Trump International Golf Links

Very interesting documentary worth watching was on BBC2 last night.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01nln7g/Youve_Been_Trumped/

After watching it, I have no urge to play there after what that man has done to the local people. Nor did it put the local police in a good light either.

Why? What on earth has he done? Are there bodies buried under the fairways??

A programme entitled "You've been trumped" is hardly going to have a neutral agenda.

Watch it and then make a more mature reply.

I don't need to watch it. I live in Aberdeen, have seen the course, seen what it can do for the area. No interest in a few beligerant local pikeys complaining.

Not you SR, I was referring to JAS and his "buried bodies" reply.

Oh, sorry Emm, I can understand the resentment towards the project. You'll always have objection like this, especially for those outside of the area and from a liberal viewpoint.

I think economically it could be very useful in the long term for many not involved in Oil and Gas like restaurants, hoteliers, taxi drivers etc.

That may be true SR but he used Irish contractors to build it, will likely to employ many non-nationals as staff.

There was one bit last night when they torn down a fence as they claimed it was on his land then billed the owner of home 50% of the cost of the new fence. I appreciate it business but in this instance I feel it was wrong. Why does Scotland need another golf course anyway? There are already plenty especially in and around the areas of the Trump one.

I don't see anything wrong with using Foreign people. It's all employment, and every industry does the same.

Does Scotland need a new course. Possibly not, but this area will benefit hugely from it as it's currently a long long way behind Fife, Lothian, Ayrshire into the number of tourists and tourist dollars it gets.

Now it has Trump, Royal Aberdeen as two top class courses with Carnoustie just down the road it could make it a must visit destination. Many of the other courses, Murcar aside are pretty poor.

Yes, there have without doubt been a few dodgy business dealings, some anti social policies used but in the long term, for the area, it is undoubtedly a plus, although for a small minority it won't be, but like you say, business is business and you can't please everyone.

Saw most of it last night.

I'm generally very wary of one-sided documentaries, but if there's truth behind the worst accusations of how the Trump organisation has been treating folks in Aberdeenshire and/or sell-out by the Scottish government, then that is enough to change my view of the project. I can't say I was totally convinced by any of the other anti-Trump arguments though.

Ok, Emm, I'll leave out the feciatious 2nd question and just ask why would you not play a course because you've watched a (one sided) documentary and formed a (clearly negative) opinion of the place. Nothing wrong in that I suppose we each have our own set of principles.

I just wouldn't restrict myself in that way. I don't think much of Trump as a person to be honest so I tended to look at it as the new Hawtree designed course. As a course it IS a design masterpiece and will mature into a certainly top 10 in the country course, it ISN'T yet properly ready tho. Currently RA is an infinitely better day out but it's good to have both in the area as well as Cruden Bay and Murcar.

Do you know all about the history of courses you've played? I.e. we're they all built without any planning permission issues and without using slave labour? Were the landowners in the surrounding areas happy with the development etc etc....Maybe you know maybe you don't. But in Trump's Balmenie course you do know all the ins and outs of the locals jealously and bitterness because they've been very vocal about it and been given airtime by a scandal stirring documentary.

Each to their own but I've played, enjoyed it and would play it again when it has properly matured.

JAS ... curious to know to which "locals" you refer. Would those be the ones who for many months lived under the threat of cpos?

Jas not sure what “top 10” trumpton will end up in but not the top ten in Scotland. Are you forgetting a few of our top courses?

TOC
North Beriwck
Muirfield
carnoustie
Turnberry
Dornoch
Renaissance
Kingsbarnes
Royal Aberdeen
Troon
cruden bay
Western Gails
Machrihanish
Castle Stuart

If we consider what has been built this century, trumpton will not even make the top 5

Machrihanish dunes
Castle stuart
trcaa
castle course
Kingsbarnes (opened july 2000)




Super

Without the full development coming to fruition your claims of benefits to the local economy may be a little exaggerated. At the moment the hotel and villa complex seems to have been called off indefinitely. The low wage staff needed to keep the course running will not add a great deal to the prosperity of Aberdeen.

And I can’t even be bothered to try and explain to you again the massive costs to society when areas such as an SSSI are destroyed. This alone will offset the piddling economic benefits of a golf course operation.

Mac, we've had this argument in relation to the coastal implications before, and you had no idea then, so lets not go into that again.

From what I've heard and seen Trump is better than Kingsbarns and Castle Stuart.

Never mind Mac, the dune may yet have the final word. Only part of it has been stabilised and I'm given to understand there continue to be problems with excessive amounts of sand blowing across some sections of the course. One is therefore forced to conclude that unless Trump stabilises the entire dune system, this will be an ongoing problem.

Here we go again Gael. You aren't a coastal engineer so you don't know what and how they have done it.

Sounds a bit like every club member telling the club greenkeeper how to do their job at the AGM.

Super

If the dune collapses onto the course you don’t need a coastal engineer to determine that is bad news. If trump has to keep sinking more cash into dune stabilisation – wiping any profit – don’t be surprised if he walks away having made none of the £1 billion investment promised.

Mac, having played quite a few of those I would keep the following above it.

Royal Dornoch
Carnoustie
Turnberry
Royal Aberdeen

I expect after I've played them next March I'll confidently be able to add Muirfield & North Berwick to that list.

I've played KB, Castle Stuart, Western Gailes and whilst currently they may have an edge because they are mature or at least a certain level of maturity, Trumps, when it matures will overtake that very select group.

Incidentally, you included Rennaisance but not Loch Lomond in your list??

Mac, having played quite a few of those I would keep the following above it.

Royal Dornoch
Carnoustie
Turnberry
Royal Aberdeen

I expect after I've played them next March I'll confidently be able to add Muirfield & North Berwick to that list.

I've played KB, Castle Stuart, Western Gailes and whilst currently they may have an edge because they are mature or at least a certain level of maturity, Trumps, when it matures will overtake that very select group.

Incidentally, you included Rennaisance but not Loch Lomond in your list??

Not telling anyone how to do their job but if the report I read is correct then what pray is going to stop what is after all a moving force of nature from strutting its stuff?

McLaren wrote:Super

If the dune collapses onto the course you don’t need a coastal engineer to determine that is bad news. If trump has to keep sinking more cash into dune stabilisation – wiping any profit – don’t be surprised if he walks away having made none of the £1 billion investment promised.

Mac, why would the dune collapse, it didn't before. There is nothing to suggest it will now. It's an area of rich agradation, not degradation/erosion

They have more erosion at St.Andrews, it's not hard to slow down and shape to your requirements as they have done, and relatively inexpensively too.

Jas

“Incidentally, you included Rennaisance but not Loch Lomond in your list”

I don’t get what you mean?

Loch Lomond is no where near the quality of design that the course at trcaa has. trcaa’s greens are probably only bettered by TOC in Scotland. I just don’t rate loch lommond.

Mac, I'm interested to see what is so great about TOC's greens. They aren't all that special, and are often like the back of a digestive biscuit.

gaelgowfer wrote:Not telling anyone how to do their job but if the report I read is correct then what pray is going to stop what is after all a moving force of nature from strutting its stuff?

Probably nothing Gael but....moving dunes are NOT unique to Balmenie although to be fair I'm not party to the information on the extent of the movement.

When StEnodoc in Cornwall was being constructed at the back end of last century they actually uncovered the Church where Sir John Betjamin was buried (it had been totally covered in sand). That represents an astonishing movement in sand and dune activity. A century or so later St Enodoc's church course still circles the old church with little or no required activity from greenkeeping staff (as far as I know) keeping excess sand off the course.

I'm therefore not sure about how much of the "moving dunes" tack is actually just scaremongering. Also, given the other places/projects where Hawtree has worked I'd imagine he has a fair idea of what he's doing and not completely naive...I could be wrong of course.

All dunes move. It's how they came to exist in the first place. THe notion Balmedie is unique simply isn't true.

McLaren wrote:Jas

“Incidentally, you included Rennaisance but not Loch Lomond in your list”

I don’t get what you mean?

Loch Lomond is no where near the quality of design that the course at trcaa has. trcaa’s greens are probably only bettered by TOC in Scotland. I just don’t rate loch lommond.

Ah...so it's not one of the universally accepted Top 10/Top 100 lists you're on about, it's your own personal one...which is based on?? Having played them? Doak bible entry? What?

It is based on a combination of what I have played and some of the top 100 lists. I will not bother to argue about the order but the courses I listed are the best in Scotland. Trumpton will not surpass any of them. Loch Lomond is not in those courses league.

Doak's books are a small part of the reading I have carried out in order to learn more about golf course architecture. It would be odd to ignore one of the best current architects when learning about a subject you enjoy.

So anyway, Loch Lomond misses out in being one of the best courses in scotland because Scotland has a lot of other very good courses, not some crack pot love of one mans writings.

Mac, if Trump was built by someone else, perhaps designed by Doak and in an area that was less contentious you'd be climaxing in your trousers.

You are letting your prejudice against the course get in the way of a reasonable judgement.

super

please read this; http://scottishwildlifetrust.org.uk/docs/027__104__special_interest_leaflets__Trump_development___background_to_our_objection__1304775981.pdf

Mac,, being googling again to support your view? Plus it's from 2006, based on old plans.
I don't care about the Wildlife. People react as if this is the first development that has ever been had a conflict.

I see your point of view, I just don't agree with it.

Fair enough, I haven't played Loch Lomond myself although I have seen it featured prominently on most lists. Not being easily accessible to the general golfing public does a course no favours in my personal ratings but thats just me. Personally I'd also add Old Prestwick and Nairn to your list and you pretty much have all the top courses in Scotland listed. Oh and Dundonald too. But to be honest you can't leave Trumps out of that list for too long, it will take its place amongst that list.

DOn't apologise JAS, Nac hasn't played it either, so he doens't know anymore than you.

He also regularly slates The Castle, despite it being a masterpiece of every type of design he claims to consider important in golf course design.

Seeing is believing JAS ...

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/scotnews12/120715-erosion.html

Of course, it's always possible those jealous and bitter locals to whom you referred to earlier breached security and dumped all that sand on the course.

This extract is speshully for s_r ...

"He continued: "In a place like St Andrews you have to clear fairways very rarely because it is such a stable system, but Menie is such a dynamic and moving system, it will have to be done quite a lot."

I've mentioned previously that Golf World had Trump Int'l as the highest ever new entrant on its biennial Top 100 courses in GB&I. [#8 or something like that?]

They acknowledged that it was controversial to place a completely new course so high when so few have played it and the course hasn't matured, but they claim that they really were that impressed. I had and continue to have a sneaking suspicion though that they may have been slightly biased (e.g. because they were the first ever people allowed to play the course, maybe Trump gave them access in return for a favourable write-up etc).

One of the problems I had with the documentary was that there was no attempt to provide footage of the completed course (only ugly scenes during construction), nor interview anyone who had played it and who may have had a view on the benefits it will bring to the local economy (or not as the case may be).

However, as I said above, the "moral" issues of what is right and wrong rather than anything else (e.g. economics, science, sentiment towards Trump) would probably inform my overall view if the worst claims of behaviour are true.

Gael, there's bound to be some settling required, dunes are mobile after all and all courses require maturation. St.Andrews, when it would would probably have been the same. There are still ongoing erosion issues there as like any location, you constantly fight nature in terms of the sediment cycle.

super_realist wrote:Mac, if Trump was built by someone else, perhaps designed by Doak and in an area that was less contentious you'd be climaxing in your trousers.

You are letting your prejudice against the course get in the way of a reasonable judgement.

Pretty much hits the nail on the head Super for everyone who's dissing the course. It's not the course, it's the course owner and its quite odd how so many are allowing their judgement of the course itself to be affected by who the owner is.

super_realist wrote:Gael, there's bound to be some settling required, dunes are mobile after all and all courses require maturation. St.Andrews, when it would would probably have been the same. There are still ongoing erosion issues there as like any location, you constantly fight nature in terms of the sediment cycle.

Yeah, hundreds, perhaps thousands, of years ago! Really s_r, you talk like this is going to happen in the course of the next few years. The course will indeed settle and mature and I daresay there will be some design changes along the way too but it won't alter the fact that the menie dune is, at this point in history, still one of the biggest dune systems in Britain. You don't have to be any kind of engineer to understand the ramifications of such a dune living alongside a brand new golf course. It's just plain and simple common sense.

super_realist wrote:I don't need to watch it. I live in Aberdeen, have seen the course, seen what it can do for the area. No interest in a few beligerant local pikeys complaining.

I think you'd sing a different tune if you were one of those that Trump rode roughshod over.

JAS wrote:...I just wouldn't restrict myself in that way...

If you extrapolate that sentiment JAS, you'd happily play a course funded by, lets say, Mugabe, just because it happened to be a good course?


Sounds like Trumpton may have a few issues in the future. Good.

JAS wrote:

super_realist wrote:Mac, if Trump was built by someone else, perhaps designed by Doak and in an area that was less contentious you'd be climaxing in your trousers.

You are letting your prejudice against the course get in the way of a reasonable judgement.

Pretty much hits the nail on the head Super for everyone who's dissing the course. It's not the course, it's the course owner and its quite odd how so many are allowing their judgement of the course itself to be affected by who the owner is.

Of course it's the courses owner. How could it be otherwise? Anyone with his funds and (lack of) morals can make a good course.

Jas

“so many are allowing their judgement of the course itself to be affected by who the owner is.”

What is the point coming on a forum to debate with others if you are going to dictate their opinions?

You are completely wrong to say I do not rate the course based on the owner. I think the course looks like it could have been a lot better based on simple facts like too many raised tee’s, narrow playing corridors, too much rough, lack of chance for recovery around the greens, poor options from the tee etc.

If someone else had built it somewhere else a few things would hopefully be true;

The site would be suitable for development
locals would not have been bullied out of homes
a more appropriate design and routing would have been used for the course.

So really it makes little sense to remove the poor course design and inappropriateness of the site from the argument.

JAS, the documentary was one-sided but then how else are a small group of fiscally-challenged homeowners going to fight corporate thuggery?

super_realist wrote:All dunes move. It's how they came to exist in the first place. THe notion Balmedie is unique simply isn't true.

I think I'd have to disagree. The dunes he built the course on are unique as they start at the sea and come in at least half a mile in places so almost every hole has dunes on both sides. If you take Royal Aberdeen or Cruden Bay as examples of good links couses they only have a narrow strip of dunes on one side and more of a small cliff on the other side as the farm land changes into links ground.

I recall you saying a long time ago you were considering coming to Aberdeen. Which course did you join in Aberdeen? My guess would be Murcar given no waiting list, good course, good practice facilities and a lot of low handicappers already.

I did move to Aberdeen, I didn't join a course as I'm still at St.Andrews and another down there.

The trouble most people here seem to have is that they seem to think that the courses like TOC, Dornoch etc were then built on fully mature dunes without any disruption or problems at all.
There were also radically different places at point of construction and have changed drastically over time.

Trumps course will of course realise this is likely to happen and have plans in place to modify course etc with the changes in conditions.

I have never said it would take a "few years", but as Gael has never seen the course and I have and can look at it from a different perspective than her prejudiced view and anti Trump stance I can see that A) it is not as harmful to the dunes as she thinks, B) isn't likely to undergo massive erosional issues and C) really hasn't changed the overall dynamic in terms of of the dune system stability at all, but then again she's an engineer so she'd know all that

This unique dunes issue....of course they're unique....show me 2 sets of dunes from ANYWHERE in the world that are identical.

Navy, i can see the point that you're trying to make re a Mugabe funded course but it's a bit of a moot point as I don't see him being able or willing to invest in a golf course project anywhere in the world that I'd be willing to travel to.

Like I said, each to their own principles and I do have mine, I'm just saying they're not structured such that I'd rule out the chance of playing a spectacular golf course because of the business practices of the owner.

At the end of the day I'm quite happy for loads and loads of golfers to be contentious objectors to the whole thing....that should mean less pressure on teetimes for those that do want to play it. If the anti-trump sentiment continues to grow then demand may start to fall away and they'll have to think about lowering prices...even better!!

Exactly, let me know if you fancy a game JAS next year, I get residents rates so we'll split the difference.

Sounds like a plan Super, definitely doing the Tassie again next year so will probably want to do it at the end of the Tassie, never managed Cruden Bay this year so will probably want to squeeze that in next year.

I know D4S is itching to play it too and he's doing the Eden next year (again) so there may be a group of them want to play it either side of the Eden week.

Within the last year I've played Muirfield, Carnoustie, Castle Stuart and Trump Int'l all of which I enjoyed immensely. However, even at this early stage taking in to account aesthetics, design and general play I would put Trump Int'l at the the top. We sneaked on to the Black tee for the 18th, awesome, best hole I've ever played.

I haven't heard anyone say they don't like it.

Chap I played with is plus 2 and has played pretty much every top course in Scotland and he puts it at the top too. Lost 5 balls mind you!