Edinburgh are not so smart positionally. Wings are right up defending in the line and Munster are going wide? There is a lot of space to kick for the corners... Murray sees the kick to the corner is the right play, but Keatley doesn't seem to.

Literally the only positive is that we're only 6 points behind

Artful_Dodger wrote:Lost count of the number of turnovers and penalties O'Connell has won at the breakdown, but Munster not making it count.

He has been absolutely immense, shows why he just walk back into the Irish team regardless of the form of others, he is simply on another level to them.

Munster are really missing Earls in the backline, he can't come back soon enough for them, LLL hasn't been great, but even just to have Earls at 15 or on the wing would help Munster so much.

Jeebus Edinburgh have been awful.... that said O'Connell apart Munster haven't been great either. Munster will be very disappointed with that scoreline.

That hiding by the Ospreys has really knocked the wind out of Munster's season. They look devoid of ideas and confidence.

With the exception of Ulster, don't think any of the AP or T14 teams have much to worry about from the Pro12 clubs.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:I'll bet 3 euro with any takers that Downey will be starting 12 in the AIs.

Done- I'll take that bet. To confirm, you're betting 3 euro it will be Downey against South Africa and I'm countering it will be another player?

Conor Murray is kicking very well today after a very poor outing last week. But Edinburgh are not so smart positionally. Wings are right up defending in the line and Munster are going wide? There is a lot of space to kick for the corners... Murray sees the kick to the corner is the right play, but Keatley doesn't seem to.

I think you're just betting that Downey won't start, which is a bet I'd put a lot more than 3euro on, he won't be involved with the squads.

Murray tends to play well the week after he has been played poor, but he really needs someone to be constantly putting a rocket up him to get him playing how he should.

Jeese, how is the score only 6-0!?!? Edinburgh need to sort it out. I think Tonks is keeping us in the game just now, he is such a brilliant full back, best signing by far. Time to get WP Nel on the field!

Also, I know its legal to pinch the ball in a ruck if you're on your feet, but doesn't the man on his feet have to allow the tackled player to present the ball before he can pinch it? It seems in this scenario 70-80% of the time the ref just assumes the tackled player has had a chance to present it when a lot of the time I feel the tackler is just grabbing the ball straight away. I've been noticing this on a lot of games of late and I feel it slows the game down a lot.

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:I'll bet 3 euro with any takers that Downey will be starting 12 in the AIs.

Done- I'll take that bet. To confirm, you're betting 3 euro it will be Downey against South Africa and I'm countering it will be another player?

Actually no I'm shifting the goalposts but will up it to a at Ravenhill. I'll bet Downey will start at least 1 game, probably Argentina and D'arcy the other. Its not that I think that he's great, I don't, I think he's pretty average and inferior to D'arcy, Wallace and Marshall..... I just have a....you know... feeling about it .

Pot Hale wrote:With the exception of Ulster, don't think any of the AP or T14 teams have much to worry about from the Pro12 clubs.

No Munster are on the wane, Ospreys can't seem to get it right and Leinster and Ulster are still in third gear and capable of much more.

Glasgow, Scarlets, Treviso and Zebre are already out of it, basically. Edinburgh need to win here to have a hope but don't look like it at all. But Cardiff will be back in their pool if they can hold onto that slim lead over Toulon. Course if Toulon come back and win it like Clermont last night it's curtains for them too essentially. And Connacht have just lost at home which means they need another win on the road- against Quins or Biarritz. Not too likely.

I believe we will have 2 Pro12 sides in the last eight, Ulster and Leinster.

rodders wrote:

Notch wrote:

rodders wrote:I'll bet 3 euro with any takers that Downey will be starting 12 in the AIs.

Done- I'll take that bet. To confirm, you're betting 3 euro it will be Downey against South Africa and I'm countering it will be another player?

Actually no I'm shifting the goalposts but will up it to a at Ravenhill. I'll bet Downey will start at least 1 game, probably Argentina and D'arcy the other. Its not that I think that he's great, I don't, I think he's pretty average and inferior to D'arcy, Wallace and Marshall..... I just have a....you know... feeling about it .

Don't Sin E me man! South Africa is the big one... Argentina will see rotation. I don't take that bet!

where's that icon when you need it...

RDW_Scotland wrote:Literally the only positive is that we're only 6 points behind

Yup pretty much, as I already said i think Tonks is keeping us in the game with his clearance kicks and phenomenal consistency at catching highballs. If that had been Tom Brown I reckon Munster would have pulled a few of those high kicks off and would have scored a few trys by now. Atiga only played 12 mins??? I think Bradley should get rid of him and sign someone else, he's not match fit.

He's not professional rugby fit never mind match fit!

Just out of curiosity and only seen 5 mins of each half now, why have Munster all but abandoned the round the corner, and grunt work up the middle they are famous for???

No Earls no clue...

Jeebus terrible stuff there from Munster. DOC and POC loitering in the wide channels and a load of pointless offloading.

Bout ye DOD!

Now we're smoking diesel...

If Downey straightens the line there Edinburgh are in serious trouble in defence. Instead he throws the pass, it's a poor pass, and a knock on.

I don't understand this Munster gameplan at all. In that instance if Downey straightens, there's a ruck with quick ball in the Edinburgh 22. Instead of that, he passes to O'Callaghan- who would be clearing that ruck and securing quick ball- and if it comes off, DOC is trying to outrun the cover down the touchline. Wrong option. Poor decision making or poor coaching?

Add to that that Downey is a poor passer of the ball- it just makes no sense.

rodders wrote:Jeebus terrible stuff there from Munster. DOC and POC loitering in the wide channels and a load of pointless offloading.

Bout ye DOD!

Doc and Poc aren't loitering, there is a very good reason for them being there, Munster are having problems with having no real bruiser in the pack and no line breaker in the backs.

Jeebus jones!

You cant coach mediocre players and we have too many

Notch wrote:If Downey straightens the line there Edinburgh are in serious trouble in defence. Instead he throws the pass, it's a poor pass, and a knock on.

I don't understand this Munster gameplan at all. In that instance if Downey straightens, there's a ruck with quick ball in the Edinburgh 22. Instead of that, he passes to O'Callaghan- who would be clearing that ruck and securing quick ball- and if it comes off, DOC is trying to outrun the cover down the touchline. Wrong option. Poor decision making or poor coaching?

Add to that that Downey is a poor passer of the ball- it just makes no sense.

Downey is a poor player, he won't be near the Irish squads.

valjester wrote:
Downey is a poor player, he won't be near the Irish squads.

+ 1....

rodders wrote:

valjester wrote:
Downey is a poor player, he won't be near the Irish squads.

+ 1....

Rodders, you're an awful conspiracy theorist at times.

But DOD if he tells Downey to run straight, Downey can do that and present quick ball. If he tells DOC to hit every ruck and carry around the fringes, DOC can do that and guarantee quick ball. Instead he has Downey trying to spin the ball wide and O'Callaghan loitering on the wing. They're just being asked to play a game which doesn't capitalise on their strengths.

When they DO go through the guts they look dangerous. There's kind of a fascinating clash of cultures here, clash of rugby philosophies between what the coach wants and what the players are good at.

I'm travelling today lads and the radio isn't giving me good updates, can ye keep d'ould scoreline in the comments if you wouldn't mind.

Much obliged

13-0 to Munster

Finally. Munster get one through Murray. 50/50 TMO call.

11-0.

Hehe, Munsters deserved try comes- from a pick and go around the ruck! Through the middle is where they get their reward, NOT moving it from wing to wing.

Doc just cleared out a couple of rucks...whats your point...Downey is just a donkey.

Also Murray at last makes a break...Edinburgh have just been fanning out across the field and we havent been exploiting around the fringes (alá the all blacks)...

Oh look DOC just made a turnover...also had a chance of a try...bounce of the ball...he is one of the few playing well

DOD wrote:Doc just cleared out a couple of rucks...whats your point...Downey is just a donkey.

Also Murray at last makes a break...Edinburgh have just been fanning out across the field and we havent been exploiting around the fringes (alá the all blacks)...

My point is having attacking structures with him on the wing is an entirely useless strategy. He's spending a LOT of time in wide channels.

How was that not advantage over??? Munster made at least 20m before passing into touch!

DOD wrote:Oh look DOC just made a turnover...also had a chance of a try...bounce of the ball...he is one of the few playing well

\



Yeah, I know! I don't disagree. I'm just saying; get him doing whats he does well. Not doing link play out wide.

But he is still doing all the other stuff...having said that we need to do more work around the fringes and get runners coming through hard....not happening...

Notch wrote:

DOD wrote:Doc just cleared out a couple of rucks...whats your point...Downey is just a donkey.

Also Murray at last makes a break...Edinburgh have just been fanning out across the field and we havent been exploiting around the fringes (alá the all blacks)...

My point is having attacking structures with him on the wing is an entirely useless strategy. He's spending a LOT of time in wide channels.

If you look at the New Zealand teams they do the same, you always have two forwards on each wing, and their job is to clear the rucks in the wide channel, Munster have a lot of work to do, but the hope must be that they get there soon enough.

Would like to see Hanrahan now....

Jeebus O'Connell on the wing again...

Zebo is quality, really like that guy. He'd be my first choice winger for Ireland right now. Bowe and Trims are playing well but Zebo is on fire.

He is and he isn't. I'm not singling out DOC, I'm merely using him as an example of whats wrong with Munster.

He could be doing a lot more donkey work if the gameplan gave him license to focus on that.

valjester wrote:

Notch wrote:

DOD wrote:Doc just cleared out a couple of rucks...whats your point...Downey is just a donkey.

Also Murray at last makes a break...Edinburgh have just been fanning out across the field and we havent been exploiting around the fringes (alá the all blacks)...

My point is having attacking structures with him on the wing is an entirely useless strategy. He's spending a LOT of time in wide channels.

If you look at the New Zealand teams they do the same, you always have two forwards on each wing, and their job is to clear the rucks in the wide channel, Munster have a lot of work to do, but the hope must be that they get there soon enough.

Yes but in NZ the forwards can actually handle the ball, that is the difference.

valjester wrote:If you look at the New Zealand teams they do the same, you always have two forwards on each wing, and their job is to clear the rucks in the wide channel, Munster have a lot of work to do, but the hope must be that they get there soon enough.

Thats what I want to see. The problem is backs aren't taking contact out wide. They are looking for the offload/pass. So it just ends up with a slightly lost looking second row running out of space. If they had strike runners hitting it up out wide and these guys clearing out it might work.

It's going to take Munster a long time to adapt to this new coaching philosophy. We must be patient.

And as rodders says if Brad Thorn gets it on the wing he's a threat. If O'Callaghan gets it, he doesn't know what to do...

Not looking good for Edinburgh at all.

Have Edinburgh ever been nilled twice in a row before?

Notch wrote:He is and he isn't. I'm not singling out DOC, I'm merely using him as an example of whats wrong with Munster.

He could be doing a lot more donkey work if the gameplan gave him license to focus on that.

There are a lot of other things wrong with Munster....

we're fast becoming the laughing stock of Europe. From semi finals to this, in 6 months. Where has it all gone wrong?