H-Cup, First block finished winners and losers.

First topic message reminder :

tables are here

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/tables/4776687.stm

Normally its accepted if you lose your first two games your chances are qualifing are over. In those terms it appears that the chances of progressing are already gone for;
Edinburgh
Terviso
Zebre
Glasgow
Exeter
Scarlets
Cardiff Blues

Do any of these supports still hold hope of progress, or is it now a battle to salvage some pride?

Teams that have impressed are Saracens, Ulster, Toulouse, Harlequins, Clermont Auvergne, Leinster and Toulon. All are 2 wins from 2.

I'd say the stand out so far are Clermont Auvergne picking up two BP wins, and Saracens are playing really well in Europe.

Have to say dissapointed in Edinburgh, two big losses and not a point scored, (abeit against two top teams), for last years semi-finalists.

So do the fans of the teams with two loses hold out any hope, and who has impressed/disappointed you?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You could have picked a better example than Connacht right now... they have one win and one loss (22 - 30 to the second placed side in AP).

Hardly evidence that they're not of the standard. They might get around to proving they're not up to standard later down the line but as yet, the evidence isn't there.

+1

The only teams that haven't been competitive so far are Edinburgh and Zebre, and Edinburgh can point to last season's semi-final as justification for inclusion.

Doesn't stop me wanting a reduction to 16 teams, though, with meriticratic qualification instead of national.

You only have to listen to Sky commentators, the English ones, to realise that 'national' allocation - and success - is very much a part of the the lure of HEC itself. Sorry, but I think national allocations are very important. It allows us all to have an input...as nations. The quality rises to the top when the competition starts, not when it is pre-planned, pre-judged and a red carpet thrown out for the 'cream' of Europe. It is not a best of Europe competition - it as a best in Europe contest. You work for your reputation when you're playing in it not before.

Besides 16 teams? 6 English, 6 French and only one candidate each from the other nations? So much for Meritocratic selection!

Just going by the lastest club rankings, based on current form.

http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

Connacht are 27th
Sale Sharks 32nd

Or on ERC ranking points
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/ranking.php

Connacht 24th
Sale Sharks 25th

No body is saying Sale arn't good enough and shouldn't be there, yet a team currenlty ranked better(currently and in European comp) than them are recieving flack?

I think Connacht deserve a break they have the hardest method of qualification out of all the teams that take part. Would fans of any other team swap your qualification method with Connacht. Think you have a good chance of finishing higher than Munster, Leinster or Ulster?

Nah if it is 16 teams - max 4 from england and France.

any way shame a HERSH wum has derailed what could have been a good discussion.

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You could have picked a better example than Connacht right now... they have one win and one loss (22 - 30 to the second placed side in AP).

Hardly evidence that they're not of the standard. They might get around to proving they're not up to standard later down the line but as yet, the evidence isn't there.

Yup they won against probably the worst side in the competition by some margin. Well done.

4th Irish side deserve to be in the HC because they can beat Zebre.

beshocked...go easy. You'll ruin the idea I had that you really did have an open mind on the detail. To come out with that load of.............. wayward reasoning! - only suggests that you have an old chip cutting deeply into your shoulder.

beshocked wrote:

whocares wrote:

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You could have picked a better example than Connacht right now... they have one win and one loss (22 - 30 to the second placed side in AP).

Hardly evidence that they're not of the standard. They might get around to proving they're not up to standard later down the line but as yet, the evidence isn't there.

Yup they won against probably the worst side in the competition by some margin. Well done.

4th Irish side deserve to be in the HC because they can beat Zebre.

Connacht gave a game to Harlequins and did their job against Zebre : this is on par to slightly better than say Biarritz.
Unless you want to decrease the number of teams participating to 16, Connacht have their place in the HC.
However it would good that decent teams like Connacht participate in the Amlin Cup who is losing credibility due to the lack of pro12 teams (its turning into a anglo french affair with hardly any surprises).

Biarritz have a very poor record in the HC don't they? Have you seen their home record in the HC?

Funny guy whocares. I would expect their win ratio to be higher than 25% in the Amlin at least.

Sometimes I wonder if any of you guys actually ever look at wins/losses stats.

who's talking about win/loss ratio stats over the last couple of years? not me.
just a cheeky comment on the fact that so far after 2 games, Biarritz and Connacht each lose against Harlequins and each won against Zebre...
Biarritz is not the major force they used to be anyway. their heydays are well behind, ageing class players like harinordoquy or yachvili will be replaced by average players and sooner or later they will become another Agen or Bayonne.

Biarritz have a much better record in the HC than Saracens. At least BO made a couple of finals.

And Connacht have 1 win so far, the same amount that Sarries got 2 seasons ago.

whocares wrote:

beshocked wrote:Winning two HC games out of 8 is competitive?

I don't want to know what not being competitive is!

in any competition you need to have winners or losers and for leinster or clermont to win most of their games, you need some teams to lose more games than they win...so far its only logic.

by non competitive, you could just look at Edimburgh currently : 30+ margin loss and not really that bothered.

Yes but to be fair to Edinburgh they do have that semi final last season they can fall back on. They have achieved something recently of note. Getting to a semi final and beating Toulouse to get there is good. You might say their group wasn't the toughest but they topped the group and prevailed over the 4 time European champions who went on to be French champions.

Plus Edinburgh have faced stronger sides than the 4th Irish side overall this season in the HC too. Which group would you rather be in? Edinburgh faced two HC quarter finalists from last season.

In contrast Connacht faced by far the weakest side in the competition and an English side they have beaten before. Quins are of course a very good side but Connacht were licking their lips at the opportunity.

LondonTiger wrote:Nah if it is 16 teams - max 4 from england and France.

any way shame a HERSH wum has derailed what could have been a good discussion.

Hersh's wum was derailed when the junk started about who should and shouldn't even be on the lists in the first place - regardless of games won or lost. The *yawn' factor, we'll call it.

Kingshu wrote:Just going by the lastest club rankings, based on current form.

http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

Connacht are 27th
Sale Sharks 32nd

Or on ERC ranking points
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/ranking.php

Connacht 24th
Sale Sharks 25th

No body is saying Sale arn't good enough and shouldn't be there, yet a team currenlty ranked better(currently and in European comp) than them are recieving flack?

I think Connacht deserve a break they have the hardest method of qualification out of all the teams that take part. Would fans of any other team swap your qualification method with Connacht. Think you have a good chance of finishing higher than Munster, Leinster or Ulster?

The difference is, Sale earnt their place, they weren't gifted it just because they happen to have the misfortune of being a bus stop near Manchester.

Mickado wrote:Biarritz have a much better record in the HC than Saracens. At least BO made a couple of finals.

And Connacht have 1 win so far, the same amount that Sarries got 2 seasons ago.

Mickado again look at the groups? Do you think that Leinster and Clermont are weak sides or something?

Comparing Connacht to Sarries is just silly.

You don't seem to understand that some groups are much harder than others.

Actually I will check the win ratios of Sarries and Biarritz.

Certainly both are higher than 25%

Edit: also Sarries have dumped Biarritz out of 2 HCs.

Yes, Exeter are in a tough group, something which i acknowedged in my second line. But going on the basis of your criteria, Exeter do no deserve their place. I also find your arguement regarding Quins pretty curious, they are a) Champions and b) in second place having lost 2 games this season. So while in the middle of any campaign you can make a resonable aregument as to why 3 or 4 teams will win the Jeff, Quins are thus far doing a solid job defending their title, certainly no worse than Toulouse are in the the Top 14 or Leinster in the Rabo. But whiy let facts like that hinder your myopia.

As for Connacht, well, they are there due to the success of Leinster, noone is arguing against that fact, but it sutied the French & English teams before to benefit from an extra spot, so don't cry over it now beig Connacht.

Also, and lets just remind you of a salient fact, Connacht beat Quins last season in January to deny Quins a Q/F spot. They had run them close away from home and were agai unlucky to get nothing from the game, but any side that is able to ruin someone else's party by beating them, is worthy of their spot. Remeber, this is the Quins team that won the Aviva, playing the best rugby in said comp and are now backing that win up by being 6 of 8 games this season and in 2nd in the Jeff & top of their HC group.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

HERSH wrote:It does make a mockery of the HC as those teams with two defeats are pretty much out of it already and may field weakened teams to rest players due to the long season.

The only thing thats making a mockery of the HC is fans like you, who dont appreciate how good a competition it is.

But it's not a great competition, it could be if it was a level playing field in terms of qualifying for it, plus it should be a club competition only like the Football European cup.

beshocked wrote:

In contrast Connacht faced by far the weakest side in the competition and an English side they have beaten before. Quins are of course a very good side but Connacht were licking their lips at the opportunity.

beshocked...you know yourself that that argument you present is absolute crud...I don't usually say it so clearly..but it really is rubbish - and the good thing is that you already know it - thankfully!. You're bluffing to sustain an argument that doesn't work.

Connacht have beaten Quins before and therefore they don't have to be good to beat a really good side again, just turn up and play on memories and nostalgia. Bunk.

Recwatcher wrote:Factors teams need for a successful HC campaign;

- several current Test players, preferably from the same team,
- a fully fit & 'rested' first 22,
- familiarity with the refs,
- preferably an Italian team in your pool,
- an international flyhalf & TH prop are a must, and
- a bit of luck....

That's all you need to know about the winners & losers.

I agree with a lot of this, but question parts as well.
- I think it is more than just Test players, they have to be seasoned leaders at Test level (Johnson, Pelous, Clerk, POC, ROG, BOD, Dayglo). There was always something in those leaders that you don't find in a young Sexton, Hartley, Laidlaw
- A fit 22 is the key for me. The rested description is a bit of a red herring, as to keep you main 22 healthy there needs to be rotation.
- Having an italian team gives a second team out of the group usually, but do the eventual winners tend to come out of those groups? I can't remember Leinster having a lot of italian teams in their groups in recent years (though I'm open to be corrected). It could be that having a proper tough group, hardens you, gives you that killer edge that stands to you for the rest of the campaign.
- Definitely agree that set-piece and decision making are also key. I'd add the hooker in with the TH as they are a key component for lineout, the TH is needed for scrum. Then flyhalf qualities have to be decision making and being able to take the points on offer.
- every team needs a bit of luck (Leinster needed Fofana to bounce the ball loose when smacking his elbow over the line in the final moments of that Clermont away game)

Obs should have clarified Leinster as defending Euro Champs and their current domestic standing. Not tryying to do the Ospreys out of their well earned Rabo title!!!

Jimpy wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Just going by the lastest club rankings, based on current form.

http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

Connacht are 27th
Sale Sharks 32nd

Or on ERC ranking points
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/ranking.php

Connacht 24th
Sale Sharks 25th

No body is saying Sale arn't good enough and shouldn't be there, yet a team currenlty ranked better(currently and in European comp) than them are recieving flack?

I think Connacht deserve a break they have the hardest method of qualification out of all the teams that take part. Would fans of any other team swap your qualification method with Connacht. Think you have a good chance of finishing higher than Munster, Leinster or Ulster?

The difference is, Sale earnt their place, they weren't gifted it just because they happen to have the misfortune of being a bus stop near Manchester.

Nobody was saying anything when it was an extra French team or Harlequins its only come up since its been Connacht. Lets be fair would Exeter, Harlequins, Tigers, Biarritz, Dragons or anyone swap the way they qualify with Connacht?

debaters1

Connacht have not earnt HC qualification by their own merits. That's the biggest problem. They have done very little in the HC to even justify their place.

Their 2 wins out of 8 is shocking.

Quins have beaten Connacht 4 out of 5 times. Yes Connacht got a lucky win but it's proven to just be a flash in the pan. The superior side has dominated the head to head.

Exeter came 5th in the AP so qualified on merit. They didn't hang on coat tails of any other club side.

Quins have been beaten this season. Guess which two sides they were.

HERSH wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

HERSH wrote:It does make a mockery of the HC as those teams with two defeats are pretty much out of it already and may field weakened teams to rest players due to the long season.

The only thing thats making a mockery of the HC is fans like you, who dont appreciate how good a competition it is.

But it's not a great competition, it could be if it was a level playing field in terms of qualifying for it, plus it should be a club competition only like the Football European cup.

So go watch your Football European Cup with the Russian oil money sides facing the.... well maybe a Mafia money or a American billionaire side. Great stuff - quality coming to the surface when the chequebook is blank enough.

HERSH wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

HERSH wrote:It does make a mockery of the HC as those teams with two defeats are pretty much out of it already and may field weakened teams to rest players due to the long season.

The only thing thats making a mockery of the HC is fans like you, who dont appreciate how good a competition it is.

But it's not a great competition, it could be if it was a level playing field in terms of qualifying for it, plus it should be a club competition only like the Football European cup.

Isn't the champions league not set up by the football unions with each union awarded a certain number of places to award to their representatives as they see fit? (couldn't the FA if they chose, give a champions league spot to the winner of the FA Cup for example).

HERSH wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

HERSH wrote:It does make a mockery of the HC as those teams with two defeats are pretty much out of it already and may field weakened teams to rest players due to the long season.

The only thing thats making a mockery of the HC is fans like you, who dont appreciate how good a competition it is.

But it's not a great competition, it could be if it was a level playing field in terms of qualifying for it, plus it should be a club competition only like the Football European cup.

If you don't think it's a good competition don't watch it or comment on it. there's on "off" switch on both your telly and your computer. it would certainly give 606ers a break from you.......

Hersh, why should we copy the way UEFA runs their competition? Seriously, please justify this statement.

Secondly, how would you qualify teams for this 16 team format? And why do you believe it would be a 'better' competition?

tatterd wrote:

HERSH wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

HERSH wrote:It does make a mockery of the HC as those teams with two defeats are pretty much out of it already and may field weakened teams to rest players due to the long season.

The only thing thats making a mockery of the HC is fans like you, who dont appreciate how good a competition it is.

But it's not a great competition, it could be if it was a level playing field in terms of qualifying for it, plus it should be a club competition only like the Football European cup.

If you don't think it's a good competition don't watch it or comment on it. there's on "off" switch on both your telly and your computer. it would certainly give 606ers a break from you.......

You can't say that to HERSH, its against 606 rules don't you know...

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

In contrast Connacht faced by far the weakest side in the competition and an English side they have beaten before. Quins are of course a very good side but Connacht were licking their lips at the opportunity.

beshocked...you know yourself that that argument you present is absolute crud...I don't usually say it so clearly..but it really is rubbish - and the good thing is that you already know it - thankfully!. You're bluffing to sustain an argument that doesn't work.

Connacht have beaten Quins before and therefore they don't have to be good to beat a really good side again, just turn up and play on memories and nostalgia. Bunk.

Connacht aren't a good side. If they were they wouldn't lose so many matches.

The only arguments I have seen in Connacht's favour are that they are a good side because they can win 1 match vs Quins in 5 encounters. They can also defeat Zebre. This means they deserve their place because they can pick up two wins in 8 matches in the HC.

Wait I apologise the other argument is - Connacht deserve to be in the HC because Leinster have won the HC. That's why Connacht - a completely different side deserve to be in the HC.

But it should be a club competition.

It's farcical to expect little clubs to qualify and then have to beat these hybrid Regions/Provinces that walk into the HC because their Unions turned their backs on their fans and club systems.

It’s a joke, and it’s wrong.

Beshocked, shocker English Champions better than the worst irish side. Bet that fills Conor O'Shea with glee. FFS, you're not moanig about the 7th french team. So please be consistant, that I could at least respect.

HERSH wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

HERSH wrote:It does make a mockery of the HC as those teams with two defeats are pretty much out of it already and may field weakened teams to rest players due to the long season.

The only thing thats making a mockery of the HC is fans like you, who dont appreciate how good a competition it is.

But it's not a great competition, it could be if it was a level playing field in terms of qualifying for it, plus it should be a club competition only like the Football European cup.

Take it this is a dig at provinces being in it, as I undersatnd it the H-cup is for the top Domestic teams in Europe. In Ireland we have and always have had the top Level of rugby being the Provinces, the Clubs always feed into this top tier.

When the H-cup was formed we entered our top teams (the Provinces), its how rugby developed in Ireland, so why now would we enter our second teir (the clubs) because Hersh wants us to? If you don't want the top teir of Rugby in Ireland to take part maybe the top tier in England shouldn't take part either and Championship clubs are entered?

Is the H-cup for the top tier teams in Europe or not?

The 7th French team won the Amlin and they have a far superior HC record.

Biarritz somehow manage to do very well in the HC.

I do find it annoying that they are ranked so high in the seedings but to be fair they do keep getting to quarter finals at least or winning the Amln.

HERSH wrote:

But it should be a club competition.

It's farcical to expect little clubs to qualify and then have to beat these hybrid Regions/Provinces that walk into the HC because their Unions turned their backs on their fans and club systems.

It’s a joke, and it’s wrong.

It pains me to say it, but I agree.

The RABO sides are all in a league. That league has a points system and a mechanism to decide the league champions. The teams in that league therefore finish in a position based on merit.

There is no reason why, having taken this into consideration, the top 6 teams then qualify (legitimately) for the HC. If it so happens that because of this 1 Welsh Region, 1 Irish Province, 2 Scottish and Italian sides don't qualify. Tough.

Exeter's and Sale's pedigree can be questioned, but their place in the cup was assured when they qualified, on merit, for this year's comp.

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

In contrast Connacht faced by far the weakest side in the competition and an English side they have beaten before. Quins are of course a very good side but Connacht were licking their lips at the opportunity.

beshocked...you know yourself that that argument you present is absolute crud...I don't usually say it so clearly..but it really is rubbish - and the good thing is that you already know it - thankfully!. You're bluffing to sustain an argument that doesn't work.

Connacht have beaten Quins before and therefore they don't have to be good to beat a really good side again, just turn up and play on memories and nostalgia. Bunk.

Connacht aren't a good side. If they were they wouldn't lose so many matches.

The only arguments I have seen in Connacht's favour are that they are a good side because they can win 1 match vs Quins in 5 encounters. They can also defeat Zebre. This means they deserve their place because they can pick up two wins in 8 matches in the HC.

Wait I apologise the other argument is - Connacht deserve to be in the HC because Leinster have won the HC. That's why Connacht - a completely different side deserve to be in the HC.

what about


http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

Connacht are 27th
Sale Sharks 32nd

Or on ERC ranking points
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/ranking.php

Connacht 24th
Sale Sharks 25th

HERSH wrote:

But it should be a club competition.

It's farcical to expect little clubs to qualify and then have to beat these hybrid Regions/Provinces that walk into the HC because their Unions turned their backs on their fans and club systems.

It’s a joke, and it’s wrong.

Ok, whle you might feel that this is a joke what your logic is effectively saying is; it is a joke that your bank has a mortgage on your house, and should give it up.

Back in reality the European competitions exist because of a collective agreement between the member Unions and inspite of the existance of Premier Rugby and Ligue Nationale de Rugby.

Kingshu wrote:

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

In contrast Connacht faced by far the weakest side in the competition and an English side they have beaten before. Quins are of course a very good side but Connacht were licking their lips at the opportunity.

beshocked...you know yourself that that argument you present is absolute crud...I don't usually say it so clearly..but it really is rubbish - and the good thing is that you already know it - thankfully!. You're bluffing to sustain an argument that doesn't work.

Connacht have beaten Quins before and therefore they don't have to be good to beat a really good side again, just turn up and play on memories and nostalgia. Bunk.

Connacht aren't a good side. If they were they wouldn't lose so many matches.

The only arguments I have seen in Connacht's favour are that they are a good side because they can win 1 match vs Quins in 5 encounters. They can also defeat Zebre. This means they deserve their place because they can pick up two wins in 8 matches in the HC.

Wait I apologise the other argument is - Connacht deserve to be in the HC because Leinster have won the HC. That's why Connacht - a completely different side deserve to be in the HC.

what about


http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

Connacht are 27th
Sale Sharks 32nd

Or on ERC ranking points
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/ranking.php

Connacht 24th
Sale Sharks 25th

The ERC rankings mean so much don't they?

The unofficial rankings mean little too but strangely enough back up my point. 27th isn't very good.

Oh and I never said Sale were a particularly good side. They are in poor form and at the foot of the AP table. They qualified for the HC on their own merit though.

SecretFly wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You could have picked a better example than Connacht right now... they have one win and one loss (22 - 30 to the second placed side in AP).

Hardly evidence that they're not of the standard. They might get around to proving they're not up to standard later down the line but as yet, the evidence isn't there.

+1

The only teams that haven't been competitive so far are Edinburgh and Zebre, and Edinburgh can point to last season's semi-final as justification for inclusion.

Doesn't stop me wanting a reduction to 16 teams, though, with meriticratic qualification instead of national.

You only have to listen to Sky commentators, the English ones, to realise that 'national' allocation - and success - is very much a part of the the lure of HEC itself. Sorry, but I think national allocations are very important. It allows us all to have an input...as nations. The quality rises to the top when the competition starts, not when it is pre-planned, pre-judged and a red carpet thrown out for the 'cream' of Europe. It is not a best of Europe competition - it as a best in Europe contest. You work for your reputation when you're playing in it not before.

Besides 16 teams? 6 English, 6 French and only one candidate each from the other nations? So much for Meritocratic selection!

No, that would expand it back to 24 teams or more, what with Georgia, Spain, Romania, Russia, Portugal, Germany, Belgium, Lithuania, Liechtenstein, Monaco, etc all wanting a representative.

beshocked wrote:

Connacht aren't a good side. If they were they wouldn't lose so many matches.

Wait I apologise the other argument is - Connacht deserve to be in the HC because Leinster have won the HC. That's why Connacht - a completely different side deserve to be in the HC.

HEC decides Connacht's presence - not the IRFU, or Leinster or Munster or the Irish mafia. The HEC rules decide Connacht's presence - just like it decides on 6 English entries by right. Do all of us think England deserves 6 entries every single year? Nope, not by a long shot. But those are the rules.

Who would have been more deserving of the place Connacht now have? Another English side?

beshocked wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

In contrast Connacht faced by far the weakest side in the competition and an English side they have beaten before. Quins are of course a very good side but Connacht were licking their lips at the opportunity.

beshocked...you know yourself that that argument you present is absolute crud...I don't usually say it so clearly..but it really is rubbish - and the good thing is that you already know it - thankfully!. You're bluffing to sustain an argument that doesn't work.

Connacht have beaten Quins before and therefore they don't have to be good to beat a really good side again, just turn up and play on memories and nostalgia. Bunk.

Connacht aren't a good side. If they were they wouldn't lose so many matches.

The only arguments I have seen in Connacht's favour are that they are a good side because they can win 1 match vs Quins in 5 encounters. They can also defeat Zebre. This means they deserve their place because they can pick up two wins in 8 matches in the HC.

Wait I apologise the other argument is - Connacht deserve to be in the HC because Leinster have won the HC. That's why Connacht - a completely different side deserve to be in the HC.

what about


http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

Connacht are 27th
Sale Sharks 32nd

Or on ERC ranking points
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/ranking.php

Connacht 24th
Sale Sharks 25th

The ERC rankings mean so much don't they?

The unofficial rankings mean little too but strangely enough back up my point. 27th isn't very good.

Oh and I never said Sale were a particularly good side. They are in poor form and at the foot of the AP table. They qualified for the HC on their own merit though.

Yes they determine the seeding for the comps, Tier one teams teir 2 teams etc and can go a long way in making it an easier group to be in.
Being a tier one team is far more preferable to being teir 4. Connacht BTW are a tier3 team, and not even th eworst tier 3 team either, not bad for not being good enough to ranked above 7 other teams in it?

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You could have picked a better example than Connacht right now... they have one win and one loss (22 - 30 to the second placed side in AP).

Hardly evidence that they're not of the standard. They might get around to proving they're not up to standard later down the line but as yet, the evidence isn't there.

+1

The only teams that haven't been competitive so far are Edinburgh and Zebre, and Edinburgh can point to last season's semi-final as justification for inclusion.

Doesn't stop me wanting a reduction to 16 teams, though, with meriticratic qualification instead of national.

You only have to listen to Sky commentators, the English ones, to realise that 'national' allocation - and success - is very much a part of the the lure of HEC itself. Sorry, but I think national allocations are very important. It allows us all to have an input...as nations. The quality rises to the top when the competition starts, not when it is pre-planned, pre-judged and a red carpet thrown out for the 'cream' of Europe. It is not a best of Europe competition - it as a best in Europe contest. You work for your reputation when you're playing in it not before.

Besides 16 teams? 6 English, 6 French and only one candidate each from the other nations? So much for Meritocratic selection!

No, that would expand it back to 24 teams or more, what with Georgia, Spain, Romania, Russia, Portugal, Germany, Belgium, Lithuania, Liechtenstein, Monaco, etc all wanting a representative.

Why not, if we're going to be forced to include Scottish teams, we might as well sign up some opposition they could actually beat.

Perhaps Gloucester who did the double over Connacht in the HC last season and won 3 games in the HC including a win over Toulouse?

Anyway I wouldn't have had another.

Secretfly I have always called for 6 English sides, 6 French, 8 Pro12.

Edinburgh,Connacht,Zebre would have joined Dragons in the Amlin. Not a bad call is it going from current results?

I liked that one Jimpy

Kingshu wrote:

HERSH wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

HERSH wrote:It does make a mockery of the HC as those teams with two defeats are pretty much out of it already and may field weakened teams to rest players due to the long season.

The only thing thats making a mockery of the HC is fans like you, who dont appreciate how good a competition it is.

But it's not a great competition, it could be if it was a level playing field in terms of qualifying for it, plus it should be a club competition only like the Football European cup.

Take it this is a dig at provinces being in it, as I undersatnd it the H-cup is for the top Domestic teams in Europe. In Ireland we have and always have had the top Level of rugby being the Provinces, the Clubs always feed into this top tier.

When the H-cup was formed we entered our top teams (the Provinces), its how rugby developed in Ireland, so why now would we enter our second teir (the clubs) because Hersh wants us to? If you don't want the top teir of Rugby in Ireland to take part maybe the top tier in England shouldn't take part either and Championship clubs are entered?

Is the H-cup for the top tier teams in Europe or not?

I thought the Irish second tier is the Provincial A teams? I'm sure I read that on another thread recently.

beshocked wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

In contrast Connacht faced by far the weakest side in the competition and an English side they have beaten before. Quins are of course a very good side but Connacht were licking their lips at the opportunity.

beshocked...you know yourself that that argument you present is absolute crud...I don't usually say it so clearly..but it really is rubbish - and the good thing is that you already know it - thankfully!. You're bluffing to sustain an argument that doesn't work.

Connacht have beaten Quins before and therefore they don't have to be good to beat a really good side again, just turn up and play on memories and nostalgia. Bunk.

Connacht aren't a good side. If they were they wouldn't lose so many matches.

The only arguments I have seen in Connacht's favour are that they are a good side because they can win 1 match vs Quins in 5 encounters. They can also defeat Zebre. This means they deserve their place because they can pick up two wins in 8 matches in the HC.

Wait I apologise the other argument is - Connacht deserve to be in the HC because Leinster have won the HC. That's why Connacht - a completely different side deserve to be in the HC.

what about


http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

Connacht are 27th
Sale Sharks 32nd

Or on ERC ranking points
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/ranking.php

Connacht 24th
Sale Sharks 25th

The ERC rankings mean so much don't they?

The unofficial rankings mean little too but strangely enough back up my point. 27th isn't very good.

Oh and I never said Sale were a particularly good side. They are in poor form and at the foot of the AP table. They qualified for the HC on their own merit though.

Connacht are the 4th best team in Ireland,why does the 6th best team in England get in.

Who is 'we'? I'll laugh along when I find out.

Kingshu wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

In contrast Connacht faced by far the weakest side in the competition and an English side they have beaten before. Quins are of course a very good side but Connacht were licking their lips at the opportunity.

beshocked...you know yourself that that argument you present is absolute crud...I don't usually say it so clearly..but it really is rubbish - and the good thing is that you already know it - thankfully!. You're bluffing to sustain an argument that doesn't work.

Connacht have beaten Quins before and therefore they don't have to be good to beat a really good side again, just turn up and play on memories and nostalgia. Bunk.

Connacht aren't a good side. If they were they wouldn't lose so many matches.

The only arguments I have seen in Connacht's favour are that they are a good side because they can win 1 match vs Quins in 5 encounters. They can also defeat Zebre. This means they deserve their place because they can pick up two wins in 8 matches in the HC.

Wait I apologise the other argument is - Connacht deserve to be in the HC because Leinster have won the HC. That's why Connacht - a completely different side deserve to be in the HC.

what about


http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

Connacht are 27th
Sale Sharks 32nd

Or on ERC ranking points
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/ranking.php

Connacht 24th
Sale Sharks 25th

The ERC rankings mean so much don't they?

The unofficial rankings mean little too but strangely enough back up my point. 27th isn't very good.

Oh and I never said Sale were a particularly good side. They are in poor form and at the foot of the AP table. They qualified for the HC on their own merit though.

Yes they determine the seeding for the comps, Tier one teams teir 2 teams etc and can go a long way in making it an easier group to be in.
Being a tier one team is far more preferable to being teir 4. Connacht BTW are a tier3 team, and not even th eworst tier 3 team either, not bad for not being good enough to ranked above 7 other teams in it?

Yup the tier system is great. Really accurate.

Just in pool 1 round 1 the tier 1 side lost to the tier 4 side and the tier 2 side got royally humped by the tier 3 side at home. Really great system.

Tier 1 sides like Biarritz and Cardiff getting beaten too.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

beshocked wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

beshocked wrote:

In contrast Connacht faced by far the weakest side in the competition and an English side they have beaten before. Quins are of course a very good side but Connacht were licking their lips at the opportunity.

beshocked...you know yourself that that argument you present is absolute crud...I don't usually say it so clearly..but it really is rubbish - and the good thing is that you already know it - thankfully!. You're bluffing to sustain an argument that doesn't work.

Connacht have beaten Quins before and therefore they don't have to be good to beat a really good side again, just turn up and play on memories and nostalgia. Bunk.

Connacht aren't a good side. If they were they wouldn't lose so many matches.

The only arguments I have seen in Connacht's favour are that they are a good side because they can win 1 match vs Quins in 5 encounters. They can also defeat Zebre. This means they deserve their place because they can pick up two wins in 8 matches in the HC.

Wait I apologise the other argument is - Connacht deserve to be in the HC because Leinster have won the HC. That's why Connacht - a completely different side deserve to be in the HC.

what about


http://www.eurorugby.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Rugger&file=latest

Connacht are 27th
Sale Sharks 32nd

Or on ERC ranking points
http://www.ercrugby.com/eng/ranking.php

Connacht 24th
Sale Sharks 25th

The ERC rankings mean so much don't they?

The unofficial rankings mean little too but strangely enough back up my point. 27th isn't very good.

Oh and I never said Sale were a particularly good side. They are in poor form and at the foot of the AP table. They qualified for the HC on their own merit though.

Connacht are the 4th best team in Ireland,why does the 6th best team in England get in.

Don't you mean the worst side in Ireland?

The 7th best English side last season in the HC made Connacht look foolish but of course Gloucester doing the double is glossed over.

Yep a tier 4 side beat a tier 1 side, thats what makes sport great, don't you think?

Or it just tells you how messed up the ERC rankings are.

The most important thing when the pools are made is to avoid Clermont and Leinster anyway.

beshocked wrote:Perhaps Gloucester who did the double over Connacht in the HC last season and won 3 games in the HC including a win over Toulouse?

Anyway I wouldn't have had another.

Secretfly I have always called for 6 English sides, 6 French, 8 Pro12.

Edinburgh,Connacht,Zebre would have joined Dragons in the Amlin. Not a bad call is it going from current results?

So yes, your preference would have been for an English side to take the place of Connacht - even though that would be 7 places for English sides and still only six places for French sides who have more games in their league and more sides (more rights to have an extra placing). Again, you'd settle for varying degrees of fairness until the 'fairness' is the kind you personally like

You'll repeat that your preference has always been that no league or nation would benefit from the exploits of the winning side. I'll say that such may indeed be your argument but there is no way I'll believe you would be engaged in such an animated debate had an English side won last years HEC and another English side was now competing in it because of that victory. There is no way beshocked would have been moaning today - 22nd October 2012 - about any of it.

beshocked wrote:Perhaps Gloucester who did the double over Connacht in the HC last season and won 3 games in the HC including a win over Toulouse?

Anyway I wouldn't have had another.

Secretfly I have always called for 6 English sides, 6 French, 8 Pro12.

Edinburgh,Connacht,Zebre would have joined Dragons in the Amlin. Not a bad call is it going from current results?

Connacht finished 8th in the Pro12 last year. So they'd be in on merit this year if we used that criteria.

beshocked wrote:
Connacht are the 4th best team in Ireland,why does the 6th best team in England get in.

Don't you mean the worst side in Ireland?

The 7th best English side last season in the HC made Connacht look foolish but of course Gloucester doing the double is glossed over.[/quote]

Beating them twice in 2 pretty close games counts as making them look foolish.

using your argument the worst side in Scotland made London Irish look foolish so they obviously didn't deserve to qualify and England should lose their 6th spot.

Secretfly you didn't read on did you? I said my preferable scenario is 6 English,6 French, 8 Pro12.

Not many English sides have as poor a record in Europe as Connacht to be fair.

You could argue Sale don't deserve a place but that's another argument.

It's all hypothetical. On the way things currently are Connacht don't deserve to be in the HC IMO. As I have said numerous times what have they achieved? Very little is the answer. Yes I know Leinster have won the HC but that's Leinster's achievement.

You might say Connacht have got to a semi in the Amlin. True - it sounds like a competition which would suit them much better.

Can you really argue with a 25% win rate in the HC?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

beshocked wrote:
Connacht are the 4th best team in Ireland,why does the 6th best team in England get in.

Don't you mean the worst side in Ireland?

The 7th best English side last season in the HC made Connacht look foolish but of course Gloucester doing the double is glossed over.

Beating them twice in 2 pretty close games counts as making them look foolish.

using your argument the worst side in Scotland made London Irish look foolish so they obviously didn't deserve to qualify and England should lose their 6th spot.[/quote]

2 close losses is still two losses.

I thought the worst side in Scotland as you call them got destroyed by a side ranked 7 places below them in the ERC rankings. These ERC rankings of course are gospel.

I don't know what Edinburgh has to do with Connacht. Edinburgh got to a semi final last season in the HC. 6/8 Connacht came bottom of their pool with 1 win out of 6.

beshocked wrote:Secretfly you didn't read on did you? I said my preferable scenario is 6 English,6 French, 8 Pro12.

I did read on beshocked and I included my opinion on that part of your comment in my second paragraph. I said you'll say what you've repeated above but that doesn't mean you'd be here today complaining about an extra English entry in HEC if it had transpired that way.

You're not so against the idea so much that you'd be arguing here today against that extra English side had it happened.