H-Cup, First block finished winners and losers.

First topic message reminder :

tables are here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/tables/4776687.stm

Normally its accepted if you lose your first two games your chances are qualifing are over. In those terms it appears that the chances of progressing are already gone for;
Edinburgh
Terviso
Zebre
Glasgow
Exeter
Scarlets
Cardiff Blues

Do any of these supports still hold hope of progress, or is it now a battle to salvage some pride?

Teams that have impressed are Saracens, Ulster, Toulouse, Harlequins, Clermont Auvergne, Leinster and Toulon. All are 2 wins from 2.

I'd say the stand out so far are Clermont Auvergne picking up two BP wins, and Saracens are playing really well in Europe.

Have to say dissapointed in Edinburgh, two big losses and not a point scored, (abeit against two top teams), for last years semi-finalists.

So do the fans of the teams with two loses hold out any hope, and who has impressed/disappointed you?

beshocked

But by your standards Connacht wouldve qualified off their own backs finishing 8th in the Rabo!!! so IMO they do deserve to be there as they are.

What does win rate have to do with anything??

beshocked wrote:debaters1

Connacht have not earnt HC qualification by their own merits. That's the biggest problem. They have done very little in the HC to even justify their place.

Their 2 wins out of 8 is shocking.

Quins have beaten Connacht 4 out of 5 times. Yes Connacht got a lucky win but it's proven to just be a flash in the pan. The superior side has dominated the head to head.

Exeter came 5th in the AP so qualified on merit. They didn't hang on coat tails of any other club side.

Quins have been beaten this season. Guess which two sides they were.

It's interesting you keep bringing up Quins. The last time an RFU nominated side won the HCup, Quins were the 7th side that got in from England. Cue 2 points in the group stage and early exit. They only got in on the coat tails of Wasps winning the year before. I can't remember that being such a contentious issue back then.

I don't see why Zebre weren't in the Amlin first off, it'd be like putting London Welsh straight in to the HC.

Now I understand there's all the talk of development etc but surely the teams would develop more from being in a comp that they can compete in then getting a string of losses instead.

Otherwise maybe one of the Scottish teams should be in the Amlin? Any silverware would help raise the profile of the game in Scotland compared to a whole heap of drubbings.

As we look to develop rugby in the NH we should stop looking at the Amlin as the poor younger brother to be sneered at and start looking at it as a good tournament all of it's own. This won't happen though until it is full of teams that can compete against each other.

Zebre in the HC says it all IMO.

It's a joke.

beshocked wrote:

You might say Connacht have got to a semi in the Amlin. True - it sounds like a competition which would suit them much better.

I say as a learning curve - a harsh one, an unforgiving one but a much more effective one - experience in the HC is infinitely better than having your lovely run in Amlin. Connacht know it and every side that gets into the HC knows it - the players, their coaches etc. Hell, it has even been mentioned here that Exeter will learn from this season. Good for them...so too will Connacht continue to learn from any opportunity they get.

If you really knew the history of Connacht - and the virtual reformation (butterfly-like) it has to go through every few seasons as players are sucked from them just as they begin to get a rhythm then you'd appreciate more just how surprising competitive they can actually be. They are learning all the while and will improve... and the improvement will in part be down to playing against top quality competition not shying away from it.

Yappy

Are you saying last seasons semi finalists don't deserve to be in the HC? Or the Rabos playoff team?

There seems to be this elitist attitude that teams who don't do well deserve nothing but less, IMHO thats against rugbys nature (allbeit exactly what the RFU, FRU, IRB and WRU think)

If it were up to a lot of people here the top table would be reserved for the biggest clubs only, and noone else. Fact is all the teams who are in it are there by the rules of the governing body, so IMO deserve to be there over anyone who isn't! (for now anyway)

beshocked wrote:

2 close losses is still two losses.

I thought the worst side in Scotland as you call them got destroyed by a side ranked 7 places below them in the ERC rankings. These ERC rankings of course are gospel.

I don't know what Edinburgh has to do with Connacht. Edinburgh got to a semi final last season in the HC. 6/8 Connacht came bottom of their pool with 1 win out of 6.

Precisely,so why should how a Scottish team do in the Rabo have any effect on whether an Irish team qualifies for the HC.This point extends to the Welsh and Italian teams.

Not to mention the financial side of things fly!

Secretfly mentioned Edinburgh. I don't know why though.

This is the problem with you Pro12 fans. You are happy to be handed HC places on a platter.

Connacht are not in the HC by their own merit. Can you not see why this such a problem?

You might think it's good to see a poor side getting continually beaten.

I don't. It skews the pools.

Sides likes Connacht and Zebre make it an easy ride for certain sides.

how about:

4 teams from England
4 from France
6 from Rabo: 2 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian + winner of the Rabo
winner of the HC
winner of the Amlin.

4 groups of 4, etc.

make the Amlin smaller too (and more competitive) and have a third tier where the likes of Rovigo, etc. can be competitive as well.

beshocked

Connacht are in the HC by Leinsters merit, just as Quins were a few years ago by Wasps merit, and were beaten comprihensively.

But on which merit would you like? the top 8 Rabo teams? Then Connacht would be there on their own merit!!!

And I am not a Rabo fan, I don't like the league, have no connection to it and think it is hindering welsh club rugby!!

As a welsh fan I want to see strong welsh clubs in the HC, however they have to make it, wether by being the 3 strongest welch clubs, by a Rabo qualification or by a welsh prem championship qualification.

All parts of your argument fall down with Connacht!!!!

Regarding qualification to the HC it could be suggested that all 6N unions have the right to be represented, and therefore maybe qualification should go as...

2 from each nation auto... = 12

1 from each nation into a qualifying stage = 3

last seasons winner?

= 16 of the best european teams!

Mad for Chelsea wrote:how about:

4 teams from England
4 from France
6 from Rabo: 2 Irish, 1 Welsh, 1 Scottish, 1 Italian + winner of the Rabo
winner of the HC
winner of the Amlin.

4 groups of 4, etc.

make the Amlin smaller too (and more competitive) and have a third tier where the likes of Rovigo, etc. can be competitive as well.

Why do the English and French deserve 4 and the Irish (whos achievements in the cup are equal) only get 2?

IRFU have earned right to be equals, so 4 French 4 English and 4 Irish to start?

Or 3 English 3 French and 3 Irish?

beshocked wrote:Secretfly mentioned Edinburgh. I don't know why though.

This is the problem with you Pro12 fans. You are happy to be handed HC places on a platter.

Connacht are not in the HC by their own merit. Can you not see why this such a problem?

You might think it's good to see a poor side getting continually beaten.

I don't. It skews the pools.

Sides likes Connacht and Zebre make it an easy ride for certain sides.

If you applied that equally then I'd agree but London Irish and Bath got in last season despite being poor sides.If the Irish teams lose places then cut the Ebglish and French down to 4 and have a real elite competition.It wouldn't be my first choice but I could live with it.

You seem to want 6 English teams but only 2 or 3 Irish teams and even fewer Italian and Scottish.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly mentioned Edinburgh. I don't know why though.

This is the problem with you Pro12 fans. You are happy to be handed HC places on a platter.

Connacht are not in the HC by their own merit. Can you not see why this such a problem?

You might think it's good to see a poor side getting continually beaten.

I don't. It skews the pools.

Sides likes Connacht and Zebre make it an easy ride for certain sides.

I don't consider a 22-30 scoreline as Connacht having given Quins an easy ride.

The win against Zebre can be argued as not being particularly impressive (but I reserve judgement on that pending further results), but a fairly narrow defeat against Quins, who may have been missing their key player, but who will have had not a jot of complacency about them, marks Connacht, to my mind, as being worthy.

Having said that, there are several teams in the Amlin that I would lay big money on at evens to beat Connacht.

thebluemanscometh that's not the case though.

asoreleftshoulder nothing wrong with Ulster,Leinster and Munster, it's the 4th Irish side which is the weak link.

Dubble Overate. Ok maybe easy side is the wrong word. A higher chance of qualifying for the quarter finals would be more accurate.

Quins have beaten Connacht 4 out of 5 times. I don't think they are too worried by them as long as complacency doesn't kick in.

beshocked

Your argument is totally defunct when you use Connacht who have a poor record V the current English champions, but in every way you want qualification to be wouldve qualified!

The problem with Beshocked's obsession with Connacht is that is just that. He also resents that Sarries are tier 3, when he feels they should be higher.

That's fine. I agree that Sarries are a better team than 3rd seeds but that is just my OPINION. To me it is fairly obvious that Sarries are CURRENTLY a better team than Cardiff Blues (who I saw live yesterday) but you can't swap their seedings based on my (or anyone else's) OPINION.

You have to base these things on RULES. Rules will not always suit everyone's OPINION of who is a better team than who. This will create harder or easier groups in the HC. Nothing is perfect. You can suggest changes to the rules. eg. results from more than 2 years ago have less weighting or whatever. But you still need rules.

The frustrating thing is that if you gave Beshocked the rules to change as (s)he wished (eg top 8 in the rabo) and Connacht still qualified, he would still say it was unfair.

We would have to keep changing the rules until we found a way to exclude Connacht.

The fact that Beshocked can't see this himself means he is either a WUM or a bit thick. (OK perhaps blinkered rather than thick)

Okay..I've been 12 miles down the road and back again...let me see, has this converstion come to concensus?

Emmmmmmmmm...nope. Did I think it would? Nope.

Beshocked is still confused by what I say? Yes.

Oh well, wait until our 5th Province of Rockall gets up and running. They do look promising, and I'm serious about that.

Jennifer ladyboy if it's not a problem then bring in the rules.

6,6,8.

If Connacht would qualify then fine. I just don't like the hanging of the coat tails. If the rules of Pro12 qualification of changed to top 8 then fine.

I think the ranking are a joke but most people know that anyway.

Ultimately it's the wins that matter.

I have always said I want to see the HC change to 20 sides.

6 English. 6 French

8 Pro12. 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Italian, 1 Scottish then next two top sides in the table.

And I've decided that the truly fairest system and one that would keep all sides honest in their respective leagues is to choose the top 24 or 20 based on points gained in league tables the previous year. That's points gained through the entire three leagues combined. Highest points side goes through, next highest points side goes through and so on and so on until the 20 or 24 is reached.

Anything else is a version of protectionism... whether that's coming from Pro12, English AP or French Top14.

beshocked wrote:Jennifer ladyboy if it's not a problem then bring in the rules.

6,6,8.

If Connacht would qualify then fine. I just don't like the hanging of the coat tails. If the rules of Pro12 qualification of changed to top 8 then fine.

I think the ranking are a joke but most people know that anyway.

Ultimately it's the wins that matter.

I have always said I want to see the HC change to 20 sides.

6 English. 6 French

8 Pro12. 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Italian, 1 Scottish then next two top sides in the table.

I told you that you'd find a way of excluding Connacht.

There have been plenty years for teams to prove good enough to be at the top table. So.... from here on out close up shop to any new 'blow ins' and just have the competition between previous winners. So just set up a competition with;
Leicester
Wasps
Bath
Saints
Toulouse
Brive
Leinster
Munster
Ulster

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

beshocked wrote:Jennifer ladyboy if it's not a problem then bring in the rules.

6,6,8.

If Connacht would qualify then fine. I just don't like the hanging of the coat tails. If the rules of Pro12 qualification of changed to top 8 then fine.

I think the ranking are a joke but most people know that anyway.

Ultimately it's the wins that matter.

I have always said I want to see the HC change to 20 sides.

6 English. 6 French

8 Pro12. 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Italian, 1 Scottish then next two top sides in the table.

I told you that you'd find a way of excluding Connacht.

I have been asking for this reasonable system for some time. Connacht like other sides would be able to qualify if they finish high enough.

BT Sexy 16 Cup = 6 English; 6 French; 1 Welsh; 1 Scottish; 1 Italian; 1 Irish - no Connacht allowed
BT Top20 Cup = 6 English; 6 French; 2 Welsh; 2 Scottish; 2 Italian; 2 Irish - no Connacht allowed
BT 24Elite Cup = 6 English; 6 French; 4 Welsh; 2 Scottish; 2 Italian; 3 Irish, 1 Monaco - no Connacht allowed
BT Golden Dozen Cup = 6 English; 6 French - no Connacht fans allowed
BT Hot10 Cup = 6 English; 4 French - no Connacht fans allowed
BT Super6 Cup = 6 English - no Connacht fans allowed

That's the only mathematical resolutions that seem to be possible solutions. No wonder it's taking the negotiators a long time!

HERSH,

You ignored my question and my point; are you incapable of coming up with a valid counter point?

Beshocked,

We'll see how the other four games pan out, or three if we take it that there is no way ever that Zebre beat Connacht away. So what if Connacht beat either Biarritz or Quins in one of those three games? What happens then? Will you reform your opinion of the validity of their representation? Especially as they meet the criteria of having finished 8th in the Rabo?

SecretFly wrote:BT Sexy 16 Cup = 6 English; 6 French; 1 Welsh; 1 Scottish; 1 Italian; 1 Irish - no Connacht allowed
BT Top20 Cup = 6 English; 6 French; 2 Welsh; 2 Scottish; 2 Italian; 2 Irish - no Connacht allowed
BT 24Elite Cup = 6 English; 6 French; 4 Welsh; 2 Scottish; 2 Italian; 3 Irish, 1 Monaco - no Connacht allowed
BT Golden Dozen Cup = 6 English; 6 French - no Connacht fans allowed
BT Hot10 Cup = 6 English; 4 French - no Connacht fans allowed
BT Super6 Cup = 6 English - no Connacht fans allowed

That's the only mathematical resolutions that seem to be possible solutions. No wonder it's taking the negotiators a long time!

I do think its quite odd that the Irish fans seem to be getting all animated on behalf of their Welsh/Scottish/Italian counterparts (who appear to have accepted their mediocrity and moved on) when ironically, the Irish teams do very well out of the current set up thankyou, and are likely to benefit just as well from any shake-up (should it occur).

Kingshu wrote:tables are here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/tables/4776687.stm

Normally its accepted if you lose your first two games your chances are qualifing are over. In those terms it appears that the chances of progressing are already gone for;
Edinburgh
Terviso
Zebre
Glasgow
Exeter
Scarlets
Cardiff Blues

Do any of these supports still hold hope of progress, or is it now a battle to salvage some pride?

Teams that have impressed are Saracens, Ulster, Toulouse, Harlequins, Clermont Auvergne, Leinster and Toulon. All are 2 wins from 2.

I'd say the stand out so far are Clermont Auvergne picking up two BP wins, and Saracens are playing really well in Europe.

Have to say dissapointed in Edinburgh, two big losses and not a point scored, (abeit against two top teams), for last years semi-finalists.

So do the fans of the teams with two loses hold out any hope, and who has impressed/disappointed you?

Kingshu, I don't hold any holdout for the Chiefs for qualification now, altho tbh I didn't hold out any in the beginning to start with - realistically looking at our group, this was always going to be a learning experience for us. Of the two sides we've played and lost two, Clermont have been the more impressive, but I'd expect Leinster to pick up momentum as the season progresses - I still think Exe could play the role of kingmaker here as I suspect that Leinster will need a TBP from their visit to Sandy Park, and Clermont aside, those are rarer than hen's teeth. I'm certainly proud of the way we've played and how we've approached the games so far, and would expect no different for the remaining pool games

ALAB100OU

Think Exeter have done better so far than some expected, they will be wanting to but in good performances against Leinster and away in France.

Away in France is a big learning curve (Ulster still have only a friendly win over there) so a performace there, would be a great learning experience.

The games against Scarlets I think Chiefs will target to try and get a win, they will be desperate not to have played 6 lost 6. Home against Scarlets is the big one. Away in France the one they will learn most.

debaters1 wrote:HERSH,

You ignored my question and my point; are you incapable of coming up with a valid counter point?

Beshocked,

We'll see how the other four games pan out, or three if we take it that there is no way ever that Zebre beat Connacht away. So what if Connacht beat either Biarritz or Quins in one of those three games? What happens then? Will you reform your opinion of the validity of their representation? Especially as they meet the criteria of having finished 8th in the Rabo?

I might reform my opinion yes if Connacht do beat Biarritz at home (which could happen) or Quins (extremely unlikely). If they win 2 out of their next 4 games they'll have a HC record of 4 wins out of 12. 33.333% is higher than 25% so that would be a result I suppose. I might not though because that's still a pretty poor record.

Not sure of the relevance of finishing 8th in the Pro12. Currently there is no top 8 criteria in the Pro12. That's not the system that would need to be adopted anyway.

At least one Scottish and Italian side must be guaranteed HC rugby every season.

The ideal solution is what I suggested.

Top 2 Irish,Top 2 Welsh,Top Scottish,Top Italian, next two best in the Pro12.

It's not particular impressive to win 7 games out of 22 btw.

Jimpy wrote:I do think its quite odd that the Irish fans seem to be getting all animated on behalf of their Welsh/Scottish/Italian counterparts (who appear to have accepted their mediocrity and moved on) when ironically, the Irish teams do very well out of the current set up thankyou, and are likely to benefit just as well from any shake-up (should it occur).

To translate that into Irish...for the Irish:

"I think the Irish should butt out of these conversations about Scottish, Welsh, Italian (and Connacht!) participation in the HEC as they tend to introduce too much boring logic, too much self-satisfied humour, too much slap dash irreverance for the superior/inferior class norms of ye olde haves/have nots normal society... and generally destroy a good rollicking fighting match between ourselves [the English] and our hot headed arch enemies [the Welsh]."

Secretfly the Irish argument I see it is -

An Irish side won the HC so another Irish side should qualify for the HC.

Agree or Disagree.

My argument - Connacht are not good enough to be in the HC based on their poor European record and poor Pro12 record.

We can agree to disagree but that's the basis of the argument.

Effervescing Elephant wrote:Chiefs are pretty much where i expected them to be (maybe a little ahead even, with the LBP at Leinster). This year was all about learning from the best teams in Europe and we were certainly schooled on Saturday!

Have to say I've been thinking of the chiefs as my second team this year. They had such hard luck with the draw. I personally think they could still be in the running if they had gotten any other group. Even against Clermont they opened them up on a few occassions. Clermont just have too much class.

Out of the list of teams who have lost first two games, I'd say Exeter are the best.

And I said beshocked...and re-said... that had it been an English side in Connacht's position right now (ie. in the HC simply because an English side won it last year) then you wouldn't be at all animated about the issue. You wouldn't even be here discussing it. There'd be other things on your agenda...other threads to contribute to.

I'm saying 'fairness' is in the eye of the beholder...in any given year. You might in principle be against the idea of a side/any side benefitting by another side winning the contest but you would still be keeping pretty silent on the topic if it was an English side benefitting this year.

Yes, of course we'll agree to disagree (we do it so well ) - but the basis of my argument back at you remains crystal clear - crystal clear.
It's easy to profess a principled opinion on the topic when an English side hasn't benefitted this year from the rule you allegedly dislike - but the HC Rule has benefitted English and French sides long before it benefitted Irish ones.

Now that it is benefitting Irish rugby it's time for those overdue rule changes.
Now that Irish rugby is (or at least has been!) winning so often, it's time for those overdue rule changes.
Now that the joke league (Pro12) has got all uppity and is talking back to its betters, it's time for those long overdue rule changes.
Now that we [English sides] are losing out on the HC participation funding, it's time for those overdue rule changes.

But when France and England were doing the winning...them rules was just right on the button. The cream, it was a comin' to the top every season...and the jokers (the Pro12 loons) well, they knew their natural place (the Amlin)

Yeah... the nostalgia of the good old days.

SecretFly wrote:And I said beshocked...and re-said... that had it been an English side in Connacht's position right now (ie. in the HC simply because an English side won it last year) then you wouldn't be at all animated about the issue. You wouldn't even be here discussing it. There'd be other things on your agenda...other threads to contribute to.

I'm saying 'fairness' is in the eye of the beholder...in any given year. You might in principle be against the idea of a side/any side benefitting by another side winning the contest but you would still be keeping pretty silent on the topic if it was an English side benefitting this year.

Yes, of course we'll agree to disagree (we do it so well ) - but the basis of my argument back at you remains crystal clear - crystal clear.
It's easy to profess a principled opinion on the topic when an English side hasn't benefitted this year from the rule you allegedly dislike - but the HC Rule has benefitted English and French sides long before it benefitted Irish ones.

Now that it is benefitting Irish rugby it's time for those overdue rule changes.
Now that Irish rugby is (or at least has been!) winning so often, it's time for those overdue rule changes.
Now that the joke league (Pro12) has got all uppity and is talking back to its betters, it's time for those long overdue rule changes.
Now that we [English sides] are losing out on the HC participation funding, it's time for those overdue rule changes.

But when France and England were doing the winning...them rules was just right on the button. The cream, it was a comin' to the top every season...and the jokers (the Pro12 loons) well, they knew their natural place (the Amlin)
Yeah... the nostalgia of the good old days.

Well apart from the Irish teams (excluding Connacht of course), thats pretty much true.

Secretfly you might be right in a hypothetical situation but we can talk about other hypothetical situations.

If Connacht were a better side I wouldn't be doubting their credibility etc. You can talk about hypothetical situations till the cows come home.

If Quins had lost to Connacht would I have as strong an argument? No.

English and French sides have been complaining about the amount of Pro12 sides in the HC for some time but there has to come a time when the French and English put their foot down and say enough is enough.

No more gravy train and hanging of coat tails.

It's been Leinster winning not Connacht.

If Connacht reach the HC quarter final I don't think anyone will begrudge them a HC place. In one of the easiest pools the quarter finals should be a realistic target.

Connacht should have to earn their place by their own merits IMO. Proving themselves would help.

Edinburgh have been criticised but at least they had that semi final to dine upon.

HERSH wrote:It does make a mockery of the HC as those teams with two defeats are pretty much out of it already and may field weakened teams to rest players due to the long season.

No, stuffing the competition with English and French teams makes it a mockery. It's either a European cup, or it's not. Did you see how close Treviso ran Toulouse?
A lot closer than Leicester did. Edinburgh were semi finalists last year, Treviso have already beaten the ospreys this season. As for weakened teams, how many of the English sides are going to
field full strength sides after they are realistically knocked out, with one eye on their precious relegation?
Honestly, a European club competition needs to mimic the national competition i.e the six nations, which means representation from all six countries. Otherwise what's the point?

beshocked wrote:Secretfly you might be right in a hypothetical situation but we can talk about other hypothetical situations.


If Quins had lost to Connacht would I have as strong an argument? No.

They did lose to them, last season.

Higher ground I absolutely agree hence my suggestion of how the HC qualification should be restructured.

Beshocked. You really need to get over your unhealthy obsession with Connacht. (I think you secretly fancy John Muldoon or something)

It's eating you up and it's not good for your mental health.

Move on. Put it behind you. Live and let live. Just ignore them.

Jimpy wrote:

SecretFly wrote:And I said beshocked...and re-said... that had it been an English side in Connacht's position right now (ie. in the HC simply because an English side won it last year) then you wouldn't be at all animated about the issue. You wouldn't even be here discussing it. There'd be other things on your agenda...other threads to contribute to.

I'm saying 'fairness' is in the eye of the beholder...in any given year. You might in principle be against the idea of a side/any side benefitting by another side winning the contest but you would still be keeping pretty silent on the topic if it was an English side benefitting this year.

Yes, of course we'll agree to disagree (we do it so well ) - but the basis of my argument back at you remains crystal clear - crystal clear.
It's easy to profess a principled opinion on the topic when an English side hasn't benefitted this year from the rule you allegedly dislike - but the HC Rule has benefitted English and French sides long before it benefitted Irish ones.

Now that it is benefitting Irish rugby it's time for those overdue rule changes.
Now that Irish rugby is (or at least has been!) winning so often, it's time for those overdue rule changes.
Now that the joke league (Pro12) has got all uppity and is talking back to its betters, it's time for those long overdue rule changes.
Now that we [English sides] are losing out on the HC participation funding, it's time for those overdue rule changes.

But when France and England were doing the winning...them rules was just right on the button. The cream, it was a comin' to the top every season...and the jokers (the Pro12 loons) well, they knew their natural place (the Amlin)
Yeah... the nostalgia of the good old days.

Well apart from the Irish teams (excluding Connacht of course), thats pretty much true.

Well the Irish were always the ones who had the balls to stand up to the English.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly you might be right in a hypothetical situation but we can talk about other hypothetical situations.

English and French sides have been complaining about the amount of Pro12 sides in the HC for some time but there has to come a time when the French and English put their foot down and say enough is enough.

No more gravy train and hanging of coat tails.

Beshocked, there is Nothing hypothetical about the Heineken Cup. Nothing. It exists, it has its rules - it had a beginning date, it had its signatories to start it up. There is NO hypothetical aspect to the Heineken Cup. It has its present and it has its past.

Now, your line above again about enough being enough gives the arrogant stamp (and lie) that the English and French started the competition and, in their good nature, invited a few Celts to join them. Reminding them to stay quiet and just add to the 'European feel'. But never to think of winning, as that was for the historical big French and English sides to battle over.

>In fact, the first HC had neither England nor Scotland. France, Wales and Ireland shared three places each and maybe Romania should be comlaining that England eventually took their original spot? Oh also, Italy was there too...before Scotland and England.

>2nd year it was more like it is today. The blow-ins arrive. But then Wales had 4, Ireland had 3 and England and France had only 4 apiece. Hmmm - Interesting. Wales and France go up one but Ireland stays the same.

>3rd year. Same as the one before it

>4th year. England missing again because of internal grievances. France suddenly jump to 5 places simply because Scotland lose one.

>5th year. Ulster won the previous year but what happens? England and France jump to six places each! And Wales goes to five! So much for winning ways improving your chances the following year

>6th year. Things settle down and follow the previous year's pattern.

>7th year. Same as last time.

>8th year. Same as last time.

>9th year. Same as last time.

>10th year. First year of the extra place for finishing position! Who benefits first? You guessed it - England. Wales take the pain and go back down to 4 places

>11th year. France benefit from the extra slot.

>12th year. Munster won it the year before. Who gets the extra slot? Ireland? No, good guess though. France!

>13th year. Wasps win it previous year. Natural law uncannily resumes and England take the extra slot.

>14th year. Munster win the previous year...but still no extra slot. What's the lucky side to get it this year? France again! Lucky devils.

>15th year. Leinster now win it the previous year. Ireland get the extra slot? You gotta be kidding me. England get it.

>16th year. Toulouse won the previous year and all is right with the world again. France takes the extra slot.

>17th year. First appearance of infamous Connacht. There finally because Leinster won the previous year.

>18th year. Connacht becoming an absolute pest now and there again because Leinster won again.

Nothing hypothetical about HC. It's there in print. On specifically four occasions French or English sides directly hung onto the coat-tails of Irish Provinical success. So I don't think that many outside observers would be all that sympathetic to the sudden call for 'fairness' now on looking back at the past.

Secretfly I never said English clubs started the competition. On the other hand they with the French are the biggest players.

The Irish have had 75% of their clubs in the HC. Now that's been put up to 100% which in my opinion is wrong. Irish wanting more and more. Soon you'll be asking for Leinster and Munster A sides to take part too.

Connacht are still a minnow like they have always been, the HC is surely for the best sides in Europe? Or at least it should be. Connacht struggle in the Amlin let alone the HC.

If they weren't such a weak side then it wouldn't be a problem.

Simply another Pro12 side riding the gravy train.

English and French clubs get proportionally more because they contribute more to the HC competition.

Indeed Beshocked, each and every suggestion you have made reduces the alocation of Irish & welsh teams but maintains the English & French contingants. Now when you hack a 1/3 off entrants off a competition, everyone has to take the pain, because, and Ill whisper this, it is a Union competition, not a league comp, and secondly, I should whisper this one too, the English having 6 sides in a 16 team comp would weaken it. This is fact, the results speak for themselves.

5 English, 5 French, 2 Welsh, 2 Irish, 1 Scot, 1 Italian - 16 sides could work too.

No my suggestion of 6,6,8 would see the Pro12 getting two less places.

You potentially get 4 Irish sides if all performed.

My suggestion was

6 English, 6 French, 8 Pro12 - top 2 Irish,top 2 Welsh, top Scot, top Italian then next two best in the league.

This means you could potentially get 4 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scot, 1 Italian or alternatively 3 Welsh,3 Irish,1 Scot, 1 Italian.

SecretFly wrote:And I said beshocked...and re-said... that had it been an English side in Connacht's position right now (ie. in the HC simply because an English side won it last year) then you wouldn't be at all animated about the issue. You wouldn't even be here discussing it. There'd be other things on your agenda...other threads to contribute to.

I'm saying 'fairness' is in the eye of the beholder...in any given year. You might in principle be against the idea of a side/any side benefitting by another side winning the contest but you would still be keeping pretty silent on the topic if it was an English side benefitting this year.

Yes, of course we'll agree to disagree (we do it so well ) - but the basis of my argument back at you remains crystal clear - crystal clear.
It's easy to profess a principled opinion on the topic when an English side hasn't benefitted this year from the rule you allegedly dislike - but the HC Rule has benefitted English and French sides long before it benefitted Irish ones.

Now that it is benefitting Irish rugby it's time for those overdue rule changes.
Now that Irish rugby is (or at least has been!) winning so often, it's time for those overdue rule changes.
Now that the joke league (Pro12) has got all uppity and is talking back to its betters, it's time for those long overdue rule changes.
Now that we [English sides] are losing out on the HC participation funding, it's time for those overdue rule changes.

But when France and England were doing the winning...them rules was just right on the button. The cream, it was a comin' to the top every season...and the jokers (the Pro12 loons) well, they knew their natural place (the Amlin)

Yeah... the nostalgia of the good old days.

That's totally absurd - how many of the current Pro12 teams have competed in the Amlin pools? How many of their fans even know it exists, apart from in some vague 7th pit of hell way?

beshocked wrote:Secretfly I never said English clubs started the competition. On the other hand they with the French are the biggest players.
The Irish have had 75% of their clubs in the HC. Now that's been put up to 100% which in my opinion is wrong. Irish wanting more and more. Soon you'll be asking for Leinster and Munster A sides to take part too.

Connacht are still a minnow like they have always been, the HC is surely for the best sides in Europe? Or at least it should be. Connacht struggle in the Amlin let alone the HC.

If they weren't such a weak side then it wouldn't be a problem.

Simply another Pro12 side riding the gravy train.

English and French clubs get proportionally more because they contribute more to the HC competition.

NO they AIN't the biggest players. Go look at the history. Who is playing at business end and winning? That's three nations I see there, not two. Active biggest players in real terms, on the field, putting bums on seats for the TV companies and advertisers? Three nations I see there..not two.

What more do they contribute? Six guaranteed places each? More teams? Yes. That's a characteristic of the rules not a distinction between class and crud. Neither will your percentages save you from the true history of the HC.

It doesn't belong to you or to France ..and it certainly doesn't belong to either of you in terms of ability displayed in it. I've just seen another thread where a guy is suggesting 8 sides from AP and 8 from Top14 to match 8 from Pro12. Percentages rising again? 100% of four sides = four sides. That's all it will ever be.
The competition is at present 24. That's a number - percentage swipe that rather than the number of clubs per country.
The more numbers you have in there, the more chances you have of winning, the less 'fair' the competition is - the more a money churning smokescreen it becomes - the more England and France international sides benefit - the more backwater sludge our International sides become. You think we're really going to stand for that definition of 'fairness'?

Yes, but you're not answering the fact that you are asking the Socts & Italians to give up 50% of their slots, the Welsh & Irish to give up 33% and the French and English a mere 20%.

In the last 8 season there have been:

Winners:

Irish: 5
French: 2
English: 1

Finalists:

Irish: 6
French: 6
English: 4

Irish rugby is, by any yardstick, the strongest in stength & depth. The worst Irish side split the difference with the eventual AP Champions and lost by 8 points at the weekend.