H-cup a realistic solution, accepable to you?

First topic message reminder :

Was just wondering what peoples though are on a genuine attemp to make a solution to the H-cup qualification that would keep all Unions happy. In the negotiations some want qualification solely league based and others want it to remain Union based, and hence I think we will see a mixture of both methods.

Reduce to 20 teams as French and English seam to wish.
Qualification is 5,5,8
Then award the top two performing leagues, using a co-efficient based on European performance, an extra place each? (if Pro 12 is one of top 2 leagues, then it is highest non qualified team, not going to any Union).

So England and France could have 5-6 teams and pro 12 Unions 8-9 teams, depending on who have the top two performaing leagues.

This reduces the English and French represention by 1 team each and Pro 12 Unions by 2. But 2 of the 3 leagues can claim an extra place back.

Pro 12 qualification is divided
IRFU 2 teams
WRU 2 teams
SRU 1 team
FIR 1 team
Next 2 (3, if Pro 12 is one of top 2 leagues) highest non qualified team, regardless of Union.

I'd add the provision that if the winner of the Almin is not from one of the 6 Nation countries that only the top performing League gains and extra entry spot.

Reduces H-cup to 20 teams as English and French desire.

Qualification partially Union based, should IRFU, WRU, FIR, SRU satisified
Qualification also partially league based should satisfy French and English

In reducing the number of teams cuts are not all potentionally from Pro 12, however France and England will keep their 6 teams as long as thier teams preform better in Europe than Pro 12 teams (using a co-efficient to access each leagues teams performaces in Europe). 2 Strongest Leauges rewarded.

Kingshu wrote:Reduces H-cup to 20 teams as English and French desire.

Qualification partially Union based, should IRFU, WRU, FIR, SRU satisified
Qualification also partially league based should satisfy French and English

In reducing the number of teams cuts are not all potentionally from Pro 12, however France and England will keep their 6 teams as long as thier teams preform better in Europe than Pro 12 teams (using a co-efficient to access each leagues teams performaces in Europe). 2 Strongest Leauges rewarded.

But surely going 6 - 6 - 6 with the last 2 spots allocated on some performance criteria achieves this also?

Toadfish wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Reduces H-cup to 20 teams as English and French desire.

Qualification partially Union based, should IRFU, WRU, FIR, SRU satisified
Qualification also partially league based should satisfy French and English

In reducing the number of teams cuts are not all potentionally from Pro 12, however France and England will keep their 6 teams as long as thier teams preform better in Europe than Pro 12 teams (using a co-efficient to access each leagues teams performaces in Europe). 2 Strongest Leauges rewarded.

But surely going 6 - 6 - 6 with the last 2 spots allocated on some performance criteria achieves this also?

No as 6-6-6 does not give Unions a place and therefore would be rejected by IRFU, SRU, FIR and WRU

Biltong wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:The HEC has to do three things in my opinion.

1. Be the toughest competition possible with the best teams in Europe

2. Be run by the Unions in a way that encourages the improvement of rugby in all nations concerned as well as protecting their right to exist at the table.

3. The competition has to be on a level footing for all teams, there needs to be a measure of equal opportunity to profit financially and to garner results for all included..

So what is the solution?

20 teams

6 French, 5 English, 3 Irish, 2 welsh, 1 Italian, 1 Scot, previous winner and Amlin winner

Competition finished by April, pools completed In December, quarters, semis and final back to back weekends in April.

Profits made by ERC are shared per percentage of entrants of each nation each year, more teams, more money, profits are given to each nations union to be distributed as they wish in their country

Number of teams entered to be reevaluated, (to keep the best of Europe playing in the comp), every year. With each nation guaranteed at least one entrant.

Teams excluded from HEC go into Amlin run on the same format

Those dropping out of the Amlin go down to a third tier comp run on the same format

It has often been questioned as to why should ENG/FRA have so many clubs in?On most proposals WAL/IRE are assured at least 2 teams to SCT/ITA's 1.So why should IRE/WAL be assured twice SCT/ITA?

Sure it does, 2 Irish, 2 Welsh, 1 Scottish and 1 Italian?

Can I ask where you think this bargaining power is coming from? I know it's an emotive subject but from what I can see the French and English are aligned and are prepared to live without a European competition. From what I have seen of the numbers they also feel they wouldn't really be financially impacted either. They have served notice on the old agreement and so basically any past practices can be torn up, we're looking at a new world. From the estimates I've seen the French and English involvement brings around 80% of the funding to the table. I've limited knowledge but again from what I have read the ERC money is crucial to the Rabo nations annual budgets.

So from this I can only surmise that it is in the Rabo nations best interests to get a deal that the French and the English are happy with? So again where do you feel their bargaining power will come from?

Maest
Why should Irish get 75% of their top teams in while the rest are 50% or less?
No dropping from HC to Amlin.If you want to keepnumber of games the same How about HC/Amlin Plate & Bowl comp,similar to 7's?
Kingshu
With 6 teams from Rabo you could have 1 From each nation then next best 2 from league.

How about 5 Eng,5 French & 6 Rabo? 4 pools of 4,top your pool have home quater,2nd in pool away Quater.HC/Amlin winner to come out of league allocation

broadlandboy wrote:Maest
Why should Irish get 75% of their top teams in while the rest are 50% or less?
No dropping from HC to Amlin.If you want to keepnumber of games the same How about HC/Amlin Plate & Bowl comp,similar to 7's?
Kingshu
With 6 teams from Rabo you could have 1 From each nation then next best 2 from league.

Simple, Ireland have three of the best teams in Europe. If we want the best competition then we want their three best, I think all did well last year, semi finalists and finalists from what I remember, plus they are doing equally well this year in Europe and in the league.

As I said, the quantity of entrants should be re-evaluated annually, to keep the best teams in the comp.

So why not League qualification? Then you would have the best as per my previous proposal ,with no need to keep looking each year as this would only cause reaccurring arguements as to who should qualify

broadlandboy wrote:Maest
Why should Irish get 75% of their top teams in while the rest are 50% or less?
No dropping from HC to Amlin.If you want to keepnumber of games the same How about HC/Amlin Plate & Bowl comp,similar to 7's?
Kingshu
With 6 teams from Rabo you could have 1 From each nation then next best 2 from league.

This bit has been answered mutiple times, if England want 75% of thier top flight teams to enter as well, all they have to do is reduce Prem to 8 teams. If they want to have more topflight teams thats thier choice, if they reduced prem to 6 teams they would even have 100% entry.

Kingshu wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Maest
Why should Irish get 75% of their top teams in while the rest are 50% or less?
No dropping from HC to Amlin.If you want to keepnumber of games the same How about HC/Amlin Plate & Bowl comp,similar to 7's?
Kingshu
With 6 teams from Rabo you could have 1 From each nation then next best 2 from league.

This bit has been answered mutiple times, if England want 75% of thier top flight teams to enter as well, all they have to do is reduce Prem to 8 teams. If they want to have more topflight teams thats thier choice, if they reduced prem to 6 teams they would even have 100% entry.

Don't be ridiculous.

Theres no need to Discus money yet, we can save that for another thread, just Qualification at present please

and there no pint say top 6 from Pro 12, and the FIR, IRFU, WRU and SRU 2/3 of the ERC would not agree to it.

Toadfish wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Maest
Why should Irish get 75% of their top teams in while the rest are 50% or less?
No dropping from HC to Amlin.If you want to keepnumber of games the same How about HC/Amlin Plate & Bowl comp,similar to 7's?
Kingshu
With 6 teams from Rabo you could have 1 From each nation then next best 2 from league.

This bit has been answered mutiple times, if England want 75% of thier top flight teams to enter as well, all they have to do is reduce Prem to 8 teams. If they want to have more topflight teams thats thier choice, if they reduced prem to 6 teams they would even have 100% entry.

Don't be ridiculous.

Why is it so ridiculous, it what Wales did, reduced from a 9 teams they had in the Celtic Leauge to 5, changing the number of team in the h-cup from 55% to 100%, Qualification and since changed to now 75%

England are free to follow suit if they desire, if they don't want to then they can't complain because someone else did.

Kingshu wrote:

Toadfish wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Maest
Why should Irish get 75% of their top teams in while the rest are 50% or less?
No dropping from HC to Amlin.If you want to keepnumber of games the same How about HC/Amlin Plate & Bowl comp,similar to 7's?
Kingshu
With 6 teams from Rabo you could have 1 From each nation then next best 2 from league.

This bit has been answered mutiple times, if England want 75% of thier top flight teams to enter as well, all they have to do is reduce Prem to 8 teams. If they want to have more topflight teams thats thier choice, if they reduced prem to 6 teams they would even have 100% entry.

Don't be ridiculous.

Why is it so ridiculous, it what Wales did, reduced from a 9 teams they had in the Celtic Leauge to 5, changing the number of team in the h-cup from 55% to 100%, Qualification and since changed to now 75%

England are free to follow suit if they desire, if they don't want to then they can't complain because someone else did.

Ok 3 reasons:

1) About 80% of Aviva's clubs income comes from the league. Why would they do anything to risk this?

2) England has the player base to support this number of top flight clubs. By all accounts Wales didn't.

3) Going by your method and trying to make all things equal Scotland has 100% participation so we should all get the same. Thus every country should reduce to just 2 teams.

Kingshu
If the English reduce numbers in their top tier it would finish a just about viable league with not enough money to support the clubs.This is one reason that I dont want a european league as the Rabo has shown us there is very little traveling support
Look what that has done for them
People moan about the number of non qualified in ENG/FRA leagues but think how many come from countries that have no pro leagues.IMVHO these 2 leagues have done more for world rugby than the IRB

Not saying that at all, just saying that Wales could enter 3 teams, they reduced the number of top flight teams in thier country to make better teams, and you then want to reduce the number of teams they can enter, because of it?

Like I said Engalnd are free to do the same, and can't cry foul we want you to lose places because you have.

If Italy left the Pro 12 and expanded the super 10 to 24 teams, would you agree that they should be allowed to enter 12 teams in H-cup as thier league is twice as large as the Prem?

broadlandboy wrote:So why not League qualification? Then you would have the best as per my previous proposal ,with no need to keep looking each year as this would only cause reaccurring arguements as to who should qualify

because excluding Scotland or italy as a nation would be massively detrimental to rugby in those countries. We want to look to building a future for rugby as well as having a great competition.

Kingshu
Silly arguement as we know that it is not going to happen in the short term.
Maest
Wouldnt it be better that they were competitve in a 2nd tier with a chance of winning rather than whipping boys in the top if it didnt hit them too hard finacially.Keep improving & qualify by right

Kingshu wrote:Not saying that at all, just saying that Wales could enter 3 teams, they reduced the number of top flight teams in thier country to make better teams, and you then want to reduce the number of teams they can enter, because of it?

Like I said Engalnd are free to do the same, and can't cry foul we want you to lose places because you have.

If Italy left the Pro 12 and expanded the super 10 to 24 teams, would you agree that they should be allowed to enter 12 teams in H-cup as thier league is twice as large as the Prem?

In this happened in the future and similar negotiations began to happen I'm sure it would be brought to the table and discussed. It would be up to Italy to make a case for themselves.

As with this arguement every time the point is being missed that this is a European competition not a private competition for the PRL or the leagues. They are invited to play in by the unions. They should feel free to set up their own competition which is what they are trying to do. The French as indicated are only going along for the ride as they dont expect things to change. They will make some noises but they wont go fully against the FFR.

Ensuring that the Scots and Italians are included is a must in the top tier. If it is an arguement about being competitive what are Exeter , Sale(or even Leicester) doing in the competition given the French steamrolled them on two occassions in recent weeks.

So the plan is to have even more poor quality French and English clubs?

DOD
So the Rabo winners are out as well then
and no it is not about more Eng/Fra teams.
At least they qualfied rather than given a free ride

Thats why I belive the above makes sense.

Each union gets a place keeping Unions happy, certain amont is League based keeping English and French happy.

English and French don't lose places unless they league becomes weaker than Pro 12

DOD
They will set up another comp if an agreement isnt reached.Unfortunatley due to IRB regs only Unions can set up Comps

The whole point of a cup is that it's competed in by everyone, and everyone can have an aspiration to win it (no matter how long the odds). That's why all 6 nations should be included. All of the nations involved can then send at least someone to represent them and their rugby.

If you want to change this to a European League, rather than a cup, then yes the discussion could be had about which nations to include in it, based on money, crowds, TV, etc. But as a cup it should involve all unions, IMO. The FA cup doesn't discriminate against the lower leagues who bring less to the table in terms of crowds, TV appeal, etc. Nor does the European Football cup which includes representation from all of the European nations, with at least 1 team from the lower ranked nations. This should be no different for rugby in my opinion.

Griff
In the FA Cup there are several rounds before the top two leagues get involved.Also it is a straight knock out with no pools
So why should it be limited to only the 6 Nations? What about the rest of Europe?You do want to grow the game don't you?

broadlandboy wrote:Griff
In the FA Cup there are several rounds before the top two leagues get involved.
So why should it be limited to only the 6 Nations? What about the rest of Europe?You do want to grow the game don't you?

They are included in the AMLIN cup. The teams in the HC are from the Tier1 unions (6 nations) as it should be. Whats your point

Looks like the pool games before Xmas and final before April are now going to be a given which will probably have bigger impact on the competition than any qualifying criteria, which is basically about money. The R12 / ERC are playing a dangerous game of trying to divide and conquer the English and French reps, as both don't ultimately now need HC money having concentrated on developing their domestic leagues over the last decade. Interesting times.

DOD Griff said that everyone enters I just pointed out that not from the start.The nearest comparison I can see is the UEFA Champions League

Recwatcher wrote:Looks like the pool games before Xmas and final before April are now going to be a given which will probably have bigger impact on the competition than any qualifying criteria, which is basically about money. The R12 / ERC are playing a dangerous game of trying to divide and conquer the English and French reps, as both don't ultimately now need HC money having concentrated on developing their domestic leagues over the last decade. Interesting times.

You think the English clubs dont need HC money? Interesting times indeed....

They would get just as much from a French/English comp as from the HC.IIRC Tigers used to lose money unless they got a home Quaterfinal

Initially maybe but the interest wouldnt be there from the public. It would become a non event I would say and the French know that (as do the English). The boredom factor and lack of variation would kill it and eventually one league would probably become the more dominant.

broadlandboy wrote:Griff
In the FA Cup there are several rounds before the top two leagues get involved.Also it is a straight knock out with no pools
So why should it be limited to only the 6 Nations? What about the rest of Europe?You do want to grow the game don't you?

If you read back to my (much) earlier post I do say that in time the other nations could/should be added, when they are strong enough. At the moment the likes of Germany, Georgia, Spain, Portugal are not at that level. That's why the Amlin should be the starting point, and is for some of them.

However, in the HC we already have 6 nations involved. For me it is a backwards step to go to a system that has the quite real possiblility of excluding 1 or 2 nations from the top table. So I am all about growing the game, thank you very much, and I feel the current proposals that include only the top 6 finishers in the Pro 12 could restrict growth rather than develop it. I'm all for better qualification from the Pro 12, but I do think we should gurantee at least 1 from each nation.

Lets see whats really happening here.


A cartel is a formal agreement among competing firms. It is a formal organization where there is a small number of sellers and usually involve homogeneous products. Cartel members may agree on such matters as price fixing, total industry output, market shares, allocation of customers, allocation of territories, bid rigging, establishment of common sales agencies, and the division of profits or combination of these. The aim of such collusion (also called the cartel agreement) is to increase individual members' profits by reducing competition.


The English and French want less Rabo teams because they want more money. So they're operating like a cartel.

I'd love to see the 4 other unions tell them to take their ball and f-off. That would give them a rude awakening and maybe its what they need. Honestly, if they want to bully then bully them back.

There would be less money for a season or two but the Pro 12 would go from strength to strength and the Pro 12 teams wouldn't need as many foreigners on their teams which would boost their international squads.

Figures crossed

I can see your point but I want the HC to be the elite(not elitist),the best of the best.We have 3 leagues.If one country can get all their teams into the top 6 of the RABO why shouldnt they all be in the HC
PRO
you really think that the RABO teams could survive without the HC?

broadlandboy wrote:I can see your point but I want the HC to be the elite(not elitist),the best of the best.We have 3 leagues.If one country can get all their teams into the top 6 of the RABO why shouldnt they all be in the HC
PRO
you really think that the RABO teams could survive without the HC?

The Rabo league is growing but no European competition for a season would help it grow quicker. There would also be more room for international matches to boost the money supply. I wouldn't like to see too many internationals but they do it in the southern hemisphere to make money.

broadlandboy wrote:
Maest
Wouldnt it be better that they were competitve in a 2nd tier with a chance of winning rather than whipping boys in the top if it didnt hit them too hard financially. Keep improving & qualify by right

I think the difference in profits between HEC and Amlin are reasonably dramatic. That lack of revenue would be detrimental. Not so much to a country like Ireland or Wales where it is most likely that one or two teams would drop to the Amlin Cup, but if in Italy or Scotland's case where either or both of their teams dropped down, they would lose not just profits but the profile of their rugby teams.

I do see your point, but I think it is the profile of the game in those countries, ones which struggle for attendances, players and financing from advertisers that would suffer if they were excluded.

I don't think the sacrifice of including one Italian or one Scot as a compulsory entry would degrade the competition or the league that supplies those teams.

broadlandboy wrote:I can see your point but I want the HC to be the elite(not elitist),the best of the best.We have 3 leagues.If one country can get all their teams into the top 6 of the RABO why shouldnt they all be in the HC
PRO
you really think that the RABO teams could survive without the HC?

Yes (because the unions are behind them)....while the PRL wont survive. The French clubs probably can but they are chancing their arms with the possibility of getting more money but ultimately its a good thing for them so dont want to rock the boat completely.

broadlandboy wrote:I can see your point but I want the HC to be the elite(not elitist),the best of the best.We have 3 leagues.If one country can get all their teams into the top 6 of the RABO why shouldnt they all be in the HC
PRO
you really think that the RABO teams could survive without the HC?

It's a good question, and you can't really argue with a suggestion of places based on merit. But for me it still comes back to growing the game and being a european showcase. If, for example, the 4 Irish provinces and 2 Welsh made up the top 6 in the Pro 12, and thus Italy and Scotland didn't make it to the HC, I don't think that does the game any favours in those countries. I think that less exposure at that level in terms of competiton, media, etc. will lead to a drop in growth. I guess with this in mind the same question could be asked of you - 'you do want growth don't you?!'

Here's a suggestion then, the fairest one. However, this would mean more games, tired players, etc., etc:

How about everyone has to qualify by playing in qualifying leagues/rounds. That way England may end up having no representation too, just in the interest of fairness.

Unfortunatley Griff too many games already unless it went to a straight knock out comp which would be bad for away support as dont think there would be time for supporters to plan.I could live with one from each Union & the next best placed in the league
Have you looked at my previous proposals above

Griff wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:I can see your point but I want the HC to be the elite(not elitist),the best of the best.We have 3 leagues.If one country can get all their teams into the top 6 of the RABO why shouldnt they all be in the HC
PRO
you really think that the RABO teams could survive without the HC?

It's a good question, and you can't really argue with a suggestion of places based on merit. But for me it still comes back to growing the game and being a european showcase. If, for example, the 4 Irish provinces and 2 Welsh made up the top 6 in the Pro 12, and thus Italy and Scotland didn't make it to the HC, I don't think that does the game any favours in those countries. I think that less exposure at that level in terms of competiton, media, etc. will lead to a drop in growth. I guess with this in mind the same question could be asked of you - 'you do want growth don't you?!'

Agree, I wrote practically the same reply when asked the same question two posts above yours.

Broadland,

Yes I have, and I agree on a number of fronts. My big thing is the guarantee of places to each nation, with each of the 'big 6' nations being guaranteed at least 1 place: that's just important to me. I'd be happy with 50% from each nation, so 6 England, 6 France, 2 Ireland, 2 Wales, 1 Scotland, 1 Italy, with 2 more places being available maybe to the Pro 12, and maybe in a 2 leg knockout with the English and French 7th place? I don't particularly like the extra place for the nation that wins the HC/AC. Dragging my team, the Dragons, along to the HC just because the Ospreys win the HC is not great IMO. Not going to happen any time soon though!

Not sure how the nations would select their 50% though. Maybe on relative league placings? Maybe have an extra two for the Pro12 so that nations could up their entrants by 1. Not sure how that would work though as league placings would be all over the place. Maybe if a Pro 12 team gets their 50% in the top 6 and another team in the top 6 then that other team gets to go too? Sounds messy. Will need some work.

IMVHO I think that it would grow quicker with teams winning & progressing in the Amlin than being beaten in the HC.So that a money gap doesnt appear all teams get the same per game in either HC/Amlin.Progress, play more games get more money
Griff
I didnt propose a team getting dragged in(unless as a last resort)

broadlandboy wrote:IMVHO I think that it would grow quicker with teams winning & progressing in the Amlin than being beaten in the HC.So that a money gap doesnt appear all teams get the same per game in either HC/Amlin.Progress, play more games get more money
Griff
I didnt propose a team getting dragged in(unless as a last resort)

But teams are more likely to get good sponsors, good attendances playing HEC teams than Amlin.

Play one of the Giants of Europe like Munster, Clermont, Toulouse, Leinster and your gate receipts will be bigger than an Amlin team like Bucharesti Wolves or Guernika

DOD wrote:
Yes (because the unions are behind them)....while the PRL wont survive. The French clubs probably can but they are chancing their arms with the possibility of getting more money but ultimately its a good thing for them so dont want to rock the boat completely.

I know that finances are a big struggle for a lot of the championship clubs, but if they can survive without HC funding I'm pretty sure that the premiership would be just fine (even if clubs did need to review their income/expenditure). I'm yet to see any evidence at all that Heineken Cup matches would bring in any more revenue than additional premiership or TOP14 matches (albeit the last data I looked at was about 6 years ago) so I expect that both the English and French clubs have an expanded league in mind if renegotiation of the Heineken Cup doesn't work for them.

See following... http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2006/mar/30/rugbyunion.gdnsport3

This also makes it very clear that the English and French clubs have been complaining about the set up long before the Irish had a decent winning run. Following the above dispute there were changes, with PRL getting more control over the English votes and the French clubs getting most of the French vote. I think that the problem they have now is that very little has happened with it, as they still have less than 1/3 of the votes between them and the French clubs can be vetoed by the FFR.

Despite the fact that the English and French clubs have quite literally been complaining for years nothing has happened, hence they have now given notice to withdraw and - shock horror - all of a sudden it becomes a talking point. Both for the supporters and ERC.

So, by all means disagree with PRL and the French clubs, there are plenty of suggestions they have that I disagree with. However, don't kid yourself into thinking that they need the Heineken Cup to survive, and (for those that have suggested it is the case) don't kid yourself into thinking this is purely jealousy at recent Irish success - the argument was there long before that.

No suggestion its to do with jealousy of recent Irish success. Its primarily to do with Money in this case and when Money becomes the primary factor then good luck. Its a european competition. Thats how I like my HC. If you think the PR teams will survive without it or even prosper then good luck to them they havent/couldnt in the past and wont in the future. The French clubs could but they still see it as a positive which is why their support for the PRL is half hearted.

Maest
I cant win,after my original proposal I was told that there would be no incentive to play in the HC rather than Amlin.This was the fairest that I could see,if anyone can think of a better way I am open to suggestions
DOD
The ERC had a meeting with all interested parties exept the PRL to try & get the French on side. They said"Non"

broadlandboy wrote:Maest
I cant win,after my original proposal I was told that there would be no incentive to play in the HC rather than Amlin.This was the fairest that I could see,if anyone can think of a better way I am open to suggestions
DOD
The ERC had a meeting with all interested parties exept the PRL to try & get the French on side. They said"Non"

They said they were unhappy that the PRL werent represented....but they still went along

I've seen that article before, I love it when Blanco says

""In 10 years of the Heineken Cup, only once has an English or French team not won it," said Blanco. (Ulster won in 1999). "The Celts are profiting from us and that is unacceptable."

So Celtic teams are not doing it England and France that are and should have more of the spoils.

Since he said that 5 of the 7 cups have been won by Celtic Countries, yet they still say that they should have a bigger share??