The hot topic in golf today

by BertieBeef Thu 25 Oct 2012, 11:54 pm

Do you leave a rake inside or outside a bunker?

by Dave The Jackal Fri 26 Oct 2012, 8:52 am

I've always been told they should be left in the middle of bunkers ... to stop balls being trapped on the sloping edges or, if left outside, stopping balls entering the bunker in the first place. In practice though, they are left all over the place, very often outside or at the edges. Can't say I get overly excited about it though!

by gaelgowfer Fri 26 Oct 2012, 9:37 am

BertieBeef wrote:Do you leave a rake inside or outside a bunker?

There is no rule to cover this but R&A recommend leaving it outside. I think the fairest place to leave it though is in the middle of the bunker and definitely NOT inside the back edge as so many logic by-pass pretend golfers do. steam

by JeffCarnage Fri 26 Oct 2012, 9:54 am

BertieBeef wrote:Do you leave a rake inside or outside a bunker?

What an intruiging subject. I could talk for days about it.

by raycastleunited Fri 26 Oct 2012, 10:07 am

Doesn't everyone employ someone carrying a rake to follow their group and rake bunkers for them?

by JeffCarnage Fri 26 Oct 2012, 10:13 am

raycastleunited wrote:Doesn't everyone employ someone carrying a rake to follow their group and rake bunkers for them?

Well of course I do. It goes without saying. But at night, do they live on the edge or in the middle of the bunker? That's the discussion.

by McLaren Fri 26 Oct 2012, 11:07 am

At night the green staff should collect them and put them in a shed.

The real question is why do we even have rakes?

I say get rid of them and play from unraked bunkers.

by super_realist Fri 26 Oct 2012, 11:12 am

Mac, if bunkers aren't raked they go rock solid and plants start to take hold.

Secondly, golf is hard enough without having to play out of someones fat footprints, and even the best pro's only get up and down around 60% of the time out of perfect bunkers.

They are there to punish you for errant shots, not further punish you with an atrocious lie.

by barragan Fri 26 Oct 2012, 11:17 am

Like this:

Spoiler:

by McLaren Fri 26 Oct 2012, 11:20 am

Super

The green staff could just rake the bunkers once a day to stop the issues you raised taking hold.

by super_realist Fri 26 Oct 2012, 11:22 am

It's not very fair on people who are out late in the day though is it?

Why remove the rake? I really don't see the point. Bunkers are hard enough, even for good players. You'd be making it far too hard for hackers like yourself, plus the useful "design" feature of having a rake is that it offers the player an opportunity to get up and down, introduce a dozen footprints which can be left by just one player and you make it a virtual impossibility.

You don't think much through do you.

by McLaren Fri 26 Oct 2012, 11:27 am

Super

Do you have any proof that unraked bunkers are on average harder to escape from than raked ones? Assuming a ball does not plug the main problem in getting out of bunkers is the height of the face and your proximity to it. Bunker shots should be played by blasting through the sand, i dont think the sand being uneven would hinder this.

by super_realist Fri 26 Oct 2012, 11:34 am

Mac, it's bloody obvious. All you need to do is try it on a practice area before and after it's raked. Different levels of compaction affect how the club goes through it. I know you don't practice or even really play golf but I do and it is harder.
It's just like a wet bunker. It reacts totally differently. Removing rakes is just stupid, and there is no point at all in doing so.

by Diggers Fri 26 Oct 2012, 11:36 am

What type of rake is it ?

by Caito Fri 26 Oct 2012, 11:40 am

I have never understood the randa recommendation that they are left outside. Seems to me this results in shots that should have gone in potentially being stopped by the rake.

I read an article about Peter Thompson in one of the golf mags a while back where he said that in the first open he competed in they raked the bunkers on the Monday and that was it for the whole week! A bit extreme but I have some sympathy with the view that bunkers should be penal although i think the issue is more with some of the US style bunkers where being in the bunker is preferable to being on the grass beside it.

Personally I have a real mental block with bunkers. Know what to do, can get out OK when practising when I get on the course it all goes to pot.

by JeffCarnage Fri 26 Oct 2012, 11:47 am

McLaren wrote:Super

Do you have any proof that unraked bunkers are on average harder to escape from than raked ones? Assuming a ball does not plug the main problem in getting out of bunkers is the height of the face and your proximity to it. Bunker shots should be played by blasting through the sand, i dont think the sand being uneven would hinder this.

The height of the face isn't the main problem in a bunker. The main issue is the lie you have.

by raycastleunited Fri 26 Oct 2012, 12:03 pm

What material should the teeth of rakes be made from, metal or plastic? Sometimes a basic rake leaves grooves in the bunker, but the newer heavier designs have a smoothing effect as well. Our club has recently introduced a number of rakes with metal spiral heads instead of teeth.

The rake handle is an important consideration. Much like the shaft of a driver you could call it the engine of the rake. Do people prefer the traditional wooden rake handle, or the more modern and lighter plastic options?

I'm waiting for Taylormade to bring out a series of rakes. We can be assured of a new model every year - Rocket Rakez maybe - that produces a 10% smoother finish than the last one.

by hend085 Fri 26 Oct 2012, 12:09 pm

raycastleunited wrote:What material should the teeth of rakes be made from, metal or plastic? Sometimes a basic rake leaves grooves in the bunker, but the newer heavier designs have a smoothing effect as well. Our club has recently introduced a number of rakes with metal spiral heads instead of teeth.

The rake handle is an important consideration. Much like the shaft of a driver you could call it the engine of the rake. Do people prefer the traditional wooden rake handle, or the more modern and lighter plastic options?

I'm waiting for Taylormade to bring out a series of rakes. We can be assured of a new model every year - Rocket Rakez maybe - that produces a 10% smoother finish than the last one.

by kwinigolfer Fri 26 Oct 2012, 12:19 pm

Don't think I've ever seen a rake left inside a bunker deliberately; can't imagine why anyone would think that's a good idea.

by raycastleunited Fri 26 Oct 2012, 1:01 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:Don't think I've ever seen a rake left inside a bunker deliberately; can't imagine why anyone would think that's a good idea.

see barragan's post. That same picture is up on the notice board at my club too.

by barragan Fri 26 Oct 2012, 1:17 pm

Really Ray? - i drew that myself...
thumbsup

by McLaren Fri 26 Oct 2012, 1:21 pm

JeffCarnage wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Do you have any proof that unraked bunkers are on average harder to escape from than raked ones? Assuming a ball does not plug the main problem in getting out of bunkers is the height of the face and your proximity to it. Bunker shots should be played by blasting through the sand, i dont think the sand being uneven would hinder this.

The height of the face isn't the main problem in a bunker. The main issue is the lie you have.

Not sure I follow that? There are many times when the ball would have got out the bunker had it not hit the face.

by JAS Fri 26 Oct 2012, 1:22 pm

Caito wrote:I have never understood the randa recommendation that they are left outside. Seems to me this results in shots that should have gone in potentially being stopped by the rake.

I read an article about Peter Thompson in one of the golf mags a while back where he said that in the first open he competed in they raked the bunkers on the Monday and that was it for the whole week! A bit extreme but I have some sympathy with the view that bunkers should be penal although i think the issue is more with some of the US style bunkers where being in the bunker is preferable to being on the grass beside it.

Personally I have a real mental block with bunkers. Know what to do, can get out OK when practising when I get on the course it all goes to pot.

There's always one but I've had a low running approach shot hit a mislaid rake (outwith the bunker and shoot at almost right angles onto a down hill lie at the back of a bunker. Mind you I've also bounced off a greenside sprinkler into a bunker too....that's just how my luck roles somedays!!

by Roller_Coaster Fri 26 Oct 2012, 1:23 pm

I think the rake is just generally tossed in/around/near/half in half out at our place. I'm just grateful it seems to be used by most of the other members (although with varying degrees of success!)

by kwinigolfer Fri 26 Oct 2012, 1:26 pm

I thought these two nations were divided only by a common language but it seems we're divided by golf etiquette as well.

When was the last time you saw a rake in a bunker at The Open for instance? Silliest thing I ever heard of, or at least since Romney opened his mouth this morning.

by JeffCarnage Fri 26 Oct 2012, 1:28 pm

McLaren wrote:
JeffCarnage wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Do you have any proof that unraked bunkers are on average harder to escape from than raked ones? Assuming a ball does not plug the main problem in getting out of bunkers is the height of the face and your proximity to it. Bunker shots should be played by blasting through the sand, i dont think the sand being uneven would hinder this.

The height of the face isn't the main problem in a bunker. The main issue is the lie you have.

Not sure I follow that? There are many times when the ball would have got out the bunker had it not hit the face.

I guess it depends on how good you are! I think I'd struggle more if there was sand behind the ball, than if there was a four foot face to the bunker.

by JAS Fri 26 Oct 2012, 1:29 pm

McLaren wrote:
JeffCarnage wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Do you have any proof that unraked bunkers are on average harder to escape from than raked ones? Assuming a ball does not plug the main problem in getting out of bunkers is the height of the face and your proximity to it. Bunker shots should be played by blasting through the sand, i dont think the sand being uneven would hinder this.

The height of the face isn't the main problem in a bunker. The main issue is the lie you have.

Not sure I follow that? There are many times when the ball would have got out the bunker had it not hit the face.

So if you can't avoid hitting the face from a good lie....care to guess what the outcome would be from a ball lying in the depths of a Shane Lowry footprint??

by 1GrumpyGolfer Fri 26 Oct 2012, 2:23 pm

JAS wrote:
McLaren wrote:
JeffCarnage wrote:
McLaren wrote:Super

Do you have any proof that unraked bunkers are on average harder to escape from than raked ones? Assuming a ball does not plug the main problem in getting out of bunkers is the height of the face and your proximity to it. Bunker shots should be played by blasting through the sand, i dont think the sand being uneven would hinder this.

The height of the face isn't the main problem in a bunker. The main issue is the lie you have.

Not sure I follow that? There are many times when the ball would have got out the bunker had it not hit the face.

So if you can't avoid hitting the face from a good lie....care to guess what the outcome would be from a ball lying in the depths of a Shane Lowry footprint??

So how many remakes of a Hamlet advert would you get every day then?

by incontinentia Fri 26 Oct 2012, 2:40 pm

The head of the rake should be in the bunker with the handle poking out slightly so you can retrieve it easily.

by raycastleunited Fri 26 Oct 2012, 2:57 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:I thought these two nations were divided only by a common language but it seems we're divided by golf etiquette as well.

When was the last time you saw a rake in a bunker at The Open for instance? Silliest thing I ever heard of, or at least since Romney opened his mouth this morning.

They take all the rakes away at the Open, and each group is followed by a bloke with a rake. Good for your CV that one - "professional raker"

I would be happy to have someone follow me around the course with a rake. I've just spent a week in Spain mostly playing out of bunkers so he would have earned a good tip.

by barragan Fri 26 Oct 2012, 3:03 pm

When I worked as a labourer back in 2005(?) on the greens, our head greenkeeper went off to rake for the week at the TOC Open. Spotted his ugly mug following Woods and Montgomerie on the Saturday. He returned the following week Smug as could be.

by oldshanker Fri 26 Oct 2012, 4:23 pm

BertieBeef wrote:Do you leave a rake inside or outside a bunker?

Don't really care whether it is in or out. I just hope there is a) one there, b) has been used by the last incumbent and c) is close at hand and does not necessitate a half mile trek to get it! Whistle

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 26 Oct 2012, 4:38 pm

McLaren wrote:Super

Do you have any proof that unraked bunkers are on average harder to escape from than raked ones? Assuming a ball does not plug the main problem in getting out of bunkers is the height of the face and your proximity to it. Bunker shots should be played by blasting through the sand, i dont think the sand being uneven would hinder this.

Here's an experiment for you. Try a splash shot from a flat lie in a raked bunker. Now, rake it flat again and then stomp a footprint. Put the ball in the footprint near the rear edge (i.e. away from the direction you're aiming to come out of the bunker). Try and hit a splash bunker shot from that lie with the same control. The two scenarios are orders of magnitude different in terms of difficulty. You could remove some of the problem of the footprint if you use a wedge with next to no bounce but then you have the issue of the clubhead digging in sharply.

Must do better. Try again.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 26 Oct 2012, 4:40 pm

kwinigolfer wrote:...Silliest thing I ever heard of, or at least since Romney opened his mouth this morning.

by **navyblueshorts** Fri 26 Oct 2012, 4:41 pm

oldshanker wrote:Don't really care whether it is in or out. I just hope there is a) one there, b) has been used by the last incumbent and c) is close at hand and does not necessitate a half mile trek to get it!

Quite.

by Shotrock Fri 26 Oct 2012, 7:37 pm

Can't remember ever seeing a rake inside a bunker in these United States. I recall one course that had rake stands beside the bunker. Silly. Perhaps the most bunkered course I've played is Pine Valley, where they have no rakes at all. You are just asked to smooth the area with your foot after you play.

Kwin - I know we can count on Vermonters to do their part to keep Romney-isms mostly old news come mid November ... Hoping PA does same!

by kwinigolfer Fri 26 Oct 2012, 7:46 pm

Shotrock,
Batten down those Philly hatches - looks like you could get clobbered by this storm. Headed our way too.
Pretty sure PA will do the right thing, am optimistic Romney's "surge" has abated somewhat in the fuzzy haze of moronic r*** pronouncements. And, yes, you can be sure that VT will be the first to declare President Obama for another four years.

(I think if we came across a rake in a bunker it wouldn't stay there for long . . . . . . )

by dynamark Mon 29 Oct 2012, 12:06 pm

Watched a bit of US politics last evening.The church of the lateral hazard guys have some funny ideas.
Just shows anything is possible in the US if Romney can get this far.
Can you remind us the % of eligible citizens who actually have a vote(ie registered) .Im sure its something like 20 % which means the president can be voted in by about 10% of those of voting age.Very democratic.
Rakes in bunkers for me please.I actually use a nice sharp wedge for all bunker play as we are generally playing damp or compacted sand

by Diggers Mon 29 Oct 2012, 12:13 pm

I personally think voting should be compulsary, certainly for general elections certainly. You might think it would lead to all sorts of weird results, if you assume that its largely the less educated, politially and possibly socially apathetic elements of society that dont currently vote. That said its compulsary in Australia and actually enforced and they dont seem to have any bigger problems than we do.

by kwinigolfer Mon 29 Oct 2012, 12:29 pm

I think the turnout will be fairly robust this year despite the efforts of Republicans in certain States to systematically deny entire categories of its residents the vote.

Different thing here which makes a good turnout crucial is that there are a ton of other "items" on the ballot as well as President. On our ballot, for instance, we are voting for:
~President
~One US Senate seat
~US Congress
~State Governor, Treasurer, Attorney General
~State Legislature, Senate and Representatives
~City Council seat
~Four "City" initiatives, three financial, one to legalise marijuana.

And for most of these "races" there is a deluge of special interest money raining down, like a monsoon on our airwaves and other media. Woman in the next street from mine has tossed $1M into the ring primarily to persuade us to vote for the Sarah Palin-like candidate she favours for State Treasurer.

It's crazy I tell you!

We have US Senate candidates (12 at last count) who would deny abortion facilities for r--- victims because it's god's will.
Ooh, and a new poll yesterday reminded us that 51% of the population have self-admitted racial prejudices. Obama has a steep hill to climb.

by drive4show Mon 29 Oct 2012, 12:52 pm

Rakes in/out of bunkers being a hot topic? What utter rubbish!

Everyone knows the only real hot topic in golf is that after 4 versions of the Pro V1, why isn't it now called the Pro V4??

Come on Titleist, put us out of our misery.....................

ps...LJ sends his love Very Happy

by Bob_the_Job Mon 29 Oct 2012, 12:59 pm

drive4show wrote:...
Everyone knows the only real hot topic in golf is that after 4 versions of the Pro V1, why isn't it now called the Pro V4??.....

Because it sounds too much like an Irish terrorist cell?

Cue..s_r .. Doh

by Shotrock Mon 29 Oct 2012, 1:02 pm

Dyna - It absolutely is democratic ... whether the citizens eligible to vote actually take responsibility is another matter entirely.

Romney playing this by the numbers: He's already got the Conservative vote in the bag, so pander to the middle. Frankly, Obama doing the same thing pretty much. Don't underestimate Romney's intellect - Running Bain Capital as shrewdly as he did speaks to that.

Take a look at the red and blue states and you'll see there are some pretty divergent parts of this country - which is why it's so dangerous to stereotype. Even in the red and blue states (as Kwini points out above) some very different opinions.

Endless parade of pundits on the airwaves, thankfully an off switch on the TV. One (who's widely respected and with a high batting average) says Obama probably has a 75% chance to win this thing. The networks always report the swing states are close -- reporting otherwise would impact their ratings.

Time to batten down the hatches!

by super_realist Mon 29 Oct 2012, 4:04 pm

Bob_the_Job wrote:
drive4show wrote:...
Everyone knows the only real hot topic in golf is that after 4 versions of the Pro V1, why isn't it now called the Pro V4??.....

Because it sounds too much like an Irish terrorist cell?

Cue..s_r ..

DOn't be silly, I love the Irish, shane lowry, the craic, leprechauns etc. I would nver speak ill of them.

by lorus59 Mon 29 Oct 2012, 4:54 pm

The hot topic should be how much Rory and Tiger were paid for one round of golf in China.

by pedro Thu 01 Nov 2012, 2:28 pm

"Rakes in or out" should be on the ballot. That's more important than most of the stuff that's otherwise debated.

by Doon the Water Thu 01 Nov 2012, 2:41 pm

This thread is a bit like watching the Ronnie Crobett mastermind sketch where his chosen subject was:- Answering questions to the previous question.

by Shotrock Thu 01 Nov 2012, 6:51 pm

I'm guessing this will be the next hot topic:

http://golfweek.com/news/2012/oct/31/bradley-intends-fight-usga-anchoring/

by JAS Thu 01 Nov 2012, 8:04 pm

Indeed Shotrock, so what's this boards consensus then? Yay or nay to the belly?

Quite frankly Bradley has got other issues he needs to address before spending time fighting this.... I'd like to see him shorten his pre shot routine....by about 5 minutes !!

by kwinigolfer Thu 01 Nov 2012, 8:21 pm

Spot on regarding Keegan Bradley JAS.

I also think the governing bodies of golf have more important things to worry about, like the distance the golf ball travels.

One thing I noticed about the guys using long putters is that, almost to a man, those who have used them the longest are very poor (by Tour standards) chippers of the ball - Bradley, Clark, Simpson, Pettersson to name a few. Doesn't seem to apply to Els or Scott or Couples, for instance, who came to the belly putter late in life, but they blokes who've been using them since College seem very mechanical around the green.

Thoughts?

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