H-Cup, First block finished winners and losers.

tables are here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/tables/4776687.stm

Normally its accepted if you lose your first two games your chances are qualifing are over. In those terms it appears that the chances of progressing are already gone for;
Edinburgh
Terviso
Zebre
Glasgow
Exeter
Scarlets
Cardiff Blues

Do any of these supports still hold hope of progress, or is it now a battle to salvage some pride?

Teams that have impressed are Saracens, Ulster, Toulouse, Harlequins, Clermont Auvergne, Leinster and Toulon. All are 2 wins from 2.

I'd say the stand out so far are Clermont Auvergne picking up two BP wins, and Saracens are playing really well in Europe.

Have to say dissapointed in Edinburgh, two big losses and not a point scored, (abeit against two top teams), for last years semi-finalists.

So do the fans of the teams with two loses hold out any hope, and who has impressed/disappointed you?

For the teams with no wins, you have 2 Italians, 2 Scottish, 2 Welsh, and 1 English.

Does this add to the argument that the Pro 12 Unions get two many teams, or does it highlight that the Unions will have to push thier teams on.

I don't think that Terviso and Scarlets should be lumped in with the others, as they have very very tough groups and are not playing badly dispite 2 losses. In easier groups prob would have had wins.

Disappointing for the Rabo to have 6 teams out of contention already and disastrous for Scottish rugby in truth. Ulster look like the only Rabo side who are staring at a home QF with potentially Leinster too. Early days mind you. Clermont look seriously game but as has been said you win nothing in October.

Leinster will have improved by December. I can't see munster getting tue better of the sarries head to head. Toulon look comfortable now with a sale double header. Ospreys need a big ask against Toulouse but if they can win the home tie and deny ST a bonus you never know

Kingshu wrote:For the teams with no wins, you have 2 Italians, 2 Scottish, 2 Welsh, and 1 English.

Does this add to the argument that the Pro 12 Unions get two many teams, or does it highlight that the Unions will have to push thier teams on.

I don't think that Terviso and Scarlets should be lumped in with the others, as they have very very tough groups and are not playing badly dispite 2 losses. In easier groups prob would have had wins.

Don't you mean 'too' many? Freudian slip ;-)

And in a word. Yes.

Edinburgh
Terviso
Zebre
Glasgow
Exeter
Scarlets
Cardiff Blues

Not really a surprise 4 of them shouldn't even be in it!

It was always going to be tough for Scarlets and Exeter, I thought the Blues did well against Toulon and they should have won against Sale.

Kingshu wrote:For the teams with no wins, you have 2 Italians, 2 Scottish, 2 Welsh, and 1 English.

Does this add to the argument that the Pro 12 Unions get two many teams, or does it highlight that the Unions will have to push thier teams on.

I don't think that Terviso and Scarlets should be lumped in with the others, as they have very very tough groups and are not playing badly dispite 2 losses. In easier groups prob would have had wins.

I don't think that Ireland gets too many places,Scotland,Italy and Wales can answer that question seperatley cos despite the best efforts of some to say otherwise the Unions are seperate entities.

Chiefs are pretty much where i expected them to be (maybe a little ahead even, with the LBP at Leinster). This year was all about learning from the best teams in Europe and we were certainly schooled on Saturday!

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Kingshu wrote:For the teams with no wins, you have 2 Italians, 2 Scottish, 2 Welsh, and 1 English.

Does this add to the argument that the Pro 12 Unions get two many teams, or does it highlight that the Unions will have to push thier teams on.

I don't think that Terviso and Scarlets should be lumped in with the others, as they have very very tough groups and are not playing badly dispite 2 losses. In easier groups prob would have had wins.

I don't think that Ireland gets too many places,Scotland,Italy and Wales can answer that question seperatley cos despite the best efforts of some to say otherwise the Unions are seperate entities.

Ireland do have one more place than they should IMO.It would help the Italians and Scottish if one of their sides was in the Amlin too.

1 Scottish,1 Irish,1 Italian and 1 Welsh side in the Amlin is correct IMO. 8 Pro12 sides in the HC.

It does make a mockery of the HC as those teams with two defeats are pretty much out of it already and may field weakened teams to rest players due to the long season.

Ireland were awarded that exra place because their teams have won the HEC. As things currently stand we have the same number of spots s Wales for next years HEC

Hanging off coat tails is not good Standulsterman.

Beshocked: how is he hanging off coat tails?

Not him - a certain irish side.

I still don't think it's right. They haven't proved me wrong either.

beshocked wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Kingshu wrote:For the teams with no wins, you have 2 Italians, 2 Scottish, 2 Welsh, and 1 English.

Does this add to the argument that the Pro 12 Unions get two many teams, or does it highlight that the Unions will have to push thier teams on.

I don't think that Terviso and Scarlets should be lumped in with the others, as they have very very tough groups and are not playing badly dispite 2 losses. In easier groups prob would have had wins.

I don't think that Ireland gets too many places,Scotland,Italy and Wales can answer that question seperatley cos despite the best efforts of some to say otherwise the Unions are seperate entities.

Ireland do have one more place than they should IMO.It would help the Italians and Scottish if one of their sides was in the Amlin too.

1 Scottish,1 Irish,1 Italian and 1 Welsh side in the Amlin is correct IMO. 8 Pro12 sides in the HC.

The Pro 12 is irrelevant,the Pro 12 is neither a country or a Union so has no place in the qualifying criteria.

We get 3 plus one extra for winning the HC,that's fair in my book.There are too many English and French sides in the HC as well 5 from each is more than enough and one extra if a team from that country wins it out.

I'd be happy enough to see 5 French,5 English,3 Irish,3 Welsh,1 Italian,1 Scot and the winners of the HC and Amlin earn an extra spot for their country.20 teams in the HC.I also would't mind Ireland and Wales getting only 2 teams if England and France dropped to 4 and we could have a 16 team HC which logistically would make sense as I hate the system which currently sees the 2 best 2nd place teams get through.

They were beaten at home to Harlequins. Just like Sarries were this season.

Like it or not they have as many wins in the HC this season as Sale, Leicester and Northampton.

Its really basic.

The top 6 sides from the RABO should qualify for the HC, regardless of their nationality. I am quite sure that this wouldn't hurt the Irish sides or two Welsh Regions as they're good enough anyway (well maybe not Connacht).

Its about time we had a level palying field.

beshocked wrote:Not him - a certain irish side.

I still don't think it's right. They haven't proved me wrong either.

Did you not see their performance against the AP champs at the weekend? they received loads of praise from the quins fans.

Anhhh, penny drops. I understand =D

HERSH wrote:It does make a mockery of the HC as those teams with two defeats are pretty much out of it already and may field weakened teams to rest players due to the long season.

The only thing thats making a mockery of the HC is fans like you, who dont appreciate how good a competition it is.

I wouldn't mind so much if it were the next up in the contributing league.

I don't mind the winner (unlike the FIFA World cup for example) qualifying.

But I don't agree that as 'shocked says, the coat-tailing of a third place based on nationality.

[ed] some people like Red Stag have gone clearly on record to say that they'd rather give the English or French
sides have the additional place over WElsh, Italian or Scottish.

asoreleftshoulder

No it's not fair. The 4th Irish side have proven again they aren't competitive in the HC.

No side should get in the HC on the back of someone else's success. I don't agree with letting in a 7th English or French side either. They normally aren't competitive enough.

Jimpy wrote:Its really basic.

The top 6 sides from the RABO should qualify for the HC, regardless of their nationality. I am quite sure that this wouldn't hurt the Irish sides or two Welsh Regions as they're good enough anyway (well maybe not Connacht).

Its about time we had a level palying field.

Why does that matter,what about Italy and Scotland are they not worthy of consideration??

A level playing field would see England and France only have 3 teams each unless they earned another spot by winning the Amlin or HC,why do they get this unfair advantage over the other Unions.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Its really basic.

The top 6 sides from the RABO should qualify for the HC, regardless of their nationality. I am quite sure that this wouldn't hurt the Irish sides or two Welsh Regions as they're good enough anyway (well maybe not Connacht).

Its about time we had a level palying field.

Why does that matter,what about Italy and Scotland are they not worthy of consideration??

A level playing field would see England and France only have 3 teams each unless they earned another spot by winning the Amlin or HC,why do they get this unfair advantage over the other Unions.

Based on continuing HC results (Edinbugh's 'blip' last year accepted) - no.

A level playing field would see all the participating teams earning their places, not getting a sympathy sh*g dressed up as proportional representation..

beshocked wrote:asoreleftshoulder

No it's not fair. The 4th Irish side have proven again they aren't competitive in the HC.

No side should get in the HC on the back of someone else's success. I don't agree with letting in a 7th English or French side either. They normally aren't competitive enough.

Normally the 6th English side aren't competitve enough either and it's worse with the French they usually can only manage 3 good showings at a push.Why are those countries allowed field weak teams like London Irish and Castres last year.

The playing field is level. The reason the top Irish stars are rested through the season is because of central contracts. Thats down to the IRFU not the provinces and not the erc. 3 seasons ago ulster very nearly were overtaken by Connacht and only secured their HEC status on the penultimate weekend of the magners league.

Just because we have improved beyond recognition doesn't mean Connacht should be penalised.

Furthermore,

The 6 group leaders are 3 French, 2 English and 1 Irish. The erc is cyclical and although Ireland have dominated that is beginning to change this year. Premier rugby have just spat the dummy because they haven't had a winner in so long

leinster4life they lost again. That's 4 out of 5 wins for Quins in their last 5 encounters.

Mickado ??? I don't get it. Check the results and records please. Quins hate playing Sarries.

Jimpy wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Its really basic.

The top 6 sides from the RABO should qualify for the HC, regardless of their nationality. I am quite sure that this wouldn't hurt the Irish sides or two Welsh Regions as they're good enough anyway (well maybe not Connacht).

Its about time we had a level palying field.

Why does that matter,what about Italy and Scotland are they not worthy of consideration??

A level playing field would see England and France only have 3 teams each unless they earned another spot by winning the Amlin or HC,why do they get this unfair advantage over the other Unions.

Based on continuing HC results (Edinbugh's 'blip' last year accepted) - no.

A level playing field would see all the participating teams earning their places, not getting a sympathy sh*g dressed up as proportional representation..

Based on continuing results Ireland should have 4 teams in it every year,we've earned it by winning 5 of the last 7 HC's and having 2 finalists last year.

Guys,

Just remember that the 4th Irish province is currently ahead of 8 other teams and is on the same number of points as 3 French and one English team. In fact, only 11 teams have more points than Connacht and only 4 of those are English!

I know it's very early days but I do think you are on a fairly sticky wicket trying to say Connacht shouldn't be in the HEC.

You could have picked a better example than Connacht right now... they have one win and one loss (22 - 30 to the second placed side in AP).

Hardly evidence that they're not of the standard. They might get around to proving they're not up to standard later down the line but as yet, the evidence isn't there.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Its really basic.

The top 6 sides from the RABO should qualify for the HC, regardless of their nationality. I am quite sure that this wouldn't hurt the Irish sides or two Welsh Regions as they're good enough anyway (well maybe not Connacht).

Its about time we had a level palying field.

Why does that matter,what about Italy and Scotland are they not worthy of consideration??

A level playing field would see England and France only have 3 teams each unless they earned another spot by winning the Amlin or HC,why do they get this unfair advantage over the other Unions.

Based on continuing HC results (Edinbugh's 'blip' last year accepted) - no.

A level playing field would see all the participating teams earning their places, not getting a sympathy sh*g dressed up as proportional representation..

Based on continuing results Ireland should have two (maybe three) teams in it every year, Leinster and Munster the only two capable of winning 5 of the last 7 HC's and having 2 finalists last year (one of whom was thrashed) .

Fixed I think.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Its really basic.

The top 6 sides from the RABO should qualify for the HC, regardless of their nationality. I am quite sure that this wouldn't hurt the Irish sides or two Welsh Regions as they're good enough anyway (well maybe not Connacht).

Its about time we had a level palying field.

Why does that matter,what about Italy and Scotland are they not worthy of consideration??

A level playing field would see England and France only have 3 teams each unless they earned another spot by winning the Amlin or HC,why do they get this unfair advantage over the other Unions.

Based on continuing HC results (Edinbugh's 'blip' last year accepted) - no.

A level playing field would see all the participating teams earning their places, not getting a sympathy sh*g dressed up as proportional representation..

Based on continuing results Ireland should have 4 teams in it every year,we've earned it by winning 5 of the last 7 HC's and having 2 finalists last year.

If your 4th Irish side wasn't one of the weakest sides in the Pro12 and HC I would agree.

You should have to earn your HC spot on your own merits. Not by hanging onto coat tails.

MrsP yup the 4th Irish side did really well to beat Zebre who have course have a really good track record don't they?

I think most sides in the Amlin let alone the HC would fancy their chances vs Zebre.

HERSH wrote:It does make a mockery of the HC as those teams with two defeats are pretty much out of it already and may field weakened teams to rest players due to the long season.

I wouldn't expect Glasgow, Edinburgh, Connacht, Exeter, Cardiff to field weakened teams at any time in the pool stages despite losing the first 2 games. I would expect, and haven't we already seen, Castre and Biarritz sending weakened sides to away games and effectively gifting 4-5 points and that will only get worse once they are out of the hunt.

I have far more respect for a club that puts their best XV on the field for a european fixture and put their bodies on the line than I do for bigger sides who appear to not even want to be there in the first place.

The unasked question here is do the French 'deserve' their number of places? Only french sides with Cedric Heymans in the matchday squad have won the HCup. For a country that size, with their established clubs, huge budgets, extended squads, they should have more than Toulouse and Clermont trying to properly compete.

SecretFly wrote:You could have picked a better example than Connacht right now... they have one win and one loss (22 - 30 to the second placed side in AP).

Hardly evidence that they're not of the standard. They might get around to proving they're not up to standard later down the line but as yet, the evidence isn't there.

Yup they won against probably the worst side in the competition by some margin. Well done.

4th Irish side deserve to be in the HC because they can beat Zebre.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

HERSH wrote:It does make a mockery of the HC as those teams with two defeats are pretty much out of it already and may field weakened teams to rest players due to the long season.

I wouldn't expect Glasgow, Edinburgh, Connacht, Exeter, Cardiff to field weakened teams at any time in the pool stages despite losing the first 2 games. I would expect, and haven't we already seen, Castre and Biarritz sending weakened sides to away games and effectively gifting 4-5 points and that will only get worse once they are out of the hunt.

I have far more respect for a club that puts their best XV on the field for a european fixture and put their bodies on the line than I do for bigger sides who appear to not even want to be there in the first place.
The unasked question here is do the French 'deserve' their number of places? Only french sides with Cedric Heymans in the matchday squad have won the HCup. For a country that size, with their established clubs, huge budgets, extended squads, they should have more than Toulouse and Clermont trying to properly compete.

Nobody should be arguing against that - the French have been particularly guilty in the past.

Yes, I think it is incredibly harsh to say Connacht haven't proved their worth, not along are they not 'out of it' with 2 defeats after 2 games, they lost to the reigning Premiership champions, current second place in said league and denied them a try BP. Granted they got nothing from the game but if you want to go down that line, you'd say Exeter do not deserve their place either, with two loses, which would be very harsh criticism given the two sides they have played & what they earned in the RDS. But why let fact get in the way of a 'chip-on-my-shoulder' rant.

Mrs P,

Based on continuing results Ireland should have 4 teams in it every year,we've earned it by winning 5 of the last 7 HC's and having 2 finalists last year.

At the expense of whom?

The O'Mafia does tend to pile into this sort of debate.
However you do need to qualify you argument a little.

Factors teams need for a successful HC campaign;

- several current Test players, preferably from the same team,
- a fully fit & 'rested' first 22,
- familiarity with the refs,
- preferably an Italian team in your pool,
- an international flyhalf & TH prop are a must, and
- a bit of luck....

That's all you need to know about the winners & losers.

Jimpy wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Its really basic.

The top 6 sides from the RABO should qualify for the HC, regardless of their nationality. I am quite sure that this wouldn't hurt the Irish sides or two Welsh Regions as they're good enough anyway (well maybe not Connacht).

Its about time we had a level palying field.

Why does that matter,what about Italy and Scotland are they not worthy of consideration??

A level playing field would see England and France only have 3 teams each unless they earned another spot by winning the Amlin or HC,why do they get this unfair advantage over the other Unions.

Based on continuing HC results (Edinbugh's 'blip' last year accepted) - no.

A level playing field would see all the participating teams earning their places, not getting a sympathy sh*g dressed up as proportional representation..

Based on continuing results Ireland should have two (maybe three) teams in it every year, Leinster and Munster the only two capable of winning 5 of the last 7 HC's and having 2 finalists last year (one of whom was thrashed) .

Fixed I think.

No distorted,more like.You haven't answered a single point I made just put in some statements with nothing to back them up.there's no point debating if you're afraid to actually try backing up your points.

debaters1 wrote:Yes, I think it is incredibly harsh to say Connacht haven't proved their worth, not along are they not 'out of it' with 2 defeats after 2 games, they lost to the reigning Premiership champions, current second place in said league and denied them a try BP. Granted they got nothing from the game but if you want to go down that line, you'd say Exeter do not deserve their place either, with two loses, which would be very harsh criticism given the two sides they have played & what they earned in the RDS. But why let fact get in the way of a 'chip-on-my-shoulder' rant.

This

SecretFly wrote:You could have picked a better example than Connacht right now... they have one win and one loss (22 - 30 to the second placed side in AP).

Hardly evidence that they're not of the standard. They might get around to proving they're not up to standard later down the line but as yet, the evidence isn't there.

+1

The only teams that haven't been competitive so far are Edinburgh and Zebre, and Edinburgh can point to last season's semi-final as justification for inclusion.

Doesn't stop me wanting a reduction to 16 teams, though, with meriticratic qualification instead of national.

I don't like the winner of H-cup and Almin getting an extra spot, don't like thats its only coming up when its Connacht have that spot.

No reason that if an English/French team wins that the 7th in the leauge should get in.

I don't like that this has only come up in last 2 years when its been Connacht, not mentioned when it was a French team.

Next thing I think hersh does make a point that, When teams lose the first 2 games they do sometimes field weaken teams in the next rounds, and hence they are easier to beat later in the comp.

personally 24 teams 8 groups of 3, First and second qualify, top in pool 1 palys at home to 2nd in pool 8. Would suit, though clubs lose out on a home games but could mean semi's are home and away.

That all said, lets get back to this H-cup and we can cooment on qualification and future of cup on other threads

debaters1 wrote:Yes, I think it is incredibly harsh to say Connacht haven't proved their worth, not along are they not 'out of it' with 2 defeats after 2 games, they lost to the reigning Premiership champions, current second place in said league and denied them a try BP. Granted they got nothing from the game but if you want to go down that line, you'd say Exeter do not deserve their place either, with two loses, which would be very harsh criticism given the two sides they have played & what they earned in the RDS. But why let fact get in the way of a 'chip-on-my-shoulder' rant.

debaters1 compare Exeter's pool to the 4th Irish side's pool.

The 4th Irish side are laughing. Any side would struggle in Exeter's pool.

Exeter lost to the two best sides in Europe.

Quins arguably aren't even the best side in England.

Beating one of the weakest sides in Europe should get some plaudits though surely?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Jimpy wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Jimpy wrote:Its really basic.

The top 6 sides from the RABO should qualify for the HC, regardless of their nationality. I am quite sure that this wouldn't hurt the Irish sides or two Welsh Regions as they're good enough anyway (well maybe not Connacht).

Its about time we had a level palying field.

Why does that matter,what about Italy and Scotland are they not worthy of consideration??

A level playing field would see England and France only have 3 teams each unless they earned another spot by winning the Amlin or HC,why do they get this unfair advantage over the other Unions.

Based on continuing HC results (Edinbugh's 'blip' last year accepted) - no.

A level playing field would see all the participating teams earning their places, not getting a sympathy sh*g dressed up as proportional representation..

Based on continuing results Ireland should have two (maybe three) teams in it every year, Leinster and Munster the only two capable of winning 5 of the last 7 HC's and having 2 finalists last year (one of whom was thrashed) .

Fixed I think.

No distorted,more like.You haven't answered a single point I made just put in some statements with nothing to back them up.there's no point debating if you're afraid to actually try backing up your points.

Oh, you made a point did you?

greytiger wrote:Mrs P,

Based on continuing results Ireland should have 4 teams in it every year,we've earned it by winning 5 of the last 7 HC's and having 2 finalists last year.

At the expense of whom?

The O'Mafia does tend to pile into this sort of debate.
However you do need to qualify you argument a little.

That wasn't me Grey Tiger.



If Zebre/Aironi are an assured 5 points for their opposition what does that say about Biarritz 2 years ago?

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You could have picked a better example than Connacht right now... they have one win and one loss (22 - 30 to the second placed side in AP).

Hardly evidence that they're not of the standard. They might get around to proving they're not up to standard later down the line but as yet, the evidence isn't there.

Yup they won against probably the worst side in the competition by some margin. Well done.

4th Irish side deserve to be in the HC because they can beat Zebre.

Connacht gave a game to Harlequins and did their job against Zebre : this is on par to slightly better than say Biarritz.
Unless you want to decrease the number of teams participating to 16, Connacht have their place in the HC.
However it would good that decent teams like Connacht participate in the Amlin Cup who is losing credibility due to the lack of pro12 teams (its turning into a anglo french affair with hardly any surprises).

By the way, Exeter earned their place in the competition, they weren't just given the spot because they have the misfortune to come from Devon.

Winning two HC games out of 8 is competitive?

I don't want to know what not being competitive is!

Kingshu wrote:tables are here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/tables/4776687.stm

Normally its accepted if you lose your first two games your chances are qualifing are over. In those terms it appears that the chances of progressing are already gone for;
Edinburgh
Terviso
Zebre
Glasgow
Exeter
Scarlets
Cardiff Blues

Do any of these supports still hold hope of progress, or is it now a battle to salvage some pride?

Teams that have impressed are Saracens, Ulster, Toulouse, Harlequins, Clermont Auvergne and Toulon. All are 2 wins from 2.

I'd say the stand out so far are Clermont Auvergne picking up two BP wins, and Saracens are playing really well in Europe.

Have to say dissapointed in Edinburgh, two big losses and not a point scored, (abeit against two top teams), for last years semi-finalists.

So do the fans of the teams with two loses hold out any hope, and who has impressed/disappointed you?

I'd add Leinster to the winners list. They are also 2 wins out of 2. But they have performed poorly. These first 2 rounds were primed for someone to beat Leinster, Sexton has been flat, Kearney out, Dom Ryan out, Cullen has been poor, Healy has had injuries, Strauss and Cronin have only shown glimpses of form, McLaughlin has had elbow injury, Darcy/BOD/O'Malley have all had injuries in the centres, Kearney2 out. They have been leaking the most tries in the Rabo this season (20 tries conceded), allowed the second most points against them in the Rabo (159 points allowed) and the offence hasn't been clicking into gear (even though they have scored the second most points of the Rabo so far with 142). All this said, they have fallen through the first 2 rounds with 2 wins and hopefully will have most of their injuries back for rounds 3 & 4. To be that poor and have that many areas of concern but still have 2 wins in the back pocket.... winning ugly, etc.

The unfortunate thing for Leinster is that Clermont have probably been the most inform side. These back to back games in rounds 3 & 4 I think will shape the entire competition for everybody. Clermont come out on top, and chances are they become a top seeded side (good luck beating them over there), it is a coin flip for a home HC semi, nobody will want to face them. If Leinster come out on top they have momentum into the final rounds, players back from injury, etc., chances are it would be Leinster as an away fixture in the quarter finals (nobody will want to be up against them), a coin flip for a home semi and nobody will want to face them?

whocares wrote:

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You could have picked a better example than Connacht right now... they have one win and one loss (22 - 30 to the second placed side in AP).

Hardly evidence that they're not of the standard. They might get around to proving they're not up to standard later down the line but as yet, the evidence isn't there.

Yup they won against probably the worst side in the competition by some margin. Well done.

4th Irish side deserve to be in the HC because they can beat Zebre.

Connacht gave a game to Harlequins and did their job against Zebre : this is on par to slightly better than say Biarritz.
Unless you want to decrease the number of teams participating to 16, Connacht have their place in the HC.
However it would good that decent teams like Connacht participate in the Amlin Cup who is losing credibility due to the lack of pro12 teams (its turning into a anglo french affair with hardly any surprises).

Biarritz have a very poor record in the HC don't they? Have you seen their home record in the HC?

Funny guy whocares. I would expect their win ratio to be higher than 25% in the Amlin at least.

Sometimes I wonder if any of you guys actually ever look at wins/losses stats.

beshocked wrote:Winning two HC games out of 8 is competitive?

I don't want to know what not being competitive is!

in any competition you need to have winners or losers and for leinster or clermont to win most of their games, you need some teams to lose more games than they win...so far its only logic.

by non competitive, you could just look at Edimburgh currently : 30+ margin loss and not really that bothered.