Come on Pro 12, sort it out.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.v2journal.com/come-on-pro-12-sort-it-out.html
This was supposed to be a match report of the Scarlets' defeat of Edinburgh at Murrayfield. However the whole experience caused me to question the very existence of the Rabo Direct Pro 12.

On Saturday night, a Grassmarket pub showed the Clermont v Biaritz top 14 match followed by the Gloucester v Leicester premiership match. These matches were a world apart from the previous night's Pro 12 offering, especially in terms of intensity.

But why should that be so? Wales and Ireland are strong internationally, competing well with England and France. Scotland and Italy are punching above their weight given their limited player resources. Irish provinces are amongst the most successful sides in the ERC.

I can't accept that the lack of intensity relates to the quality of players available, even given the Irish presumption in favour of resting international players. As regional or provincial teams, the squads should be more consistent in terms of strength in depth than all but one or two of the strongest Anglo-French clubs.

There must be a Flat Earth Society type of refusal on the part of the Unions involved to acknowledge the fundamental problem right at the heart of this league. It's as if the league is addicted to mediocrity. We all know that the fist step to tackling an addiction is to recognise that you have a problem.

To be fair, it seems that the regions are trying to push the league. However, no amount of promotion and marketing can save you if the product is not right.

And the product is not right.

I was one of only a couple of thousand people in Murrayfield Friday night. Murrayfield. The same Murrayfield that holds almost 70,000 people when full, yet six nations international tickets are so hard to come by. Where fans travel in their thousands from others of the Six Nations to follow their international team every spring.

There was just no atmosphere. Very little noise. Very little competitive chanting or singing. Late in the second half the Edinburgh faithful were incensed by the refereeing decision that gave Rhys Priestland the chance of a three pointer to win the game and net five league points as opposed to two. It was the first time it felt anything like watching top class rugby. It's significant that it was displeasure at the referee that caused this blip. That is the sort of negative thing that does not inspire potential attendees.

The basic truth is that it seems Edinburgh could keep doing what they are doing for a thousand years they will never fill Murrayfield for a Pro 12 game.

Why? The product does not elicit enough of an emotional response; and its not limited to Edinburgh.

I suspected at the time that hearing Gareth Charles getting all excited and the massaging of what little atmosphere there was by the positioning of the effects microphone would have made this a match that was best watched on TV. If fans prefer the TV to a ticket, that is an insurmountable hill to climb for the league.

It is a cyclical problem. No fans turn up, the play is not inspired, fans are not motivated to attend and so on. This also means that very few numbers of away fans are prepared to make the long journeys involved in every non derby fixture. Only Irish provinces are bucking the trend, but even then that's a position that can't be sustainable.

Then there's the lack of tradition, or let's face it, the grudge element of the old Anglo-Welsh games to tempt away fans to travel.

Often the officiating results in a default position of most teams trying to stop the other side playing rather than trying to play some football themselves as the breakdown becomes a lottery. None of this helps.

Ironically however, the big two may through the ERC negotiations give the Pro 12 a much needed shot in the arm. I fully believe that the current collection of mini leagues within a league determining the ERC qualification of the four unions involved undermines the league. There is not enough of a risk factor in losing games with ERC qualification largely unaffected by results. The play offs have added some much needed interest in the top 6 at the end of the season, an ERC qualification battle would do the same for the bottom six. Anything which makes every game relevant to the future of the team, the coaches and players would boost intensity and the interest of away fans. This would draw more home fans as it creates a buzz.

Pro 12 Unions, your league is broken and yes, you do need to fix it.

Brendan wrote:1st I think that Treviso and also Aroini/Zebra have added to you needing a strong pack and has toughened up the league and helped us to do better. We are to quick to say out with the Italians when they have paid enough to join and are getting stronger. How many teams this year have lost or almost lost to Treviso. They bring more then Connacht, Dragons and Edinbrugh

2nd The league does need to be advertised more. There needs to be more showing of non national teams by the broadcastors. Why can't we have a weekly show made up of a panel with someone from each nation onit. I love watching all the teams and at time will watch two games at a time on Friday night.

As stag says we need to let the format settle a little. I would like to see two cups going around for teams that win.
for example you have the two finalists play hold a cup at the start of the year. If you beat them you get the cup till you loose. If a team holds both cups and they loose they only loose one cup. You wouldn't do it just for teams of the same nation as we don't have a problem with derby games.

Being from Munster you enjoy their type of rugby I prefer paint drying to that style

cp10 wrote:Being from Munster you enjoy their type of rugby I prefer paint drying to that style

A forwards orientated game has to be a part of any league. If Oz and NZ didn't have SA they loose some bit in the pack.

The Rabo was heading in a bit of a backs orientated game and the italian's have helped to keep it balanced.

Yeah, great.

Brendan you mean like a est team in world belt thing, they sometimes do it in boxing and football after world cups but its imaginary.

Like first team to beat Leinster this year could call themselves the unofficial best team in the world (Scarlets) and leinster hand over a cup to winners then Ospreys won it from Scarlets hand on sorry Leinster shouldn't start with it as it should only be for League games (no friendies abd no Europe)

Ospreys started with the King of the Kelts Cup, Terviso won it of them and after game Ospreys while still league Champions no longer hold the King Of the Kelts cup, Terviso do, Terviso lost it to Munster, and Munster handed it over to Ulster who are the Current King Of The Kelts.

So Edinburgh are playing next to possible be King of the Kelts...addingf a little for the fans for the game.

PS I know Celts isn't spelt Kelts, but KOK cup may go down with fans, also away that Celts/Kelts leaves Italians out, even though they held on to it for a while this year.

I like it.

I think it would add a bit of spiece and also who has it for the longest time.

Ulster could go on a bit of a run but at the same time they could lose it in the next game.

I think two would be good as it would have unification matches that could be billed as a big thing. I also think in one off games most teams would fancy their chances.

Don't like the idea of two, to be honest, one representing the unofficial league champions would be a bit of fun, and holding on to it for a time may give the smaller teams sometime to cheer about.

Two would dilute it.

Would be nice if Captain of losing team handed it over to captain of winning team straight after the game, simple hand shake and clap each other off as usual.

You guys are talking about a Celtic Ranfurly Shield. Biggest thing in New Zealand rugby, and the exact format that your talking about. Would be nice to see, or perhaps the reintroduction of the Inter-pro, just a shield at the end of the season.
Could heat things up in the league and extra spice to the derbies.

As for the Italians they need to go. I understand that Treviso are good but not to the quality of ever pushing to win the league, lets be honest. U say about their forward pack and the impact they have had on the league. Surly their pack has not made other teams front up as much as Munster, Ulster or even the Ospreys.

A country of 60 million people and only a very small section of the population can actually watch European rugby. The 30 million euros they spent to get into the Celtic league could have been invested into a ten team Italian league with better training, advertising and superior import players. Whose knows if they had done this the current H-Cup argument could have involved the Top 14, Aviva Premiership, Celtic Rugby and the Campionato Nazionale di Eccellenza.

Si.

I have to agree with JayMaster here. Not on the point about them needing to go. I'm more than happy for them to stay. As long as the finances allow the travel, for me the more our players get used to playing abroad the better in terms of preparing them for HC/AC and Internationals.

Where I do agree is on the scrummaging front. Munster, Ospreys at full strength, Leinster more recently and increasingly Ulster (John Afoa is immense) offer more of a scrummaging show than the Italians. Their national team may be based around it due to a lack of alternative tactics, but at club level they're not that strong. The Dragons, for example, have got a woeful scrum yet we even had the nudge on a few times against Zebre! Unheard of! I can't remember Treviso pushing us around that much either.

IMO keep them in, but not for their forward power as that's not as good as people might think.

Good points lads. Like the idea of the Interpro shield.

In terms of the Italians... they don't bring a lot to the league and logistically they don't fit the bill. However sometimes you have to take a longer term view on things. I don't know on that one.

Personally I'd rather have another Welsh and Scottish side in there instead but that won't happen any time soon....

Bredan looked into it more and a Celtic Ranfurly Shield seams to be a great Idea, Just between all the sides in the Pro 12.

It can only be defended in home games. Challenges do not apply to away games, or play offs.

So Ospreys started this season with it, and lost it to Ulster.

To the Italians, I like them, Terviso are good enough now to be in any of the top leagues, Zebre will come along, (its a pity it changed from Aironi as it takes a few years for a new team to bed in, and we have to start again).

But if the FIR are preparded to get behind them, Terviso could become play off contenders shortly, I am sure they never speant 30 million euros to get into Celtic league, because if they did it would be a 3 million euro boost to every team! No they had to pay an amount for the other teams additional travel.

Eventually I see them wanting to enter top 14 and be replaced by a Welsh and Scottish side.

But there is no way the top 14 will let them enter especially as they could lose H-cup places to them.

Like the idea of the Interpro shield.

At least that approach would be honest, in that it would be a private Irish battle, however would kill of any idea that this is an actual league.

However sometimes you have to take a longer term view on things.

Why? Why always us? We saved Ireland and Scotland and now have to set Italy up?

Development my harse, give me decent rugby!

Glas a du wrote:Why? Why always us? We saved Ireland and Scotland

Since the Italians joined the league we are starting to see a few tasty italian backs coming on the sceen.

Zebre are still a work in progress but Treviso are the biggest club in the league (as they are the only club as far as I know) and I am sure they have a nice size playing budget.

I don't think I want the italians to leave the league but would much rather see an NFL sytlye tournament. I would allow us celts to have a bigger aduience and thus get more money. Only having 15m people of which only 20-30% watch rugby is never going to be sustainable beyond the existing teams maybe with a struggling second tier. Look at Portugal and the Netherlands in Soccer to see how well it works with the bigger leagues and bigger potential views.

being real the only place the league will grow in the next five years in at most one team from the Celts (north wales) but in five years I would be expecting Italy to be getting there two extra teams ready.

The Rabo is the best format of any of the euro leaguages and possibly the world.

Reasons
#1 More internationals and the potential to have more

#2 International rivalry for teams of a simillar standard

#3 Controlled by the Unions and not private investors

#4 A big enough geographical area but not so big as to stunt or limit growth

#5 The Potential to turn into a full Euro league and be the boss of European affairs. (As the IRB have to ratify more contries being added it will be done by small and simple means, a-create a second division with less teams so Spain, Portugal, Germany, Benelux etc so as to grow the game there, b- as the game grows the IRB/Eng/Fra can't break up the league once they have oked teams to join, c- ask the IRB/ERC for money as they start off the second tier as they will develop euro rugby and not force the ERC to do it)

#6 We are Regions/Francishes so we can add teams for countries as they get stonger

I'm sure there are more but we are and can be the euro league that everyone wants and we can leave the ERC worry about the 6 top euro nations.

I just want to point out that every single person that posted after the following idea is an imbecile.

Kingshu wrote:PS I know Celts isn't spelt Kelts, but KOK cup may go down with fans, also away that Celts/Kelts leaves Italians out, even though they held on to it for a while this year.

I like it.

Are you suggesting a cup called KOK is going to improve the League? KOK? You want a cup called KOK? With fans going down on it?

Also, Kingshu likes KOK. Thats all that needs to be said. Am I the only person reading this?

#7 yes, but won't happen until everybody involved makes it so, which they won't do with the amateurish set up in place

Brendan wrote:The Rabo is the best format of any of the euro leaguages and possibly the world.

Reasons
#1 More internationals and the potential to have more

#2 International rivalry for teams of a simillar standard

#3 Controlled by the Unions and not private investors

#4 A big enough geographical area but not so big as to stunt or limit growth

#5 The Potential to turn into a full Euro league and be the boss of European affairs. (As the IRB have to ratify more contries being added it will be done by small and simple means, a-create a second division with less teams so Spain, Portugal, Germany, Benelux etc so as to grow the game there, b- as the game grows the IRB/Eng/Fra can't break up the league once they have oked teams to join, c- ask the IRB/ERC for money as they start off the second tier as they will develop euro rugby and not force the ERC to do it)

#6 We are Regions/Francishes so we can add teams for countries as they get stonger

I'm sure there are more but we are and can be the euro league that everyone wants and we can leave the ERC worry about the 6 top euro nations.

That reads like an American TV evangelist preaching from a Wurlitzer pulpit condemning Darwin and the forces of evil.

All you need to do now is to convert the masses and persuade the them to get to their credit cards out.

Hallelujah!

Glas a du wrote:Development my harse, give me decent rugby!

Grand so, go back and have a word with your lazy arse, big time charlie, prima donna players. Tell them to stop seeing their regions as stepping stones for wales and/or a shop window to get a move to France (as well as shining up their grandslam medals and sizing up their Lions tracksuits) and start playing with a bit of pride and commitment and give the fans something to cheer and support.

Spread the word round Wales that the amateur era is over. Wales simply can't sustain enough professional sides to have a self sustaining financially viable domestic league which will produce a level of rugby that will allow Welsh teams to be competitive in Europe or that will be able to keep the top Welsh players in the Country. Players will leave, the standard will decline and the national side will suffer as a result.

Regions are they way forward so organise a urine up with your nearest local village/town, bury the hatchet and move forward.

Decent rugby would be nice indeed, rather than watching GS winning. Lions calibre players like Warburton, Faletau, Roberts etc. doddle around the place like rank amateurs every weekend and the listening to some Welsh fans blame the referee/Irish mafia/WRU/Rabo league/Tom Court and feic knows who else for the fact that their teams aren't pulling in crowds or doing as well in Europe and Rabo as they should be.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I just want to point out that every single person that posted after the following idea is an imbecile.

Kingshu wrote:PS I know Celts isn't spelt Kelts, but KOK cup may go down with fans, also away that Celts/Kelts leaves Italians out, even though they held on to it for a while this year.

I like it.

Are you suggesting a cup called KOK is going to improve the League? KOK? You want a cup called KOK? With fans going down on it?

Also, Kingshu likes KOK. Thats all that needs to be said. Am I the only person reading this?

Yep that was the point, don't you like KOK? maybe you would if you tried?

or you could have KKK (King of Kelts Kup) instead?

Now everyone will like the KKK.

Glas a du wrote:#7 yes, but won't happen until everybody involved makes it so, which they won't do with the amateurish set up in place

With all the professionals and upper social people in Rugby I can't understand why the Rabo can't be run by a board of directors that are actively looking to grow the business. We need the Rabo run like a business with goals that they must deliver.

One of the things holding back the league is that it is up to each union to promote the league in their area.

If the unions focused on teams as that is there problem and let one body focus on the league in the countries and also outside. We could sell a hightlights package to sky etc.

Brendan wrote:
One of the things holding back the league is that it is up to each union to promote the league in their area.

amen brother Brendan.....

rodders wrote:

Brendan wrote:
One of the things holding back the league is that it is up to each union to promote the league in their area.

amen brother Brendan.....

Morons. Don't you understand. Even though the Welsh clubs are failing in the league it is actually the league that is failing. That way the WRU and the regions are absolved from being amateurly run in a professional age. Why tackle an issue when you can pass the buck?

rodders wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Development my harse, give me decent rugby!

Grand so, go back and have a word with your lazy arse, big time charlie, prima donna players. Tell them to stop seeing their regions as stepping stones for wales and/or a shop window to get a move to France (as well as shining up their grandslam medals and sizing up their Lions tracksuits) and start playing with a bit of pride and commitment and give the fans something to cheer and support.

Spread the word round Wales that the amateur era is over. Wales simply can't sustain enough professional sides to have a self sustaining financially viable domestic league which will produce a level of rugby that will allow Welsh teams to be competitive in Europe or that will be able to keep the top Welsh players in the Country. Players will leave, the standard will decline and the national side will suffer as a result.

Regions are they way forward so organise a urine up with your nearest local village/town, bury the hatchet and move forward.

Decent rugby would be nice indeed, rather than watching GS winning. Lions calibre players like Warburton, Faletau, Roberts etc. doddle around the place like rank amateurs every weekend and the listening to some Welsh fans blame the referee/Irish mafia/WRU/Rabo league/Tom Court and feic knows who else for the fact that their teams aren't pulling in crowds or doing as well in Europe and Rabo as they should be.

Now that's tellin' 'em!

But I'm afraid it also adds you to the list, rodders. Referees/Irish mafia/Rodders/WRU/Tom Court/Italians/Cardiff take-aways and Rabo.

We need the Rabo run like a business with goals that they must deliver.

Now you're talking!

One of the things holding back the league is that it is up to each union to promote the league in their area.

Well, erm yes, that and other things. You can't "promote" a turd though.

Rodders, OK, I'll do that if you persuade the IRFU to cut the apron strings, let the Provinces decide who gets to play, and pluck up enough courage to realise that you won't be "giving away" ERC places as you'll be able to obtain them by league placing i.e. winning your games.

rodders wrote:

Glas a du wrote:Development my harse, give me decent rugby!

Grand so, go back and have a word with your lazy arse, big time charlie, prima donna players. Tell them to stop seeing their regions as stepping stones for wales and/or a shop window to get a move to France (as well as shining up their grandslam medals and sizing up their Lions tracksuits) and start playing with a bit of pride and commitment and give the fans something to cheer and support.

Spread the word round Wales that the amateur era is over. Wales simply can't sustain enough professional sides to have a self sustaining financially viable domestic league which will produce a level of rugby that will allow Welsh teams to be competitive in Europe or that will be able to keep the top Welsh players in the Country. Players will leave, the standard will decline and the national side will suffer as a result.

Regions are they way forward so organise a urine up with your nearest local village/town, bury the hatchet and move forward.

Decent rugby would be nice indeed, rather than watching GS winning. Lions calibre players like Warburton, Faletau, Roberts etc. doddle around the place like rank amateurs every weekend and the listening to some Welsh fans blame the referee/Irish mafia/WRU/Rabo league/Tom Court and feic knows who else for the fact that their teams aren't pulling in crowds or doing as well in Europe and Rabo as they should be.

Those are some fine words. Problem we have in Wales is that fine words have been spoken for the last 10 years, and despite all the talking the structure of the game here is as shambolic as it was when the regions were dreamt up.

We need someone to take the initiative and lead us forward. Some sort of plan would be nice.

The WRU are the only ones in a position to do this. We await their inspirational actions...

Glas a du wrote:

Rodders, OK, I'll do that if you persuade the IRFU to cut the apron strings, let the Provinces decide who gets to play, and pluck up enough courage to realise that you won't be "giving away" ERC places as you'll be able to obtain them by league placing i.e. winning your games.

Glas, we're already doing that... doing it the IRFU way. Why? Because if you don't need to put all your stars into every game in the League then only a fool would do it, given that when you get your lovely ERC places (that everyone wants) you still have to make the ERC places count.

Turning up for HEC and having a few grand old days out in England or France or Italy isn't the reason for wanting the places. We want to win. Better having your best players in a tougher environment than any that exists in any European league, than to run them to a stand-still notching up 60, 70 or 80 point victories over teams that either can't - OR WON'T - meet you equally in battle.

Why can Irish sides cruise with young guns in Pro12? Because of the opposition - rules won't change that. The opposition either can't or chooses not to engage in battle. That's a player and coaching issue - and a touch of International ego. "Look, guys, you know we could beat you if we really tried - but we just don't like regionalism and are more passionate about keeping ourselves in good nick for the real man's work at International. If you want to see what we're really made of, tune in and enjoy "
If players and a team don't want to win a League, then that's their problem. Changing the rules won't change the target - there is a title to be won. That's the target - that's the goal - honest sides chase it. Chase it and force Irish sides to use their slick HEC players.

Casartelli,

Why is anyone waiting for anything?

Just go out and watch rugby matches. Support the team.

What are you waiting for?

Waiting we will be then.

This is the problem though. People can't see beyond narrow national self interest. If we are pooling our fortunes domestically then let's pool them. Lets make this a supranational league not an international one. Lets rise above the nationality of the refs and get the best available to us. Lets not have any internal structures which are divisive (multiple qualification criteria, multiple small TV deals, much as I'm a fan of Celtic languages this is not the medium to save them) lets go forward as one league. Merit is all, results are all. Play offs, yes, but ERC qualification on league placing also as that is the only way to ensure that this is a credible league. If we say no to that because its what the big boys want us to do (hence we do the opposite) then we are playing into their hands. The last thing they actually want is a third powerhouse league on their doorsteps draining their TV deals. It will take balls and a jump into the dark, but lets do it now on our own terms, not be forced into it with a weakened hand later.

Glas a du wrote:
Rodders, OK, I'll do that if you persuade the IRFU to cut the apron strings, let the Provinces decide who gets to play, and pluck up enough courage to realise that you won't be "giving away" ERC places as you'll be able to obtain them by league placing i.e. winning your games.

And why would I do that? I don't care who we put out to play as long as they front up and play with the pride and commitment that our provincial shirts deserve. I could point out that we (the provinces and IRFU) are the one's supplying the league with the John Afoas, Ruan Pienaars, Isa Nacewas, Doug Howletts, Brad Thorns, Jarod Paynes etc....the marquee players.... in fact quite a few would have us believe that they are the main or only reason for our success. But yet you are suggesting Welsh fans would rather pay to see a few aging or average Irish players, who many Welsh fans don't rate anyways?..... hmmm

Its not about the big names though...I'd far rather watch the likes of Chris Henry, Devin Toner, Craig Gilroy, John Muldoon, Dave Kearney, Luke O'Dea, Eoin O'Malley, Nigel Brady, Paul Marshall etc. give 100% than watch big name international stars go out go through the motions.

Glas, we're already doing that... doing it the IRFU way. Why? Because if you don't need to put all your stars into every game in the League then only a fool would do it, given that when you get your lovely ERC places (that everyone wants) you still have to make the ERC places count.

Rodders - I'm happy to call it quits at that point. If you see that as a positive for the league were never going to see eye to eye on this

(P.S. remember that you are at as much of a disadvantage in player retention in Ulster as we are by the Republic's tax breaks )

Glas a du wrote:

Glas, we're already doing that... doing it the IRFU way. Why? Because if you don't need to put all your stars into every game in the League then only a fool would do it, given that when you get your lovely ERC places (that everyone wants) you still have to make the ERC places count.

Rodders - I'm happy to call it quits at that point. If you see that as a positive for the league were never going to see eye to eye on this

(P.S. remember that you are at as much of a disadvantage in player retention in Ulster as we are by the Republic's tax breaks )

Glas I don't understand either of those points? What is it you think the IRFU should be doing to improve the league?

The way I see it the sides bringing the quality to the league are the Irish provinces + Ospreys and Scarlets. The others aren't fronting up and pulling their weight to make it as competitive as it should be. Edinburgh, Blues and Dragons are much better than their woeful form suggests.

Ulster are unbeaten for fiec sake, how much more competitive can we be??

The league is not perfect but Scotland and Wales need to sort out their domestic situation before pointing the finger for their own woes elsewhere.

Since there is a lot of talk about unions not wishing to lose places, or risk not being represented, but RFU and FRU are guarenteed to be represented.

why not top 6 in Top 14 qualify.

and Pro 12 and Aviva all play off.

Top of Aviva plays bottom of pro 12, Top pro 12 V bottom of Aviva (newly promoted team to Aviva) 1st v 12th, 2nd v 11th, 3rd V 10th etc etc all the way down. Top 5 are at home bottom 5 away, and 6th V 6th and 7th V 7th alternatate each year, with one year Aviva 6th and Pro 7th at home following year Pro 12 6th and Aviva 7th at home.

That way the RFU, IRFU, WRU, SRU and FIR are not guarenteed any places, between the two league 12 teams get through.

Personally I don't like this Idea as say London Welsh fluked a win over Leinster, then Leinster lose out, even though they are the Pro 12 league toppers,

Maybe 1-4 in each league gets auto entry, 5-12 play of for 4 places? 5 V 12 5 v 11 etc winners of 5 V 12 play winners of 9 v 8 for h-cup spot, but this means top 4 RFU are guarentted a place and no Pro 12 Union is which undoes the orginal point,
balls waste of time

Glas...you talk about the 'big boys' but you also follow the big boys in your reasoning though.

You want a tough, highly charged, highly competitive, highly attritional with it League...that thinks more highly of itself than the European element? It's your right to have that view but that is your view?

The AP sides always suggest AP is more important to them than HEC. The Top14 certainly say it - and mean it. And you want us to think the same of the Pro12.

You want us Irish to stop being obssessed with being 'best' in Europe, and come home to where the flavour should be, come home to Pro12 and lend our best players to it so that Scottish or Welsh crowds would then flock to their grounds to see the Irish HEC gods playing in the league *cough, splutter, never though I'd see the day* - and miraculously too, the Scottish and Welsh players would then want to play with real intensity too - when their professionalism didn't allow themselves to care about a League before (not with their HEC spots already in the can)

I'm telling you, THAT is playing into the hands of the big boys. They'll like it that Pro12 becomes more self obssessed and that the sides blow themselves out in trying to get the HEC places in the first place. That'll be easy picking then for the big French and English sides with their more money and bigger resources in players. They'll enjoy the tired bodies they collide against when HEC comes around. HEC will become something they actually regard higher than their Leagues again - when they are winning again.
So...to you I say. No, Glas - League will always be a lesser competition to a much stronger European competition. We'll preserve as much form as we can to fight in it - without apologising to the rest that we're letting the insular League down.

Plus - and the most important point of all; only Irish sides fight for me personally in Europe. Welsh, Italian or Scottish sides don't represent me - the League itself doesn't represent me. Irish sides do. Now, if there is going to be a guaranteed presence of French and English sides - I'll be damned if I relent and say fine, so Edinburgh will represent me this year or Ospreys the next.

No argument is ever going to change that one. If English sides want to be smug about it and command for eternity guaranteed representation, then I'll want specifically Irish representation by guarantee too.

rodders wrote: The league is not perfect but Scotland and Wales need to sort out their domestic situation before pointing the finger for their own woes elsewhere.

Ah but you see Rodders it's always someone's else's fault. Rather than seeing that Welsh clubs are failing in the league it is more convenient to blame the league itself for the sheer incompetence of the WRU and the Welsh regions. You see Glas doesn't actually have any solution bar throwing stones and an argument for qualification based on meritocracy which I agree with largely. Of course the Top 14 and English Premiership are hardly completely merit based as the same clubs qualify every year bar teams in the last couple of spots. They also have bigger wage bills and live beyond their means, maybe we should insist they deal with that too? Maybe we should insist that all English clubs running debts should not be allowed in the competition- but then only about three would be fit to enter.

Welsh and Scottish rugby need to get their own house in order before dictating to their partners in the Rabo. The WRU has a big surplus, how about taking a leaf out of the Irish provinces and spend some of that on competent coaches? That might help the embarrassing performances we saw last weekend. How about giving your top players central contracts to keep them in Wales? What, the regions blocked that too? That must be the Rabo's fault too.

Well said Hook .

Its not just about big name players.

Munster travel this week to Cardiff.

They have replaced youngster JJ Hanrahan who has just one start for Munster with Ronan O'Gara, one of biggest names of his genration.

Will this attract more Cardiff fans?

It has certainly pishedoff this Munster fan.

Rodders - the IRFU will shaft you without thinking twice. That's my point.

Fly I'm not following their reasoning at all. I happen to be of the same view, but Stag will confirm that I thought this long before them.

Look, what have you all got to be so frightened of? Have faith, a brave new future awaits...

Anyone notice how there have been virtually no Scottish posters on this thread? Is that because they don't care? Or are they happy with the way things are? I'm wondering because we have two sets of fans at opposite ends of the spectrum: Welsh fans who are unhappy, not necessarily at the league (some are) but unhappy generally that their club rugby is not enjoyable to support, and therefore they care and are passioante about finding a solution (be it internal, external or whatever); on the otherhand we have Irish fans who are happy as the league is working well for them, their teams are constantly improving and moving forward and they care that changes are not made that could potentially risk that for them (and rightly so).

Where do Scottish fans enter the argument? Or Italian fror that matter?

Griff - an people like me who are welsh, and think that the Rabo is working for us, and it is just people who are of a certain generation that are not happy with it.

So, fly, what happens if Ireland have a couple of lean years (remember your Sunday school and Jacobs dream of 7 fat cows and 7 thin cows) in the ERC and the Rabo attendances start to dry up?

I'm not saying it will, but what if?

Munster's play off game last year was terribly attended, at Thomond, verses the Ospreys. The fans were having a pwdi because the lost to Ulster in the ERC.

Why wait until this happens before sorting out your bread and butter competition?

Bread and butter is bread and butter yeah? You could have stone baked bread with salted butter though...

Griff wrote:Anyone notice how there have been virtually no Scottish posters on this thread? Is that because they don't care? Or are they happy with the way things are? I'm wondering because we have two sets of fans at opposite ends of the spectrum: Welsh fans who are unhappy, not necessarily at the league (some are) but unhappy generally that their club rugby is not enjoyable to support, and therefore they care and are passioante about finding a solution (be it internal, external or whatever); on the otherhand we have Irish fans who are happy as the league is working well for them, their teams are constantly improving and moving forward and they care that changes are not made that could potentially risk that for them (and rightly so).

Where do Scottish fans enter the argument? Or Italian fror that matter?

This I don't get. The League isn't so much working well for us, rather we are making it work.

Look this is nonsence. It's not the responsibility of the league to develop the teams, it's the teams and stakeholders responsibility to develop the league. The Irish teams + Ospreys and Scarlets are doing that by going out and trying to win games and there are other sides, incidently the ones mainly doing the moaning, who aren't.

Maybe there are no Scottish fans on here moaning because maybe they don't think the IRFU and Rabo league owe them anything, nor believe they are the source of their problems.

Glas a du wrote:Rodders - the IRFU will shaft you without thinking twice. That's my point.

Fly I'm not following their reasoning at all. I happen to be of the same view, but Stag will confirm that I thought this long before them.

Look, what have you all got to be so frightened of? Have faith, a brave new future awaits...

Glas...fact remains, Welsh sides wouldn't be representing me in any meritocracy league, whereas the brave big boys with the bright ideas on making an outside league more competitive (bless 'em for their kindness and all!) - will always be represented, whether their best sides have off years or not, whether Toulouse crumbles and Saint's falls into relegation territory - they will always have 6 buggers in HEC each.

You actually call that a fair deal and good for the Pro12 league? It's not remotely fair and is carefully designed to kill the external competitiveness of Pro12 sides. That's the only reason the AP and Top14 are discussing this - they want to clip the wings of top Pro12 sides. It's not a hidden secret, they admit it. And we smile at our betters and say thanks for sorting us out?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Griff - an people like me who are welsh, and think that the Rabo is working for us, and it is just people who are of a certain generation that are not happy with it.

I'm happy with the league too. I think it's great to have a mini euro league. As I said elsewhere it's great for these players to be exposed to european rugby and everyting it entails such as travel, etc. as a way of becoming a more rounded player ready for euro cups and internationals.

It is the teams themeselves that need to change (the Welsh ones). We need to find a solution to why the teams are not passionate, can't be bothered, why fans are disinterested, etc. However, we need to explore all possibilities and that's why we suggest them on an internet forum. So, sorry to everyone from Ireland that I suggested derby matches to kick off the season, or super saturdays. It's working for you in Ireland so why should you get involved in the gimmicks? No probs whatsoever. But for those nations struggling to make a go at this then let us try to do something about it. By all means let the provinces sit out the festivities if festivities are suggested; keep the provinces away from Super Weekend and play your games later in the season if you don't want to be a part of it; sit out of 'Derby' weekends if you don't see the point in them, and play each other as normal when we're in the LV cup. After all, we're seperate nations so we can do our own thing to a certain extent. But please, if we're tying to grow the league in our own country then let us make suggestions about how to accomplish that. But don't tell us not to tinker when we care for the rugby that we're being served up and care enough to want to do something about it.

rodders wrote:

Griff wrote:Anyone notice how there have been virtually no Scottish posters on this thread? Is that because they don't care? Or are they happy with the way things are? I'm wondering because we have two sets of fans at opposite ends of the spectrum: Welsh fans who are unhappy, not necessarily at the league (some are) but unhappy generally that their club rugby is not enjoyable to support, and therefore they care and are passioante about finding a solution (be it internal, external or whatever); on the otherhand we have Irish fans who are happy as the league is working well for them, their teams are constantly improving and moving forward and they care that changes are not made that could potentially risk that for them (and rightly so).

Where do Scottish fans enter the argument? Or Italian fror that matter?

This I don't get. The League isn't so much working well for us, rather we are making it work.

Look this is nonsence. It's not the responsibility of the league to develop the teams, it's the teams and stakeholders responsibility to develop the league. The Irish teams + Ospreys and Scarlets are doing that by going out and trying to win games and there are other sides, incidently the ones mainly doing the moaning, who aren't.

Maybe there are no Scottish fans on here moaning because maybe they don't think the IRFU and Rabo league owe them anything, nor believe they are the source of their problems.

That and Glasgow are a bloody good side. Decent players well coached. On the other hand a better squad at Edinburgh have Michael Bradley. A bit of investment in competent coaching would improve that no end. Oh. but sure, thats the Rabo's fault too.

Glas a du wrote:So, fly, what happens if Ireland have a couple of lean years (remember your Sunday school and Jacobs dream of 7 fat cows and 7 thin cows) in the ERC and the Rabo attendances start to dry up?

I'm not saying it will, but what if?

Munster's play off game last year was terribly attended, at Thomond, verses the Ospreys. The fans were having a pwdi because the lost to Ulster in the ERC.

Why wait until this happens before sorting out your bread and butter competition?

Bread and butter is bread and butter yeah? You could have stone baked bread with salted butter though...

Was that not played at the Liberty? And the O's only had more folks at their stadium for the 3 Welsh derbies!

Yes, sorry I'm mixing up the last two years

Griff wrote:
It is the teams themeselves that need to change (the Welsh ones). We need to find a solution to why the teams are not passionate, can't be bothered, why fans are disinterested, etc. However, we need to explore all possibilities and that's why we suggest them on an internet forum. So, sorry to everyone from Ireland that I suggested derby matches to kick off the season, or super saturdays. It's working for you in Ireland so why should you get involved in the gimmicks? No probs whatsoever. But for those nations struggling to make a go at this then let us try to do something about it. By all means let the provinces sit out the festivities if festivities are suggested; keep the provinces away from Super Weekend and play your games later in the season if you don't want to be a part of it; sit out of 'Derby' weekends if you don't see the point in them, and play each other as normal when we're in the LV cup. After all, we're seperate nations so we can do our own thing to a certain extent. But please, if we're tying to grow the league in our own country then let us make suggestions about how to accomplish that. But don't tell us not to tinker when we care for the rugby that we're being served up and care enough to want to do something about it.

Well thats a bit more like it Griff. I'd have no problem shuffling around the league fixtures like that but I suppose it has to tie in the Europe and the Internationals. What I would say is the Welsh Derbies have very little spice about them the way the Irish interpros have.

Tinkering with the league a bit is fair enough but its important that Welsh fans understand that the main problems start and end in Wales and only you guys can resolve them. There's no magic bullet to get people through the turnstiles.

The problem with the league is that it is too union focused and not enough together.

the IRFU should be doing all they can to improve the 4 teams as they are the shareholders/owners. The IRFU shouldn't be promoting the league because they like all the other unions are only pushing their four teams.

Few would complain about the Rabo if the Derby attendances where weekly attendances. The unions have done great at getting attendances up but hey shoulod be twice as much as other weeks.

When was the last time you as a fan worried about or focused on teams that are outside the country.

French teams do much more sacrificing of games then the rabo but they promote the league and so no one cares if toulon were rubbish against Toulouse because they gave their first team a week off.

Do far for league improvment I have liked 2 good ideas,

1) Introduce a Celtic Ranfurly Shield, adds to home games as you are defending it, and once lost it could take years to get back, adds spice and papers etc can hype it up as a defense of the shield game. Gives the smaller teams a chance to hold a worthwhile trophy, and gear themselves up when challanging for it.

2) lose 3rd pre season friendly and have a double header at the national stadium, two winners play later in year for regional/Provinicial/district cup.
It would add a lot of hype that the season is kicking off, no team loses a league home game either. It replaces pre-season friendly with a local derby, with sometime at stake - which would be better at getting players fit for a season, than a run out in a friendly. Does have draw back of adding a game to the season though.