Ulster now boasts a squad depth that can challenge Leinster in the league and Heineken Cup

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/19983087

Ulster now boasts a squad depth that can challenge Leinster in the league and Heineken Cup, says Tom Court.

I've been saying for years Ulster are really building back up to being a top team again, since 2006.

Anyways, I think its fair to say we are currently in the chasing pack (with a number of teams) behind Leinster to be best in Europe.

Think its fair to say we're up to second best team in Ireland, (but its close, and changable currently).

However I still don't think that we're at the point to challenge Leinster in the league and Heineken Cup yet.

Leinster are not in top form currently, but when they are I think they are a class above, and with their squad they have managed to keep winning (this year and last) durning what would be injury crisises for other teams.

How far are Ulster from this level?

Under Mark Anscombe we appear to be playing better than last year, all players have upped thier game a level, even the ones not thought to be much more than squad players are playing the best rugby they have ever played, Squad is better as well. But what do we need to do to reach Leinsters Level, or are we there?

Personally I think very few teams can or ever do reach the level Leinster were playing at for last 2 years, and even those teams cannot keep it up, I think that Leinster will find it very hard to reach that level again, they will still be a top team, but instead of being ahead of the chasing pack they will drop down and be among the chasng pack of top teams in Europe. We have a very poor record against Leinster, but I think I can see it being more even this year.
So I don't think we're at a point yet to challenge Leinster in the league and Heineken Cup, I do see that we are getting much closer to them, and maybe even capable of beating them in a big game, I believe that Leinsters performances will drop a level this year (from being the standout team in Europe, to one of the standout teams in Europe), so possibly we are able to challange them this year, but we are not at a point where we could consistantly challange them.

Back to the orginal quote "Ulster now boasts a squad depth that can challenge Leinster in the league and Heineken Cup." Do you agree?

Tom Court is entitled to his opinion.I don't agree at all though.

I think though it has to be said that the influence of foreign players such as Ruan Pienaar, Johann Muller and Tom Court has been immense.

We are now seeing young Ulster guys like Marshall, Gilroy, Jackson and Henderson coming to the fore learning new ideas and improving their game.

The other thing is that Ulster are always just one match away from CRISIS. Not a crisis, but CRISIS where the caps lock are on.

You're just trying to be humble now, H'n'H.

As Tom Berenger said: "Take the pain!!!" (of being top Irish dog )

Ulster are making the most of what they've got and this season they are playing as if they have a point to prove. At the moment they remain a team capable of getting to finals, whether they can take that on to another level remains to be seen. I don't believe they have really been tested this season yet so its probably wise for their fans to enjoy their current form with cautious optimism.

Look, I don't have the patience (or knowledge) to do it, but what we really need here is a 1st XV, 2XV, 3rd XV Head to Head comparison.

Anyone fancy doing it for Ulster / Leinster squads?

It probably won't answer anything, but it would be interesting to look at.

Munster:

1st XV:
Du Preez, Sherry, Botha
Ryan, O'Connell
O'Mahony, Stander, Dougall
Murray, O'Gara
Laulala, Earls
Zebo, Hurley, Howlett

2nd XV:
Kilcoyne, Varley, Archer
O'Callaghan, Holland
O'Callaghan, Coughlan, Ronan
Stringer, Keatley
Downey, Barnes
Murphy, Jones, O'Dea

3rd XV:
Horan, Henry, Ryan
Nagle, Foley
O'Mahony, Butler, O'Donnell
Williams, Hanrahan
Dineen, Smith
Deasy, Scanlon, O'Mahony

Good man Stag!

I actually really like that 2nd string Munster team.

ROG ahead of Keatley?

you lot are on form today

Laulala, Earls
First choice center partnership? I'd have thought Laulala Downey, but that would put either Earls or Zebo into 2nd XV

some tough choices at Munster

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote: you lot are on form today

Ah sure we're on form everyday!

shutupshutupulsterareunderdogsulsterareunderdogsulsterareunderdogs...

The exercise in first XV is a bit reductive, but anyway...

Ulsters First XV;

Court, Best, Afoa
Muller, Tuohy
Ferris, Williams, Henry
Pienaar, Jackson
Wallace, Cave
Trimble, Payne, Bowe

Second XV

Black, Brady, Fitzpatrick
Stevenson, McComb
Henderson, Wilson, Doyle
P. Marshall, N. O'Connor
Gilroy, L. Marshall, Allen, D'Arcy
Nelson

Third XV

Lutton, Herring, Macklin
A. O'Connor, Simpson
McComish, Diack, Birch
Heaney, McCloskey
Cochrane, Olding, A.N Other, Andrew
Scholes

We're light in the centres because of the loss of Nevin Spence and the injury to Farrell. We only have four players at centre. And a long term injury to McAllister leaves us light at loosehead. And realistically Pienaar or Paddy Wallace would play 10 if Jackson was injured but theres a lack of depth there too.

Good man Notch, but i think are we not talking more hypothetically here, and so injuries are irrelevant? I guess i didnt stipulate when i made my request!

It really wasnt far off our 2nd XV there for some of our pre-season matches.

Obv there is a lot of what if about certain combinations. That would seem to be Munsters 1st team.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote: you lot are on form today

Asbo form is temporary class is permanent old boy.

clivemcl wrote:Good man Notch, but i think are we not talking more hypothetically here, and so injuries are irrelevant? I guess i didnt stipulate when i made my request!

It really wasnt far off our 2nd XV there for some of our pre-season matches.

I've never been to see a hypothetical rugby match. Here's a non-hypothetical fact; Chris Farrell and Paddy McAllister will not play any rugby until the 2013/2014 season. Why include them?

I thought Notch that the comparison was on squad building and reflected things like how well we've signed, how many players our acadamies had produced.

If you arn't into hypotheticals then why did you draft up a 3rd XV team whenever 3rdXV teams never play each other.

God, we're into the Roman numerals!! You just know things have gotten serious when the Roman numerals start pushing their weight around.

clivemcl wrote:I thought Notch that the comparison was on squad building and reflected things like how well we've signed, how many players our acadamies had produced.

If you arn't into hypotheticals then why did you draft up a 3rd XV team whenever 3rdXV teams never play each other.

Well why do any of it? I included players who can play for Ulster in the 2012/2013 season and didn't include those who can't. I fail to see the problem.

Problem? I'm not sure Notch? The only problem was you questioning my opinion of whether the the exercise should be hypothetical or not. I'm not sure why it needed to be questioned. It was a suggestion of a way to do the comparison, hardly a demand to argue against.

Eh? Whats the issue?

Noooo!!!! Ulster are in Crisis! .......

Ooops sorry wrong thread....

Seriously though. Look you win nothing in October but I know what I like and like what I see. 6 Months ago I'd have looked around the top teams and said we aren't quite there yet, this year I don't really see many, if any, sides in Europe we can't meet on equal terms. We've won nothing yet but at least we are winning games and putting ourselves in the position to contend for silverware and I hope we can continue to do so over the course of the season.

SUFTUM .

That's not what you were saying a week ago Rodders

These people aren't ready yet Rava

Tou true Rodders.

I think we need to step it up a gear to match the following teams; Northampton Saints, Toulon, Clermont Auvergne and Harlequins. Especially the two French sides. I'm really looking forward to playing Saints because its an exam we need to pass to be considered contenders.

But it's Toulouse, Leinster et al. who also need to step up and will. We are currently Top 8 in Europe and so should be targeting quarter-finals as a minimum.

Here's what I want to see;

1) Better ball retention; we really do lose the ball in contact too much. Knock-ons, holding on, turnovers. We need to protect the ball more, better. Castres showed us up when they went through about 20 phases in our 22 before picking out Andreu out wide.
2) Better clearing out of the ruck. Connacht were allowed to slow us down far too much. The ref let them lie offside and all but we were targeted there and it worked. Unless we get more clinical in how we clear the ruck other teams will too.
3) Better decision making. We've taken points when we needed to go for the jugular. We've taken contact when it needs to go wide. We've went wide when we need to go through the phases. We've offloaded when we need to keep the ball in hand.
4) More variety from 10. Paddy Jackson too often goes for the long pass and our centres are running into brick walls- a running game, a few little kicks in behind to make the opposition turn, these will give 12 and 13 so much more time on the ball. He has these things in his locker. He just needs the confidence to know when to deploy them. This will come with experience.
5) More shape in attack. We look seriously good when we get our attacking play going. But when we get slow we force things. This is related to the point about turnovers. A lot of turnovers we concede happen because when ball gets slow; we lose our shape and patience, ball carriers outrun the support player and get isolated, we force the offload- everyone wants so desperately to make something happen we shoot ourselves in the foot.

It all comes down to more composure. More confidence. I can only see this growing as key combinations get used to working together. I can only see us improving as a side across the course of the season. Right now, I see a lot of unfulfilled potential in Ulster. We're very happy to have won all our competitive games so far- but on another level we are not happy with our season so far because we know we can improve on our performances. We also know if we don't that unbeaten record won't last. Perform against Glasgow tomorrow like we did versus Connacht? We could easily lose?

Don't know if we'll win anything but we have a chance. I could never have dreamt of this three years ago. Not in my wildest dreams. We are transformed since Humphreys came into his job. He's put in place what we were missing all these years; a culture of hard work, team work and competition with a sprinkling of world class individuals. Now I want us to get the above right, to take the final steps towards being a team people are going to really worry about.

That doesn't guarantee silverware though. Ask Clermont.

If being totally honest, I feel we probably weren't the best two teams in Europe last year despite being in the final. Thats the thing about knockout tournaments though. I've always said that leagues give a better indication of how good a team you are generally.

Perhaps we were lucky with injuries compared to most, perhaps other teams were unlucky with injuries. Perhaps great teams got knocked out by silly uncharacteristic mistakes/ off days/ badd reffereeing / dissalowed tries. I could go on. End of the day though we played some good matches and ended up in the Final.

Then came the scoreline. We can't ignore that scoreline. I'm very proud to have seen my team in a HC final, but we have to say, a scoreline like that shouldn't be present in a final of any competition.

I'd LOVE to absolutely smash Leinster some day soon. But hand on heart, I would take another defeat in the final as long as it was tight.

In my mind going toe to toe with leinster and narrowly losing is still a colossal step up from losing 42-14.

I'd say right now, we are capable of what I'm just mentioned. But the beating of Leinster, I think will only come from the points Notch has rightly highlighted above.

If all were fit.

Leinster first XV of:

Healy – Strauss – Ross
Toner – Cullen
O’Brien – Heaslip – Jennings
Reddan – Sexton
Fitzgerald – Darcy – BOD – Nacewa
R. Kearney

With a second XV of :

VDM – Cronin – Bent
Browne – Denton
McLaughlin – Ruddock – Ryan
Boss – Madigan
Conway – McFadden – O’Malley – Carr
D. Kearney

And a third XV of:

McGrath – Sexton – Hagan
Roux – Flanagan
Marshall – Auva’a – Murphy
Cooney – Goodman
Couglan Murray – Reid – Macken – Boyle
Hudson

Leinster first XV of:

Healy – Strauss – Ross
Toner – Cullen
O’Brien – Heaslip – Jennings
Reddan – Sexton
Fitzgerald – Darcy – BOD – Nacewa
R. Kearney

With a second XV of :

VDM – Cronin – Bent
Browne – Denton
McLaughlin – Ruddock – Ryan
Boss – Madigan
Conway – McFadden – O’Malley – Carr
D. Kearney

And a third XV of:

McGrath – Sexton – Hagan
Roux – Flanagan
Marshall – Auva’a – Murphy
Cooney – Goodman
Couglan Murray – Reid – Macken – Boyle
Hudson

Ulsters First XV;

Court, Best, Afoa
Muller, Tuohy
Ferris, Williams, Henry
Pienaar, Jackson
Wallace, Cave
Trimble, Payne, Bowe

Second XV

Black, Brady, Fitzpatrick
Stevenson, McComb
Henderson, Wilson, Doyle
P. Marshall, N. O'Connor
Gilroy, L. Marshall, Allen, D'Arcy
Nelson

Third XV

Lutton, Herring, Macklin
A. O'Connor, Simpson
McComish, Diack, Birch
Heaney, McCloskey
Cochrane, Olding, A.N Other, Andrew
Scholes


Munster:

1st XV:
Du Preez, Sherry, Botha
Ryan, O'Connell
O'Mahony, Stander, Dougall
Murray, O'Gara
Laulala, Earls
Zebo, Hurley, Howlett

2nd XV:
Kilcoyne, Varley, Archer
O'Callaghan, Holland
O'Callaghan, Coughlan, Ronan
Stringer, Keatley
Downey, Barnes
Murphy, Jones, O'Dea

3rd XV:
Horan, Henry, Ryan
Nagle, Foley
O'Mahony, Butler, O'Donnell
Williams, Hanrahan
Dineen, Smith
Deasy, Scanlon, O'Mahony


now we can compare.

Can't believe yous two arged over McAl and Allan and stuff

Also look on with envy Regions, (ahahahahaha)

Leinster first XV of:

Healy – Strauss – Ross
Toner – Cullen
O’Brien – Heaslip – Jennings
Reddan – Sexton
Fitzgerald – Darcy – BOD – Nacewa
R. Kearney

Ulsters First XV;

Court, Best, Afoa
Muller, Tuohy
Ferris, Williams, Henry
Pienaar, Jackson
Wallace, Cave
Trimble, Payne, Bowe

Munster:

1st XV:
Du Preez, Sherry, Botha
Ryan, O'Connell
O'Mahony, Stander, Dougall
Murray, O'Gara
Laulala, Earls
Zebo, Hurley, Howlett

Leinster 2nd XV

VDM – Cronin – Bent
Browne – Denton
McLaughlin – Ruddock – Ryan
Boss – Madigan
Conway – McFadden – O’Malley – Carr
D. Kearney
Second XV

Black, Brady, Fitzpatrick
Stevenson, McComb
Henderson, Wilson, Doyle
P. Marshall, N. O'Connor
Gilroy, L. Marshall, Allen, D'Arcy
Nelson


2nd XV:
Kilcoyne, Varley, Archer
O'Callaghan, Holland
O'Callaghan, Coughlan, Ronan
Stringer, Keatley
Downey, Barnes
Murphy, Jones, O'Dea

third XV of:

McGrath – Sexton – Hagan
Roux – Flanagan
Marshall – Auva’a – Murphy
Cooney – Goodman
Couglan Murray – Reid – Macken – Boyle
Hudson

Lutton, Herring, Macklin
A. O'Connor, Simpson
McComish, Diack, Birch
Heaney, McCloskey
Cochrane, Olding, A.N Other, Andrew
Scholes

Horan, Henry, Ryan
Nagle, Foley
O'Mahony, Butler, O'Donnell
Williams, Hanrahan
Dineen, Smith
Deasy, Scanlon, O'Mahony

Leinster are weak in the second row, arguably even our first choice pairing aren't great so far this season.

Mickado wrote:Leinster are weak in the second row, arguably even our first choice pairing aren't great so far this season.

Noticed that Mick. Could be a big worry as the season progresses. What's the chances of another "Brad Thorn" signing?

I’d say very unlikely, BBBT has signed for the Highlanders so I doubt he’ll be back to us.

No harm really, we can’t live on short term solutions for long. I wouldn’t mind us trying to sign a marquee non-irish lock next year though, it’s the only position we really need some outside talent coming in and with the likes of Henderson, Ryan, Touhy etc. Ireland aren’t lacking in that area.

Lock is poor in Leinster, Munster's 3rd choice pair would be better than Leinsters second and you could argue they could challange Leinsters 1st's.

Everyone seam good in the back row

over all think everyone can be happy with the depth, except Leinster at Lock.

Kingshu wrote:Can't believe yous two arged over McAl and Allan and stuff

Neither can I mate!

And us at ten, King.

Don Alfonso wrote:And us at ten, King.

Yeap thats true, I just hasn't wanting to highlight our weakness there.

To be fair NoC gets a lot of flack, I don't think he played that bad, at start of season, if you forget about the place kicking.

I'll be intrested to see how he goes with Pienaar beside him, and taking the place kicks. I think it will take a lot of pressure of him, and he we do a decent job.

He was going ok in Connacht and hopefully he can refind that with Pienaar helping him.

He did really though Kingshu. I was arguing against his critics and saying he deserves a chance- he did and maybe will do again, and the flak he was getting before the Os game wasn't fair- but lets not pretend it wasn't a disaster.

Not only was his kicking poor, he effectively took his centres out of the game and therefore our whole backline. Sometimes 10s who can't get a backline moving as well as others are prized highly, but this is because of their kicking game. Consider his performance against the Ospreys; NOC was kicking equally poorly from hand and at posts. Positionally he was poor, too far behind the gain line to give us a chance of getting front foot ball and handicapping our backs, and his decision making was slow, tentative and frequently he made poor choices.

So, I mean, there wasn't really anything you can say was positive about him from that game at the Liberty. The other games he played he was just very, very average and pedestrian. He's not a write off but he's also not good enough to be more than a back-up unless he improves significantly. The place kicking is in no way my biggest issue with him as a player.

I'd agree with that Notch, place kicking aside I thought he was ok against Glasgow.

I don't think he'll be good or anything, but what I hope is with Pienaar he'll have solid performances, won't be pushing Jackson, but Jackson can't play every game, in next round of Pro 12 games I think we'll see him with Pienaar and Jackson rested. I just hope hes puts in a good shift, all I really want is to do the Basics right. If he can do that they he will be Valueable to the squad.