England u17 and u18 squads announced

Given the good conversion rate to AP rugby and England of recent times there are probably quite a few players here we'll be hearing a lot more from. Not that many here I know: Chisholm, Itoje, Kibirige. Any potential superstars here?


England Under 18 squad 2012-13
Name (School) (Club)

Forwards

Alfie Barron (Millfield) (Bath Rugby)
Matt Bolwell (Truro College) (Exeter Chiefs)
Andrew Boyce (Kings Worcester) (Worcester Warriors)
Luke Chapman (Truro College) (Exeter Chiefs)
James Chisholm (Brighton College) (Harlequins)
Tom Ellis (Millfield) (Bath Rugby)
Charlie Ewels (Bryanston) (Bath Rugby)
Charlie Hewitt (Ivybridge College) (Exeter Chiefs)
Paul Hill (Prince Henry's Grammar) (Leeds Carnegie)
Maro Itoje (Harrow) (Saracens)
Sam James (Bishop's Stortford) (Saracens)
Jonny Kenny (Macclesfield) (Sale Sharks)#
Alex Lundberg (Hampton School) (London Wasps)
Reece Marshall (Moulton College) (Northampton Saints)
Cameron Neild (Manchester Grammar) (Sale Sharks)~
Jordan Onojaife (Stowe) (Northampton Saints)
Will Owen (QE Leicester) (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Woolstencroft (Bryanston) (Bath Rugby)

Backs

Zach Kibirige (Yarm School) (Newcastle Falcons)
David Buck (Sherbone School) (Bath Rugby)
Nathan Earle (Oaklands College) (Saracens)
Nick Carpenter (Filton College) (Bristol Rugby)
Louis Clayton-Molloy (Harrow School) (London Wasps)
Tom Fowlie (St Paul’s Catholic College) (London Irish)
Tom Howe (Shiplake College) (London Wasps)
Tom Hudson (QE Leicester) (Leicester Tigers)
Richard Mathieson (St Pauls Barnes) (London Wasps)
James Mitchell (Lymm School) (Sale Sharks)
Sam Olver (Oundle School) (Northampton Saints)
Howard Packman (Moulton College) (Northampton Saints)
Josh Sharp (Oaklands College) (Saracens)
Nick Tompkins (Oaklands College) (Saracens)
Stuart Townsend (Ivybridge Community College) (Exeter Chiefs)

England Under 17 squad 2012-13
Name (School) (Club)

Forwards


Ollie Adams (St Paul’s Catholic College) (London Irish)
Seb Adeniran-Olule (Wellington College) (Harlequins)
Charlie Beckett (QE Leicester) (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Blandford (Tonbridge) (London Wasps)
Guy Borrowdale (Prince Henry's) (Leeds Carnegie)
Lewis Boyce (Prince Henry's) (Leeds Carnegie)
Henry Cheeseman (Whitgift) (Harlequins)
George Edgson (Hartpury College) (London Wasps)
Josh Ibuanokpe (Dulwich College) (Harlequins)
Ciaran Parker (St Ambrose) (Sale Sharks)
Josh Peters (Oundle School) (Northampton Saints)
Dan Preston-Routledge (Prince Henry's) (Leeds Carnegie)
Sam Smith (Old Swinford Hospital) (Worcester Warriors)
Huw Taylor (Old Swinford Hospital) (Worcester Warriors)
Henry Turner (Ivybrideg Community College) (Exeter Chiefs)
Sam Underhill (Sir Thomas Rich’s School) (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Walker (Prince Henry's) (Leeds Carnegie)
Karl Wilkins (St Joseph’s College) (Northampton Saints)

Backs

Sam Allan (Crossley Heath School) (Leeds Carnegie)
Austin Beckett (St Joseph’s College) (Northampton Saints)
Theo Brophy-Clews (Abingdon School) (London Irish)
Max Clark (Bryanston School) (Bath Rugby)
Joel Harvey (Harrow School) (London Wasps)
Brett Herron (Wellington College) (London Irish)
Will Homer (Sherborne) (Bath Rugby)
Owain James (Harrow School) (London Wasps)
Rory Jennings (Bryanston School) (Bath Rugby)
Harry Lightfoot-Brown (St Pauls College) (London Irish)
Jack Maplesden (Woodhouse Grove) (Unattached)
Nick Rawsthorne (Prince Henry's) (Leeds Carnegie)
Rotimi Segun (Northampton SfB) (Northampton Saints)
Ollie Thorley (Cheltenham College) (Gloucester Rugby)
George Wacokecoke (St Joseph’s College) (Northampton Saints)
Luke Wilson (Brinkburn College) (Newcastle Falcons)

Itoje is apparently already 17 1/2 stone at 17!

I hope he'll focus on lock rather than 6, but by all accounts an exceptional talent. Talking of which I presume Sisi is injured as he hasn't featured for LI this season that I've seen - he was even bigger at that age I think.

And Chisholm is a talent by all accounts, 8 for the future

Another off the Quins No.8 production line.

Zach Kibirige is a serious prospect on the wing.....

Chisholm is one to watch.

Worryingly few Falcons in those squads, you used to able to guarantee that we'd contribute at least 2-3 to each. Hopefully the production one will click back into action soon.

Cumbrian...i have absolutely no doubt that its in full production again...and soon we will see more following kibirige, Scott Wilson etc.

67 players, so 2 is disappointing, but then Tigers only have 3.

Great to see Leeds contributing 7 players. I believe they have a very strong group coming through and that this number may increase over the course of the season.

Kibirige does look a prospect. But where is Robinson?

Over that age group mate.

Leeds have always had a strong academy aswell...they've priduced loads of top players...

How old is he?

Yes, though I think they had a little drop off recently. I really want to see strong teams and academies at Sale, Leeds and Newcastle as this can only be good for English rugby.

I think Prince Henry's in Otley has become the Carnegie Academy annex. Outstanding representation for a single school. Well done the coaching staff there. The age groups endlessly generate real hope for the future of English rugby but seems all to often to founder on the rocks of club failures in development and Saxons/ EPL selection.

Came up against Itoje last season at the Dragons... WOW he was effective. But then being effective at 16/17 at age grade level and effective in the full game are 2 different things!

aitchw wrote:I think Prince Henry's in Otley has become the Carnegie Academy annex. Outstanding representation for a single school. Well done the coaching staff there. The age groups endlessly generate real hope for the future of English rugby but seems all to often to founder on the rocks of club failures in development and Saxons/ EPL selection.

I don't see much foundering. Compare English rugby with where to was 4 years ago in term sof the options available to coaches and the number of young players playing both for AP sides and for the national team. The academies are working, and English professional rugby is grandually reaping the benefits.

DaveM wrote:

aitchw wrote:I think Prince Henry's in Otley has become the Carnegie Academy annex. Outstanding representation for a single school. Well done the coaching staff there. The age groups endlessly generate real hope for the future of English rugby but seems all to often to founder on the rocks of club failures in development and Saxons/ EPL selection.

I don't see much foundering. Compare English rugby with where to was 4 years ago in term sof the options available to coaches and the number of young players playing both for AP sides and for the national team. The academies are working, and English professional rugby is grandually reaping the benefits.

It's working as well as it can in that it's getting young players into playing regularly and, in most cases, improving them as players. But it's failing in that I don't think the Prem is strong enough. It's another debate obviously and I know most disagree with me, but compare the Prem with the the Super 15 and the exposure that young players get there and it's worlds apart.

Looking forward to seeing how Kibirige goes at this level.

The Falcons Academy has be VERY poor for a number of years and I suspect they got a big wake up call from the RFU recently. They certainly seem to be making more effort at the moment.

2 to watch in the 17s are Jack Walker & Lewis Boyce. Both are prodigious talents with Walker being the most natural rugby player I have ever seen. He is currently a hooker but could just as easily play at 10.

That said, there are 1 or 2 names in there that puzzle me with their inclusion.

The Falcons Academy has be VERY poor for a number of years and I suspect they got a big wake up call from the RFU recently

No it hasnt ...its just been having a rest...but its back working furiously now.

How would it get a wake up call from the RFU? Its not like its getting any money for producing a constant stream of internationals??...oh and a stream thats about to kick on again...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

The Falcons Academy has be VERY poor for a number of years and I suspect they got a big wake up call from the RFU recently

No it hasnt ...its just been having a rest...but its back working furiously now.

How would it get a wake up call from the RFU? Its not like its getting any money for producing a constant stream of internationals??...oh and a stream thats about to kick on again...

The RFU apparently invest £2.5 million in the 14 RFU Academies, of which Falcons is one. Word on the street is that the Falcons were on the brink of losing the funding. Comparing the Player Development work done by many other Academies, it was easy to see why.

Really...i think the word on the street is way off the mark. The RFU would be cutting their nose off mate.

We produce a hefty number of players and will continue to do so more than most clubs in the top two tiers of English rugby.

If thats the case...we'll persuade the new starlets to go to across the border to Scotland.

PS...also..that figure works out roughly £170000 per club.

Is that really alot of money?

We currently have the following who "should" potentially reach Saxons level or above
Kibirige Winger(starting his first game for the seniors tonight at 17)
Scott Wilson TH
Joe Robinson Back Row
Mark Wilson Back Row

And severl that "could possibly" reach it...
Hallam LH
Ben Morris back Rower

All of these will have had first team rugby by the end of the season.

Are you telling me just for those 6 alone the £170,000 will have covered the cost of developing them...let alone the others coming through.

What about the cost of bringing through the likes of Alex gray, Keiran Brookes etc...just to get them swiped away from us...no compensation there is there?

Sam Underhill (Sir Thomas Rich’s School) (Gloucester Rugby)

Tommies 'till I die

EnglishReign Sam Underhill is a tackling machine, love watching him play.

GeordieFalcon I think £170k is a shed load of money. I have watched the Falcons Elite Player Development Programme for the past 3 years and have spoken to many involved. Compared to the likes of Leeds, Northampton Saracens, Leicester etc etc their programme has been nothing shot of a joke, with squads thrown together at the last minute for benchmarking festivals, with the result that the team would usually get hammered by all and sundry. Wilson and Kibirige are obvious talents but there was loads of talent out there that was not obvious ie not at a rugby-playing public school, that was not picked up.
If you look at the Leeds Carnegie players in the above 2 squads you will see that not one is from a public school, Falcons are working hard to improve their EPDG, and about time to.

Compared to the likes of Leeds, Northampton Saracens, Leicester etc etc their programme has been nothing shot of a joke,

I stopped reading after that....

Why?

Because you obviously dont know what your talking about.

Would you like to elaborate on which specific points I have made that are incorrect?

The part i highlighted above.

I have been the first to admit on the field we have been attrocious...much down to very poor management...and we should have been relegated the last four years.

But to say our development process is nothing short of a joke ...is a joke of a comment in itself.

We have produced a stream of England and Saxon players not forgetting high numbers of other non internationals currently playing for sides in the premiership...and we will continue to do so.
We have had a major problem keeping hoold of player yes....develpping them...Absolutely not!

Please prove to me how much better the teams you listed are compared to the Falcons academy?

At u16 The Falcons Academy side has been, over recent years, very poor due to the lack of time, effort and rescource put in by Falcons. There is an Academy U18 set of fixtures coming up put in place by the RFU , starting 15th December, We shall see what happens.

FWIW I am based in the Falcons catchment area and have witnessed first hand the difference in standards between the Newcastle setup and the one based in Leeds. One goes out and finds potential stars and develops them, the other wants (wanted) them handed on a plate.

I desperately wish it was the other way around as Falcons are my local team and I love going to KP.