Come on Pro 12, sort it out.

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http://www.v2journal.com/come-on-pro-12-sort-it-out.html
This was supposed to be a match report of the Scarlets' defeat of Edinburgh at Murrayfield. However the whole experience caused me to question the very existence of the Rabo Direct Pro 12.

On Saturday night, a Grassmarket pub showed the Clermont v Biaritz top 14 match followed by the Gloucester v Leicester premiership match. These matches were a world apart from the previous night's Pro 12 offering, especially in terms of intensity.

But why should that be so? Wales and Ireland are strong internationally, competing well with England and France. Scotland and Italy are punching above their weight given their limited player resources. Irish provinces are amongst the most successful sides in the ERC.

I can't accept that the lack of intensity relates to the quality of players available, even given the Irish presumption in favour of resting international players. As regional or provincial teams, the squads should be more consistent in terms of strength in depth than all but one or two of the strongest Anglo-French clubs.

There must be a Flat Earth Society type of refusal on the part of the Unions involved to acknowledge the fundamental problem right at the heart of this league. It's as if the league is addicted to mediocrity. We all know that the fist step to tackling an addiction is to recognise that you have a problem.

To be fair, it seems that the regions are trying to push the league. However, no amount of promotion and marketing can save you if the product is not right.

And the product is not right.

I was one of only a couple of thousand people in Murrayfield Friday night. Murrayfield. The same Murrayfield that holds almost 70,000 people when full, yet six nations international tickets are so hard to come by. Where fans travel in their thousands from others of the Six Nations to follow their international team every spring.

There was just no atmosphere. Very little noise. Very little competitive chanting or singing. Late in the second half the Edinburgh faithful were incensed by the refereeing decision that gave Rhys Priestland the chance of a three pointer to win the game and net five league points as opposed to two. It was the first time it felt anything like watching top class rugby. It's significant that it was displeasure at the referee that caused this blip. That is the sort of negative thing that does not inspire potential attendees.

The basic truth is that it seems Edinburgh could keep doing what they are doing for a thousand years they will never fill Murrayfield for a Pro 12 game.

Why? The product does not elicit enough of an emotional response; and its not limited to Edinburgh.

I suspected at the time that hearing Gareth Charles getting all excited and the massaging of what little atmosphere there was by the positioning of the effects microphone would have made this a match that was best watched on TV. If fans prefer the TV to a ticket, that is an insurmountable hill to climb for the league.

It is a cyclical problem. No fans turn up, the play is not inspired, fans are not motivated to attend and so on. This also means that very few numbers of away fans are prepared to make the long journeys involved in every non derby fixture. Only Irish provinces are bucking the trend, but even then that's a position that can't be sustainable.

Then there's the lack of tradition, or let's face it, the grudge element of the old Anglo-Welsh games to tempt away fans to travel.

Often the officiating results in a default position of most teams trying to stop the other side playing rather than trying to play some football themselves as the breakdown becomes a lottery. None of this helps.

Ironically however, the big two may through the ERC negotiations give the Pro 12 a much needed shot in the arm. I fully believe that the current collection of mini leagues within a league determining the ERC qualification of the four unions involved undermines the league. There is not enough of a risk factor in losing games with ERC qualification largely unaffected by results. The play offs have added some much needed interest in the top 6 at the end of the season, an ERC qualification battle would do the same for the bottom six. Anything which makes every game relevant to the future of the team, the coaches and players would boost intensity and the interest of away fans. This would draw more home fans as it creates a buzz.

Pro 12 Unions, your league is broken and yes, you do need to fix it.

LordDowlais wrote:
How many inexperienced refs are there in the Top 14 ? Not as much as the Rabo I can tell you, I also watch a lot of the French league and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the standard of reffing in that league is streets ahead of ours, look, I do not expect a ref not to make blunders here and there, but the refereeing in the Rabo is atrocious, the amount of games I watch and see one team getting "reffed" far more than the other is beyond the joke, I am staggered that you all try and defend the standard of the officials in our league, come on lets take the tinted specs off.

Well, the week just before round 1 of the HEC, refs from the Rabo were in charge of all top 14 fixtures in order to help French sides to adapt to British reffing, because yes French have different way of reffing, take the scrum they will always penalise the team going backwards even if the "dominant" team scrummage with their hand on the floor, French refs are also keen in not letting the game flow.
I'm all for free flowing rugby even if that means not penalising "minor" infringements.

It is a major topic after every game at PYS or the Liberty, but would be whatever. It does however feed into this acceptance of mediocrity which is throttling the league.

To English people. How come the French league escapes your criticism? At the weekend Toulon beat Bayonne 59 - 0. Bayonne sent out their B team and didn't try. It happens all the time in France where the away team surrenders by sending out weakened teams.

profitius wrote:To English people. How come the French league escapes your criticism? At the weekend Toulon beat Bayonne 59 - 0. Bayonne sent out their B team and didn't try. It happens all the time in France where the away team surrenders by sending out weakened teams.

Because our teams are not in the French league. And we're not French.

No? - Couldn't be! France? Like French France? Frogs and cigarettes?

It couldn't happen, I don't believe it. Them lads is gods in my opinion. They'd never throw games.

LordDowlais wrote:
why are we getting situations where refs from the same country as the team are being put in charge ?

Because we had it that they weren't and the reffing was an even bigger problem then, because any match between a Welsh and Irish side was reffed by a Scot and they simply couldn't provide enough top level refs.

Griff wrote:

profitius wrote:To English people. How come the French league escapes your criticism? At the weekend Toulon beat Bayonne 59 - 0. Bayonne sent out their B team and didn't try. It happens all the time in France where the away team surrenders by sending out weakened teams.

Because our teams are not in the French league. And we're not French.

Em... but English sides ain't in the Pro12 League either.

Notch wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
why are we getting situations where refs from the same country as the team are being put in charge ?

Because we had it that they weren't and the reffing was an even bigger problem then, because any match between a Welsh and Irish side was reffed by a Scot and they simply couldn't provide enough top level refs.

so it was decided to give the Scot refs to the Italians and Scots? Good move.

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

profitius wrote:To English people. How come the French league escapes your criticism? At the weekend Toulon beat Bayonne 59 - 0. Bayonne sent out their B team and didn't try. It happens all the time in France where the away team surrenders by sending out weakened teams.

Because our teams are not in the French league. And we're not French.

Em... but English sides ain't in the Pro12 League either.

If we could pick up BBC 2 Francais, and their coverage of Scrum Cinq, then French league performances may be more on the agenda for discussion. I guess it's because it's out of sight and out of mind. Anyone with a Sky box can pick up Pro12 rugby in England. And many like HERSH do, just for a laugh.

HERSH do - and many more of his compatriots don't. But they still do a good synopsis of what they don't see but hear about ....from HERSH

The standard of reffing in the Rabo IS affecting the quality of rugby I am watching, lets forget about biased refs for the moment, lets focus on the top quality refs we have in our league, I would say Allain Rolland and Nigel Owens and that is it, two quality refs is not good enough, and as a result the fact of who is reffing has a result on who I choose to watch. Sometimes I just know in my own mind how a game will pan out just by having a look who the referee is, this is totally unjust in my opinion. For example, if I know George Clancy is reffing a game I will not want to watch it as it will be finicky and stop start, If David Wilkinson is reffing I will not want to watch it either as he is very biased in how he referee a game, if it is one of the new Italians reffing like Guiseppe Vivarini I know I will start moaning at the tele or if I am at the ground going over the same old story with a fellow fan, look these are just my opinions and I am entitled to them, but trust me, I am not alone as I have had these conversations at the grounds/pubs/at work with other people so I know I am not alone.

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

profitius wrote:To English people. How come the French league escapes your criticism? At the weekend Toulon beat Bayonne 59 - 0. Bayonne sent out their B team and didn't try. It happens all the time in France where the away team surrenders by sending out weakened teams.

Because our teams are not in the French league. And we're not French.

Em... but English sides ain't in the Pro12 League either.

So how is this relevant to the OP?

Surely the Rabo should be at the epicentre of the debate rather than than centrifuging the diversive debris.

greytiger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

profitius wrote:To English people. How come the French league escapes your criticism? At the weekend Toulon beat Bayonne 59 - 0. Bayonne sent out their B team and didn't try. It happens all the time in France where the away team surrenders by sending out weakened teams.

Because our teams are not in the French league. And we're not French.

Em... but English sides ain't in the Pro12 League either.

So how is this relevant to the OP?

Surely the Rabo should be at the epicentre of the debate rather than than centrifuging the diversive debris.

Relevancy???????????????????? Let me think....................... Hmmmmm....................... I'm working on it.................... Still thinking.............................. It's illegal to mention Pro12 now unless also mentioning AP, PRL or BT, by order of ERC/IRB!

LordDowlais wrote: I just know in my own mind how a game will pan out just by having a look who the referee is, this is totally unjust in my opinion. For example, if I know George Clancy is reffing a game I will not want to watch it as it will be finicky and stop start, If David Wilkinson is reffing I will not want to watch it either as he is very biased in how he referee a game, if it is one of the new Italians reffing like Guiseppe Vivarini I know I will start moaning at the tele or if I am at the ground going over the same old story with a fellow fan.

I think it says more about you than about the league to be honest. Sounds to me like you've your mind made up. If people have their mind made up in advance its very hard to convince them.

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:
Because our teams are not in the French league. And we're not French.

Em... but English sides ain't in the Pro12 League either.

Well strike me down maybe thats the problem fly! Who wants to watch a bunch of peasants battle it out to be crowned the king of the Celts?? Why that is absurd!

We'll invite Leicester, Tolouse and Bath in to give the league a bit of class and prestege.... now before you panic I propose we still have a prize for the highest placed Celt to keep the Irish mafia happy.

Relegation should be introduced but would only apply to Italians and Connacht.

There you go lads, everyones a winner .

I agree with that deductation of the Leaguesqular complexities, rodders.

Create a Tier 2 for the Italian sides - home and away all season. And give Connacht their own tier.

greytiger wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:

profitius wrote:To English people. How come the French league escapes your criticism? At the weekend Toulon beat Bayonne 59 - 0. Bayonne sent out their B team and didn't try. It happens all the time in France where the away team surrenders by sending out weakened teams.

Because our teams are not in the French league. And we're not French.

Em... but English sides ain't in the Pro12 League either.

So how is this relevant to the OP?

Surely the Rabo should be at the epicentre of the debate rather than than centrifuging the diversive debris.

Very relevant.

The AP gets positive hype. The Top 14 get positive hype. The Rabo gets negative hype. It definitely has an effect on the league. Ask anyone who know anything about advertising and they'd tell you. Anything that goes wrong is blamed on the league. The league gets blamed when things go right like in the HEC wins. It isn't perfect but its miles better than the negative propaganda makes out.

Pro 12 rugby must put more effort and resources into promoting the league. The AP and T14 have big sports channels backing them (look at how sky hype up their sports) while here in Ireland for example we have RTE who are very amateurish in comparison to Sky.

red_stag wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: I just know in my own mind how a game will pan out just by having a look who the referee is, this is totally unjust in my opinion. For example, if I know George Clancy is reffing a game I will not want to watch it as it will be finicky and stop start, If David Wilkinson is reffing I will not want to watch it either as he is very biased in how he referee a game, if it is one of the new Italians reffing like Guiseppe Vivarini I know I will start moaning at the tele or if I am at the ground going over the same old story with a fellow fan.

I think it says more about you than about the league to be honest. Sounds to me like you've your mind made up. If people have their mind made up in advance its very hard to convince them.

Yes, and as you have only decided to pluck out a snippet of what I wrote to strengthen your point, I will point out, that in the same post as you have partially quoted, I finished off by saying it was just my opinion and i am entitled to it, although I am not alone as I have had this conversation with countless others, and the facts are, the poor refereeing is affecting the quality of rugby in our league.

If it were up to me I'd produce a two tier competition with five teams from Scotland and Italy, six from Wales and four from Ireland.
Wales could have the Blues, Dragons, Scarlets, Ospreys, Celtic Warriors and RGC 1404.
Scotland could have Glasgow Warriors, Edinburgh, the Borders and Caledonia Reds.
Ireland could probably sustain the most players but are unlikely to change their system which is working.
Italy could have Zebre, Treviso, Aironi and Praetorians Roma.
Producing two ten team leagues, there could also be a cup competition.

Initially it would be:

Tier one:
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Treviso
Connacht
Ulster
Leinster
Munster
Scarlets
Ospreys
Blues

Tier two:
London Scottish
Borders
Caledonia Reds
Praetorians Roma
Aironi
Zebre
Dragons
RGC 1404
Cetlic Warriors

The Tier one league could sell their TV rights collectively to Sky or ESPN or a big broadcaster and tier two could sell TV rights locally like the current system. They could sell naming rights for each division. The top league would have ten top teams and it would result in teams having to play more games against teams in the same country.

LordDowlais wrote:

red_stag wrote:

LordDowlais wrote: I just know in my own mind how a game will pan out just by having a look who the referee is, this is totally unjust in my opinion. For example, if I know George Clancy is reffing a game I will not want to watch it as it will be finicky and stop start, If David Wilkinson is reffing I will not want to watch it either as he is very biased in how he referee a game, if it is one of the new Italians reffing like Guiseppe Vivarini I know I will start moaning at the tele or if I am at the ground going over the same old story with a fellow fan.

I think it says more about you than about the league to be honest. Sounds to me like you've your mind made up. If people have their mind made up in advance its very hard to convince them.

Yes, and as you have only decided to pluck out a snippet of what I wrote to strengthen your point, I will point out, that in the same post as you have partially quoted, I finished off by saying it was just my opinion and i am entitled to it, although I am not alone as I have had this conversation with countless others, and the facts are, the poor refereeing is affecting the quality of rugby in our league.

I agree that poor refereeing is affecting the quality of rugby in our league. There is nobody who takes issue with that.

Whether I take your quote in full or not it matters not. Basically you've just admitted that you are now unable to accurately judge how referees carry out their business.

You have your mind made up and therefore you can be entitled to your opinion but if you just blindly think a certain way no matter what happens in front of your eyes then you aren't really a fit judge of whether a referee is good or bad.

123456789 wrote:If it were up to me I'd produce a two tier competition with five teams from Scotland and Italy, six from Wales and four from Ireland.
Wales could have the Blues, Dragons, Scarlets, Ospreys, Celtic Warriors and RGC 1404.
Scotland could have Glasgow Warriors, Edinburgh, the Borders and Caledonia Reds.
Ireland could probably sustain the most players but are unlikely to change their system which is working.
Italy could have Zebre, Treviso, Aironi and Praetorians Roma.
Producing two ten team leagues, there could also be a cup competition.

Initially it would be:

Tier one:
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Treviso
Connacht
Ulster
Leinster
Munster
Scarlets
Ospreys
Blues

Tier two:
London Scottish
Borders
Caledonia Reds
Praetorians Roma
Aironi
Zebre
Dragons
RGC 1404
Cetlic Warriors

The Tier one league could sell their TV rights collectively to Sky or ESPN or a big broadcaster and tier two could sell TV rights locally like the current system. They could sell naming rights for each division. The top league would have ten top teams and it would result in teams having to play more games against teams in the same country.

.

Why do Connacht get to go in tier 1 but the Dragons in tier 2?! We consistently finish above them in the league!

Also, I can't see the WRU agreeing a system for one of their teams to drop into a lower tier than it is now (pro 12 all 1 top tier). They'd lose money.

I don't know. A feeling of injustice/being picked on can see punters flooding in.

123456789 wrote:If it were up to me I'd produce a two tier competition with five teams from Scotland and Italy, six from Wales and four from Ireland.
Wales could have the Blues, Dragons, Scarlets, Ospreys, Celtic Warriors and RGC 1404.
Scotland could have Glasgow Warriors, Edinburgh, the Borders and Caledonia Reds.
Ireland could probably sustain the most players but are unlikely to change their system which is working.
Italy could have Zebre, Treviso, Aironi and Praetorians Roma.
Producing two ten team leagues, there could also be a cup competition.

Initially it would be:

Tier one:
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Treviso
Connacht
Ulster
Leinster
Munster
Scarlets
Ospreys
Blues

Tier two:
London Scottish
Borders
Caledonia Reds
Praetorians Roma
Aironi
Zebre
Dragons
RGC 1404
Cetlic Warriors

The Tier one league could sell their TV rights collectively to Sky or ESPN or a big broadcaster and tier two could sell TV rights locally like the current system. They could sell naming rights for each division. The top league would have ten top teams and it would result in teams having to play more games against teams in the same country.

That would water down the quality too much. 3 Irish teams in the top 4 as it is.

Eventually, in the next decade or so there might be a tier 2 involving teams from Holland, Belgium, Germany etc. I'd imagine there would be relegation with 1 team going up and down every season.

I think the branding of the league could be a major issue. I've said this before but the idea of the 'Celtic' identity would really help sell the league.

Obviously, for the most part, the Irish love the whole Celtic heritage thing and here in Wales everything is named after a a)dragon or b)Celtic, everything - bus companies, plumbers and whatever.
Not sure about Scotland but I know back home and here in Wales to be king of the Celts could really help sell the product. Just the same way that Quins take great pride in being English champions.
Now I know the Pro12 use to be the Celtic league but that was when it was taking baby steps, now it is a fully pledged league.

Which brings me to my next point of pushing the league as a whole and just not within the respective country, like the Bacrley Premier League does in England. Simple but effective.

Next to our Italian friends. We need rid of them. They undermine the league by being easy points at home and more or less away. Zebra are just awful. In a country of 60 million people they should be able to grow their own game and league (which I feel would be better for the game in Italy in the long run)

Which also brings me to Connaught V Zebra in the H-Cup. That is not European top flight rugby. So I would be one to say qualification for the H-Cup based on standings in the league. Would make her a little more intense.

The Rabo Direct Celtic League. Consisting of the 10 best Celtic provinces and regions. All fighting to be champions of the Celtic nations and the privilege to play in Europe.

There are many other factors such as the Club-V-Region in Wales but this is an overall approach to the league.
Also I should say that I like 123456789 idea, even though I don't how possible it would ever be.

Tier two:
London Scottish

I don't know. Poor old London Scottish. The minute they get themselves back on their feet after being shamefully treated by London Irish, a whole other hoard of Celtic abusers are eyeing them up as potential grooming targets.

Next stop Rhydychen.

greytiger wrote:

Tier two:
London Scottish

I don't know. Poor old London Scottish. The minute they get themselves back on their feet after being shamefully treated by London Irish, a whole other hoard of Celtic abusers are eyeing them up as potential grooming targets.

Next stop Rhydychen.

Was dragged by one of my scots mate to go see LS vs. Pirates at Richmond not too long ago and it was a great afternoon out! Trot around the park, enterntainment in the form of bouncy things for the kids, generic beer/lager tents for the over grown kids, and ended up bantering with some Irish lads at the Trip Crown afterwards. To cap it all off i was a nail biting finish to a game as well. Loved it.

Anyways .... back on topic

Personally I don't think there wil ever be a 2 division Pro 12 league. Its just fantasy.

I would much rather the ERC and IRB try to promote a contential League, with only 2/3 teams from each of Germany/Romania/Spain promote this let it grow and eventually hopefully the Italian sides leave the Pro 12 and join this with 4/5/6 teams. (thereby making room for additional Scottish and Welsh team in pro 12 in time).

Promote the Regional Rugby Championship
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regional_Rugby_Championship

Also try to form an East European League mixing Rugby Nordic Cup
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_Nordic_Cup
teams into regional teams, and playing agaisnt Russian and Georgia (difficult games) regional sides.

What a bundle of laughs you are.

Kingshu wrote:Personally I don't think there wil ever be a 2 division Pro 12 league. Its just fantasy.

I would much rather the ERC and IRB try to promote a contential League, with only 2/3 teams from each of Germany/Romania/Spain promote this let it grow and eventually hopefully the Italian sides leave the Pro 12 and join this with 4/5/6 teams. (thereby making room for additional Scottish and Welsh team in pro 12 in time).

Theres a new league set up involving teams from Germany, Holland and Belgium. If they were to come into a Rabo divison 2 (along with a few Spanish and Portugese teams) there would be the major carrot of getting promoted for the teams involved and it would help promote the game in those countries. Those countries are also closer than Italy.

I don't think some of the Celtic/Italians would agree to it but it would be a possibility in the future.

Parish Pumpism is a scourge.

We don't want playing Italian teams because they are no good and far away and there is no Derbiness to the games.
We don't like playing teams from the other 'home' nations either, if truth be told, because fans don't get into it if it's not a local Derby, innit.
We want a league with more Derbies, yeah - so that we can tear strips off each other in a box'em'up passionate game of little skill but lots of mean bloodedness and psychopathic fans screaming for vengence. That's what we want - more of us playing each other and less of them others - the outsiders.

We all have a lovely passionate Celtic league with lots of blood, sweat, spittle, venom, and ye olde passion - and we get whipped and laughed at by the big European leagues when we go try to be all passionate with them, playing our nonsense pitchfork stuff.

Grand - let's lose the Italians and orchestrate more Derbies. Who needs a European Element to a European league.

There definitely room for 6 matches in one stadium. Making a whole day of it:

Can you imagine:

- Dragons v Munster
- Scarlets v Treviso
- Zebre v Ospreys
- Connacht v Glasgow
- Edinburgh v Leinster
- Cardiff v Ulster

And stage it in one stadium spread over two days.

Friday night or Sunday can have two games (in a smaller stadium) and four games on offer on the Saturday (in the big stadium)

One ticket buys you the whole lot and every year it can be on in a different country.

red_stag wrote:There definitely room for 6 matches in one stadium. Making a whole day of it:

Can you imagine:

- Dragons v Munster
- Scarlets v Treviso
- Zebre v Ospreys
- Connacht v Glasgow
- Edinburgh v Leinster
- Cardiff v Ulster

And stage it in one stadium spread over two days.

Friday night or Sunday can have two games (in a smaller stadium) and four games on offer on the Saturday (in the big stadium)

One ticket buys you the whole lot and every year it can be on in a different country.

Travel organiser hat on, Stag?

For all tour enquiries please email makingmoney@redstag.com



Package price will cost you as little as one arm and one leg!!

red_stag wrote:For all tour enquiries please email makingmoney@redstag.com



Package price will cost you as little as one arm and one leg!!

That email address automatically redirected me to yourfeicinblagginme@olearyaddedsecretextras.com

greytiger wrote:

red_stag wrote:For all tour enquiries please email makingmoney@redstag.com



Package price will cost you as little as one arm and one leg!!

That email address automatically redirected me to yourfeicinblagginme@olearyaddedsecretextras.com

red_stag wrote:There definitely room for 6 matches in one stadium. Making a whole day of it:

Can you imagine:

- Dragons v Munster
- Scarlets v Treviso
- Zebre v Ospreys
- Connacht v Glasgow
- Edinburgh v Leinster
- Cardiff v Ulster

And stage it in one stadium spread over two days.

Friday night or Sunday can have two games (in a smaller stadium) and four games on offer on the Saturday (in the big stadium)

One ticket buys you the whole lot and every year it can be on in a different country.

There would be some pretty messy fans watching that 4th game on the Saturday,

SecretFly wrote:

red_stag wrote:There definitely room for 6 matches in one stadium. Making a whole day of it:

Can you imagine:

- Dragons v Munster
- Scarlets v Treviso
- Zebre v Ospreys
- Connacht v Glasgow
- Edinburgh v Leinster
- Cardiff v Ulster

And stage it in one stadium spread over two days.

Friday night or Sunday can have two games (in a smaller stadium) and four games on offer on the Saturday (in the big stadium)

One ticket buys you the whole lot and every year it can be on in a different country.

Travel organiser hat on, Stag?

While in theory it sounds grand, but would so many teams and season ticket holders be happy to give up home advantage? and a home game to travel to a big stadium?

Personally for the provinces I'd like that the start of the season friendlies reduced from 3 to 2, and the the 3rd game we have a double header inter provincial game at NLR, say Munster V Connacht followed by Leinser V Ulster. Later in the season the two winners would play for the Inter Pro cup (maybe other two play for 3rd spot?). It would kick start the season, with a less than friendly friendly, to harden teams for the league, and create a bit of buzz that season is starting.

Regions could do the same, Scotish/Italians organise something similar between the two.

Think on in that maybe the Italians can invite the two closest French sides to play them (remember its instead of a friendly) and later have a final, try to keep same French teams each year to build rivilary) [Pays d'Aix RC and Toulon]

Same goes to Scotland, inviting Leeds and Newcastle?

JayMaster3000 wrote:I think the branding of the league could be a major issue. I've said this before but the idea of the 'Celtic' identity would really help sell the league.

Obviously, for the most part, the Irish love the whole Celtic heritage thing and here in Wales everything is named after a a)dragon or b)Celtic, everything - bus companies, plumbers and whatever.
Not sure about Scotland but I know back home and here in Wales to be king of the Celts could really help sell the product. Just the same way that Quins take great pride in being English champions.
Now I know the Pro12 use to be the Celtic league but that was when it was taking baby steps, now it is a fully pledged league.

Which brings me to my next point of pushing the league as a whole and just not within the respective country, like the Bacrley Premier League does in England. Simple but effective.

Next to our Italian friends. We need rid of them. They undermine the league by being easy points at home and more or less away. Zebra are just awful. In a country of 60 million people they should be able to grow their own game and league (which I feel would be better for the game in Italy in the long run)

Which also brings me to Connaught V Zebra in the H-Cup. That is not European top flight rugby. So I would be one to say qualification for the H-Cup based on standings in the league. Would make her a little more intense.

The Rabo Direct Celtic League. Consisting of the 10 best Celtic provinces and regions. All fighting to be champions of the Celtic nations and the privilege to play in Europe.

Agree with most of this. Took family to a game and tried to explain what the league is...very confused look back when I told them the Italians were in it.

Sorry Italians... but removing you would mean easier marketing (back to Celtic League), no s**t Italian refs, no boring boshing defensive rugby.

We need to help transition them into an environment where they can prosper. Would they not fit better in the French league? Easier to sell to their public as they're neighbouring countries. More geographically sensible. French clubs wouldn't want them?!

Not sure I agree with a B league. We just need to improve our own national game. Currie Cup or ITM Cup style comps.

Pot Hale wrote:Because people don't have faith in the league and the public appeal of the Pro 12, the brand and what it stands for. It's not English and it's not French. It ain't Irish, Welsh, Scottish or Italian either. It's the Celtic-League-and-oh-yeah-the-Italians. It's the Rabo/Rabbo/Rabies League. It's the RP12. The Rabo 12. The Pro Direct 12.

I agree with Pot Hale - what is it called. A stupid name does not lend it self to good marketing. The Magners or Celtic league was good as the public knew what it was.

I have a suggestion. Though I really doubt all the stakeholders would go for it, as it involves a complete restructure of European rugby

1) Merge the Celtic Pro12 teams, the AP, and a couple of English Championship sides into a "British and Irish League" with 24 teams. Abolish relegation, but allow a process every 3 seasons or so where say a new Welsh/Scottish region or an English club could apply to join based on meeting proper playing and off-field criteria. You play a 23-round regular season (1 more than currently) with home/away vs each team alternating each years (so Ospreys vs Leicester is in Swansea even numbered years and Leicester in odd say). The Welsh and Scottish sides could market the cross-border games with English teams to parochial fans, while the PRL would love dropping relegation.
1a) Play an B & I Cup development comp in the international windows
2) Merge the Italian teams into an expanded Top 14 - say Top 16 or 18.
3) Have a 16 team HEC with 4 pools of 4, featuring the defending champion, the Amlin winner plus 8 from the B&I and 6 from France/Italy - base it on league performance but guarantee 1 team per nation. That frees up 2 weeks of pool rounds for the new leagues.
4) include the next 16 ranked teams in an Amlin comp - 8 from B&I, 7 from F&I plus the 3rd tier winner. The remaining 8-10 teams drop down to a 3rd tier comp with teams from other European nations.

Italians are in the 6 nations so i can't see how they souldn't be in a top flight club competition.

Treviso are now very competitive and adds a forward oriented aspect to the league.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:I have a suggestion. Though I really doubt all the stakeholders would go for it, as it involves a complete restructure of European rugby

1) Merge the Celtic Pro12 teams, the AP, and a couple of English Championship sides into a "British and Irish League" with 24 teams. Abolish relegation, but allow a process every 3 seasons or so where say a new Welsh/Scottish region or an English club could apply to join based on meeting proper playing and off-field criteria. You play a 23-round regular season (1 more than currently) with home/away vs each team alternating each years (so Ospreys vs Leicester is in Swansea even numbered years and Leicester in odd say). The Welsh and Scottish sides could market the cross-border games with English teams to parochial fans, while the PRL would love dropping relegation.
1a) Play an B & I Cup development comp in the international windows
2) Merge the Italian teams into an expanded Top 14 - say Top 16 or 18.
3) Have a 16 team HEC with 4 pools of 4, featuring the defending champion, the Amlin winner plus 8 from the B&I and 6 from France/Italy - base it on league performance but guarantee 1 team per nation. That frees up 2 weeks of pool rounds for the new leagues.
4) include the next 16 ranked teams in an Amlin comp - 8 from B&I, 7 from F&I plus the 3rd tier winner. The remaining 8-10 teams drop down to a 3rd tier comp with teams from other European nations.

Stumbling block one.

What reason would England and France have to franchise or lock down their leagues?

greytiger wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:I have a suggestion. Though I really doubt all the stakeholders would go for it, as it involves a complete restructure of European rugby

1) Merge the Celtic Pro12 teams, the AP, and a couple of English Championship sides into a "British and Irish League" with 24 teams. Abolish relegation, but allow a process every 3 seasons or so where say a new Welsh/Scottish region or an English club could apply to join based on meeting proper playing and off-field criteria. You play a 23-round regular season (1 more than currently) with home/away vs each team alternating each years (so Ospreys vs Leicester is in Swansea even numbered years and Leicester in odd say). The Welsh and Scottish sides could market the cross-border games with English teams to parochial fans, while the PRL would love dropping relegation.
1a) Play an B & I Cup development comp in the international windows
2) Merge the Italian teams into an expanded Top 14 - say Top 16 or 18.
3) Have a 16 team HEC with 4 pools of 4, featuring the defending champion, the Amlin winner plus 8 from the B&I and 6 from France/Italy - base it on league performance but guarantee 1 team per nation. That frees up 2 weeks of pool rounds for the new leagues.
4) include the next 16 ranked teams in an Amlin comp - 8 from B&I, 7 from F&I plus the 3rd tier winner. The remaining 8-10 teams drop down to a 3rd tier comp with teams from other European nations.

Stumbling block one.

What reason would England and France have to franchise or lock down their leagues?

I did say I doubted it would get off the ground. But the PRC and French equivalent would love the lock-down - so it then becomes a case of getting RFU and FRU on board. And if they could be convinced that it would help player standards across the board, and hence their international competitiveness with the SH ...

Stumbling Block two. Why should English AP sides (and a few English championship sides!!!) be allowed into Pro12?

Meaning, it was only half a decade or so ago when your proposal would be laughed out of town...by the English. Now, we should all play together as best mates in a League?
Some of us might need that format...some of us don't.

SecretFly wrote:Stumbling Block two. Why should English AP sides (and a few English championship sides!!!) be allowed into Pro12?

Meaning, it was only half a decade or so ago when your proposal would be laughed out of town...by the English. Now, we should all play together as best mates in a League?
Some of us might need that format...some of us don't.

True. The Irish should be pretty happy with their current set up.

There'd probably be benefits for the Welsh and Scots though.

Indeed.

But where would cash guarantees come from?
Ireland and only Ireland could underwrite any.

Most likely the Rabo edifice would collapse before the FrAnglo house of cards.

Cash isn't always the only answer though. Oodles of cash in Premiership Football - look at the results. The Monster Raving Loony League!
"Hey you! Foul!"
"Who you calling 'you'? You're racist!"

Cash... it kinda goes to the head.

That's what you Doctor said eh Fly?

If he said all that to me, Glas ..then it's him that needs the pills!!! I only asked him how much a flu jab would cost.

"Yeah, doc", I whispered, as I tried to find the door handle without turning my back on him, "You know what... I think I'll just try some vitamin C and see how that goes for me this *cough!* season.... yeah, doc...you sit there, I'll let myself out"

1st I think that Treviso and also Aroini/Zebra have added to you needing a strong pack and has toughened up the league and helped us to do better. We are to quick to say out with the Italians when they have paid enough to join and are getting stronger. How many teams this year have lost or almost lost to Treviso. They bring more then Connacht, Dragons and Edinbrugh

2nd The league does need to be advertised more. There needs to be more showing of non national teams by the broadcastors. Why can't we have a weekly show made up of a panel with someone from each nation onit. I love watching all the teams and at time will watch two games at a time on Friday night.

As stag says we need to let the format settle a little. I would like to see two cups going around for teams that win.
for example you have the two finalists play hold a cup at the start of the year. If you beat them you get the cup till you loose. If a team holds both cups and they loose they only loose one cup. You wouldn't do it just for teams of the same nation as we don't have a problem with derby games.