Come on Pro 12, sort it out.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.v2journal.com/come-on-pro-12-sort-it-out.html
This was supposed to be a match report of the Scarlets' defeat of Edinburgh at Murrayfield. However the whole experience caused me to question the very existence of the Rabo Direct Pro 12.

On Saturday night, a Grassmarket pub showed the Clermont v Biaritz top 14 match followed by the Gloucester v Leicester premiership match. These matches were a world apart from the previous night's Pro 12 offering, especially in terms of intensity.

But why should that be so? Wales and Ireland are strong internationally, competing well with England and France. Scotland and Italy are punching above their weight given their limited player resources. Irish provinces are amongst the most successful sides in the ERC.

I can't accept that the lack of intensity relates to the quality of players available, even given the Irish presumption in favour of resting international players. As regional or provincial teams, the squads should be more consistent in terms of strength in depth than all but one or two of the strongest Anglo-French clubs.

There must be a Flat Earth Society type of refusal on the part of the Unions involved to acknowledge the fundamental problem right at the heart of this league. It's as if the league is addicted to mediocrity. We all know that the fist step to tackling an addiction is to recognise that you have a problem.

To be fair, it seems that the regions are trying to push the league. However, no amount of promotion and marketing can save you if the product is not right.

And the product is not right.

I was one of only a couple of thousand people in Murrayfield Friday night. Murrayfield. The same Murrayfield that holds almost 70,000 people when full, yet six nations international tickets are so hard to come by. Where fans travel in their thousands from others of the Six Nations to follow their international team every spring.

There was just no atmosphere. Very little noise. Very little competitive chanting or singing. Late in the second half the Edinburgh faithful were incensed by the refereeing decision that gave Rhys Priestland the chance of a three pointer to win the game and net five league points as opposed to two. It was the first time it felt anything like watching top class rugby. It's significant that it was displeasure at the referee that caused this blip. That is the sort of negative thing that does not inspire potential attendees.

The basic truth is that it seems Edinburgh could keep doing what they are doing for a thousand years they will never fill Murrayfield for a Pro 12 game.

Why? The product does not elicit enough of an emotional response; and its not limited to Edinburgh.

I suspected at the time that hearing Gareth Charles getting all excited and the massaging of what little atmosphere there was by the positioning of the effects microphone would have made this a match that was best watched on TV. If fans prefer the TV to a ticket, that is an insurmountable hill to climb for the league.

It is a cyclical problem. No fans turn up, the play is not inspired, fans are not motivated to attend and so on. This also means that very few numbers of away fans are prepared to make the long journeys involved in every non derby fixture. Only Irish provinces are bucking the trend, but even then that's a position that can't be sustainable.

Then there's the lack of tradition, or let's face it, the grudge element of the old Anglo-Welsh games to tempt away fans to travel.

Often the officiating results in a default position of most teams trying to stop the other side playing rather than trying to play some football themselves as the breakdown becomes a lottery. None of this helps.

Ironically however, the big two may through the ERC negotiations give the Pro 12 a much needed shot in the arm. I fully believe that the current collection of mini leagues within a league determining the ERC qualification of the four unions involved undermines the league. There is not enough of a risk factor in losing games with ERC qualification largely unaffected by results. The play offs have added some much needed interest in the top 6 at the end of the season, an ERC qualification battle would do the same for the bottom six. Anything which makes every game relevant to the future of the team, the coaches and players would boost intensity and the interest of away fans. This would draw more home fans as it creates a buzz.

Pro 12 Unions, your league is broken and yes, you do need to fix it.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Glas, I don't agree that it's the league formats fault that some teams are rubbish, underfunded and poorly attended. You might as well give the league format all the credit for some other teams being really good, well funded and well attended.

That's right, but the set up is stifling their ability to drag themselves out of the Poopie cart.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:For a start its 'Res Ipsa Loquitur' not 'Res Ipsa Loquitor', and it doesn't mean the facts speak for themselves. At least use wikipedia if you are going to be condescending and patronising.

My English spelling is bad so my Latin spelling has no hope. And what it means is not the same as what it translates to.

Now how's that for condescending?

I think there is a massive issue regarding the welsh regions (even though the o's are champions). Scotland has massive issues but in the original post it said it was difficult to get 6N tickets? Never had an issue no matter what stage I looked to go in getting a ticket at murrayfield.

Just to post a positive. Ulster have no terrace tickets left for the Edinburgh game this Friday, and very few promenade tickets. Tried to book a kids one today and was taken aback. First time I have ever seen that in this fixture, even when it was an HEC game!

Cp10

Gaelic football is in no way similar to rugby and in certain parts of the country (particularly up north) it would be abhorrent to even consider going to ravenhill despite the best efforts of the branch. I hVe reasonably close links to Gaelic and let me tell you those involved eat, sleep and breath Gaelic games with little thought for anything else.

Glas a du wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:For a start its 'Res Ipsa Loquitur' not 'Res Ipsa Loquitor', and it doesn't mean the facts speak for themselves. At least use wikipedia if you are going to be condescending and patronising.

My English spelling is bad so my Latin spelling has no hope. And what it means is not the same as what it translates to.

Now how's that for condescending?

Pretty poor in truth. The application of the 'facts speaking for itself' is not the same as the legal intention prescribed by the maxim Res Ipsa Loquitur. The legal principle is not that the facts speak for themselves. Thats a gross oversimplification. But I'm sure you knew that

Glas a du wrote:

No league has room for a "We're useless so we're not going to try" team.
No league really should have time for a "Well, if we had relegation then at least we useless sides could have a good fight about it" *Yawn* - yep, that's always interesting.
No league should have time for sides that might say "We need an excuse to want to win even though it's our ability that stopping us winning anyway" Cop out.

I assumed you'd meant by this that such teams should be kicked out.

Of course teams want to win, but there is not enough of a reason not to lose in the Pro 12.

Sorry, Glas...just... I want to say rubbish but that belittles the idea that you have legitmate opinions. And you do have them and are entitled to them but that last line I just can't in any way tolerate as an argument put forward to explain why sides might fail to do what their fans and what their League and what their own career prospects as individual players and coaches require of them.

I - don't - buy - this oft put out there reason that AP or Top14 is more competitive because they have more 'reasons' for winning and more reasons for not losing. Don't buy it for a second. The truth is Top14 has more class and the truth is that AP has more resources and more consistent ability than many Pro12 sides. It is not the structure of Pro12 that has some Pro12 sides continually put in poor performances - it is simply their ability as players and/or their coaching that stalls their motivation to win and produces the 'rubbish'. Structure won't change ability in coahing and/or player base.

AP is an English league - the important emphasis is 'English' - a whole, a big pool of potential. The French League is the same - French, a big pool of potential. Irish rugby doesn't run or quality control Scottish sides, Welsh rugby doesn't quality control Italian sides. It's a fools game to expect quality to be as consistent in small nations as it is in big ones. League format is not the issue and will not solve gaping holes in ability between sides.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Glas a du wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:For a start its 'Res Ipsa Loquitur' not 'Res Ipsa Loquitor', and it doesn't mean the facts speak for themselves. At least use wikipedia if you are going to be condescending and patronising.

My English spelling is bad so my Latin spelling has no hope. And what it means is not the same as what it translates to.

Now how's that for condescending?

Pretty poor in truth. The application of the 'facts speaking for itself' is not the same as the legal intention prescribed by the maxim Res Ipsa Loquitur. The legal principle is not that the facts speak for themselves. Thats a gross oversimplification. But I'm sure you knew that

Also my memory from studying the law of Delict, I'm a Scot we don't do Tort. Anyway that was a long time ago, did something more useful with my life. So back on topic my original point was Scottish crowds are growing, it will take time, but moving in the right direction.

justified sinner wrote:
Also my memory from studying the law of Delict, I'm a Scot we don't do Tort. Anyway that was a long time ago, did something more useful with my life. So back on topic my original point was Scottish crowds are growing, it will take time, but moving in the right direction.

We obviously didn't do delict, but isn't there something to do with a granny getting a wild case of the runs from drinking snail infested beer or something along those lines? That's proper law at work.

Res ipso loquitur - it speaks for itself. That's how I remember it from land law many years ago at Uni. And I remember something about the snail infested beer too!

Donohue v Stevenson ginger beer iirc

The truth is Top14 has more class and the truth is that AP has more resources and more consistent ability than many Pro12 sides. It is not the structure of Pro12 that has some Pro12 sides continually put in poor performances - it is simply their ability as players and/or their coaching that stalls their motivation to win and produces the 'rubbish'. Structure won't change ability in coahing and/or player base.

Yet those players have won grand slams in four of the last 8 championships, and if they hadn't faced each other in the quarter finals of the World Cup could realistically have both made the semi finals of the World Cup. The Irish provinces are the kings of Europe. There are only four sides in Ireland and Wales for these players to play for.

If it's not the league structure which means that the Pro 12 is terrible, then what is it?

And are the league structures of England and France not responsible for the success of their domestic game? If not, what is, money? Where does that come from? TV, merchandising, gates and benefactors. We get less of each, but will never improve that situation relatively unless we determine that we need to.

At some time the point you make about it being a league of four separate parts not responsible for or answerable to each other will have to change.

Fly, the pro 12 just isn't sexy. Get more riding on each game, have something to lose and it gains urgency, it becomes sexy.

The big issue that needs addressing TV times.

Tell clubs who want Friday night fixtures to feckoff. Tell TG4 and S4C (not exactly big bucks TV stations) that games dont take place on Sundays.

The best thing the league could do is work on increasing attendances especially on non derby weekends.

If your trying to encourage people living in Galway to fly over to Parma you won't get 1 person if the game is on a Friday night.

If Ospreys are playing Edinburgh and you are hoping for Scotsmen to travel down to Swansea then you better make sure its not Sunday afternoon.

Thats a gross oversimplification.

Of course it is. Sorry I didn't realise you wanted a thesis.

It's a doctrine not a maxim. But we split hairs. It's the doctrine that dictates, for example, that where a car is crashed into a tree ten yards off a straight, dry road in good condition and in broad daylight, with no intervention from pedestrians or animals, you can assume that the driver was careless without having to prove that in detail. You can summarise that in language as you will, but it basically means that you needn't prove the bleedin' obvious, which was my point.

I have very busy weekends and the only time I can guarantee a relaxed time to myself and a lovely game is Friday nights!
Oh the complexity of it all of trying to keep us all happy!

But I'm willing to give up my Friday nights for the good of Pro12 Ain't I a generous sort.

red_stag wrote:The big issue that needs addressing TV times.

Tell clubs who want Friday night fixtures to feckoff. Tell TG4 and S4C (not exactly big bucks TV stations) that games dont take place on Sundays.

The best thing the league could do is work on increasing attendances especially on non derby weekends.

If your trying to encourage people living in Galway to fly over to Parma you won't get 1 person if the game is on a Friday night.

If Ospreys are playing Edinburgh and you are hoping for Scotsmen to travel down to Swansea then you better make sure its not Sunday afternoon.

I agree Stag but don't tell Hookie, Rava, Notch et al...... ......

Glas a du wrote:

Thats a gross oversimplification.

Of course it is. Sorry I didn't realise you wanted a thesis.

It's a doctrine not a maxim. But we split hairs. It's the doctrine that dictates, for example, that where a car is crashed into a tree ten yards off a straight, dry road in good condition and in broad daylight, with no intervention from pedestrians or animals, you can assume that the driver was careless without having to prove that in detail. You can summarise that in language as you will, but it basically means that you needn't prove the bleedin' obvious, which was my point.

I'd rather just have accuracy than a thesis thanks. The term is a maxim, its legal application is a doctrine. You applied the maxim not the doctrine, unless you were saying that the body that founded the Celtic League was negligent in some convoluted way (which I bet you would have a right good stab at). Also the example you stated doesn't work unless the driver was pursuing some sort of actionable tort.

Also Rodders, I agree. Rugby is a Saturday sport. I hate friday night matches, or sunday for that matter.

Spot on Stag. The TV bosses won't take on the Premiership (Hookisms, that's English and Welsh football). Between each national broadcaster almost all the games are televised, it's overkill. Yet, we won't get to see any other country's derbys which are the best games!

The Saturday evening fixture is by far the best time for generating large crowds:

- Friday nights tend to only work well in large urban areas. However they are poison for away fans and tend to be unsuitable for families as a 7:45 game won't finish until about half 9.

- Sunday again is poor for the travelling support. It also puts off a lot of home fans as they will feel they can't have a load of drinks with work the next day.

- Saturday lunch time (the traditional rugby fixture time) is when the local clubs play. You cannot risk alienating the grasroots clubs and if you play your cards right and had a scheme with a good coach service you could easily get all the local teams down to the stadium after their match in time for the 6pm kickoff.

6pm Saturday - The Ideal Time. Its late enough to allow the clubs to play and to segue nicely from the match to the pub to the night club. Its early enough for families to take kids and mean your not out til late at night.

I also like Friday nights and Saturday afternoons, but appreciate nothing works for everyone. A lot of guys in Edinburgh play, or follow their local club on a Saturday so a no go for them. I normally have social arrangements on a Saturday night so not great for me. We live in the 21st century and TV dictates schedules, see soccer. What the Pro 12 really needs is a decent TV deal across all the participating countries, not for the cash, but to raise the interest. That sadly hasn't happened.

Justified Sinner, if we got a good TV deal I wouldnt care that much about when we have games scheduled and Id be much happier to move for them.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Glas a du wrote:

Thats a gross oversimplification.

Of course it is. Sorry I didn't realise you wanted a thesis.

It's a doctrine not a maxim. But we split hairs. It's the doctrine that dictates, for example, that where a car is crashed into a tree ten yards off a straight, dry road in good condition and in broad daylight, with no intervention from pedestrians or animals, you can assume that the driver was careless without having to prove that in detail. You can summarise that in language as you will, but it basically means that you needn't prove the bleedin' obvious, which was my point.

I'd rather just have accuracy than a thesis thanks. The term is a maxim, its legal application is a doctrine. You applied the maxim not the doctrine, unless you were saying that the body that founded the Celtic League was negligent in some convoluted way. Also the example you stated doesn't work unless the drive was pursuing some sort of actionable tort.

Funny that, it's the example given in Wilkinson's Road Traffic as to how the doctrine applies to the criminal offence of driving without due care and attention, generally regarded as the standard text in such matters.

And I certainly believe that there is more than a convoluted negligence in the way the Pro 12 was set up.

Glas a du wrote:

At some time the point you make about it being a league of four separate parts not responsible for or answerable to each other will have to change.

Fly, the pro 12 just isn't sexy. Get more riding on each game, have something to lose and it gains urgency, it becomes sexy.

So Glas.. if Irish sides are the example setters and the achievers and we want more sex in our shuddering stop-start league, and if we need more responsibility to each other and understand that we all need to give up our autonomous views as four nations. Then the only solution I can find is that the rest of you - Scotland, Wales and Italy hand over your misfiring Unions and clubs to us - the Irish .
Come under the comforting banket of caring, nurturing and support that the IRFU will provide. The IRFU will represent all competing Pro12 sides, will organise player contracts, choose players, create development sides, shore up promising sides and generally turn the misfiring league and sides into sides that will function at Provincial levels all through the league The sexiest league in Europe AND Pro12 HEC champions for the next fifteen years! Our One Leader guarantee!

There, I'm sure everyone will be happy to give up their national autonomies when IRFU (as sole controller) can promise a much more sexy league of real passion and intent.

.......................................................................!!!!

red_stag wrote:Justified Sinner, if we got a good TV deal I wouldnt care that much about when we have games scheduled and Id be much happier to move for them.

Agreed

SecretFly wrote:

Glas a du wrote:

At some time the point you make about it being a league of four separate parts not responsible for or answerable to each other will have to change.

Fly, the pro 12 just isn't sexy. Get more riding on each game, have something to lose and it gains urgency, it becomes sexy.

So Glas.. if Irish sides are the example setters and the achievers and we want more sex in our shuddering stop-start league, and if we need more responsibility to each other and understand that we all need to give up our autonomous views as four nations. Then the only solution I can find is that the rest of you - Scotland, Wales and Italy hand over your misfiring Unions and clubs to us - the Irish .
Come under the comforting banket of caring, nurturing and support that the IRFU will provide. The IRFU will represent all competing Pro12 sides, will organise player contracts, choose players, create development sides, shore up promising sides and generally turn the misfiring league and sides into sides that will function at Provincial levels all through the league The sexiest league in Europe AND Pro12 HEC champions for the next fifteen years! Our One Leader guarantee!

There, I'm sure everyone will be happy to give up their national autonomies when IRFU (as sole controller) can promise a much more sexy league of real passion and intent.

.......................................................................!!!!

You're so nice when your being nasty to me

One of the crucial things for me is to increase attendances adn atmosphere. Edinburgh should be £10 and kids go free - to build a crowd. It was great with 40 000 in murreyfeild for the HC last year, 3000 is not good at all in such a large stadium

Are you telling me Scottish people are so tight that a required outlay of £15 to £20 means they would be prepared to deny themselves the Pro12 experience? Or is it that the experience just isn't good enough to tempt them, even if they had to pay nothing?

I'll give you a clue, it's the latter.

The marketing of the whole league seems very poor, certainly is in Wales from what I see and here.

Last season when the Blues played their last home game there were 11 (I think) players playing their last game including Nuggett yet the marketing for it seemed non existent.

As a so-called prized asset for the Rabo, consider this:

Heineken Cup 12/13 / Home Attendance
Club Average Total Highest Lowest
Toulouse 28,000 28,000 28,000 28,000
Munster 22,146 22,146 22,146 22,146
Racing CF 21,102 21,102 21,102 21,102
Leicester Tigers 20,224 20,224 20,224 20,224
Leinster 18,500 18,500 18,500 18,500
Saracens 18,212 18,212 18,212 18,212
Clermont Auvergne 17,520 17,520 17,520 17,520
Harlequins 13,815 13,815 13,815 13,815
Toulon 12,547 12,547 12,547 12,547
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- 'benchmark'
Northampton Saints 12,115 12,115 12,115 12,115
Ulster 11,451 11,451 11,451 11,451
Castres 11,425 11,425 11,425 11,425
Montpellier 10,414 10,414 10,414 10,414
Exeter Chiefs 9,819 9,819 9,819 9,819
Cardiff Blues 9,624 9,624 9,624 9,624
Scarlets 9,555 9,555 9,555 9,555
Ospreys 8,746 8,746 8,746 8,746
Connacht 8,199 8,199 8,199 8,199
Biarritz 7,182 7,182 7,182 7,182
Edinburgh Reivers 6,543 6,543 6,543 6,543
Glasgow Caledonians 6,194 6,194 6,194 6,194
Sale Sharks 5,853 5,853 5,853 5,853
Benetton Treviso 5,000 5,000 5,000 5,000
Zebre 1,800 1,800 1,800 1,800

Average 12,333 Aggregate 295,986
http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=383&statType=home_Att

In the Rabo the attendances are listed at http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=413&statType=home_Att
and the Jeff at http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=407&statType=home_Att

I'm not listing the above because of space, the notoriously inaccurate statbunker for omitting some data (thus causing anomalies) and the skewing effect of special games like double-headers and so on.

Therefore I urge readers to view the stats as indicative only.

But they do seem to indicate that outside Ireland, the Rabo comparatively would struggle to fill a metaphorical village hall.

Bedford, you can't turn a pigs ear into a silk purse. Promotion can only do so much if the product is not right.

Grey tiger, two things of interest

1 Sale Sharks - worse than Welsh regions
Poor performance by a team does hit attendances.

2 Racing - got humped by Edinburgh of all people last year
Good performance can obviously help spike attendance figures.

Fly - I await your response.

Glas,

I agree but the promotion is pretty p poor or virtually non-existent at the moment as it is.

It's not too bad at the Scarlets to be fair. The Ospreys have had the edge there for a while. I can't answer for the Easties.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Can Edinburagh not play in either hibernians or hearts stadium? How far away are they from murrayfield?

Pitches are not big enough, and the pitches at Easter Road and Tynecastle are shockingly bad with football being played on them, after Rugby one week and football the next the grass would be dead by christmas.

This topic has been done to death but it's the fundamental problem with Scottish Rugby.

Last year 40 thousand packed out Murrayfield to watch Edinburgh Play Toulouse in the HC quarter final. It was a special day, and Edinburgh had a chance to really throw down a marker and encourage fans to attend the games regularly.

Then the new season starts and we are rubbish! That scunners all those who were encouraged to come along and watch them!

I don't live in Edinburgh and I thank my lucky stars I didn't invest in a season ticket this year. However when I want to watch Edinburgh play on Friday, ordinarily I would have to leave work early, get home, catch a train taht now costs £12 return to Edinburgh and pay 20 quid for my ticket! Thats 32 quid swallowed before I have even touched a !

However it's hard to get a stadium packed when you are getting charged £20 to watch frankly shambolic performances. If Edinburgh play consistantly well you'll start having a chance to get over 10000 people regularly. They'll have something to cheer about and recomend coming to the games to their friends.

Instead most Edinburgh fans have been shuffling home after being gubbed in a freezing empty stadium. If the Irish provinces were getting gubbed most weeks in a stadium with barely a 10th of it's capacity in attendence I doubt they would be selling out either.

Edinburgh need to take a leaf out of Glasgow's books (and this is where RDW and I disagree) and revamp Meadow Bank stadium and grow into it like Glasgow are doing at Scotstoun.

Glas a du wrote:Grey tiger, two things of interest

1 Sale Sharks - worse than Welsh regions
Poor performance by a team does hit attendances.

2 Racing - got humped by Edinburgh of all people last year
Good performance can obviously help spike attendance figures.

Fly - I await your response.

1. Sale are struggling both on the pitch and off. I didn't massage any figures though. I just pasted them in all their gory glory.
2. Edinburgh's (or anyone's really) "Good performance can obviously help spike attendance figures", whats's your point?

Incidentally, I've never seen a Treviso attendance figure this season which is not a precise multiple of 500.
I have this image of five centurions in full Roman regalia in a vestibule area marshalling fans into the arena only when a full complement of 500 plebians are assembled. At such point the cohort each under the leadership of an eagle standard enters in triumphal procession.

Edinburgh need to take a leaf out of Glasgow's books (and this is where RDW and I disagree) and revamp Meadow Bank stadium and grow into it like Glasgow are doing at Scotstoun.

I'm sure that Alex Salmond will find the funds for the rebuild of Meadowbank.

He'll promise the funds in Euros or Sterling or McPoonds.

Just sign on the dotted line here X and here X
And here X







And here X






















And just one more, here

greytiger wrote:

Edinburgh need to take a leaf out of Glasgow's books (and this is where RDW and I disagree) and revamp Meadow Bank stadium and grow into it like Glasgow are doing at Scotstoun.

I'm sure that Alex Salmond will find the funds for the rebuild of Meadowbank.

He'll promise the funds in Euros or Sterling or McPoonds.

Just sign on the dotted line here X and here X
And here X


And here X


And just one more, here

I wouldn't trust that dobber further than I could throw him. But that's another matter for another thread.

Edinburgh and to an extent Scottish rugby have been in a vicious cycle the last few years. To generate money you need supporters, to generate support you need to be winning, to win you need money to invest..... the cycle continues.

So am I right in seeing that in this article alot of things are being based on Leinster thumping Cardiff and matches like that. I don't know but that is what I thought happened when a top if not the top European team plays a team that right now is awful and that my friends is nothing to do with the rabo thats the cardiff management and players fault. The same could be said for an Edinburgh side that have not played well this year and that is not just confined to the Rabo but also in Europe. The 2 games mentioned in the article where 2 top of the table clashes would the intensity be poor at an Ulster v Munster or Leinster game no. As for attendances Ravenhill is often full or very close and the atmosphere is great. Now I am not saying the Rabo is perfect or that it doesn't need change but maybe it is time for teams and supporters from places that are not doing it themselves to stop blaming others and start taking a long look at themselves and what they can do. Those calling for the league to be disbanded etc tell me what do you think is then going to happen? The English sides are not just going to accept Welsh teams etc into their league especially if Wales cannot draw crowds etc and as I mentioned before that is not a Rabo problem so please tell me what is the plan? If people would spend less time complaining about the league and more time actually trying to sort out things about their own club and some things which may be the Rabo's problem then maybe things would be much better.

Heres a few positive (try being positive sometime) things the league offers.

-The Rabo is by far the youngest league of the big 3 in Europe and has grown at a rapid pace.
-The crowds have grown constantly.
-The quality is getting better all the time. Last years final was the best of the big 3 European leagues.
-Rabo teams have won 5 of the last 7 HECs.
-The league has an international flavour to it with varying styles and attack, defense systems etc.
-The league is a massive boost to the international teams and helps them be competitive.
-The Rabo league allows teams to develop their own players. Theres more talent coming through than ever, with the exception of Italy but they're new to the league and on the right path.
-It allows players to play at home therefore they can be looked after better.
-It generates coverage of rugby for most of the year that the club game in the Celtitalian countries might have struggled for.
-Sponsorship has increased over the years.


Remember that the league is made up of 12 individual teams. Those who do the most complaining are usually supporters of a team going bad so take their frustration out on the league. In reality its up to every team and to a lesser degree, their union, to get their own house in order.

Its not the Rabos fault that the WRU are not giving them more money.
Its not the Rabos fault that a section of Welsh fans hate the regions.
Its not the Rabos fault that Edinburgh have been terrible this season.
Its not the Rabos fault that Cardiff underachieved and Ospreys overspent in previous years.

Few points I think
1) some are saying that no relegation, means teams are not trying as to win, this is never directed at super XV teams. Its professional players earning thier pay, if they don't perform they are dropped same as super XV.

2) this seams to be more focused on Scotlands issues than Wales Irelands or Italys.

For the Scottish issues I feel that the SRU neglected them for a long time, however they have got thier act together now somewhat, Finding Glasgow a decent new home, bringing in quality players to both teams (Glasgow have done better), Edinburgh are well known to be stuck at Murrayfield, hopefully a solution can be found, (always though Back pitches a good Idea with temp stands.

However I do think it is a poor reflection of the District teams and SRU's running off them, that Connacht are getting about the same crowds when these two teams are based in big population area's. You can cite a number of reasons but Connacht face bigger problems to draw crowds.

Compete with football (Connacht compete with GAA, and Sligo Rovers )
OK football in these cities is popular, but Edinburgh is 5 times the size of Galway, Glasgow about 6/7 times. Whereas Rugby may be a distant 2nd in Scotland, its a distant 4th in Connacht.

Success brings in fans, Glasgow and Edinburgh, have both had more success and better teams than Connacht yet Connacht has around same level of support

Weather - Galway not famed for lovely rugby conditions either

Kick off times - Connacht have friday night games as well, but they have are in a far smaller city, and population is more rural with travel more difficult, they should have more problems with Friday games than 2 teams in big Cities.

The points I'm making, is that Connacht has about the same problems as the district sides some worse, and don't have the benifit of being based in a big city, yet bring in roughly equal crowds. That is the biggest problem facing Scottish rugby crowds.

Edinburgh and Glasgow should be getting crowds similar to Scarlets/Cardiff Blues at least and they really have the potentional to surpass them and be in Leinster/Munster attendances. This is what needs readdressed first and foremost.

Now how to do that?

I can tell you all in a nutshell what is wrong with the Rabo, referees. We have such poor refs in our league that it is almost impossible to get any type of intensity, I watched the Scarlets V Edinburgh game on BBC Alba, and the ref was a joke, he was only reffing one side, and when you get inexperienced refs the whole game spirals downwards, there are only about two decent refs in the Rabo, Nigel Owens and Allain Rolland, the rest are just a joke, Pearson, Patterson, Clancy, Fitzgibbon are not good refs at all and usually come across as biased as they are so vulnerable to being lambasted by their own media taking an easier option than having the nuptials to ref properly is the only way they know. Do not get me started on the Italian refs.

Everyone complains about referees. Thats the case whether its the Currie Cup, Top 14 or the Rabo.

Refereeing is bad in the Rabo but thats not the reason that most people are unenthusiastic about it.

red_stag wrote:Everyone complains about referees. Thats the case whether its the Currie Cup, Top 14 or the Rabo.

Refereeing is bad in the Rabo but thats not the reason that most people are unenthusiastic about it.

Stag, I watch as much rugby as I can, I can tell you that without a shadow of a doubt, the Rabo has the poorest standard of referees than any other league or comp, this is a fundamental problem within the Rabo, I am not saying this in jest I am being brutally honest, the amount of games I have watched that a Rabo ref has spoiled is unbelievable, why are we getting situations where refs from the same country as the team are being put in charge ? They might not be biased, but they will always have the situation thrust upon them because of it, I am fed up to the back teeth of always talking about bad reffing in the Rabo, I watched the Aviva on the weekend and the refs were all decent, ok there were some dodgy decisions but on the whole they were good, and they reffed both sides the same, this is a problem for us and us alone, until we sort it we will never get the rivalries we want that will bring the intensity we want.

Dowlais is that the silver bullet? If we get some decent referees is that the Rabo addressing all issues of intensity and attendances.

I agree with you in full about having referees from same country refereeing BTW. Should not be done.

LordDowlais wrote:
why are we getting situations where refs from the same country as the team are being put in charge ? They might not be biased, but ....

How many AP refs are English? How many Top14 ones are French? Do these English and French refs have homes to go to? Do they live in areas that might suggest their bias might be in favour of one side over another?

You could as easily do the 'bias' argument in any league on the planet. Refs will be from somewhere and where they're from could always be assumed to produce involuntary bias.

We must remember too that in any League there are particular fans who constantly view games in terms of ref behaviour.

Watching regularly Top 14, i can tell you referees aren't better there, there are only one or two decent refs and Poite is one of them...

In the Rabo, it's not that bad i would say and generally refs have more empathy for the game, this means they would think twice before red carding someone but people will always moan because X has not been red carded, what can we do about that?

VinceWLB wrote:Watching regularly Top 14, i can tell you referees aren't better there, there are only one or two decent refs and Poite is one of them...

Thats what I would have said.

VinceWLB wrote:Watching regularly Top 14, i can tell you referees aren't better there, there are only one or two decent refs and Poite is one of them...

In the Rabo, it's not that bad i would say and generally refs have more empathy for the game, this means they would think twice before red carding someone but people will always moan because X has not been red carded, what can we do about that?

How many inexperienced refs are there in the Top 14 ? Not as much as the Rabo I can tell you, I also watch a lot of the French league and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the standard of reffing in that league is streets ahead of ours, look, I do not expect a ref not to make blunders here and there, but the refereeing in the Rabo is atrocious, the amount of games I watch and see one team getting "reffed" far more than the other is beyond the joke, I am staggered that you all try and defend the standard of the officials in our league, come on lets take the tinted specs off.

SecretFly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
why are we getting situations where refs from the same country as the team are being put in charge ? They might not be biased, but ....

How many AP refs are English? How many Top14 ones are French? Do these English and French refs have homes to go to? Do they live in areas that might suggest their bias might be in favour of one side over another?

You could as easily do the 'bias' argument in any league on the planet. Refs will be from somewhere and where they're from could always be assumed to produce involuntary bias.

We must remember too that in any League there are particular fans who constantly view games in terms of ref behaviour.

It's a bit different in our league, where you have sides from a different country playing each other, come on even you must see this, I am not saying the refs are biased, but they will always have that accusation thrown at them for being put in these positions, a ref from the same country as the teams playing should not be anywhere near these games even if it to just stop them being put in an awkward situation.

Dowlais,

Who is trying to defend it.

It is bad but its bad everywhere.

You are trying to claim that a lack of intensity and poor attendances are primarily down to having inexperiened referees.

I don't have a problem with the country the ref comes from reffing the game. Is an Irish ref reffing a Province V Region game really that different from a ref from the northeast of England reffing a Sale V London team game?

I would favour that the Unions come together to promote the refs, each Union selects a certain number of top refs these are used for pro 12, and a select number of apprentice refs

the apprentice refs would mostly ref in their domestic league, but would be moved round a bit, ( for example an Italian ref, for all the games he covers in a season in 70% super 10 games, 10% Welsh Prem, 10% Irish league, 10% Scottish league) this way they have experince with all Unions, and the different levels before stepping up to Pro 12, (I would even suggest more time in Welsh prem as its prob the highest level domestic league).

For the Pro 12 refs, a select number would also be sent to ref games in Aviva Prem, top 14, Super XV plus maybe some ITM cupcurrie cup games. A select number of the best of these would be the refs the pro 12 Unions would promote to international games, 6 nations and world cup duty.

LordDowlais wrote:

It's a bit different in our league, where you have sides from a different country playing each other, come on even you must see this, I am not saying the refs are biased, but they will always have that accusation thrown at them for being put in these positions, a ref from the same country as the teams playing should not be anywhere near these games even if it to just stop them being put in an awkward situation.

Lord, Leinster have been bitting and piece-ing all season so far...not once did I blame a ref for the rubbish. I blame my team.

Yes, I actually do see little hints of bias in Pro12 - and I'm being honest here, on a few occasions I observe Irish refs and they're trying desperately to prove they are being even handed and therefore Irish sides can often suffer in the 50/50 that might go against us. I tend to laugh and affectedly give-out. Some of the refs might be a little too officious but I don't really give a ref much thought honestly - win or lose. We win and I'm too happy to care about minor infringements. We lose and I'm much too concerned about players and tactics etc to give the ref much thought. It's an emphasis that some watchers have and some don't.
But I repeat, the potential bias of refs in AP is equal to what might potentially be on display in Pro12. Hell, a ref from one Province might have plenty reason to punish a Provincial side he's not from more than the club or region that province is playing against. Bias works in mysterious ways