Trump International Golf Links

by EmmDee57 Mon 22 Oct 2012, 9:14 am

First topic message reminder :

Very interesting documentary worth watching was on BBC2 last night.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01nln7g/Youve_Been_Trumped/

After watching it, I have no urge to play there after what that man has done to the local people. Nor did it put the local police in a good light either.

by McLaren Tue 23 Oct 2012, 11:04 am

"Chap I played with is plus 2 and has played pretty much every top course in Scotland and he puts it at the top too. Lost 5 balls mind you!"

They guy must have a hole in the part of the brain that allows you to appraise golf course architecture properly.

by JAS Tue 23 Oct 2012, 11:10 am

Fair do's Spaceman, that's a pretty impressive list and yes, trumps when it matures will be worthy of that bracket. I too sneaked onto the back tee at 18 (14 as well) bit of a shame that the rain set in on the back 9 and made it "gie driech"

As I've said somewhere else it's only the current immature condition of the fairways which is holding back a top mark. You just don't expect to walk up to a boomed drive down the middle of a links fairway and find your ball a foot behind its pitchmark!!

Worth mentioning as well that the practice facilities are top notch too.

by super_realist Tue 23 Oct 2012, 11:17 am

Mac, Have you never enjoyed a golf course you've played but still played poorly? Surely that is indicative of how good the course is if you lose five balls but still enjoy it?

Perhaps conditions were tough, or he just wasn't swinging well. Plenty reasons.

You'd think it was the best thing since the Tiger Woods poster on your ceiling if it wasn't for the contentious issues.
At least he's played it, you are judging it from pictures.

by SpacemanSpiff Tue 23 Oct 2012, 11:56 am

McLaren wrote:"Chap I played with is plus 2 and has played pretty much every top course in Scotland and he puts it at the top too. Lost 5 balls mind you!"

They guy must have a hole in the part of the brain that allows you to appraise golf course architecture properly.

If you mean he has a personality, then yes he has one of those. Or do you mean without this hole you can appraise a course you've never played?

Headscratch

by JAS Tue 23 Oct 2012, 1:09 pm

Mac if you were blindfolded, taken there placed on the first tee, un blindfolded to play 18 holes and not told what course it was you'd love it.

By the way, for the avoidance of all doubt it wasn't the toupe topped yank that designed it it was Martin Hawtree. We all know how much you like to do a bit of Googlish research....go look him up. He and his family company are steeped in golf course architecture.

by dynamark Tue 23 Oct 2012, 1:11 pm

wasnt his father in the Carry On films as well

by **navyblueshorts** Tue 23 Oct 2012, 1:47 pm

dynamark wrote:wasnt his father in the Carry On films as well

by Caito Tue 23 Oct 2012, 9:46 pm

Surely we can all hold two ideas in our kinds at the same time?

The course is fantastic, (not heard anyone who has played it say anything else).

Trump is an @rse.

Can't help but feel a different developer could have taken the local residents with him (or at the very least not resorted to the insults, bullying and intimidation tactics of Trump) although they may have struggled to subvert the planning regs, sssi and dupe (to put it kindly) the politicians.

I for one would have very mixed feelings about playing there, fortunately there are enough other great courses in Scotland to fill a couple of golfing lifetimes

by oldparwin Wed 24 Oct 2012, 12:20 am

No doubt it's a super golf course, but how much did it cost.
People like Trump are just out to make bucks, and do not care what they have to do to succeed, how many people did he have to buy and how many lies did he have to tell in order to get the course build.
He has priced the course out of ordinary folks price range, so who was it build for "the mega rich"
I just wish the ones he bribed to get his course build, are found out and we can all se how much some people's principles are worth.
Sorry but its so tainted in how it was build, it's one course I will never venture anywhere near.

by super_realist Wed 24 Oct 2012, 7:34 am

Who cares what it cost, or how much it costs to play.
Should Aston Martin start making family hatchbacks? Should Omega make a 9,99 digital watch? No, but because it's a Trump course he's lambasted for not building a council course for unemployed pikeys. It isn't Communist Golf. How many people can afford Wentworth or Loch Lomond. Very few, but they aren't slated for the cost of a round.

It's not a course they expect you to pay for every weekend, perhaps treat yourself once every couple of years. What's wrong with that?

It's a different market, but so what. Plenty of golf courses are very expensive, many much more than here. The boring Old Course is £150 a round for heavens sake and you''re guaranteed to be underwhelmed. There isn't a requirement to make everything for the common man. If there were we'd all stay in a Premier Inn on holiday and go to Benidorm and live in Slough.

by Caito Wed 24 Oct 2012, 8:12 am

Don't really care about the cost. It is another alienating aspect of the whole place but at least Joe Public can get on it unlike say at Loch Lomond . Problem is with the way Trump has and continues to denigrate anyone who gets in his way and the craven way politicians local and national have scraped before him on the basis of a benefit that is dubious at best.

Other courses build processes may not have been pretty but the big difference here is that the people impacted are still being victimised and the democracy that we live in has been subverted. a dangerous precedent just to accept because the golf is nice.

by super_realist Wed 24 Oct 2012, 8:16 am

Name one project where 100% of the people have been happy with the development? It doesn't happen.

I really think if this wasn't a project by someone as hateful as Trump, say a Branson or someone similarly rich I doubt it would even be an issue. People are looking to object on the basis of it being Trump, very little to do with the course.

by Caito Wed 24 Oct 2012, 8:33 am

I'll say it again, the course is fantastic Trump is an erse Of course opposition may have been less had someone else taken it on. they would probably not have treated people and process in such a despicable way.

is there any behaviour you would not excuse as long as the course was good enough?

Both Machrihanish.and Castle Stuart seem to have been built without damaging people quite so badly.

by super_realist Wed 24 Oct 2012, 8:47 am

What I'm saying is that business always hurts someone, probably in a similar way to this, but if it's a cosy corporate face rather than the ghastly syruped head of Trump spearheading it then the issues surrounding projects garner less public significance and consequently less outrage. Trump is a ghastly man, but I don't think he's necessarily any worse than a lot of people in business are. You don't make money by trying to please everyone.

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 24 Oct 2012, 8:58 am

super_realist wrote:...How many people can afford Wentworth or Loch Lomond. Very few, but they aren't slated for the cost of a round....

They are by me!

by super_realist Wed 24 Oct 2012, 9:03 am

Are you in favour of Communist Golf Navy?

by Caito Wed 24 Oct 2012, 9:10 am

We are almost in violent agreement on Trump super. But I do think his behaviour is particularly egregious and others have / do behave better. the disagreement I guess is whether you just shrug and accept it as the way of the world or not.

I've also never been convinced by tales of Trump success. is he not a guy who turned a billion dollar inheritance into a 999mill dollar fortune. Sure I read somewhere that one of the reasons.he was interested in the Menie sight was he had run out of finance options in the US.

by JAS Wed 24 Oct 2012, 9:30 am

I think more or less everyone is in agreement Caito that Trump is a rather repugnant specimen. Most are also in agreement (with a few odd exceptions) that like it or lump it an utterly fantastic golf course has been constructed in the Balmenie Dunes. Some people can separate those 2 facts, for others it presents a moral dilemma which is fair enough. Where it gets just a bit silly is when people say it isn't a great course (not because they've played it and don't rate it but because they embroil their dislike of Trump in their judgement.

If it was sold to Branson or to the DeVere, Marriott or Starwood hotel chain or had say Prince Andrew play it and bestow a Royal seal of approval and renamed Royal Balmenie, would it then "become" a great course??

by super_realist Wed 24 Oct 2012, 9:33 am

What I also wonder Jas is if the Dunes of which people are so precious, despite never having heard of them before would care so much if they had been developed for more socially acceptable uses like housing or for the HQ of The Black Lesbian Disabled Islamic Society.

by Bob_the_Job Wed 24 Oct 2012, 9:39 am

Surely s_r you mean the HQ of The Black Lesbian Disabled Irish Islamic Society??

I think I would play it if someone offered, but given all the other wonderful and more mature courses, it's not top of the list. I've not really followed all the furore around it's development, but even if I had I suspect the cynic in me would believe less than half of it anyway.

by super_realist Wed 24 Oct 2012, 9:40 am

Bob_the_Job wrote:Surely s_r you mean the HQ of The Black Lesbian Disabled Irish Islamic Society??

Don't be silly, we don't allow them.

by Bob_the_Job Wed 24 Oct 2012, 9:44 am

How rude

by JAS Wed 24 Oct 2012, 9:56 am

Generally speaking it takes a lot for moral outrage to persist for too long. Remember all the furore about the Newbury bypass years ago (tree huggers like swampy etc) drew loads of support at the time, despite Newbury Town Centre grinding to a halt for significant proportions of each day. The bypass went ahead despite a mountain of objections and significantly reduced congestion in the town. I bet the tree hugging objectors from that time travelling up and down the A34 now use the bypass and don't go through the town.

by thedamned3putt Wed 24 Oct 2012, 9:59 am

JAS,back in July, I wrote "I hear and see that the course is remarkable. You'd hope so for £100M. My problem is that it's been created by yet another ethically corrupt organisation. Someone questioned what was wrong with it if it created jobs? Does that person work in the arms trade? Heck, that creates jobs, so what's the problem?"

And you replied, “You've admitted yourself that your main problem is with the man himself and his organisation rather than the alleged damaging of the dunes. I hope I never get as twisted as I grow older.”

Yet now you write, “Some people can separate those 2 facts, for others it presents a moral dilemma which is fair enough."

So what’s changed in your opinion? I wrote that the course certainly looks incredible but that I have a problem with the way in which it was developed, to which you responded that I was “twisted”. Is being “twisted” now “fair enough”?

by JAS Wed 24 Oct 2012, 10:09 am

Not sure I'm following the point you're trying to make 3putt, I see absolutely nothing inconsistent with what I said and the view I held previously, if you choose to be twisted about it that's fair enough, who the hell am I to tell anyone what to think? Thats just not a path I would choose to go down.

by gaelgowfer Wed 24 Oct 2012, 11:10 am

Caito wrote:I'll say it again, the course is fantastic Trump is an erse Of course opposition may have been less had someone else taken it on. they would probably not have treated people and process in such a despicable way.

is there any behaviour you would not excuse as long as the course was good enough?

Both Machrihanish.and Castle Stuart seem to have been built without damaging people quite so badly.

Caito ... I haven't played Trump's course so, on the basis of design, layout etc., am simply not qualified to offer an opinion. Isn't this missing the point though? It's not a question of whether or not Trump has the right to build "the greatest golf course in the world"; the question is, whether or not it should have been built in this location. These are two entirely separate issues.

Parsinen managed to build two fantastic scottish golf courses without upsetting anyone. Indeed, he is on record as stating that you have to work with the local community and not against them. Indeed, that attitude paid him back handsomely when CS suffered freak storms during a previous Scottish Open which resulted in several landslides. The course was only made playable the next day by dint of those very same locals coming together and working through the night.

Anyway, moving on ... Trump paid a recent visit to Aberdeen and there seems to be speculation about him making a u-turn on the building of his hotel. Personally, I think folk are getting a bit ahead of themselves as I had been led to believe that built into planning permission was the condition that the course and clubhouse had to be built first before anything else could go ahead.

And, he's not going to get anywhere with his objection to those off-shore wind turbines. There were other parties who were against them but on safety, not aesthetic, grounds. Safety issues satisfied, Trump (and Royal Aberdeen) are not going to get anywhere as their objections are solely based on a spoilt view. Why would they get anywhere with that? Wee Eck is, after all, about to dump some of them on the edge of the Cairngorm National Park!

Still, you have to feel that if he's going to proceed with the clubhouse (which means an even bigger hole in his financial pocket) then perhaps he is going to do a u-turn on the hotel as well.

by super_realist Wed 24 Oct 2012, 11:21 am

Wee Eck? Big Fat Eck more like.

by JAS Wed 24 Oct 2012, 11:32 am

Aye, mair like Fat Boab than wee Eck

by **navyblueshorts** Wed 24 Oct 2012, 11:34 am

super_realist wrote:Are you in favour of Communist Golf Navy?

Communist golf?? No, if it's what I assume you mean. I just think the policies of Loch Lomond and Wentworth viz. fees/access etc stink somewhat. It's entirely up to them to do it but I reserve the right to think that it's a shame. :where's_the_shrug_emote_when_you_need_one?:

by super_realist Wed 24 Oct 2012, 11:35 am

Fair enough. I think exclusivity adds somewhat to the experience. Fees are too high for me, but I wouldn't rule out playing once if possible.

by JAS Wed 24 Oct 2012, 11:52 am

To be fair I'm in much agreement regarding the exhorbitant fees charged by some. I'm prepared to pay to play a course I really like and want to play but I do have limits. Kingsbarns at £195 is the most I've ever paid in the UK. I've now played it and much as I really enjoyed it I wouldn't return and pay £195 again but anything under a ton and I'd bite their hand off.
Trumps I paid £150 and yes I'd pay that again.
Wentworth pricing is just off the chart stupid and is clearly pitched at the corporate market (I may try Captains privilege in 2014 if I don't get a corporate invite before then).
I do realise that I'm in a more fortunate position than many in terms of means and disposable income but I'd rather pay X to play as many of the great courses as I can and end up on my deathbed with a Y-X in my bank rather than Y

by thedamned3putt Wed 24 Oct 2012, 12:34 pm

JAS, so taking a moral stance based upon objective analysis makes me "twisted"? you sound like a fairly unpleasant person. is that how you went about gaining your "fortunate position... in terms of means and disposable income"?

by JAS Wed 24 Oct 2012, 12:44 pm

To avoid embarrassing you 3putt I'm not going to respond to your question, other than to ask what exactly is your problem?

by thedamned3putt Thu 25 Oct 2012, 11:49 am

you call someone 'twisted' and then ask what the problem is? you're special, sunshine, something else.

by SpacemanSpiff Thu 25 Oct 2012, 12:09 pm

you're special, sunshine, something else.

I think he likes you Jas! Very Happy

by JAS Thu 25 Oct 2012, 12:35 pm

SpacemanSpiff wrote:you're special, sunshine, something else.

I think he likes you Jas!

Aye...feelin the love Spaceman :-/

Look td3p, we've clearly got off on the wrong footing. As I've indicated in the PM exchange with the mods I'm quite prepared to bury the hatchet and to that end I apologise if a light hearted statement back in July was phrased in such a way that it could be misconstrued and therefore upsetting. I can see you've tried your best to upset me back but as the mods have suggested, it's time to just let it go...Truce??

by thedamned3putt Thu 25 Oct 2012, 12:45 pm

Truce. Wahay, peace has broken out...

by Bob_the_Job Thu 25 Oct 2012, 12:48 pm

*click here*

by McLaren Thu 25 Oct 2012, 1:10 pm

Jas

Are you so selfish that you will happily play a round of golf no matter what costs were involved in creating the course?

I suggest you watch the the trumped documentary, and I can only hope that afterwards you are able to drag your morals out of the sewer they currently reside.

No doubt you are the sort of person who is happy to see the likes of Forbes ruined but are the first in line to your local tory MP when any tiny thing impedes your "perfect" existence.

Mods

Why are you sending 3 putt a PM?

3 putt seems to have gone lightly on Jas (or anyone else supporting the project) compared to what he could have justifiably said about them.

by super_realist Thu 25 Oct 2012, 1:15 pm

Mac, morals are completely subjective. We all know you're a lily livered, red flag waving guardian reading communists who get offends on others behalf, but we aren't all that simpering.

I bet your own life and employment are not whiter than white, which makes your holier than thou image rather lacking credibility.

by McLaren Thu 25 Oct 2012, 1:19 pm

Super

The likes of Jas make me livid, i know the rest of you are happy to get chummy regardless. But his views on the trump project are really very worrying, and I for one am not willing to overlook such an abhorrent point of view. The same goes for anyone else who is happy to overlook the ways of trump and how he destroyed the environment and peoples lives.

by super_realist Thu 25 Oct 2012, 1:21 pm

Mac, so you believe people can't have views unless they are in accordance with yours? That's more of a worry if you ask me.

Instead of relying on one sided agenda produced by those against it. Perhaps you go and look for yourself, if you don't get a nosebleed from going north of Edinburgh.

You seem to think the whole dune system has been destroyed. It hasn't

by SpacemanSpiff Thu 25 Oct 2012, 1:22 pm

Mac get a grip. I'm sure you were there doing all you could to prevent the course going ahead, well done, great morals. However the course is finished and whether Jas or anyone else now chooses to play it, it won't change anything about how Trump did or didn't go about his business. I find these programmes are only worth watching when you get both sides of a story as your average Joe believes every word thrown at him.

I would also say I detected a certain 'edge' to 3putts comments. I think a pm was the right thing.

by JAS Thu 25 Oct 2012, 1:24 pm

McLaren wrote:Jas

Are you so selfish that you will happily play a round of golf no matter what costs were involved in creating the course?

I suggest you watch the the trumped documentary, and I can only hope that afterwards you are able to drag your morals out of the sewer they currently reside.

No doubt you are the sort of person who is happy to see the likes of Forbes ruined but are the first in line to your local tory MP when any tiny thing impedes your "perfect" existence.

Mods

Why are you sending 3 putt a PM?

3 putt seems to have gone lightly on Jas (or anyone else supporting the project) compared to what he could have justifiably said about them.

Bored today are we Mac??

by McLaren Thu 25 Oct 2012, 1:27 pm

No jas, I am not bored. But more than a little riled by your comments.

Interesting that you dont offer a defence?

by SpacemanSpiff Thu 25 Oct 2012, 1:34 pm

Don't bite Jas. He's on the faux offence again, no offence Mac.

by Bob_the_Job Thu 25 Oct 2012, 1:40 pm

Fofence (Fo-f-nce), verb: to heighten tensions on an internet board by assigning an unrealistic degree of moral outrage and indignation to something most people don't give a toss about. See also "Doing a Mac"

I can see it now as an entry in the Urban Dictionary

by SpacemanSpiff Thu 25 Oct 2012, 1:41 pm

Bob_the_Job wrote:Fofence (Fo-f-nce), verb: to heighten tensions on an internet board by assigning an unrealistic degree of moral outrage and indignation to something most people don't give a toss about. See also "Doing a Mac"

I can see it now as an entry in the Urban Dictionary

by JAS Thu 25 Oct 2012, 1:49 pm

Mac...defence of what exactly?

For your info I've now watched the documentary twice on iPplayer and I would offer the observation that the makers are as one sided and Poopie stirring as your good self.

Selfish? Because I choose to indulge in some of the top venues my chosen sport has to offer...if that is the definition of selfish then guilty as charged, people who know me would probably contest the label selfish but hey, let's not let them get in the way of your mindless stereotyping.

"No doubt you are the sort of person blah blah blah"....how effing dare you, you don't know me at all, I therefore don't need to defend myself against your pathetic misconceptions.

The mods quite rightly interjected as the conversation between td3p and myself was getting personal. I may well have made the initial comment but some of the vitriol that came back was quite uncalled for....we have since called a truce and that's the end of it (I assume).

So I would respectfully suggest that you stop acting like a complete Poopie stirring tool and go back to the decent posting which are are capable of.

by JAS Thu 25 Oct 2012, 1:52 pm

SpacemanSpiff wrote:Don't bite Jas. He's on the faux offence again, no offence Mac.

Sometimes I enjoy biting Wink

Bob....love the word Fofence Wink

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