H-Cup, First block finished winners and losers.

by Kingshu Mon 22 Oct 2012, 11:03 am

First topic message reminder :

tables are here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/tables/4776687.stm

Normally its accepted if you lose your first two games your chances are qualifing are over. In those terms it appears that the chances of progressing are already gone for;
Edinburgh
Terviso
Zebre
Glasgow
Exeter
Scarlets
Cardiff Blues

Do any of these supports still hold hope of progress, or is it now a battle to salvage some pride?

Teams that have impressed are Saracens, Ulster, Toulouse, Harlequins, Clermont Auvergne, Leinster and Toulon. All are 2 wins from 2.

I'd say the stand out so far are Clermont Auvergne picking up two BP wins, and Saracens are playing really well in Europe.

Have to say dissapointed in Edinburgh, two big losses and not a point scored, (abeit against two top teams), for last years semi-finalists.

So do the fans of the teams with two loses hold out any hope, and who has impressed/disappointed you?

by Dubbelyew L Overate Tue 23 Oct 2012, 1:48 pm

debaters1 wrote:Indeed Beshocked, each and every suggestion you have made reduces the alocation of Irish & welsh teams but maintains the English & French contingants. Now when you hack a 1/3 off entrants off a competition, everyone has to take the pain, because, and Ill whisper this, it is a Union competition, not a league comp, and secondly, I should whisper this one too, the English having 6 sides in a 16 team comp would weaken it. This is fact, the results speak for themselves.

The Amlin is just as much a Union competition as HC, so where have the Irish pool contestants been in the last couple of years, and the Scots in the last decade?

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 1:51 pm

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:how many of the current Pro12 teams have competed in the Amlin pools? How many of their fans even know it exists, apart from in some vague 7th pit of hell way?

as few as possible, Dubbelyew - as few as possible. Rugby is war. The idea was that was the mood back then...and it continues to be the mood amongst some today. The vast majority of Pro12ers are sub-standard Amlin standard teams and if the world was a more perfect place and justly run by the PRL then that's how it would be in practice too. Wink

by Dubbelyew L Overate Tue 23 Oct 2012, 1:57 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:how many of the current Pro12 teams have competed in the Amlin pools? How many of their fans even know it exists, apart from in some vague 7th pit of hell way?

as few as possible, Dubbelyew - as few as possible. Rugby is war. The idea was that was the mood back then...and it continues to be the mood amongst some today. The vast majority of Pro12ers are sub-standard Amlin standard teams and if the world was a more perfect place and justly run by the PRL then that's how it would be in practice too.

Yep, 7th pit of hell.

by beshocked Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:05 pm

You have lain down the gauntlet secretfly.

Connacht record in the HC

2 wins, 6 losses - 25%

Connacht record in the Amlin

50 wins,48 losses - 51% win ratio

Ulster - Heineken Cup record

49 wins, 3 draws, 53 losses - 46% win ratio

Guess what? No Amlin Challenge Cup for them.

Leinster - HC record

79 wins, 3 draws, 35 losses -67.5% ratio

Of course no Amlin for them either.

Munster - HC record

87 wins, 1 draw, 36 losses - 70%

ACC record

1 win, 1 loss - 50%

I'll compare it to my side who are seen as a pretty average English side.

Saracens HC record

25 wins, 16 losses - 61% win ratio

Amlin Challenge Cup record

43 wins, 1 draw, 11 losses - 78% win ratio.

This pretty average English side have vastly superior European stats to Ulster and Connacht.

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:05 pm

7th pit of Hell.... just the very step next to the 6 English qualifiers. Yeah.. I've heard about it...some of them (the English top seeders) have heard of it too.

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:12 pm

beshocked wrote:You have lain down the gauntlet secretfly.

Connacht record in the HC

2 wins, 6 losses - 25%

Connacht record in the Amlin

50 wins,48 losses - 51% win ratio

Ulster - Heineken Cup record

49 wins, 3 draws, 53 losses - 46% win ratio

Guess what? No Amlin Challenge Cup for them.

Leinster - HC record

79 wins, 3 draws, 35 losses -67.5% ratio

Of course no Amlin for them either.

Munster - HC record

87 wins, 1 draw, 36 losses - 70%

ACC record

1 win, 1 loss - 50%

I'll compare it to my side who are seen as a pretty average English side.

Saracens HC record

25 wins, 16 losses - 61% win ratio

Amlin Challenge Cup record

43 wins, 1 draw, 11 losses - 78% win ratio.

This pretty average English side have vastly superior European stats to Ulster and Connacht.

What do those percentages say? That Connacht isn't as good a side as Saracens? Who told you otherwise...do name him so that I can have a laugh at his expense.

Plus...of course you preclude league placement in all those percentages. You see you have to suggest that Munster and Leinster can come in last in Pro12 and still artificially push up their HC percentages. So go back over the Pro12 and see how they've worked in that... and how many times they'd have risked relegation had there been relegation.

But if you're suggesting Saracens are historically a stronger side that either Leinster or Munster on account of their Amlin record....then.... well, I'll leave all that with you to ponder on your own.

by beshocked Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:26 pm

I didn't say Saracens are historically a stronger side to Leinster or Munster. No I am not that foolish.

Saracens are not historically the strongest English side are they? They haven't done too much in Europe yet they have pretty good stats.

If we are talking like for like I'll post Leicester.

74 wins,4 draws, 34 losses - 66% win ratio

Wasps have

51 wins, 1 draw,26 losses - 65% ratio

by Mickado Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:31 pm

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:Secretfly you might be right in a hypothetical situation but we can talk about other hypothetical situations.

English and French sides have been complaining about the amount of Pro12 sides in the HC for some time but there has to come a time when the French and English put their foot down and say enough is enough.

No more gravy train and hanging of coat tails.

Beshocked, there is Nothing hypothetical about the Heineken Cup. Nothing. It exists, it has its rules - it had a beginning date, it had its signatories to start it up. There is NO hypothetical aspect to the Heineken Cup. It has its present and it has its past.

Now, your line above again about enough being enough gives the arrogant stamp (and lie) that the English and French started the competition and, in their good nature, invited a few Celts to join them. Reminding them to stay quiet and just add to the 'European feel'. But never to think of winning, as that was for the historical big French and English sides to battle over.

>In fact, the first HC had neither England nor Scotland. France, Wales and Ireland shared three places each and maybe Romania should be comlaining that England eventually took their original spot? Oh also, Italy was there too...before Scotland and England.

>2nd year it was more like it is today. The blow-ins arrive. But then Wales had 4, Ireland had 3 and England and France had only 4 apiece. Hmmm - Interesting. Wales and France go up one but Ireland stays the same.

>3rd year. Same as the one before it

>4th year. England missing again because of internal grievances. France suddenly jump to 5 places simply because Scotland lose one.

>5th year. Ulster won the previous year but what happens? England and France jump to six places each! And Wales goes to five! So much for winning ways improving your chances the following year

>6th year. Things settle down and follow the previous year's pattern.

>7th year. Same as last time.

>8th year. Same as last time.

>9th year. Same as last time.

>10th year. First year of the extra place for finishing position! Who benefits first? You guessed it - England. Wales take the pain and go back down to 4 places

>11th year. France benefit from the extra slot.

>12th year. Munster won it the year before. Who gets the extra slot? Ireland? No, good guess though. France!

>13th year. Wasps win it previous year. Natural law uncannily resumes and England take the extra slot.

>14th year. Munster win the previous year...but still no extra slot. What's the lucky side to get it this year? France again! Lucky devils.

>15th year. Leinster now win it the previous year. Ireland get the extra slot? You gotta be kidding me. England get it.

>16th year. Toulouse won the previous year and all is right with the world again. France takes the extra slot.

>17th year. First appearance of infamous Connacht. There finally because Leinster won the previous year.

>18th year. Connacht becoming an absolute pest now and there again because Leinster won again.

Nothing hypothetical about HC. It's there in print. On specifically four occasions French or English sides directly hung onto the coat-tails of Irish Provinical success. So I don't think that many outside observers would be all that sympathetic to the sudden call for 'fairness' now on looking back at the past.

This provides some very interesting perspective… good post Fly! Ok!

by asoreleftshoulder Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:33 pm

beshocked wrote:5 English, 5 French, 2 Welsh, 2 Irish, 1 Scot, 1 Italian - 16 sides could work too.

No my suggestion of 6,6,8 would see the Pro12 getting two less places.

You potentially get 4 Irish sides if all performed.

My suggestion was

6 English, 6 French, 8 Pro12 - top 2 Irish,top 2 Welsh, top Scot, top Italian then next two best in the league.

This means you could potentially get 4 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scot, 1 Italian or alternatively 3 Welsh,3 Irish,1 Scot, 1 Italian.

Yet you always get 6 English and French sides no matter how strong the teams in those countries are,how is that fair?

Why do England and France deserve to automatically get 200% more teams to automatically qualify?

by Jimpy Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:39 pm

Is it a bank holiday in ireland or something?

H-Cup, First block finished winners and losers. - Page 4 1347041234

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:39 pm

beshocked wrote:I didn't say Saracens are historically a stronger side to Leinster or Munster. No I am not that foolish.

Saracens are not historically the strongest English side are they? They haven't done too much in Europe yet they have pretty good stats.

If we are talking like for like I'll post Leicester.

74 wins,4 draws, 34 losses - 66% win ratio

Wasps have

51 wins, 1 draw,26 losses - 65% ratio

Yes...England has quality sides. I don't dispute it, beshocked. What are your percentages presuming? Your percentages don't tell me anything about Connacht being in the HC because of what Leinster have been doing recently or why in years before why some French and English sides have been in it because of what their best sides were doing (and even - as I pointed out - because of what Irish provinces were achieving.) English or French sides have benefitted in the past because Leinster and Munster and Ulster couldn't benefit from the win-equals-extra-place rule as Connacht weren't considered strong enough by IRFU. And so either next best French or English sides benefitted instead.

English and French sides that had no right to be in HC on their own performance levels got there because of the HC rules. You can't argue away that point.

by debaters1 Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:40 pm

I'll repost this as you seem to have "missed" it.....

Yes, but you're not answering the fact that you are asking the Socts & Italians to give up 50% of their slots, the Welsh & Irish to give up 33% and the French and English a mere 20%.

In the last 8 season there have been:

Winners:

Irish: 5
French: 2
English: 1

Finalists:

Irish: 6
French: 6
English: 4

Irish rugby is, by any yardstick, the strongest in stength & depth. The worst Irish side split the difference last season with the eventual AP Champions and lost by 8 points at the weekend.

by beshocked Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:41 pm

asoreleftshoulder

If you Irish had 4 really strong sides I would agree.

You have two really strong sides. One who has a average HC winning ratio but is recently doing well. The other being a minnow.

English clubs have at least 6 clubs with a better historical European match winning ratio than Ulster, let alone Connacht.

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:42 pm

Jimpy wrote:Is it a bank holiday in ireland or something?

Didn't you hear Jimpy. The banks not only took an extended holiday, they've taken all their pocket money with them. Ireland is now on permanent leave in banking terms until further notice

by beshocked Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:43 pm

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:I didn't say Saracens are historically a stronger side to Leinster or Munster. No I am not that foolish.

Saracens are not historically the strongest English side are they? They haven't done too much in Europe yet they have pretty good stats.

If we are talking like for like I'll post Leicester.

74 wins,4 draws, 34 losses - 66% win ratio

Wasps have

51 wins, 1 draw,26 losses - 65% ratio

Yes...England has quality sides. I don't dispute it, beshocked. What are your percentages presuming? Your percentages don't tell me anything about Connacht being in the HC because of what Leinster have been doing recently or why in years before why some French and English sides have been in it because of what their best sides were doing (and even - as I pointed out - because of what Irish provinces were achieving.) English or French sides have benefitted in the past because Leinster and Munster and Ulster couldn't benefit from the win-equals-extra-place rule as Connacht weren't considered strong enough by IRFU. And so either next best French or English sides benefitted instead.

English and French sides that had no right to be in HC on their own performance levels got there because of the HC rules. You can't argue away that point.

My point is that the Irish sides aren't head and shoulders above the English. Sure you are doing well recently but eventually the English and French will bite back.

My stats show that Connacht aren't competitive in the Amlin let alone the HC.

by beshocked Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:46 pm

debaters1 wrote:I'll repost this as you seem to have "missed" it.....

Yes, but you're not answering the fact that you are asking the Socts & Italians to give up 50% of their slots, the Welsh & Irish to give up 33% and the French and English a mere 20%.

In the last 8 season there have been:

Winners:

Irish: 5
French: 2
English: 1

Finalists:

Irish: 6
French: 6
English: 4

Irish rugby is, by any yardstick, the strongest in stength & depth. The worst Irish side split the difference last season with the eventual AP Champions and lost by 8 points at the weekend.

Why just mention the last 8 seasons? Wait a minute? It's because it's convenient for you.

Strength in depth? Ha!

The worst Irish side has a winning ratio of 25% in the HC and only 50% in the Amlin (this includes the likes of Romanians,Spanish,Super 10 Italian sides)

by Dubbelyew L Overate Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:47 pm

SecretFly wrote:7th pit of Hell.... just the very step next to the 6 English qualifiers. Yeah.. I've heard about it...some of them (the English top seeders) have heard of it too.

All but one of the English clubs have competed in the pool stages of the Amlin, and used it to fuel their ambition. They have the perspective which others lack.

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:57 pm

beshocked wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:I didn't say Saracens are historically a stronger side to Leinster or Munster. No I am not that foolish.

Saracens are not historically the strongest English side are they? They haven't done too much in Europe yet they have pretty good stats.

If we are talking like for like I'll post Leicester.

74 wins,4 draws, 34 losses - 66% win ratio

Wasps have

51 wins, 1 draw,26 losses - 65% ratio

Yes...England has quality sides. I don't dispute it, beshocked. What are your percentages presuming? Your percentages don't tell me anything about Connacht being in the HC because of what Leinster have been doing recently or why in years before why some French and English sides have been in it because of what their best sides were doing (and even - as I pointed out - because of what Irish provinces were achieving.) English or French sides have benefitted in the past because Leinster and Munster and Ulster couldn't benefit from the win-equals-extra-place rule as Connacht weren't considered strong enough by IRFU. And so either next best French or English sides benefitted instead.

English and French sides that had no right to be in HC on their own performance levels got there because of the HC rules. You can't argue away that point.

My point is that the Irish sides aren't head and shoulders above the English. Sure you are doing well recently but eventually the English and French will bite back.

My stats show that Connacht aren't competitive in the Amlin let alone the HC.

Who is saying they won't???? You're creating your own arguments and counter-arguments. This is not about who is in the ascendancy now or who is in the acendancy in the future. I'm the one mentioning the past. I'm the one mentioning that France and England are a big part of that past. I'm the one who didn't say Irish sides alone OWN this competition in ability...I said I look at history and I don't see two nations dominating...I see three. Not one...three - that includes England and France. But it also includes us - Irish. Which is something you shy away from admitting.

Of course England will win again (whatever the competition is that will include us all) of course France will. It could even be as early as this season. I'm not denying that. The truth is out there - life happens, why deny it.

BUT...that's the very point. Does England and France really have to change the goalposts structurally again to start winning again? Do they? It's quite a defeatist suggestion if you say to me they do need to change the system - they've benefitted from it in the past. They've won in the past, they've been finalists many times in the past. Are they truly saying that now they have to revert to pressurising for structural change in order to start winning again.

I have more faith in them than you. I say that's rubbish. It could be easily a French English final this year. To suggest it couldn't unless the rules change is not true.

But let's change the format then.... and yes, England will have winning sides again...and France too. But the structure change won't have improved their odds, they'll just have done the circuit and start winning again. But other sides will fall away and be back too. It's all cyclical.

by asoreleftshoulder Tue 23 Oct 2012, 2:58 pm

beshocked wrote:asoreleftshoulder

If you Irish had 4 really strong sides I would agree.

You have two really strong sides. One who has a average HC winning ratio but is recently doing well. The other being a minnow.

English clubs have at least 6 clubs with a better historical European match winning ratio than Ulster, let alone Connacht.

Well England doesn't have 6 really strong sides so why do they get 6 places if that's the criteria.

I am pretty sure Exeter will have a worse match winning ratio than Connacht come the end of the group stages,should they barred from future entry unless they can finish in the top 2 or 3 spots in England.

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 3:05 pm

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
SecretFly wrote:7th pit of Hell.... just the very step next to the 6 English qualifiers. Yeah.. I've heard about it...some of them (the English top seeders) have heard of it too.

All but one of the English clubs have competed in the pool stages of the Amlin, and used it to fuel their ambition. They have the perspective which others lack.

That's humble of them. And as they benefitted from Amlin experience, 6 of their buddies were still qualifying and playing in the HC. In other words, when some fell, they were still 6 English sides in the HC. An unfair advantage in that no matter what misfortune hits some of those English sides there is always miraculously six qualifying to play in the big one?

Meanwhile, the only perspective that truly matters is highest quality HC participation guaranteed. The Irish have it...the English have it.

by Guest Tue 23 Oct 2012, 4:04 pm

Secret, you are being disingenuous again! If there weren't 12 English and French teams in it, you wouldn't have a very big Euro competition that would be a commercial reality would you ?
The RFU wanted their old North, Midland, London & South west sides as the euro sides and scrap all semblance of a club competition. Trouble is that no English fans would pay towatch it and was considered a commercial no goer, that and the player contract issue.

I have said in the past that centrally controlled, top down structures with Euro competition as the priority over domestic leagues is a dangerous long term strategy. When it works, all is fine, but when it doesn't......which perhaps is why there is talk on here about the refocusing of priorities in the welsh club game.

by debaters1 Tue 23 Oct 2012, 4:08 pm

No beshocked, ive used the last 8 years as that it the life cycle of the current deal & structure. So again, please justify maintaining 6 places, dropping just 20%.

A failure bonus if ever there were one.

by asoreleftshoulder Tue 23 Oct 2012, 4:15 pm

Recwatcher wrote:Secret, you are being disingenuous again! If there weren't 12 English and French teams in it, you wouldn't have a very big Euro competition that would be a commercial reality would you ?
The RFU wanted their old North, Midland, London & South west sides as the euro sides and scrap all semblance of a club competition. Trouble is that no English fans would pay towatch it and was considered a commercial no goer, that and the player contract issue.

I have said in the past that centrally controlled, top down structures with Euro competition as the priority over domestic leagues is a dangerous long term strategy. When it works, all is fine, but when it doesn't......which perhaps is why there is talk on here about the refocusing of priorities in the welsh club game.

How is it worse than the club owned structure which has already ruined football.There is no difference and rugby in England and France is going down the same path of having the same few teams involved with the monopoly only being broken by a club which is bought as a rich mans plaything.France is far further down this path but England will get there too.

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 4:57 pm

Recwatcher wrote:Secret, you are being disingenuous again! If there weren't 12 English and French teams in it, you wouldn't have a very big Euro competition that would be a commercial reality would you ?

Disingenuous???

So, Recwatcher, I have to admit that England and France should have the natural Lions share of a 'FAIR' competition (and also at the same time admit that my nation should lose out in numbers to keep it 'FAIR') in order to fit your profile of a person who isn't being disingenuous???

I'd say go back to your definition of disingenuousness. It certainly does not mean 'capitulation' or 'surrender'.

How many French and English sides were in it when Toulouse won it for the first time?
How many French and English sides were in it when Bath won it for the first time?
How many non 6 Nation sides do the PRL already want to invite into it?

5 English, 6 French, 4 Irish, 3 Welsh, 2 Scottish, 2 Italian. That's one possible alternative.
5 English, 5 French, 4 Irish, 4 Welsh, 2 Scottish, 2 Italian. That's another alternative.
4 English, 4 French, 4 Irish, 4 Welsh, 2 Scottish, 2 Italian, 2 Romanian. That's another alternative.
3 English, 4 French, 3 Irish, 2 Welsh, 2 Scottish, 2 Italian, 2 Romanian, 2 Russian, 2 Spanish. And there's another one. (a BT/PRL super selection Wink

)

No, there is not ONE piece of incontrovertible logic that tells me I have to accept the idea of 6 French and 6 English sides in a pan-European competition. Not one.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Tue 23 Oct 2012, 5:10 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
SecretFly wrote:7th pit of Hell.... just the very step next to the 6 English qualifiers. Yeah.. I've heard about it...some of them (the English top seeders) have heard of it too.

All but one of the English clubs have competed in the pool stages of the Amlin, and used it to fuel their ambition. They have the perspective which others lack.

That's humble of them. And as they benefitted from Amlin experience, 6 of their buddies were still qualifying and playing in the HC. In other words, when some fell, they were still 6 English sides in the HC. An unfair advantage in that no matter what misfortune hits some of those English sides there is always miraculously six qualifying to play in the big one?

Meanwhile, the only perspective that truly matters is highest quality HC participation ~~guaranteed~~ regardless of nationality. ~~The Irish have it...the English have it~~.

Fixed that for you

by debaters1 Tue 23 Oct 2012, 5:33 pm

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
SecretFly wrote:7th pit of Hell.... just the very step next to the 6 English qualifiers. Yeah.. I've heard about it...some of them (the English top seeders) have heard of it too.

All but one of the English clubs have competed in the pool stages of the Amlin, and used it to fuel their ambition. They have the perspective which others lack.

That's humble of them. And as they benefitted from Amlin experience, 6 of their buddies were still qualifying and playing in the HC. In other words, when some fell, they were still 6 English sides in the HC. An unfair advantage in that no matter what misfortune hits some of those English sides there is always miraculously six qualifying to play in the big one?

Meanwhile, the only perspective that truly matters is highest quality HC participation ~~guaranteed~~ regardless of nationality. ~~The Irish have it...the English have it~~.

Fixed that for you

In which case there wouldn't be too many English teams. National self interest has to prevail, otherwise what's the point in running the competition as you are asking everyone else to be altruistic except yourselves. Someone suggested that it be a points hyper league that decides the HC spots, but that doesn't work as there are 12 teams in the AP and Rabo & 14 in the Top 14 (obvs) so the French clubs have the oppotunity to score 10 points more that the English or Rabo teams.

Please show us why the turkeys should vote for Christmas? I have no problem admitting the IRFU relies on this money to run its organisation, but all four provinces are in the black. Only 4 of 12 Aviva teams ran at breakeven/profit last season. Now ask yourself which model is sustainable...

by debaters1 Tue 23 Oct 2012, 5:40 pm

Oh, as for success and contribution, france have had 14 Finalists, winning 5, England 10 Finalists winning 6 and Ireland 9 Finalists and winning 6.

Without question the Munster fans are the best travelling support and more teams move games to bigger stadia when drawn against an Irish team.

When Toulouse & Perpignan were paired in the Final in 2003, they moaned and wanted the match moved to Paris. When Ulster & Leinster were paired for last year's final in London, they spent their money.

You keep talking about wanted the highest standard of Euro comp, but where are all these English teams meeting said standard? These things come in cycles of course, but no English team has offered consistant performance over the past number of seasons. Leicester are a heavy weight and are always there or thereabouts, but 4 of the other 5 English sides in any given season are also rans.

by Hound_of_Harrow Tue 23 Oct 2012, 5:52 pm

I looked at the title of this article and thought there would be some insightful views into why some teams were off to a flyer in the HC, and why others seem to have fallen off a cliff.

Sorry, I was wrong.

Run

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 5:56 pm

Okay Dubbelyew. I'll make it simple for you.

Pro12 = 12 sides.

Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht are a distinct grouping in the Pro12.

Why?

Because they are what are generally described as Irish sides. They help the IRFU, the IRFU helps Irish International. They're Irish.

Now, let's say Pro12 turns into a first 6 or a first 8 to qualify for HC. No national allocation just the first 6 or 8.

Now, let's also suggest Irish sides go through a particularly bad period of some 5 or 6 years. They hover at the bottom for 5 or 6 straight years... the bottom 4 on each occasion.

What happens? No Leinster, Munster, Ulster or Connacht in HC. (So what? Nobody 'ill miss 'em) I know, I know - certainly the winners won't. Wink

Anyway... that means five or six solid years of Irish downfall. No European HC involvement, no money coming in, IRFU beginning to panic, players starting to look elsewhere for careers, International side wilting under the strain. (Good! - That's their problem)

Now - let's do the same for AP.

Aviva Premiership = 12 sides.

Leicester, Saints, Harlequins and Saracens are a distinct grouping in the AP.

Why?

Because they are what are generally described as the best sides in it. They help the RFU, the RFU helps England International. They're English.

Now, AP is currently a first-six-past-the-post; top six qualifies for the 6 automatic English places in HC.

Now, let's also suggest the four top AP sides (Saints, Saracens, Leicester and Harlequins) go through a particularly bad period of some 5 or 6 years. They hover at the bottom for 5 or 6 straight years... the bottom 4 on each occasion.

What happens? No Saints, Saracens, Leicester or Harlequins in HC. (So what? Nobody 'ill miss 'em) I know, I know - because they'll have four automatic replacements + two more just for fun!!!

Anyway... that means no need to worry about English club rugby downfall. European HC involvement continues, money keeps coming in, RFU don't panic, new English players enjoy their HC careers, International side is refreshed with more HC standard players. (Good! - That's their right).

But don't worry, Dubbelyew. I know you'll still pretend not to understand the point. Affected ignorance sure do come in handy in a debate.

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 5:58 pm

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:I looked at the title of this article and thought there would be some insightful views into why some teams were off to a flyer in the HC, and why others seem to have fallen off a cliff.

Sorry, I was wrong.

Yeah...that all went ape shyte when one wit suggested a side that won one and lost another was actually in a worse postiion than most of the guys who lost 2 games on the trot...and shouldn't be involved anyway as their 'history' in the competition is pathetic.

Yep, that kinda killed the direction of the thread.... Wink

by beshocked Tue 23 Oct 2012, 6:15 pm

Secretfly statistically speaking they are in an awful position. Of course strength of opposition means little to you.

The 2nd worst side in the HC should of course be commended for beating the weakest. HC quarter finals await this legendary side.

The sides who have lost two games have faced tougher opposition.

If the likes of Edinburgh, Treviso,Exeter had faced Zebre I reckon they might fancy their chances of a win.

by asoreleftshoulder Tue 23 Oct 2012, 6:23 pm

beshocked wrote:Secretfly statistically speaking they are in an awful position. Of course strength of opposition means little to you.

The 2nd worst side in the HC should of course be commended for beating the weakest. HC quarter finals await this legendary side.

The sides who have lost two games have faced tougher opposition.

If the likes of Edinburgh, Treviso,Exeter had faced Zebre I reckon they might fancy their chances of a win.

It must mean little to you too or you would understand why Connacht only won one game last season compared with London Irish who won 2 yet were a far poorer side.

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 6:39 pm

beshocked wrote:Secretfly statistically speaking they are in an awful position. Of course strength of opposition means little to you.

The 2nd worst side in the HC should of course be commended for beating the weakest. HC quarter finals await this legendary side.

The sides who have lost two games have faced tougher opposition.

If the likes of Edinburgh, Treviso,Exeter had faced Zebre I reckon they might fancy their chances of a win.

Again, again, again - that is not the point beshocked. It's not the point. The point isn't that they are the worst (bar Zebre) in the contest, or that they shouldn't be in the contest or that they're Ireland's unfair 100% shot at the Golden Ticket. The point is that your opinion on them doesn't matter - they're there on merit ( on the merit of the same rules that English sides have entered the competition on in the past) plus they have one win and one loss. Your opinion on the merit of the losses and wins is also not important to the idea that they are where they are ...and other sides right now aren't.

First two games is a very bad yardstick anyway to judge the HC competition at all. The book on this year's event is a long way from being written... a good few twists in the tale before the end. But Connacht are where they are, regardless of your opinions (legitmate and all as they undoubtedly are) - the coming months will tell the full tale of Connacht so the chat should go back to where the thread directed it...to the 'losers' of the first fortnight

by yappysnap Tue 23 Oct 2012, 6:58 pm

I can't beliee you guys are still arguing this! Seriously you're all masochistic!

Leave your PC screens, go to the hall, at the end of the hall is a door, open that door and outside is a bright new world, be free...

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 7:11 pm

I checked the bright new world.... cold, damp, dark, ..................

nah, I'll stay by the PC screen for another few years until the Great Depression passes. Now where was I?

Em...oh yeah,................... completely and utterly wrong beshocked! Connacht will be in the final against Clermont in Dublin. The absolute classic of classics. I predict 68 - 73, but I can't work out which side will take the cup yet.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Tue 23 Oct 2012, 8:07 pm

[quote="SecretFly"]...... Anyway... that means five or six solid years of Irish downfall. No European HC involvement, no money coming in, IRFU beginning to panic, players starting to look elsewhere for careers, International side wilting under the strain. (Good! - That's their problem)....
quote]

Do you not think that participation in the Amlin brings in money, or that the Amlin can allow international players like Lydiate, Charteris and Faletau to come to prominence and flourish?

Seriously, have a think about how the Amlin does, and will, fit into the Euro season (and, since you raise it, the finances), please, and how much better it will be if it becomes more competitive under the Anglo-French proposals.

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 8:22 pm

[quote="Dubbelyew L Overate"]

SecretFly wrote:...... Anyway... that means five or six solid years of Irish downfall. No European HC involvement, no money coming in, IRFU beginning to panic, players starting to look elsewhere for careers, International side wilting under the strain. (Good! - That's their problem)....
quote]

Do you not think that participation in the Amlin brings in money, or that the Amlin can allow international players like Lydiate, Charteris and Faletau to come to prominence and flourish?

Seriously, have a think about how the Amlin does, and will, fit into the Euro season (and, since you raise it, the finances), please, and how much better it will be if it becomes more competitive under the Anglo-French proposals.

There's my very point. "The Amlin ain't all that bad, you'd like it if you tried it". A little dismissive as a suggestion but.... maybe so, maybe so. (Do I sound convinced? Wink

)

No, I prefer the elite competition - and the PRL like those 6 guaranteed English places every year too. Wink

It's always there as a focal point to keep the high end rugby instincts alive.
Amlin ain't HC, Dubbelyew...and no, it wouldn't satisfy me that all Irish sides could theoretically drop to it when guarantees (under some proposals) were ended. That would just be an insult, a slap in the face, after all Irish sides have achieved in helping (along with England and France) make HC what it now is.

English have guaranteed places? French have guaranteed places? - then Ireland will want guaranteed places. It doesn't get any simpler really. We're all out for ourselves in this one. PRL/RFU will defend its interests. We'll defend ours.

by HammerofThunor Tue 23 Oct 2012, 8:28 pm

I thought the IRFU had a counter proposal for the 8,6,6 with entry based on league position only? Was it Pot Hale who posted that? Definitely an Irish poster, although I don't remember ever reading it in a quote.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Tue 23 Oct 2012, 8:40 pm

[quote="SecretFly"]

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:
SecretFly wrote:...... Anyway... that means five or six solid years of Irish downfall. No European HC involvement, no money coming in, IRFU beginning to panic, players starting to look elsewhere for careers, International side wilting under the strain. (Good! - That's their problem)....
quote]

Do you not think that participation in the Amlin brings in money, or that the Amlin can allow international players like Lydiate, Charteris and Faletau to come to prominence and flourish?

Seriously, have a think about how the Amlin does, and will, fit into the Euro season (and, since you raise it, the finances), please, and how much better it will be if it becomes more competitive under the Anglo-French proposals.

There's my very point. "The Amlin ain't all that bad, you'd like it if you tried it". A little dismissive as a suggestion but.... maybe so, maybe so. (Do I sound convinced? )

No, I prefer the elite competition - and the PRL like those 6 guaranteed English places every year too. It's always there as a focal point to keep the high end rugby instincts alive.
Amlin ain't HC, Dubbelyew...and no, it wouldn't satisfy me that all Irish sides could theoretically drop to it when guarantees (under some proposals) were ended. That would just be an insult, a slap in the face, after all Irish sides have achieved in helping (along with England and France) make HC what it now is.

English have guaranteed places? French have guaranteed places? - then Ireland will want guaranteed places. It doesn't get any simpler really. We're all out for ourselves in this one. PRL/RFU will defend its interests. We'll defend ours.

It's not in any current proposals, and nationalistic self-interest will no doubt deny it, but its my contention that no nations' teams have guaranteed entry to HC, all teams have to earn it, and not in domestic leagues, but in the previous year's HC and Amlin.

The Amlin becomes the bread and butter (both financial and playing standards), while the HC rewards the excellent with a bit of jam.

We can agree to differ (different perspectives and all that), but I believe that Europe deserves a truly elite competition, not a fudge between development and elite.

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 8:53 pm

So how do you 'fairly' start all that off? Choose who should now start off in a new structured contest _ Higher and Lower competition - based on....what???

Based on the direction of this year's contest? Or based on the direction of next year's? When do we decide when to begin this new two tier contest based on the past year's exploits. That might be very unfortunate for some sides that've chosen the next year of two to 'develop' or 'reorganise' etc.

What fair proposal would drop the first select Elite sides into a HC type contest and the rest into an Amlin style one?

Or do we all start out in the new venture and take five years in a general contest, including all potential sides, until that competition can separate men from boys?

Although, it does seem to me that your prosposal is quite simply a European league proposal with then a top competition for that select few?

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 8:55 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:I thought the IRFU had a counter proposal for the 8,6,6 with entry based on league position only? Was it Pot Hale who posted that? Definitely an Irish poster, although I don't remember ever reading it in a quote.

Might be a proposal..but seriously, I've never read anything about IRFU proposals. They mouthed that the competition will inevitably need restructuring but nope, never heard what their numbers were on it.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Tue 23 Oct 2012, 9:11 pm

At the transition, HC quarter finalists retain new HC spots, next 12 playoff against both each other and 5-8 places in Amlin for 4 new HC places, 4 top Amlin finishers get into new HC, bottom 4 of HC play in new Amlin. That's based on 16 team new HC.

There'll be variations on the theme, it'll be harsh on some, but teams should have the realistic opportunity to earn an HC place in following seasons. It'll also filter out those teams that qualify for HC through domestic leagues, but put out half-hearted away teams in the HC.

by SecretFly Tue 23 Oct 2012, 9:28 pm

16 teams? - I'll work on that and get back to you sometime Dubbelyew.

But I warn you, if I find any hidden absolute 'guarantees' of English or French involvement in the HC part and no 'guarantee' for the rest of us, then its a no goer. Absolute parity of esteem on participation guarantees/or not is what I'm after.... anything else is not acceptable. I'm not interested in supporting the notion that French and English club rugby is always elite standard based on nothing but its sheer number advantages in Europe itself. A true Elite contest is the only deal that would take me away from the present one.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Tue 23 Oct 2012, 9:33 pm

SecretFly wrote:16 teams? - I'll work on that and get back to you sometime Dubbelyew.

But I warn you, if I find any hidden absolute 'guarantees' of English or French involvement in the HC part and no 'guarantee' for the rest of us, then its a no goer. Absolute parity of esteem on participation guarantees/or not is what I'm after.... anything else is not acceptable. I'm not interested in supporting the notion that French and English club rugby is always elite standard based on nothing but its sheer number advantages in Europe itself. A true Elite contest is the only deal that would take me away from the present one.

Truly elite is what I'm after, and if you concur, it'll be the two of us against the world. We'll lose, but what the hell.

by debaters1 Tue 23 Oct 2012, 11:56 pm

Dubble, you might be after a 'truly' elite comp, you are not going to get the one you want, as I fairly sure I think either last year or is it the last two years (?!) that that would mean the bare minimum of English representation, something in the order of 3 maybe four sides maximum. Premier Rugby AND the RFU won't buy what you are selling there, never mind the French and the other Unions.

by Dubbelyew L Overate Wed 24 Oct 2012, 1:28 am

Aye Debaters, they all lack vision. Come the revolution, they'll be up against the wall, amongst a fairly long list of mine.

by Kingshu Wed 24 Oct 2012, 9:27 am

Mentioned this on another thread, what about 5,5,8?

English and French lose 1 place, Pro 12 Unions lose 2.

Then award the top two performing leagues, using a co-efficient based on European performance, an extra place each? (if Pro 12 it is highest non qualified team, not going to any Union)

Means England and France will enter 5-6 teams, Pro 12 Unions 8-9 teams.

Keeps teams performing (like the French who are known to put out weakened teams when qualification hopes are gone), otherwise they may have fewer teams the next year, or have a chance of getting an extra team in.

by HammerofThunor Wed 24 Oct 2012, 12:22 pm

SecretFly wrote:
beshocked wrote:Secretfly you might be right in a hypothetical situation but we can talk about other hypothetical situations.

English and French sides have been complaining about the amount of Pro12 sides in the HC for some time but there has to come a time when the French and English put their foot down and say enough is enough.

No more gravy train and hanging of coat tails.

Beshocked, there is Nothing hypothetical about the Heineken Cup. Nothing. It exists, it has its rules - it had a beginning date, it had its signatories to start it up. There is NO hypothetical aspect to the Heineken Cup. It has its present and it has its past.

Now, your line above again about enough being enough gives the arrogant stamp (and lie) that the English and French started the competition and, in their good nature, invited a few Celts to join them. Reminding them to stay quiet and just add to the 'European feel'. But never to think of winning, as that was for the historical big French and English sides to battle over.

>In fact, the first HC had neither England nor Scotland. France, Wales and Ireland shared three places each and maybe Romania should be comlaining that England eventually took their original spot? Oh also, Italy was there too...before Scotland and England.

>2nd year it was more like it is today. The blow-ins arrive. But then Wales had 4, Ireland had 3 and England and France had only 4 apiece. Hmmm - Interesting. Wales and France go up one but Ireland stays the same.

>3rd year. Same as the one before it

>4th year. England missing again because of internal grievances. France suddenly jump to 5 places simply because Scotland lose one.

>5th year. Ulster won the previous year but what happens? England and France jump to six places each! And Wales goes to five! So much for winning ways improving your chances the following year

>6th year. Things settle down and follow the previous year's pattern.

>7th year. Same as last time.

>8th year. Same as last time.

>9th year. Same as last time.

>10th year. First year of the extra place for finishing position! Who benefits first? You guessed it - England. Wales take the pain and go back down to 4 places

>11th year. France benefit from the extra slot.

>12th year. Munster won it the year before. Who gets the extra slot? Ireland? No, good guess though. France!

>13th year. Wasps win it previous year. Natural law uncannily resumes and England take the extra slot.

>14th year. Munster win the previous year...but still no extra slot. What's the lucky side to get it this year? France again! Lucky devils.

>15th year. Leinster now win it the previous year. Ireland get the extra slot? You gotta be kidding me. England get it.

>16th year. Toulouse won the previous year and all is right with the world again. France takes the extra slot.

>17th year. First appearance of infamous Connacht. There finally because Leinster won the previous year.

>18th year. Connacht becoming an absolute pest now and there again because Leinster won again.

Nothing hypothetical about HC. It's there in print. On specifically four occasions French or English sides directly hung onto the coat-tails of Irish Provinical success. So I don't think that many outside observers would be all that sympathetic to the sudden call for 'fairness' now on looking back at the past.

There were two extra spots in that period (c2003-c2010)

1) Went to the country that got the furthest out of Italy, France and England
2) Went the winning of a Celtic league/Italian league playoff (generally the Dragons unless they lost to the Italian team, it happened at least once).

The winner of the HEC was only given an extra spot from around 2010 when the Italians joined the PRO12.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 24 Oct 2012, 12:42 pm

Thunor - the winner of the CelticLeague-Italian play off was not gernerally the Dragons, I think the Blues won it twice, the Dragons once, and Overmarch Parma once.

by SecretFly Wed 24 Oct 2012, 1:02 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
There were two extra spots in that period (c2003-c2010)

1) Went to the country that got the furthest out of Italy, France and England
2) Went the winning of a Celtic league/Italian league playoff (generally the Dragons unless they lost to the Italian team, it happened at least once).

The list speaks for itself Hammer. France started with three sides...just like Ireland and Wales. And bit by bit, change by change, Ireland stay at 3 and England and France shift up to 6 apiece. France and England haven't been having such a bad time as they'd now have us believe with old HC. Indeed, you might say, if you were being mischevous, that as their numbers have increased their winning ratios have decreased.

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