Why pick a captain before a series?

I am a little bit confused as to why a captain is picked well before a series starts?

1 - Let's go back to the South African Lions tour.... POC wasn't playing his best, yet he had to be picked to play.

2 - Wales tour of Australia - Warburton picked when he clearly hasn't recovered from injury, plays crap, then get's picked again ahead of the in-form 7 in Wales Tuperic.

3 - Autumn internationals - Warburton picked as captain again, and again is not in any sort of form, and again Tuperic playing better .

What I would like to know is why make such an important call before such important games - give the players the challege to be captain on the day - earn your captaincy, not just be automatically picked, leaving out better players.

I know we are very unfortunate to have Howley as coach , so I think Wales will be lucky to get a win this Autumn.

I'm sure everyone has many examples of their own nations stupidity.

Any ideas?

Best reasons I can think of:

-the captain is (depending on the overall team structure) part of management of the team off-field and sole management on field and the key comms link between management and the players.

-the captain wil have direct or indirect input into selection of the squad and can influence the gameplan and therefore the players with the right skills.

-He'll be the person closest to the 'ground' or playing level within the management team in terms of players, opposition, grounds etc- anything that might require knowledge from a strategic level.

Don't really think its stupid at all, unless theres no chance of that player taking the field.

Huwball wrote:
1 - Let's go back to the South African Lions tour.... POC wasn't playing his best, yet he had to be picked to play.

POC was fine once he didn't have to cover for others (Phil Vickery, Alun-Wyn Jones & Croft were the wrong selections for the first test ). You do realise that SA lineout was the best facit of their game and they were up against quality operators. Victor Matfield has said that Paul O'Connell was the most difficult opponent he has come up against.

Nothing wrong with AW Jones as a player - he is too alike POC. Shaw complimented POC's attributes.

Lions Captains were often a Political appointment not always the best player his diplomatic skills off field were often important.Some pick themselves McCaw for instance why would you not conrntinue to use him unless he is keeping a better player out.

Why pick a captain before a series....so that Sam Warburton can be justified at 7

I understand the management side of things, but come gametime, if they aren't good enough, they shouldn't be picked. I thought POC was way off his normal standards in SA and warburton has been pretty dire the last few games he's played in (Cardiff & Wales).

I understand the figurehead but let them have a different title so it doesn't give them an automatic shoe-in.

McCaw obviously has picked himself over the years, but there will be 7's in New Zealand that are at his heals. If he was playing crap would GH have picked him at the expense of losing a test? Probably not. He would have been "injured in training" or something similar.

It might be just Gatland & co doing it for us welsh?

I honestly think that Howley (and possibly Gatland too) have this idea that Wales have done well recently because Warburton's been captain. For me, it's no more than a coincidence. Let's not forget that he wouldn't have been captain at all had Matthew Rees not got injured. This belief saw Warburton play (as captain) against Australia in the summer when he'd barely played for months and the world and his wife could see he wasn't at his best. The fact that he's named as squad captain again disappoints me because it confirms that he's guaranteed to start again.

My view is that if he's not the best available player in his position - and he isn't - then he shouldn't start; but the bigger concern is that because he's been named captain and is clearly Mr Howley's blue-eyed boy, they'll shoehorn him into the backrow at blindside even if they start with Tipuric at openside.

Luckless, indeed - warburton on current form shouldn't be anywhere near a red shirt.

He seems to be heading towards sir johnny's injury lay off sagas

Sin é wrote:

Huwball wrote:
1 - Let's go back to the South African Lions tour.... POC wasn't playing his best, yet he had to be picked to play.

POC was fine once he didn't have to cover for others (Phil Vickery, Alun-Wyn Jones & Croft were the wrong selections for the first test ). You do realise that SA lineout was the best facit of their game and they were up against quality operators. Victor Matfield has said that Paul O'Connell was the most difficult opponent he has come up against.

Nothing wrong with AW Jones as a player - he is too alike POC. Shaw complimented POC's attributes.

Yep we would have had a much better chance without the 2 tries Croft scored >.<

1st try: POC steals a SA lineout, and Roberts & BOD do the rest. As Barnes says in the commentary, "Croft saunters in" having got a great offload from BOD. No mention about the great steal by POC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P10BCda_DN8

2nd try: can find a video but here is a description.

edit: found it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kA7rAnIBtc

Lions line-out 5 metres out. The Lions go quickly and are under the poles and O'Driscoll is superbly shackled by Bekker. A series of drives now.
67 Still Lions ball and Roberts nearly crashes through on the left and does well to recycle. Quick ball now and O'Driscoll draws his man and puts Croft over. Jones converts.

Croft is a show pony.

Sin é wrote:1st try: POC steals a SA lineout, and Roberts & BOD do the rest. As Barnes says in the commentary, "Croft saunters in" having got a great offload from BOD. No mention about the great steal by POC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P10BCda_DN8

2nd try: can find a video but here is a description.

edit: found it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kA7rAnIBtc

Lions line-out 5 metres out. The Lions go quickly and are under the poles and O'Driscoll is superbly shackled by Bekker. A series of drives now.
67 Still Lions ball and Roberts nearly crashes through on the left and does well to recycle. Quick ball now and O'Driscoll draws his man and puts Croft over. Jones converts.

Croft is a show pony.

Bit harsh. He's definitely not a show pony.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Sin é wrote:1st try: POC steals a SA lineout, and Roberts & BOD do the rest. As Barnes says in the commentary, "Croft saunters in" having got a great offload from BOD. No mention about the great steal by POC.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P10BCda_DN8

2nd try: can find a video but here is a description.

edit: found it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kA7rAnIBtc

Lions line-out 5 metres out. The Lions go quickly and are under the poles and O'Driscoll is superbly shackled by Bekker. A series of drives now.
67 Still Lions ball and Roberts nearly crashes through on the left and does well to recycle. Quick ball now and O'Driscoll draws his man and puts Croft over. Jones converts.

Croft is a show pony.

Bit harsh. He's definitely not a show pony.

BOD & Roberts were doing what he should have been doing - making space for the backs.

Maybe that's the case from the Lions tour, I really can't remember and it's been a long time since I've watched the games. But he's not a show pony now, even if he was then.

He proved in the Six Nations that he can do the dirty work to a very high level, but still tear a defence apart with his speed.

I think this year that Stewart Lancster has got it right by not naming his Captain untill november. This way it sends out a signal that, If you want to be captain prove that you are good enough to be captain.

If any one can remeber i think it was when Andy Robinson took over from SCW as England head coach, that he named Johnny Wilkinson englands captain. Only for Wilkison to be constantly injured.

What i am saying is the naming of the Captain should not be done untill the tournamnet is about to kick off. Just incase their are better players than the one name as Captain.

Hmm I know that trys scored always twists ratings but going back over what I could find in terms of player ratings for that test and for some reason Croft scores highest in the forwards. But then having the misfortune not to be Irish I am sure he'll never match up in the eyes of some

Ha, Ha - I suppose you are looking at the British media ratings !

A typical comment for Croft:

Tom Croft: Scored two tries and one of the more noticeable Lions. Conceded silly penalty charging at du Preez but grew in stature. 8

Meanwhile while tom was tearing around scoring trys, the other two lads in the backrow were being castigated.

Mind you life improved for them the following week (Gatland must have given him a bollocking)

Tom Croft: Not as conspicuous as first Test but still keen to mix it with the big boys. Has had a good tour. 6

and David Wallace got a:

David Wallace: Much better. Made a nuisance of himself at the breakdown and outplayed Burger. 7

Joe Worsely was preferred in the 3rd test. Croft got about 10 minutes when the game was well won.
-------

The British media not impresed with AW Jones.

Alun-Wyn Jones: Put in a big hit on du Preez first half but on the back foot otherwise. Like Monye, was slightly intimidated by the occasion. 5
Paul O’Connell: Tried to get referee onside regarding difficulties in scrum. Was Lions main lineout option and did not stop trying. Reputation still intact. 7

2nd test:

Simon Shaw: Fabulous match. Annoyed Botha, smashed rucks and carried ball into heart of Bok defence. At 35, he even kept going to the end. 8
Paul O’Connell: Didn’t carry ball that well but prominent in early lineouts and forced turnovers late on. Leadership much improved too. 7

3rd Test:

Simon Shaw: Was binned for a clumsy challenge on Fourie du Preez but again in thick of action. Couldn’t hit heights of second Test. 6

Paul O’Connell: Great leadership and astonishing commitment. Has never lost the faith of his players. If only he carried better. 8

Despite all the criticism of POC, the British press player ratings were pretty consistent.

Don't really understand your arguement there Sin e.

Not starting anything, but just think it's unfair to say that Croft was a show pony, especially considering he wasn't originally selected.

I still think that the player of the tour was David Wallace- he was excellent, and played every test, as your last quote pay testament to.

Besides, why you have to debunk a player that performed really well over the entire tour I just don't know.

He scored two good tries, and showed up well in the loose.

If I remember right by his own admission Croft was pretty much shot by the last test. The first test was his best performance, and has been pointed out he wasnt originally picked but did come through the tour as one of the better performers.

Seeing him being lifted in the lineout by AWJ was interesting too

bluestonevedder wrote:Don't really understand your arguement there Sin e.

Not starting anything, but just think it's unfair to say that Croft was a show pony, especially considering he wasn't originally selected.

I still think that the player of the tour was David Wallace- he was excellent, and played every test, as your last quote pay testament to.

The British press were not happy when he wasn't originally selected (Sky went on a crucsade to get Alan Quinlan a long ban by repeatedly showing his gouging incident in slow motion so that the IRB had no option but to give him a long ban).

Its an awful pity that Ferris got injured on the tour - a backrow of Ferris, Wallace & Heislip would have been phenomenal. Croft might be great against Australia, but you need a bit of muscle against SA. The only memorable thing about Croft is his 2 walk-in tries, made for him by a back.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch those backs were getting beaten up by the SA backrow.

bluestonevedder wrote:Besides, why you have to debunk a player that performed really well over the entire tour I just don't know.

He scored two good tries, and showed up well in the loose.

My point is that he didn't compliment those around him. Joe Worsely comments (he started the 3rd test).

Joe Worsley: Put in big hit on Smit when Boks threatened early in match and also dumped Olivier on his backside. 7

Geech lost a flanker when BOD got injured in the 2nd test, so had to bring in Worsley for the 3rd.

Yup, Croft's biggest sin is that he isn't Ferris - nothing else matters does it.

Croft was awesome in 09...with Jones and Shaw easily the most influential forwards.

mowgli wrote:Croft was awesome in 09...with Jones and Shaw easily the most influential forwards.

Yea, an awesome winger. runs some great lines.

Alun-Wyn Jones: Put in a big hit on du Preez first half but on the back foot otherwise. Like Monye, was slightly intimidated by the occasion. 5

Surprising comment about AW Jones being intimidated by the occasion considering that he had already captained Wales.

Sin é wrote:

mowgli wrote:Croft was awesome in 09...with Jones and Shaw easily the most influential forwards.

Yea, an awesome winger. runs some great lines.

ah so this is a fattist argument...you think he shoudl be more beefy like Sexy Steve...your secret's safe sin e and here is something to get the old gussett tingling just for you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LntmtseiaA

I prefer this vid mowgli.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55xPjGFWv9o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoPhM3nqvIM

this is his best work though.....

Typical Welsh - always cheating.

Thanks for reminding me of Davies patting Ferris on the head. One of many reasons to not let him near the Lions.

I'm going to surprise myself and agree with maj

If that is Lancaster's approach, I commend him.

Let the captaincy be earned through hard work and make it available to whoever can put their hands up for it.

The problem Wales have got is a pleb from Cardiff who threw the series in Oz by picking undercooked players

Ah well, it's only a game eh?

Sin é wrote:Typical Welsh - always cheating.

Thanks for reminding me of Davies patting Ferris on the head. One of many reasons to not let him near the Lions.

Not that it'll make much of a difference to you, but it was Ian Evans, not Bradley Davies.

bluestonevedder wrote:Don't really understand your arguement there Sin e.

Well I suppose amongst the other gumph, Sin has made a very good point...namely that it is an urban myth that O'Connell didn't play well on the Lions tour. Without doubt he was outshone by the awesome Simon Shaw over the course of the test series (As Johnson was by Davidson in 1997) but he still had a good tour as a player and by all accounts was an excellent captain.

Regarding Sins other comments... on your own buddie.... ....