Trump International Golf Links

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Very interesting documentary worth watching was on BBC2 last night.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01nln7g/Youve_Been_Trumped/

After watching it, I have no urge to play there after what that man has done to the local people. Nor did it put the local police in a good light either.

Mac ... perhaps s_r has been practising his fracking!

Related to one of my previous jobs though Gael, Coastal Engineering. I could sort it for him, be a price involved though.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scottish-news/top-stories/donald-trump-s-golf-course-ruptured-by-weather-1-2740884

“These landslides are directly on the dune line, which are always shifting due to the weather.

“Just because there’s a golf course built on them, doesn’t mean that this would change.

“To expect the greens and the tees not to go with the sand dunes is just ridiculous.”

“You’ve got the spring storms which we’re still expecting to hit in March and April, which will just come ripping in.

Poetic justice I say.

Hardly, happens to a great deal of golf courses on the east coast in winter.

Notably Montrose and St.Andrews in recent years.

It's not a design fault from Trump, but something that would have been anticipated and dealt with.

i noticed quite a lot of erosion and beach stones whipped up onto the course at my away course up north on my recent visit. cest la vie nes pa

Looks like cart path more than fairway or green that bore the brunt, not exactly the sensational disaster a few would like it to be. Also not unique either, Castle Stuart had a wee slippage did it not??

At the prices he's charging I'm sure he'll have the money for repairs.

JAS wrote:Looks like cart path more than fairway or green that bore the brunt, not exactly the sensational disaster a few would like it to be. Also not unique either, Castle Stuart had a wee slippage did it not??

At the prices he's charging I'm sure he'll have the money for repairs.

Fair point about Castle Stuart but with one caveat: I'm given understand CS wanted to put in drainage in the affected area but they couldn't get planning permission as that stretch of coastline is an SSSI. Needless to say ... it's in now!

I've made this point before but some of you are so bewitched and befuddled by what is just another golf course that you still seem blind to the fact that this dune is meant to move. Indeed, from what I can gather, there appear to be drainage problems in other parts of the course and Trump property as well.

Gael, all dune systems move, not just this one, so every course built by the sea like this is going to suffer erosion occasionally and at times the opposite, the vast majority of this course does not affect the mobile parts of the system as it is primarily built on the mature and stable sections and erosion like this is expected in winter in areas that lie by the coast, particularly in the east.
It is not a big deal at all and when you read the story and see the pictures you wonder why on earth they are bothering to report it. If it was cruden bay, montrose, murcar etc which could all have the same issue, the lazy journalists are being emotive by trying to make a story out of it and sucker people like you in because its on trump course. By the way this is straight forward undercutting by wave action and not remotely related to whether the dune is mobile or not.

Compared to the Lincolnshire coast this nothing at all and the journalists involved should be ashamed they covered such a trivial story. It's really no more newsworthy than 'man hits thumb with hammer'

gaelgowfer wrote:Mac ... perhaps s_r has been practising his fracking!

I would imagine that he spends a fair amount of his time fracking, given the lack of the real thing in his life.

I wonder. How long before trump has to make a similar admission about the greatest course in the world?


Sutton bay is a course built on shifting land forms, "carved out of the dramatic landforms of the Missouri river and breaks" in South Dakota. It seems the stress of maintaining a course on such unstable land has taken its toll and a new course will have to be constructed.

Here is the letter the owner had to write to the to the members in 2011 to inform them that the course will probably have to be abandoned;

"Dear Sutton Bay Members:

I write this letter after significant personal reflection and many hours and months of discussion, contemplation, and planning by the Sutton Bay ownership group.

We have looked back at the early development of Sutton Bay and reviewed the primary tenants that drove our group to create Sutton Bay. First and foremost, we were committed to developing a unique world-class private club and operate it in a like manner. The growth of our membership at Sutton Bay has been steady over the past 9 years, even in the face of some of the most challenging economic times in the past 50 years. The primary reason each of you joined the club is as varied as where you call home, yet your expectations are on par with the ownership group.

Since we opened Sutton Bay in 2003 our motto has been, “to provide each and every member and guest with a unique and memorable experience each time you visit Sutton Bay.” That memorable experience is the sum of all activities and amenities we offer at Sutton Bay plus the efforts of our staff to meet and exceed your expectations. We take great pride in all aspects of Sutton Bay and are committed to always offering you only the best. Most of you have played numerous rounds of golf at Sutton Bay and have thoroughly enjoyed the course that Graham Marsh designed for Sutton Bay. You have also recognized, some of you more than others, the challenges we have experienced due to the unstable land in the Missouri Breaks.

The level of constant change on the course, due to the land shifts, has been significant. We have battled irrigation breaks at a level 100 fold of most courses. We have had significant changes in the landforms of some holes and many of the greens, some to an extent that permanent changes in the integrity of the design have taken place. Possibly the most significant issue related to the land shifts is the realization that the constant change in the land is both unpredictable in the rate of change and unstoppable in its movement.

The ownership group of Sutton Bay is committed to making sure we offer world-class amenities to our members. This commitment is the reason we have made the decision to begin a project this May to construct 9 additional golf holes. Graham Marsh has designed an additional 18-hole course, with all the holes located on the mesa above and to the east of the current course. We will begin by constructing 9 holes in 2011 and then will continually evaluate to determine if/when we need to construct the second nine holes. The initial 9 holes of golf will be completed by September 2011 and will be ready to play by August of 2012. Throughout the construction process the championship course will be open for play as usual and will be maintained in excellent condition. This project is an insurance policy for our membership, insuring you that we will always have at least 18 holes of world-class championship golf available for your enjoyment. Graham Marsh feels very strongly that the additional holes he has designed will be viewed as equal to or even better than some of the current holes. They will retain, and actually enhance the panoramic views you are accustomed to, the new holes will offer more variability in length and direction, and will be much more walkable. He has incorporated double greens into his design, and a few of the holes have alternate routes to the greens depending on the wind direction and the desired shot into the green. Along with the 9 additional holes of golf, we will construct a new and much more comprehensive halfway house. We will also move the irrigation building that is currently near our irrigation lake and the lake will become a feature.

The ownership group will fund the golf course construction project in full. We are committed to offer each of you the same level or higher level of amenity, in all areas of the club, than what we had when we opened Sutton Bay in 2003. This is no small commitment and we are confident that each of you will embrace and enjoy the additional holes once completed. The long-term decision as to what we do with the current golf holes will not be made until after the project is completed in it entirety.

The strength of Sutton bay is found in you the members, in all of the amenities and activities we have to offer, in the unique environment the club is located in, in the staff that is present to serve you, and in the commitment the ownership group has to the long-term health of the club. If you have questions and/or concerns I am more than happy to discuss these with you at your convenience. We have created a page on the member section of our Sutton Bay website which will explain in depth the project and includes comments from Graham Marsh and Vernon Bump, our geo-tech engineer. We will keep everyone updated on the project as it progresses through pictures on the website and we will certainly be happy to take you on tours of the construction project during your visits this year. Rest assured, your best interests and the best interests of the club as a whole, will always be in the forefront of our thoughts and plans.

Kindest Regards:

- Mark"

http://www.suttonbay.com/2011Project/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=61&Itemid=89

http://www.suttonbay.com/golf.php

It is clear to see the similarities with trumps course and I wonder if trumpton has a similar fate.

I would doubt anybody other than an exprienced geologist with access to comparative data could say if the course in Aberdeen (beside the sea) will suffer the same fate as one in South Dakota (beside a river). I'd have thought it more likely though that the same mistake wouldn't be made twice, but who knows and only time will tell.

Other than having the same Eejit owner I don't think there are any other similarities at all e.g.

1.Designer?
2.Climate?
3.Topology?
4.Membership/Ownership Structure?
5.Rating?

I think the phrase I'm looking for contains the word "straws" as well at "at" and "clutching". You need to get out on the golf course and enjoy yourself more Mac instead of sitting at you keyboard wishing/hoping for negative things to happen years down the line.

Are you coming to say Hello and have a beer when I come up to East Lothian next month Mac? Same goes for the rest of you Edinburgh (or vicinity)based posters?

Mac - I saw some pictures of what's happening at Sutton Bay. Ouch!

Tremendous membership and amenities I'm told - everyone I've spoken to who has played there raves about the experience.

It does not seem to have taken much movement to totally rip apart several of the holes.

Shotrock

I have a bit of a fond sport for sutton bay as I remember finding it on google years ago having never seen a wilderness course like sandhills or ballyneal before. I used to wonder if it would be possible to get to it.

Sand Hills a tougher ticket to punch, but worth the effort.

Both courses best described as in the center of the country and the middle of nowhere.

(I heard Sand Hills employs 20% of the county residents, and they don't employ that many people!)

Bob_the_Job wrote:I would doubt anybody other than an exprienced geologist with access to comparative data could say if the course in Aberdeen (beside the sea) will suffer the same fate as one in South Dakota (beside a river). I'd have thought it more likely though that the same mistake wouldn't be made twice, but who knows and only time will tell.

I have had the pleasure of having worked on a number of Coastal Engineering projects down the coast and Trumps course, like any other is likely to suffer some minor and occasionally more major damage through time, just as any east coast section of Scottish coast will given unfavourable wind and wave directions.
It will have been anticipated, and steps will be in place to minimise the impact.

Truth is, most of the course (I've been on it) is not built in sections susceptible to erosion (or the opposite, aggradation) , it's on the mature, stable dune parts. People like Mac and Gael go on about it, but have never seen it and tend to take the sensationalist line and swallow the environmentalist hyperbole that the whole thing is ruining the environment and is going to be washed away. It isn't true.

I'm guessing the most vulnerable bit would be around the 3rd green Super?

INdeed, but there are probably 50 courses with similar risk, and no one panicking.

Have you played it yet super?

Not yet Mac, it's shut for winter. Looks amazing though. I reckon you'd be impressed if you could take out your prejudice about it and set it aside.

Here's a conundrum for you Mac....what if your 9 chinned hero got roped into designing a course on moving dunes on an area of outstanding natural beauty and special scientific interest. Would you support or condemn?

Surely Doak has been involved in a few suspicious projects

Doak was quite involved with Bandon was he not? Don't think that was controversial though. Either way I'd love to spend a week or 2 in Bandon. Although I'd rather wait until his 9 chinnedness is finished with El Cardonal and go play that & Diamanté Dunes just outside Cabo San Lucas.

Utterly spectacular dune system and not a lentil munching guardianista in sight!!!

If tiger was actually the guy who designed the course then I doubt it would be worth playing.

THere would certainly be a lot of artificial mounds and crevaces on it.

Actually it looks as if the one that Woods is putting his name to isn't as much on the dunes as Davis Loves effort. Will defo play both the next time I'm in Cabo.

So you don't think Woods will make a good designer then Mac?

"So you don't think Woods will make a good designer then Mac?"

Why would he? There is nothing in his past which suggests he can find holes and route a course on is own.

It would be flat, wide fairways with flat large greens. Bit like TOC
Hopeless.

Peter Allis Tweet :

Breaking; Trump to reinforce his hair piece after wind farm gets planning permission adjacent to his course in Aberdeen. Exhilarating

Trump is

Trump is learning the hard way never to trust slimy wee eck.

Isn't schadenfreude wonderful at times like this?

Wee Eck??? He's wider than Shane Lowry!!

Earlier came across this photo posted by GC's Matt Ginella from Trump's course. Wow!! Looks almost unreal...

https://twitter.com/MattGinellaGC/status/334812067087405056/photo/1

We seem to have missed this yesterday

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/donald-trump-bids-to-expand-scots-golf-resort-1-3720609

But the Donald has submitted plans to extend Trumpton, which include a second course named the MacLeod, after his mother.

He no longer seems bothered by the windfarm, which he claims won't even happen (not sure where he gets that idea), and is happy to invest in not only a new course but a ballroom, more leisure facilities and extra accommodation for staff and guests.

I guess this will provide jobs for those who are soon to loose theirs in the downsizing of north see oil and gas operations. Unfortunately super will now have to fund a 36 hole day for the both of us out of a meagre trumpton cleaners wage.

There is no mention of whether the new course will decimate another part of a SSSI or not, but if not I guess it will just be built on some bog standard farm land. Which can go either way really, as both Kingsbarnes and the castle were built on potato fields.

McLaren wrote:We seem to have missed this yesterday

http://www.scotsman.com/news/scotland/top-stories/donald-trump-bids-to-expand-scots-golf-resort-1-3720609

But the Donald has submitted plans to extend Trumpton, which include a second course named the MacLeod, after his mother.

He no longer seems bothered by the windfarm, which he claims won't even happen (not sure where he gets that idea), and is happy to invest in not only a new course but a ballroom, more leisure facilities and extra accommodation for staff and guests.

I guess this will provide jobs for those who are soon to loose theirs in the downsizing of north see oil and gas operations.  Unfortunately super will now have to fund a 36 hole day for the both of us out of a meagre trumpton cleaners wage.

There is no mention of whether the new course will decimate another part of a SSSI or not, but if not I guess it will just be built on some bog standard farm land.  Which can go either way really, as both Kingsbarnes and the castle were built on potato fields.

I presume you didn't see the budget yesterday Mac?

Kingsbarns is just as good as the Castle mac, seeing as I don't think you've played either, doubt you'd know.

I have never played the castle but initial reviews were very poor. I actually haven't heard much about it for a long time.

Do you know if the castle has a pretty full schedule or are the tourists not fussed about playing it?

It's a fantastic course Mac, I didn't like it first time I played it but must have played it 40 times now. They seem to do a little bit of work every winter to iron out the "complaints".
Tons of tees to play from and plenty ways to play each hole. Holes designed with the prevailing weather in mind. Very fair course, although due to it's location susceptible to wind.

Castle is always busy in Spring/Summer and Autumn Mac, closed over winter.

I hate to bring it up, but the castle was another course you claimed you would shout me a round on? Are these invites ever going to materialize?

Probably not Mac, I'm not sure I'd waste my visitor points on an ungrateful curmudgeon like you.

I like to keep an eye on the Donald, and it seems we have confirmation of the changes he will make to Turnberry.

http://www.geoffshackelford.com/homepage/2015/4/21/trumps-turnberry-overhaul-is-a-go.html

The general gist being that more ocean will be involved. Turnberry isn't really a course for the purists like myself - I class it as a top notch resort course as opposed to a truly great piece of architecture - but a good course is still something to protect. Adding ocean holes is a little like picking Paulina Gretzky over the slightly challenging but more interesting looks of Lexi Thompson.

I will make the prediction that these changes will go down well with the slightly less sophisticated poster we attract on here, but lets here your thoughts anyway?

In my opinion, if you are tweaking a course in order to hope to host a major, then the onus ought to be in amending the course to ensure the higher likelihood of drama in the closing 6 holes.

I'm not sure if these changes will do that as I'm not too familiar with Turnberry, but that lack of drama is what makes TOC the turgid Open venue it is, especially if we have another Spieth like bore fest like Augusta

Having watched the youtube video last night of the planned changes.
The changes looked good, moving & tweaking greens & tees to some more natural positions,.

I thought Trump would/could have wrecked it with his plan.

But for the moment, I'll wait & see.

Seems one of the big issues worrying future president The Donald is whether or not he can finally block the building of off-shore wind farms near Aberdeen Trumpton.

We can only hope this issue distracts him from chucking muslims in concentration camps or wrecking global climate deals.

Did i read somewhere that Presidents are supposed to distance themselves from their business interests whilst in office? Even if that is the case would that also mean their international business interests.

It would put an interesting slant on any meeting with Lego hair, I.e. Rather than being just a golf resort proprietor he's now the POTUS. Can't imagine that won't have some sort of influence if wind farm negotiations take place.

You did JAS. I don't think he's legally allowed to have any contact with his business interests at all. Others in his position have used those blind trust thingies.

Someone should keep an eye on his nutty pronouncements and his (or his family's) share dealings as well.

At least you know what Trump's business interests are. You can't say that for Hillary or some of the previous presidents.

Trumps interests are, in no particular order, Trump.

pedro wrote:At least you know what Trump's business interests are. You can't say that for Hillary or some of the previous presidents.

Laughable. No, we don't know what the totality of Trump's business interests are. No-one has any idea and he's no more open about it than DRC.

navyblueshorts wrote:You did JAS. I don't think he's legally allowed to have any contact with his business interests at all. Others in his position have used those blind trust thingies.

actually Navy, from everything I've heard from the lawyer type talking heads.... there is no "legal prohibition" that says he couldn't continue contact with his business interests. But Practically and politically speaking, it's near if not entirely impossible to do so not only due do the "optics", but because certain types of conflict of interests are illegal.

I hear Trump Turnberry has been voted #1 by Golf Monthly of courses in GB according to #GCW.

Coincidental timing and a bit of brown-nosing, or a job well done by Wiggy?