Come on Pro 12, sort it out.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.v2journal.com/come-on-pro-12-sort-it-out.html
This was supposed to be a match report of the Scarlets' defeat of Edinburgh at Murrayfield. However the whole experience caused me to question the very existence of the Rabo Direct Pro 12.

On Saturday night, a Grassmarket pub showed the Clermont v Biaritz top 14 match followed by the Gloucester v Leicester premiership match. These matches were a world apart from the previous night's Pro 12 offering, especially in terms of intensity.

But why should that be so? Wales and Ireland are strong internationally, competing well with England and France. Scotland and Italy are punching above their weight given their limited player resources. Irish provinces are amongst the most successful sides in the ERC.

I can't accept that the lack of intensity relates to the quality of players available, even given the Irish presumption in favour of resting international players. As regional or provincial teams, the squads should be more consistent in terms of strength in depth than all but one or two of the strongest Anglo-French clubs.

There must be a Flat Earth Society type of refusal on the part of the Unions involved to acknowledge the fundamental problem right at the heart of this league. It's as if the league is addicted to mediocrity. We all know that the fist step to tackling an addiction is to recognise that you have a problem.

To be fair, it seems that the regions are trying to push the league. However, no amount of promotion and marketing can save you if the product is not right.

And the product is not right.

I was one of only a couple of thousand people in Murrayfield Friday night. Murrayfield. The same Murrayfield that holds almost 70,000 people when full, yet six nations international tickets are so hard to come by. Where fans travel in their thousands from others of the Six Nations to follow their international team every spring.

There was just no atmosphere. Very little noise. Very little competitive chanting or singing. Late in the second half the Edinburgh faithful were incensed by the refereeing decision that gave Rhys Priestland the chance of a three pointer to win the game and net five league points as opposed to two. It was the first time it felt anything like watching top class rugby. It's significant that it was displeasure at the referee that caused this blip. That is the sort of negative thing that does not inspire potential attendees.

The basic truth is that it seems Edinburgh could keep doing what they are doing for a thousand years they will never fill Murrayfield for a Pro 12 game.

Why? The product does not elicit enough of an emotional response; and its not limited to Edinburgh.

I suspected at the time that hearing Gareth Charles getting all excited and the massaging of what little atmosphere there was by the positioning of the effects microphone would have made this a match that was best watched on TV. If fans prefer the TV to a ticket, that is an insurmountable hill to climb for the league.

It is a cyclical problem. No fans turn up, the play is not inspired, fans are not motivated to attend and so on. This also means that very few numbers of away fans are prepared to make the long journeys involved in every non derby fixture. Only Irish provinces are bucking the trend, but even then that's a position that can't be sustainable.

Then there's the lack of tradition, or let's face it, the grudge element of the old Anglo-Welsh games to tempt away fans to travel.

Often the officiating results in a default position of most teams trying to stop the other side playing rather than trying to play some football themselves as the breakdown becomes a lottery. None of this helps.

Ironically however, the big two may through the ERC negotiations give the Pro 12 a much needed shot in the arm. I fully believe that the current collection of mini leagues within a league determining the ERC qualification of the four unions involved undermines the league. There is not enough of a risk factor in losing games with ERC qualification largely unaffected by results. The play offs have added some much needed interest in the top 6 at the end of the season, an ERC qualification battle would do the same for the bottom six. Anything which makes every game relevant to the future of the team, the coaches and players would boost intensity and the interest of away fans. This would draw more home fans as it creates a buzz.

Pro 12 Unions, your league is broken and yes, you do need to fix it.

Griff wrote:It is the teams themeselves that need to change (the Welsh ones). We need to find a solution to why the teams are not passionate, can't be bothered, why fans are disinterested, etc

Are the regions really not passionate? I am not sure they are lacking passion. The Scarlets have had a few ropey seasons, however have been really pushing for the play-off spot in the last two seasons, and the Ospreys have won the league more than any other side. The Dragons have never seemed to lack passion, and the Blues are pretty much the same (although this season they seem to be falling apart).

As for the fans, the number of season tickets sold by the regions are increasing season upon season, and the average attendences are going up too. I think the major problem is that those who are not happy seem to be making more noise than those who are.

The Blues completely lack passion. IMO if they were not based in the Welsh capital they would have disbanded years ago. The way their fans acted last year about playing in CCS was beyond a joke and nothing I have seen over the last 2 years suggests to me that the players are remotely passionate about representing the team.

Kingshu wrote:Do far for league improvment I have liked 2 good ideas,

1) Introduce a Celtic Ranfurly Shield, adds to home games as you are defending it, and once lost it could take years to get back, adds spice and papers etc can hype it up as a defense of the shield game. Gives the smaller teams a chance to hold a worthwhile trophy, and gear themselves up when challanging for it.

Would have it change according to an game lost not just home games. That way the first team to beat the champion can have something to show for it.

What do you think of having a panel whose job it is to sell the league rather then leave it to each union. Our players are as good as the French and English league but we just don't sell it as a league.


Anyone know where the Rabo is shown outside of the Rabo countries and if it is all sold together.

Also agree that promotion of the League as a whole has to improve, IRFu promote the Provinces and Bank of Ireland, do a good job in Promoting Ulster and Leinster.

Maybe we should be looking at Rabo Direct to be pushing the advertisement of the Leauge as a whole.

Also how often in your national papers do you get a write up of other games not involving one of the national Pro teams? Its pretty hard to find the results of the Italian derbies never mind a write up of them. How often have you gone to a game say against Dragons and someone has asked who are they? are they any good? what players do they have? etc etc. Promotion of other team games and just general awareness of the other teams promoted.
Lets be fair to a lot of fans in Ireland the league is the 4 provinces and some other not Irish teams. I'd say the same applies to Wales and Scotaland, (these fans won't be on these boards but there are a fair number of them - like a game and a pint, but won't get to carried away). We need to better promote the league to them and others so when the likes of ospreys or Scarlets visit it creates a bit of hype (think Leinster and Munster and now to an extend Ulster, already do this for other teams and they have made a name for themselves in Europe).

red_stag wrote:The Blues completely lack passion. IMO if they were not based in the Welsh capital they would have disbanded years ago. The way their fans acted last year about playing in CCS was beyond a joke and nothing I have seen over the last 2 years suggests to me that the players are remotely passionate about representing the team.

Perhaps the team talk for the Sale match should be:

"Come on lads, remember we are representing the WRU out there, lets do it...for ROGER!"

Here's a possible solution. We all say we want what's best for the 'League' whilst many of us also have one keen eye on our own part of it (can't be helped, we are 4 Independent Rugby nations and the fans ain't dumb - they know it, and feel it. Each Individual Nation looks after their own national side - we can never realistically compete in one league as one pseudo-national entity)

So...forget about trying to find common ground. The Scottish have issues we in Ireland don't share, and can't share as we're different Unions. Welsh have issues that Italians don't share and can't ever share etc, etc.

Break it up. It had its time - it isn't working for Wales, it's only partially working for Scotland; nobody really wants Italy (except me) and the Irish worry that they'll be asked to give up the HEC guarantee - their real, not-imagined, bread & butter.

So, let's all say thanks for the memories, tell the English and French they are on their own as regards a European Cup for the time being. Tell the ERC and IRB that the Pro12 is ending so that Nations can concentrate on how best to keep themselves motivated and competitive enough to have International sides of worth into the future.

Ireland could then divide each Province in two (north/south) and have an 8 side mini League every year and then take whatever European places we might be given by the nice men of England and France who would then be running the European event.

In short, is this becoming an every man for himself reality with all the unreasonable pressure coming from the French and English for us to regard ourselves as one National unit when of course we simply aren't?

The best solution would be for the Welsh especially to get their house in order before making changes to the Rabo. Every shrill post about how reorganisation of a multinational league should happen is laughable when they haven't even got the brains to organise themselves.

brains! ... oh I get it, thats was a pun right....

Thats abit harsh Hookisms and Hyperbole, esp singleing out the Welsh, for me the Scots attendances need sorted out as a proity.

while things aren't perfect in Wales it is improving, attendances are not the talking point they once were (could be improved but generally are moving in right direction).

And I don't agree that its great here, you sort yourselves out, none of our buiness, because a successful league benefits us all.

Ideas that I mentioned earlier like Celtic Ranfurly Shield, and losing 3rd preseason friendly to have domestic doulbe headers, before the League starts, who Prob help the Scots Welsh and Italians, and it wouldn't harm us either.

More ideas like this could be be discussed here instead of going your problem you sort it. Ok while these are not going to solve the big problems in Wales and Scotland they can help and chip away at the

So, we have the only professional league in any sport where the idea is to play as few games as you can.

Excellent

That should get the punters flooding in.

Glas... you have it as though the teams turn up, the crowds turn up, the TV crews turn up, the commentators turn up, the pundits turn up and the ball boys turn up ------- and stand there waiting for the Pro12 Overlord that holds control over it all to walk onto the field and dictate how things should be:

"Today shall be mostly a Good game - at least until the Second half - Thus it is commandeth by Me that the game can commence, Hail Pro12!"

And when the game falls apart in the second half like predicted: "Well f*ck that Pro12 basteraud!!! He ruined that game! If only they'd give us more reasons for not losing!!!"

rodders wrote:

Griff wrote:Anyone notice how there have been virtually no Scottish posters on this thread? Is that because they don't care? Or are they happy with the way things are? I'm wondering because we have two sets of fans at opposite ends of the spectrum: Welsh fans who are unhappy, not necessarily at the league (some are) but unhappy generally that their club rugby is not enjoyable to support, and therefore they care and are passioante about finding a solution (be it internal, external or whatever); on the otherhand we have Irish fans who are happy as the league is working well for them, their teams are constantly improving and moving forward and they care that changes are not made that could potentially risk that for them (and rightly so).

Where do Scottish fans enter the argument? Or Italian fror that matter?

This I don't get. The League isn't so much working well for us, rather we are making it work.

Look this is nonsence. It's not the responsibility of the league to develop the teams, it's the teams and stakeholders responsibility to develop the league. The Irish teams + Ospreys and Scarlets are doing that by going out and trying to win games and there are other sides, incidently the ones mainly doing the moaning, who aren't.

Maybe there are no Scottish fans on here moaning because maybe they don't think the IRFU and Rabo league owe them anything, nor believe they are the source of their problems.

This is the bit that really annoys me. This whole thread has been taken over by Irish fans getting their backs up because they think that we're asking them to bail us out; that we think the Irish are the source of some sort of problem (your words)? We're not and we don't. We're saying that it's not working for us so let us change - that can be internal or external - but sitting and doing nothing is not the answer. If league performances have not improved in 10 years then the regions need to do something. If numbers haven't grown much, apart from the odd 1000 here and there, then do something about it. If it's less appealing for players to stay, then do something about. I think that some Irish posters have seen the word 'we' when talking about change and assume it means everyone in the league. We're not in this together. We never were. We're 4 seperate countries in a league. We all do things differently. As much as I love you, I don't give a stuff what the Irish get from the league or what they don't get, just as it's clear that the feeling is mutual. I'm only concerned for the Welsh teams. And if the Welsh teams are struggling we (in Wales) need to do something about it. If that means changes to governance, structure, ownership, names, sponsorship, supporter packages, then so be it. If that means changes to the league, and the people in charge agree that, then so be it. If it affects you then you'l have to take that up with the people who OK'd the changes. What we cannot under any circumstances do is sit back and do nothing just because it may offend the other nations in the Pro12. Certainly take the suggestions to the other nations, to the panel committees and the league meetings. If they're rubbish suggestions then they'll reject them, but we can't sit and do nothing and expect attendances, performances, desire, passion, motivation to change on their own. That's where change is needed.[u]

Roughly the Rabo has half the attendances of the Jeff.

Equally Irish attendances are a half of the Rabo.

Based on the rough and ready statbunker.com.
Not great. But an indicator.

The HEC attendances (so far) seem complete though as there is only one home game per team to go on. http://www.statbunker.com/rugby/btb/index.php?PL=competition&CompID=383&statType=home_Att

greytiger wrote:Roughly the Rabo has half the attendances of the Jeff.

Equally Irish attendances are a half of the Rabo.

Gees thats Awful. The Jeff has 4 times the population of the Rabo. How the flip are you guys going to fix your league? Let us know if you need any advice

red_stag wrote:Casartelli,

Why is anyone waiting for anything?

Just go out and watch rugby matches. Support the team.

What are you waiting for?

Think you missed the point. Most people who care enough to blog on sites such as this will always go to games, but as pointed out by other posters, until we have the Welsh house in order, then debating what is good for the 'celtic' league is pointless folly.

If we don't know what the ultimate purpose/goal/aim/objective of having a 'regional' structure is, then how do we decide on a strategy for their most effective participation in any league or competition?

At present, it appears the WRU don't really care much about what happens with the league or HC, as long as we get a GS every couple of years at test level. This isn't a plan as much as it is crossing the fingers and hoping for the best.

I think the union could, and should, take responsibility for improving things. Or at least have a plan. Should be achievable in a little country like ours. Then we might have more Welsh teams playing more consistent rugby in the Rabo, which is good for everyone. Probably.

Rodney,

Gees thats Awful. The Jeff has 4 times the population of the Rabo. How
the flip are you guys going to fix your league? Let us know if you need
any advice

Actually the Jeff's population is < the Rabo if you're being picky.

But maybe the point is to look at the stats (however poor) and give it a moments consideration before shooting from the hip

England has 55 million people in close proximity, a car or a train away

Ireland, Wales and Scotland have about 13 million people and that includes plane flights or ferries (much more fussy)
They also have Italy with 60 million people but they're about 900 miles away and most of them haven't even heard of rugby!

So crowds and attendances? There is no mystery. Even an attendance satisfactory Pro12 will always be less populated than Top 14 or AP. It's simple numbers.

BUT - do numbers define merit or ability? They might define viability but they do not tell us the structures need changing - they just tell us the numbers aren't working out for some members of Pro12. And so, I say maybe the crunch time actually is that we might have to give back each nation it's own business and maybe see them once again try to develop internal leagues that might work better than the sea, sky and a 1000 miles to go one.

Just as an aside, you Irish seem like a pretty pro-active sort. If (and it's a BIG if) the league wasn't working for you I'm 100% confident that you'd be doing something about it. Imagine 10 years ago the IRFU decided that provinces were too parochial and they needed a change to freshen things up and decided to draw new 'Rugby Provinces', 4 completely new franchises out of thin air that forced fans together, e.g. a 'south ireland' team made up of some of the geography of south munster and leinster; a 'south mid' team that came from north munster, south connacht and leinster; a north mid team from conancht and Leinster; and a North team made up of Ulster and connacht. Whatever, it's just fictional. If, after 10 years it wasn't working for whatever reason, e.g. people longing for the return to the old provinces, fans not turnign up to something in a different province, players not bothering beacuse they couldn't identify with the new 'things' called franchises, etc., then don't you think you'd be on here calling for change, even if it meant that those changes may affect the Welsh, Scots and Italians? I think you would. As Fly keeps saying, we're seperate unions and only look to ourselves. Allthough, knowing you lot you'd probably make it work!

Also, just a though about something that may be adding fuel to the fire unceccesarily: Maybe the term 'league not working for us' is getting lost in translation? When us Welsh say that sentence we don't mean it literally, as in the league should be doing the work for us and solving our problems. We mean that 'it's not working out for us'. Doesn't mean we're saying that the league is at fault, just that our position in it is not working out for us currently. Anything in this?!

I still hear this 'league working for you' thing thrown around. Can someone please eleborate as to what way those throwing this comment arround expect it to work for them?

The league doesn't work for anyone. Its simply a structured format where teams play each other for a prize. It is entirely up to the teams that compete in said league to make sure they, and in turn the league is successful, not the other way round.

Edit: Sorry Griff posted before your comment.

Rodders!

Great minds, and all that!

Look Ulster were total rubbish 3 or 4 seasons ago... and bar the Celtic league and Cup win have had a pretty tough run in the last 12 -13 years compared to Munster and Leinster.

Bowe went to Galactico Ospreys and Xavier Rush bought himself out of his contract to stay at Blues rather than join us....a decade of failing to get out of our Heino group. No leadership, no consistancy, poor moral.

I know what its like to go and watch dead rubber games halfway through the season.

Things can be turned around but the individual regions, in conjunction with the WRU, have to look at themselves on and off the pitch. There's no magic bullet.....except maybe buying a load of top saffers..... ....

Well Griff, my point would be that we here in Ireland can't claim to be totally up to speed in the deeply entrenched old ways verses new ways battles of regionalism verses clubs in Wales (although having said that, neither truly can some Welsh rugby fans if they were being honest, and they are perhaps learning the olde worlde views on regionalism from older family members?)

Anyway, we know there is a problem in Wales, a real one. But we're out of the loop. We can't fix it, and boy, if we even made suggestions that we should be asked, in the interests of Pro12 harmony, to make a stab at talking through ancient Welsh battlelines, we'd be rightly told where to go!

So, whilst many of us know the very real divisions and frustrations in Wales as regards regions, we are not in a position to offer much help, as it's internal. Welsh people themselves even admit as such - it's an internal issue that keeps rising its head. There is a lack of trust between clubs, regions and the WRU itself.

BUT... I'm sure Scottish rugby has its worries too. I'm sure they feel the strain of only two sides taking in money when they might feel another one could take an Italian spot.

Italian rugby must have an ocean of worries - internal ones.

But none of us outsiders can solve each others internal problems. Ospreys have won the Pro12 the most. It's not as if Irish people are smirking at the confusion in the ranks of our neighbours - we're just getting on with what we do because that's all we can do, all we have the power to do..and it takes up a lot of our time worrying about it.

We worry about the struggle to keep up with our competitors in other leagues, we worry about keeping good players in the country when truly there is hardly room for them all with only four provinces, we worry about how Provincial success drains determination from the International side.

We have our worries - and we simply think (some of us - quite a few of us - hell even O'Driscoll himself mentioned it) that the new intent on the part of outside leagues to change this one is virtually a sustained attack not on Pro12 but actually on Irish sides, and most particularly the Irish IRFU model. When they (AP and Top14) were winning, HEC wasn't a problem, agreed O'Driscoll.

So many of us are taking this present battle personally, we see it as an interference by another market (AP) in trying to determine how Ireland runs its market (IRFU). That's serious and maybe Pro12 is caught in the middle but an outside business trying to change how another business conducts itself is plain wrong.

Yeah but rodders we can look to help, the league structure is fair, but what if the WRU/SRU wanted to try a few things?

The double header in Wales ois one they are trying, doesn't affect us, so grand go a head.

but what if they said they wanted to try Celtic Ranfurly Shield, and losing 3rd preseason friendly to have domestic doulbe headers, before the League starts.

Should we just say no league works for us.

I don't get some Irish fans seam to just be shouting, yous get your own house in order, end off, whereas I don't mind exploring alternatives that would benifit the league as a whole.

Celtic Ranfurly Shield is one of them, may help Wales and Scotland, and may have a positive boost for Provinces as well. Win win,

Why can't we look for Win Wins, rather that say your problem you sort it?

I do think that the league is not working.

When I say that I mean that a league should be more then the sum of its parts. You can't say the league is the sum of its parts.

I don't think the league is pulling together and we Irish are just as at fault.

You can't see Italian games in italy live which i don't understand.

There is no product of the league, it is only union. There is now fighting it out for second. its Glasgow aren't they so good as the top Scottish team. Are Scarlets finally living up to their ability by being the best welsh region.

There are great tussels going on but we never deal with them because its with other union teams.

Attendances are coming up and that is what we need to focus on. We are doing better. but could try harder.

This is just a talk shop, Kingshu. We decide nothing here so if we agree on plans or disagree on them, I can't see it has any bearing on anything unless we send our suggestions off to the Unions.

If it's a league issue - we're all responsible - but as rodders said, his side have come up out of the doldrums without any changes to the league - and are now swatting all sides before them. Why? Because they got serious and are doing it for themselves. or doing it the 'Irish' way - or however you want to describe it - becoming competitive within the system instead of under changes to the system

If it's an internal problem then suggestions are all very well and good but by the very definition of internal problems, we outsiders can't solve them - you even risk stepping on toes.

So you have your Celtic Ranfurly Shield idea... people will respond to that or not. If a lot of people think it's a good idea it'll remain an idea people thought was agood one. Nobody is shouting - we're discussing something we find interesting.

The TV deals are a problem. even in Ireland you have TG4 and RTE showing Leinster and Munster and BBC NI showing Ulster....

I am not against looking at the league and making changes but what I don't accept is that the underlying problems with the regions are mainly down to the league structure (and yes I know not everyone is saying so).

I want to see a strong league made up of strong teams with big games week in week out. Then you have a product you can sell to TV companies.

I actually don't think on paper we are far off but the Regions and WRU have to sort themselves out, as do Edinburgh..thats all I'm saying.

I think its reaching the point the the WRU wil have to invest as much (% of profit) as the IRFU do the Provinces, or they will be left behind.

A commentator was saying last week that there is beginging to be difference in level between the Provinces and regions (after Dragons and Cardiff suffered BP losses) and to an extent that is true.

The regions and the Provinces should be about level with each other, but a gap is forming. Personally I think the SRU realised this an ddecided if they want to keep up they will have to invest more in Pro game and we are seeing that, I believe that the WRU and regions will have to look at the Pricewaterhouseandcooper report, and decide on a way forward together, with more funding from WRU but regions conceding some control.

Biggest problem right now is Scottish attendances, two big cities and they get about same gates as Connacht, sometime wrong there!

Also believe that a deal with Sky could be the making of the league, nobody does promotion and Hype like Sky does. They would promote the Leauge as a whole and would be keen to descreetly promote it as better than the Aviva. Would really add to Pro 12 V Aviva clashes.

From what I can see Ulster this year have been winning big without there big players playing each week. The irish have strong second 15 which can be said for some others. Scotland is starting to do this also as they have been bring stars home and contracting most younger players.

As someone said having or not having big players on the field does not affect the drive of the team. Most of these second string teams are highly rated u20s or better.

For all Sky's faults they make you feel like they have the best thing in the whole world and that nothing compares to it. Currently you just feel like the stations showing the Rabo are just showing it and nothing more. A case of the game is on they knnwo where to find us.
Also why can't we watch away games on our local stations.

Kingshu wrote:Maybe we should be looking at Rabo Direct to be pushing the advertisement of the League as a whole.

You've got that back-to-front. When you go to a sponsor, it's your responsibility to explain how it will be a good deal for them, because you have the marketing campaign to put their brand in the public eye. You can't take money from a company then turn around and ask them to do your work for you.

Promotion of the league as a whole is really important I feel. Being an Irish man living in Wales I know for a fact that I, and many fans here in Wales, would like to see Leinster vs Munster in the league on normal T.V. Why not have that game televised on BBC 1/2 - all regions - and push the league. Just the way they had the Rugby League on the other day and the way they will have all the internationals on in a week or two. Why not use Scarlets V Ospreys, and other similar games, at Xmas as the main national televised game?!
Celtic Rugby should be using these games to have a panel from all the Celtic nations to discuss and analyse the game and league. This should raise the profile of the league and the game. Which hopefully would mean more fans through the gate and popularise the league therefore giving it more meaning as a domestic trophy and therefore raising the level of the league, or at least the credibility. Pushing these sort of games on a national level under the catchy title of the Rabo Direct Celtic League would surly raise the profile of the league.

Also I think it is important for each Union to push their side of it but it is also important to know the quality of the opposition that a Welsh or Irish team would be playing. All about the fine line in my opinion. Still stand by the Italians being out, no matter how much I respect Treviso, for reasons already mentioned, the potential marketing of 'Celtic' and qualification on merit - add even extra spice for any big nationally televised game.

As for Wales my two cents consists of this. The Premiership Clubs and fans needs to appeased. Their great history is not the only thing going to waste; it is also the fans and the potential development tool that the Premiership is. In NZ the ITM cup had 12,000 fans while the Currie Cup final had something like 30,000. There is no reason that can't be the case in Wales. As I have written before the league needs to be moved to the Summer, or as Eddie Butler has suggested, move it to a Wednesday night under floodlight, but as long as regional players (could just be fringe) are involved a bit closer and a big song and dance is made over the final it shouldn't matter when it is played. Either way I believe even before discussing anything else the first step has to be to put this argument of region vs club to bed once and for all - but that involves the WRU standing up and maybe investing!

You're all right. Cardiff must be terrible to fail to beat that Munster team. Nothing to do with the structure.

Glas a du wrote:You're all right. Cardiff must be terrible to fail to beat that Munster team. Nothing to do with the structure.

Now thats a statement I can get on board with. In fact I'm going to make love to it and then sneak out in the morning and do the walk of shame all the way to Ravenhill. Oh, and I'll never call her and see if she's ok. And I gave her a fake number. I want her to feel as nasty as she looks, and Munster are brutal. Like a big fat girl thats friends with some girl your mate is trying to pull so you have to take a hit for the hit. But hey, thats the kinda of guy I am

I really lost the train of that one.

Hooky, you know it makes sense. As long as they Frak try ill forgive then anything, and that goes for the Scarlets and the WRU.

I think a few Pro 12 teams could learn from Connacht.

They are a team of limited resources, have a low population density, the main city is one on the smallest in pro 12 (only Llanelli smaller, but they don't have the rugby history Llanelli does), are in one of the area's where rugby is definatly 3rd or 4th choice sport, and a team that isn't that successful, 8th place in league last year was their best, and considered an achievement.

Yet they are drawing in crowds to match the Scottish teams in big cities that have made latter stages of competations that Connacht fans can only dream off.

The other teams in Pro 12 have to ask how a team like this with so much against it, can market itself to draw increasing crowds, and support.

Some of it has to do with the feel good factor at other Provinces, with Munster men boosting, Connacht people start taking an intrest in their team, but like wise the regions could be tapping into the national teams success.

Part of it is IRFU, they were the ones that appointed Tom Sears as Connacht Rugby's new chief executive, and also a new Head of Marketing, and Media Executive

another can be read here
http://www.connachtrugby.ie/news-centre
Connacht Rugby Roadshow where the heads travel round the province to outline plans and get feedback.

Anyway back on topic, If Connacht with all its disadvantages over the other teams in the Pro 12 can build support and revenue so can the other that are in a better position.

I think Connacht have created a feel good factor that they are building up and improving, whereas the Dragons and Blues fans can just see survival for years to come, Scarlets fans would have this feel good factor.

For the life of me I cannot work out why Edinburgh and Glasgow are so badly supported?

Is Rugby that far behind football, that the 4th choice game in Connacht is more popular locally than the 2nd sport in Scotland?
Glasgow and (at start of season) Edinburgh would have had the feel good factor making latter stages of main comps. They are in big population centers, and should be able to get an average crowd of 10,000, but only get about 1/3 of that.

For me Connacht are doing a lot right and others should look to them for insperation, and Exeter as well, they are another buiness model to look at and copy. Both done with limited resources, that most pro 12 teams have more of but seam not to be able to use as effictively.

A Key moment for Connacht was creating the Connacht Rugby’s professional games board (PGB)

Who in turn created the role and appointed Alex Saul as head of marketing.

The role was created as part of the PGB’s revitalisation of Connacht Rugby’s off-the-field activities and will include: development of ticketing strategy and operations; identifying and securing strategic partnerships and fundraising; sponsorship strategy; brand strategy and development; re-structuring of retail and merchandise programme; and IRFU and key stakeholder management.

Saul’s previous role was asgroup sponsorship & branding manager for the Welsh Rugby Union,where he oversaw the Union’s Rugby World Cup commercial programme including the RWC kit launch, its Six Nations commercial and events campaigns and was responsible for introducing 4 FTSE 100 companies to the WRU’s partner programme.

I do wonder sometimes if teams have any professional people running them. That is all teams.

Leinster took ages to get out the crowds. They were always viewed as a D4 super club in a way. Bit of success and also more professional attitude from them and they are going from strenght to strenght.

I think Warriors has gone up since they moved but are still struggling.

Scarlets seems to be seeing benefits.

Is rugby a professional game run by ametures. Surely speending 100k on 2-3 people to grow the brand would pay for itself after a couple of years.

Do people think having two teams (perferrably from that region) play as a warm up match fro pro12 games help attendances.

Say Dolphin v Con followed by Munster v whoever etc. You could have schools games too it wouldn't have to be Prem teams.