Come on Pro 12, sort it out.

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This was supposed to be a match report of the Scarlets' defeat of Edinburgh at Murrayfield. However the whole experience caused me to question the very existence of the Rabo Direct Pro 12.

On Saturday night, a Grassmarket pub showed the Clermont v Biaritz top 14 match followed by the Gloucester v Leicester premiership match. These matches were a world apart from the previous night's Pro 12 offering, especially in terms of intensity.

But why should that be so? Wales and Ireland are strong internationally, competing well with England and France. Scotland and Italy are punching above their weight given their limited player resources. Irish provinces are amongst the most successful sides in the ERC.

I can't accept that the lack of intensity relates to the quality of players available, even given the Irish presumption in favour of resting international players. As regional or provincial teams, the squads should be more consistent in terms of strength in depth than all but one or two of the strongest Anglo-French clubs.

There must be a Flat Earth Society type of refusal on the part of the Unions involved to acknowledge the fundamental problem right at the heart of this league. It's as if the league is addicted to mediocrity. We all know that the fist step to tackling an addiction is to recognise that you have a problem.

To be fair, it seems that the regions are trying to push the league. However, no amount of promotion and marketing can save you if the product is not right.

And the product is not right.

I was one of only a couple of thousand people in Murrayfield Friday night. Murrayfield. The same Murrayfield that holds almost 70,000 people when full, yet six nations international tickets are so hard to come by. Where fans travel in their thousands from others of the Six Nations to follow their international team every spring.

There was just no atmosphere. Very little noise. Very little competitive chanting or singing. Late in the second half the Edinburgh faithful were incensed by the refereeing decision that gave Rhys Priestland the chance of a three pointer to win the game and net five league points as opposed to two. It was the first time it felt anything like watching top class rugby. It's significant that it was displeasure at the referee that caused this blip. That is the sort of negative thing that does not inspire potential attendees.

The basic truth is that it seems Edinburgh could keep doing what they are doing for a thousand years they will never fill Murrayfield for a Pro 12 game.

Why? The product does not elicit enough of an emotional response; and its not limited to Edinburgh.

I suspected at the time that hearing Gareth Charles getting all excited and the massaging of what little atmosphere there was by the positioning of the effects microphone would have made this a match that was best watched on TV. If fans prefer the TV to a ticket, that is an insurmountable hill to climb for the league.

It is a cyclical problem. No fans turn up, the play is not inspired, fans are not motivated to attend and so on. This also means that very few numbers of away fans are prepared to make the long journeys involved in every non derby fixture. Only Irish provinces are bucking the trend, but even then that's a position that can't be sustainable.

Then there's the lack of tradition, or let's face it, the grudge element of the old Anglo-Welsh games to tempt away fans to travel.

Often the officiating results in a default position of most teams trying to stop the other side playing rather than trying to play some football themselves as the breakdown becomes a lottery. None of this helps.

Ironically however, the big two may through the ERC negotiations give the Pro 12 a much needed shot in the arm. I fully believe that the current collection of mini leagues within a league determining the ERC qualification of the four unions involved undermines the league. There is not enough of a risk factor in losing games with ERC qualification largely unaffected by results. The play offs have added some much needed interest in the top 6 at the end of the season, an ERC qualification battle would do the same for the bottom six. Anything which makes every game relevant to the future of the team, the coaches and players would boost intensity and the interest of away fans. This would draw more home fans as it creates a buzz.

Pro 12 Unions, your league is broken and yes, you do need to fix it.

Probably for the best Pot Hale. I think an Anglo-Irish league would be very good, if you could get around the relegation thing.

Glas a du wrote:Don't take this the wrong way Rodders, but I hope I never need you to sell anything for me.

It would be like saying to potential customers "look this cheap badly made toy is made in Wales, where is your patriotic spirit? You should be vollunteering altruistically to give me money for this sub standard product as I deserve to stay in business"

It would never work for toys, so why do you think I would work for rugby? There will never be enough altruistic fans to keep the Pro12 alive, even if you count the Irish fans.

Wasn't that the original marketing slogan for the regions?

Glas a du wrote:Don't take this the wrong way Rodders, but I hope I never need you to sell anything for me.

It would be like saying to potential customers "look this cheap badly made toy is made in Wales, where is your patriotic spirit? You should be vollunteering altruistically to give me money for this sub standard product as I deserve to stay in business"

It would never work for toys, so why do you think I would work for rugby? There will never be enough altruistic fans to keep the Pro12 alive, even if you count the Irish fans.

Sadly as far as Wales goes that statement doesnt just apply to Rugby. There are many fine businessmen and craftsmen in Wales trying to do the right thing who end up being hamstrung by those kinds of attitudes.

Keeping strictly to the OP,
is it true that the Rabo draws roughly one third of the Jeff by attendance?
is it true that the the Rabo favours one single nation?
is it true that in Scotland and Wales the old club tradition is still pined for?

Glas a du wrote:Don't take this the wrong way Rodders, but I hope I never need you to sell anything for me.

It would be like saying to potential customers "look this cheap badly made toy is made in Wales, where is your patriotic spirit? You should be vollunteering altruistically to give me money for this sub standard product as I deserve to stay in business"

It would never work for toys, so why do you think I would work for rugby? There will never be enough altruistic fans to keep the Pro12 alive, even if you count the Irish fans.

None taken, I'm not a very good salesman as you mention it

But where we differ here is that for me the product that is poor and not being sold correctly, is not in fact the Rabo league but Regional rugby itself within Wales and its Scottish equivelant.

The overhaul needs to be within these countries, not in the league format. The Ospreys have shown the way. They are League champions and ST Sales are up. It's Blues and Dragons that are the problem and the WRU in conjunction with these sides need to find a way to turn things around. Same with the Scottish teams.

What you are suggesting is like saying they should change AP because Sale aren't going well.

cp10 wrote:There are so many factors why its not working for us Scots and the Welsh but doing exactly what the Irish want.

Its our problem (Welsh and Scots) but is it really going to get any of the Celtic Nations up into the top 4 teams in the world consistantly - never mind number 1.

Here are a few of my thoughts on why its not connecting with fans...

- Scotlands proffesional football tradition means its hard to convince new fans to go to a pan-europe league that means nothing. H-Cup they can relate to as its a european competition.
- Wales has its traditional rugby club league and now has to compete with two successful football clubs.
- Scotland and Wales have top level proffesional football played in direct opposition to rugby during the season.

- Irish don't have a proffesional sport on thier door step to distract the population.
- Gaelic football is simlilar to rugby so player/supporters can flit between the two

- the Italians have brought the entertainment level down with their style of play

- Is a 28 (plus the extra for HEC knockout rounds the Irish have) game season too long? Super Rugby is 16 games.

- We're not guaranteed to see the best player due to arranged rest periods

- Intensity is reduced because of the two comments above

Closer to home

- football is in decline or maybe just at a low point here in Scotland. Clubs aren't producing a great product and the national team are lucky to have a good qualifying campaign never mind qualify for a tournament.

- should Edinburgh be called Edinburgh? Should it be a more generic name and the team play games in Edinburgh and some games in the Borders ala Munster? Become more of a regional Union of clubs.

- Yes we need to move from Murrayfield but to where? SRU know this and are working on find alternate venues.

- its bloody freezing up here in Scotland from Oct through to March. Summer rugby!!

Sorry no solutions just questions and statements....

There's a few statements that I have a problem with there...

1. I wouldn't exactly call the SPL a top quality league! And as much as Cardiff City and Swansea are making inroads into Welsh life, that's only in Cardiff and Swansea?! What about the rest of Wales?
2. Ireland may not have a professional sport but GAA is about as close to one as you can get. And every hole in the hedge has a club that the local population vociferously support at all times. The County teams get 80,000 people into Croke Park on a Sunday afternoon. Jeez the Dubs alone would fill it twice over. Munster and Leinster would just about fill Croker in December.
3. I don't think the Italian teams have brought the standard down, in fact them being a part of the Pro12 has certainly increased the standard of Italian play!
4. While Edinburgh are struggling, Glasgow are flourishing. Nearly 4,000 season ticket holders, potentially increasing the stadium size over the next year, real appetite for tickets...

greytiger wrote:is it true that Scotland and Wales the old tradition is still pined for?

Clubs in Scotland want their league professional. They don't have enough fans (recurring theme) so not really a viable option.

For countries the size of Ireland, Wales and Scotland we need Super teams to condense the talent.

Problems in Scotland require complex fixing from player development to the level of competition under top level (eg Semi Pro) to the structure of the Super teams playing in a Celtic Super League. All failing in Scotland.

Glas a du wrote:Don't take this the wrong way Rodders, but I hope I never need you to sell anything for me.

It would be like saying to potential customers "look this cheap badly made toy is made in Wales, where is your patriotic spirit? You should be vollunteering altruistically to give me money for this sub standard product as I deserve to stay in business"

It would never work for toys, so why do you think I would work for rugby? There will never be enough altruistic fans to keep the Pro12 alive, even if you count the Irish fans.

Well, as rugby fans, what can people in Wales DO to make the league better other than going to games? I mean, if this fails its the end of top-level rugby in Wales. So I'm not sure what fans want.

Reminds me of when Connacht were in danger of being wound up; thousands march in protest, much more than the number that turn up at the next home game.

Yeah, they've got to market it better and they've got to perform and put bums on seats. The WRU made huge mistakes in the creation of the regions, the SRU have run their pro teams badly. They need to up their game for sure but if they do and it falls on death ears? Game over. Not that they bloody are. Very uncertain future for the Pro12. Very worrying.

UlstermaninGlasgow wrote:

cp10 wrote:There are so many factors why its not working for us Scots and the Welsh but doing exactly what the Irish want.

Its our problem (Welsh and Scots) but is it really going to get any of the Celtic Nations up into the top 4 teams in the world consistantly - never mind number 1.

Here are a few of my thoughts on why its not connecting with fans...

- Scotlands proffesional football tradition means its hard to convince new fans to go to a pan-europe league that means nothing. H-Cup they can relate to as its a european competition.
- Wales has its traditional rugby club league and now has to compete with two successful football clubs.
- Scotland and Wales have top level proffesional football played in direct opposition to rugby during the season.

- Irish don't have a proffesional sport on thier door step to distract the population.
- Gaelic football is simlilar to rugby so player/supporters can flit between the two

- the Italians have brought the entertainment level down with their style of play

- Is a 28 (plus the extra for HEC knockout rounds the Irish have) game season too long? Super Rugby is 16 games.

- We're not guaranteed to see the best player due to arranged rest periods

- Intensity is reduced because of the two comments above

Closer to home

- football is in decline or maybe just at a low point here in Scotland. Clubs aren't producing a great product and the national team are lucky to have a good qualifying campaign never mind qualify for a tournament.

- should Edinburgh be called Edinburgh? Should it be a more generic name and the team play games in Edinburgh and some games in the Borders ala Munster? Become more of a regional Union of clubs.

- Yes we need to move from Murrayfield but to where? SRU know this and are working on find alternate venues.

- its bloody freezing up here in Scotland from Oct through to March. Summer rugby!!

Sorry no solutions just questions and statements....

There's a few statements that I have a problem with there...

1. I wouldn't exactly call the SPL a top quality league! And as much as Cardiff City and Swansea are making inroads into Welsh life, that's only in Cardiff and Swansea?! What about the rest of Wales?
2. Ireland may not have a professional sport but GAA is about as close to one as you can get. And every hole in the hedge has a club that the local population vociferously support at all times. The County teams get 80,000 people into Croke Park on a Sunday afternoon. Jeez the Dubs alone would fill it twice over. Munster and Leinster would just about fill Croker in December.
3. I don't think the Italian teams have brought the standard down, in fact them being a part of the Pro12 has certainly increased the standard of Italian play!
4. While Edinburgh are struggling, Glasgow are flourishing. Nearly 4,000 season ticket holders, potentially increasing the stadium size over the next year, real appetite for tickets...

1. I never said anything about the SPL being top quality. Its shoite product.
2. A few Irish friends I know played/play both GAA and rugby
3. Only upside is allowing them to improve - but it doesn't help us
4. Agree - Glasgow seems to have created a better product than Edinburgh. I agree we need them - just don't think its working in the correct way.

For the anti Rabo brigade. Why are things working at Ospreys, Glasgow and Scarlets?

You say the heino is different and captures the public imagination because of its prestege and history but the RABO doesn't. Do you think if the Rabo was wound up your own domestic league would be of sufficient standard as to produce players and teams who can compete with the top French and English sides?

I'm hearing a lot of complaints here about the Rabo but not much in the way of alternatives to it.

When alternatives have been suggested we've been told that we shouldn't mess with the system because the Irish teams are happy and effectively are the Pro 12 and we shouldn't change it if they're happy. No one wins.

What is the Alternative that has been suggested and how will it resolve the financial issues and poor crowd numbers at some of the Welsh and Scottish sides?

Not sure about finances, but in terms of crowds we've suggested super weekends with all games in one city e.g. Murrayfield on opening day; a derby series at the start of the season; summer rugby; block delivery of the pro 12 (obviously the last 2 would take a restructuring of the whole NH season so not realistic); changes to HC qualification to spice up the league (mainly proposed by non-pro12 fans but a growing crowd of pro12 fans too); central contracts; a return to club sides; etc.

I don't know the answer. But 10 years seems enough of a yardstick to measure success and and the suitbaility of these regions to success in welsh club rugby. And if anything we've peaked and now are going downhill.

rodders wrote:For the anti Rabo brigade. Why are things working at Ospreys, Glasgow and Scarlets?

You say the heino is different and captures the public imagination because of its prestege and history but the RABO doesn't. Do you think if the Rabo was wound up your own domestic league would be of sufficient standard as to produce players and teams who can compete with the top French and English sides?

I'm hearing a lot of complaints here about the Rabo but not much in the way of alternatives to it.

Because people don't have faith in the league and the public appeal of the Pro 12, the brand and what it stands for. It's not English and it's not French. It ain't Irish, Welsh, Scottish or Italian either. It's the Celtic-League-and-oh-yeah-the-Italians. It's the Rabo/Rabbo/Rabies League. It's the RP12. The Rabo 12. The Pro Direct 12. It is a combination of publicly accepted hundred year old provincial club teams, combined with artificial franchises, super regions, and failed regions. Its lower ranked teams can coast along in mediocrity and nothing will happen - though the Italians put paid to that notion last year. It survives on defiance, bailouts, overdependence, and pig-headedness.

It's a three country mix of teams with plenty of other foreign internationals, but a lop-sided dominance by one in terms of funding, income generation, fan bases and success.

Its lack of success is gilded over by participation in what people really want - a European competition - even though success is only attached to one of the countries. Isolated success that papers over cracks that are rapidly becoming fissures.

In short, it's a dogs dinner. Doesn't matter whether you call it the Rabo Pedigree Chum 12 or the Aldi 12 Bonus Specials, it's still doggie food.

Griff wrote:Not sure about finances, but in terms of crowds we've suggested super weekends with all games in one city e.g. Murrayfield on opening day; a derby series at the start of the season; summer rugby; block delivery of the pro 12 (obviously the last 2 would take a restructuring of the whole NH season so not realistic); changes to HC qualification to spice up the league (mainly proposed by non-pro12 fans but a growing crowd of pro12 fans too); central contracts; a return to club sides; etc.

I don't know the answer. But 10 years seems enough of a yardstick to measure success and and the suitbaility of these regions to success in welsh club rugby. And if anything we've peaked and now are going downhill.

Here's an idea that might work for the Welsh sides. The WRU has a big surplus- spend the money on bringing in competent coaches. The Irish sides haven't messed about with poor quality coaches just because they were a) Irish, and b) cheap. Look at the Welsh national side. A well coached outfit gets good results. My God, its genius! Look at Ireland on the other hand. Good players, badly coached. It's really not rocket science.

Griff wrote:When alternatives have been suggested we've been told that we shouldn't mess with the system because the Irish teams are happy and effectively are the Pro 12 and we shouldn't change it if they're happy. No one wins.

And we also get told that we should butt out of internal Welsh affairs because they are too complex for us to understand. And we say: "We know, we know but can you do a synopsis on it"
And we get told: "Well, basically, nothing works and nothing will work as regions don't work, WRU supremacy doesn't work, football works too well, we're not as crazy about rugby as you Irish seem to think...and it doesn't matter what we do to Pro12, it's still honestly not going to work for Wales as it's too complicated for you to understand"
And we say: "Sorry to hear it but how can we help? We're doin okay. Could you try really following some of our ideas to help you get a grounding and go from there?".
And we get told: "Don't be smug and don't rub it in and don't sneer. If you want to genuinely help, you'd agree with us that Pro12 needs to be made more competitive...not that it'll help any as football is too popular and we don't like regions and it's very complex, and there will still be no money or crowds"

And we throw our hands in the air and some of us suggest maybe the dark problem with no-name is that some Welsh people are simply not interested in any league concept that doesn't include a generous helping of encounters with their old enemies the English. I sometimes think that's the hidden reason for apathy amongst many. They never liked the idea of a Celtic League and would have much prefered a League link to the English Premiership sides. That would of course be a legitimate dream for those people but if the Pro12 isn't working for people who aren't interested to begin with then adaptations won't work either.

I would need to challenge Glas a du's initial theory re the lack of atmoshere at Scottish matches. At Glasgow you always get passion and banter - look at the Heino game with Ulster - brought alive by a fantastic away support but nonetheless a tremendous atmosphere. At Firhill the atmosphere was always intense because you were on top of the pitch - this has been affected at Scotstoun but they are working on it. Personally I have not witnessed a Glasgow Warriors side not giving 100% effort and fight - ask their opponents ?

Murrayfield is not known by Warriors supporters as The Library for nothing. BTW international tickets are very easy to come by at M'field - e.g. still ABs tickets for sale with game 10 days away. On that subject on Int. match days a fair proportion of those in the ground are would not know a rugby ball from an ice hockey puck and really just go for the Mexican waves that depressingly prevails there.

My point is not to confuse what goes on in Edinburgh and Glasgow because both teams are run by the abysmal SRU. Both very different and watch us go when we get our injured players back - despite Gregor Townsend

Pot Hale wrote:

rodders wrote:For the anti Rabo brigade. Why are things working at Ospreys, Glasgow and Scarlets?

You say the heino is different and captures the public imagination because of its prestege and history but the RABO doesn't. Do you think if the Rabo was wound up your own domestic league would be of sufficient standard as to produce players and teams who can compete with the top French and English sides?

I'm hearing a lot of complaints here about the Rabo but not much in the way of alternatives to it.

Because people don't have faith in the league and the public appeal of the Pro 12, the brand and what it stands for. It's not English and it's not French. It ain't Irish, Welsh, Scottish or Italian either. It's the Celtic-League-and-oh-yeah-the-Italians. It's the Rabo/Rabbo/Rabies League. It's the RP12. The Rabo 12. The Pro Direct 12. It is a combination of publicly accepted hundred year old provincial club teams, combined with artificial franchises, super regions, and failed regions. Its lower ranked teams can coast along in mediocrity and nothing will happen - though the Italians put paid to that notion last year. It survives on defiance, bailouts, overdependence, and pig-headedness.

It's a three country mix of teams with plenty of other foreign internationals, but a lop-sided dominance by one in terms of funding, income generation, fan bases and success.

Its lack of success is gilded over by participation in what people really want - a European competition - even though success is only attached to one of the countries. Isolated success that papers over cracks that are rapidly becoming fissures.

In short, it's a dogs dinner. Doesn't matter whether you call it the Rabo Pedigree Chum 12 or the Aldi 12 Bonus Specials, it's still doggie food.

When you say a 'lop sided dominance by one in terms of....success', you are talking about in the HC rather than the Pro 12, right? Because since the regions came in welsh teams have won the Celtic League/Pro 12 the most


But yeah, we're still gash and no one supports it here.

cp10 wrote:There are so many factors why its not working for us Scots and the Welsh but doing exactly what the Irish want.

Its our problem (Welsh and Scots) but is it really going to get any of the Celtic Nations up into the top 4 teams in the world consistantly - never mind number 1.

Here are a few of my thoughts on why its not connecting with fans...

- Scotlands proffesional football tradition means its hard to convince new fans to go to a pan-europe league that means nothing. H-Cup they can relate to as its a european competition.
- Wales has its traditional rugby club league and now has to compete with two successful football clubs.
- Scotland and Wales have top level proffesional football played in direct opposition to rugby during the season.

- Irish don't have a proffesional sport on thier door step to distract the population.
- Gaelic football is simlilar to rugby so player/supporters can flit between the two

- the Italians have brought the entertainment level down with their style of play

- Is a 28 (plus the extra for HEC knockout rounds the Irish have) game season too long? Super Rugby is 16 games.

- We're not guaranteed to see the best player due to arranged rest periods

- Intensity is reduced because of the two comments above

Closer to home

- football is in decline or maybe just at a low point here in Scotland. Clubs aren't producing a great product and the national team are lucky to have a good qualifying campaign never mind qualify for a tournament.

- should Edinburgh be called Edinburgh? Should it be a more generic name and the team play games in Edinburgh and some games in the Borders ala Munster? Become more of a regional Union of clubs.

- Yes we need to move from Murrayfield but to where? SRU know this and are working on find alternate venues.

- its bloody freezing up here in Scotland from Oct through to March. Summer rugby!!

Sorry no solutions just questions and statements....

1) Scottish Claymores (American football team played in a pan European league and averaged 11000 a game, so I won't buy that.
2) while in Ireland we don't have the big teams, plenty of fans travel over the Irish sea each weekend, and if your Looking at Scottish football, look how many of the old firm supports are from Ireland. We also have Gaelic games and while not attacting th eame crowds as Scottish football, every village has a clubs which draws support (and I mean every village), over a weekend, Total GAA games attendance would dwarf total Scottish football attendance.
3) Italians I think have added to League, with a different style of play.
4) Rest periods still see good teams turning out, fans still would go see a Tigers V Haraquins game when thier internationals are missing (and they lose aas many as Pro 12 teams) if anything the Pro 12 is a fairer league as all teams suffer to an extent, while some Aviva ones don't affecting the league more.

Should Edinburgh move, I don't think so, they are in a big city and should be able to draw in big crowds, most teams would love to be in a city that size, and wouldn't dream of moving out to a lower population draw.


I know it seams I'm having a go at SRU and Edinburgh, but I do accept that they are struggling to move from Murrayfield, and I will Praise the SRU for getting behind the teams in last 2 years. Glasgow's move was good the signings have shown ambition and SRU are moving forward.

It just gets me that a team like Edinburgh cannot pull in the crowds, its an insult that Connacht are getting around the same size crowds, in a City 1/5th of the size with a low population density, Edinburgh were in the h-cup semi's yet Connacht are getting bigger crowds from being in group stages? The weather can't be used either, its not much worse in West of Ireland (warmer but wetter).

I just think that its a poor reflection on SRU that Connacht have caught up with Edinburgh, Edinburgh and Glasgow should be Comparable to Ospreys/Cardiff/Ulster/Scarlets in terms of support.

while I think the SRU have done plenty right in last 2 years, they let it get very bad, and have to do something to catch up quickly or be left behind, or end up as 2 Connachts!

I agree Fly, the Rabo doesn't work. The sky is falling down and Chicken Licken is about to be eaten by a fox the nasty bugger. What is the alternative to the Rabo? Answers:

A Welsh or Scottish league? None of the clubs could support it financially.
A european league? No chance. The novelty of meeting French and English teams would soon wear off and Welsh fans would still be crying off for the great days of Pontypool vs Pontypridd just like it was in the 70s.

Listen, I long for players with bushy sideburns and magnificent moustaches as much as the next person. But the game has moved on. I would love to be going down to watch Ballymena every week instead of Ulster, but the AIL isn't viable for a small player base. I played five or six seasons ago in AIL 1 and some lads from the fringes of the provincial side were playing. They were a class apart. Imagine that week in, week out. Do you think North or Cuthbert or whoever are going to improve playing on Saturday at 2pm in some field against Ebbw Vale or whoever to lift them to the next level to play in the Six Nations? You'll end up with Welsh players off to France, England or worse, rugby league. RUGBY LEAGUE I tell you. Some Welsh players chose that god forsaken game instead of playing for Welsh clubs in the 1990s. Yeah, a return to the club game in the answer.

SecretFly wrote:

Griff wrote:When alternatives have been suggested we've been told that we shouldn't mess with the system because the Irish teams are happy and effectively are the Pro 12 and we shouldn't change it if they're happy. No one wins.

And we also get told that we should butt out of internal Welsh affairs because they are too complex for us to understand. And we say: "We know, we know but can you do a synopsis on it"
And we get told: "Well, basically, nothing works and nothing will work as regions don't work, WRU supremacy doesn't work, football works too well, we're not as crazy about rugby as you Irish seem to think...and it doesn't matter what we do to Pro12, it's still honestly not going to work for Wales as it's too complicated for you to understand"
And we say: "Sorry to hear it but how can we help? We're doin okay. Could you try really following some of our ideas to help you get a grounding and go from there?".
And we get told: "Don't be smug and don't rub it in and don't sneer. If you want to genuinely help, you'd agree with us that Pro12 needs to be made more competitive...not that it'll help any as football is too popular and we don't like regions and it's very complex, and there will still be no money or crowds"

And we throw our hands in the air and some of us suggest maybe the dark problem with no-name is that some Welsh people are simply not interested in any league concept that doesn't include a generous helping of encounters with their old enemies the English. I sometimes think that's the hidden reason for apathy amongst many. They never liked the idea of a Celtic League and would have much prefered a League link to the English Premiership sides. That would of course be a legitimate dream for those people but if the Pro12 isn't working for people who aren't interested to begin with then adaptations won't work either.

The only person doing a synopsis on it is Kingshu, one of your own. And very good insight it is too. Yet he manages to discuss it without getting his hair off. Good posts by that man.

You're told that 'it's too complicated for you to understand'? Come on now, you're making that one up to add weight to your argument. Really? Someone has actually said that it's too complicated for you to understand? What a Neanderthal that person was.

Not sure about your English league theory. Not a dream I've got. Nor anyone I go to the Dragons with. Maybe a West Wales thing?

All I want is a league, any league, with competitive welsh teams in. The current league seems to fit best as it has other teams with similar set ups, I.e. provincial, franchises, whatever they're called. However, just because we're similar doesn't mean that it's going to work for all. And it's not. I made a suggestion elsewhere for the WRU to take full control of the regions, rather than forcing their creation and telling a handful of benefactors to get on with running them, but looking over their shoulder at every opportunity. That's my solution from a welsh point of view. Full control means control of the finances, the players, coaches, coach development, problem solving, marketing, the whole lot. This would also allow us to not break any of the egg shells we're walking in in our relationship with the other pro12 nations, I.e. an internal solution rather than a league one. Will it work? Who knows. Will the WRU do it? Probably not. Will the regions improve on their own? In patches, as always. But we've got a half hearted approach to our pro club game from our national governing body, so we get half hearted results.

Make it top six to qualify for Europe, also i think the Regions and Welsh prem miss a trick they should use top flight players between them more not just the few returning from injury or the bench warmers who need game time.
The clubs would feel more attached if the Welsh internationals played in the Welsh prem teams, say four games a year each.
Also sort out the central contracts.

Griff wrote:
When you say a 'lop sided dominance by one in terms of....success', you are talking about in the HC rather than the Pro 12, right? Because since the regions came in welsh teams have won the Celtic League/Pro 12 the most
But yeah, we're still gash and no one supports it here.

I was talking about a combination of both, Griff. Obviously in European comps, but also within the Celtic/Pro League. The playoff system is nice for extending the league season and giving it more bite, but if you look at the teams at the top of the various version of the leagues since 2001 season, there's more Irish provincial teams sitting there than any other. And you're right, Welsh clubs have won it five times since 2001 and have done very well. Your last sentence speaks volumes though.

I have to agree with Griff, anytime I go into history of Welsh regions they are understanding and actually sometimes like n outside view.

It appears that I'm picking on Edinburgh, I'm not I like their team but I just can't understand how that Scottish american football team, and Connacht could get bigger crowds in.

The Regions have problems as well, but they are increasing attendance, there are other issues that won't have quick fixes.


I think the main problem is the IRFU invest a lot in the Provinces and the SRU and WRU are not willing to but in the same % to turnover that the IRFU do, hence why they are better off, the SRU have changed policy and we are seeing the begingings of that benifit, look at the recent signing and Glasgow. Edinburgh will come on as well, Semi in Hcup last year as well. However both of them really need to boost crowds, for the city size they are in, in crowd terms they are punching well below potentional.

IF WRU invested the same % in the regions as the IRFU do the Provinces, I think we would quickly see a turn around in fortunes. The total attendance for the 4 regions V 4 provinces isn't that far off, and some more promotion and better funded teams and it could overtake it in a year or two.

In short either the IRFU are putting to much into our teams and scaraficing rugby elsewhere (Rugby is the fastest growing game however, as the provinces success catchs people attention).
Or the WRU and SRU are under investing in their teams, focusing on ground roots.

I think it will appear uneven untill the SRU and WRU match the IRFU's commitment to thier teams, the big question is are they willing to?

Think SRU are beginging to match it or close the difference in funding anyway.

Also I don't really believe the SRU and WRU are poor compared to IRFU, All 3 have stadium debt to pay off, and IRFU did help with Thomond as well.

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:
When you say a 'lop sided dominance by one in terms of....success', you are talking about in the HC rather than the Pro 12, right? Because since the regions came in welsh teams have won the Celtic League/Pro 12 the most
But yeah, we're still gash and no one supports it here.

I was talking about a combination of both, Griff. Obviously in European comps, but also within the Celtic/Pro League. The playoff system is nice for extending the league season and giving it more bite, but if you look at the teams at the top of the various version of the leagues since 2001 season, there's more Irish provincial teams sitting there than any other. And you're right, Welsh clubs have won it five times since 2001 and have done very well. Your last sentence speaks volumes though.

Yeah, my last comment was really making a point that we've had just as much success if not more that the Irish but attendances are still low and the regions are actually getting worse. I.e. success doesn't seem to be breeding growth as is often the suggested answer. 'Start winning and the fans will come'. We're (welsh teams) winning the league but fans aren't coming. That's when it becomes very difficult to know what to do.

Griff wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Griff wrote:
When you say a 'lop sided dominance by one in terms of....success', you are talking about in the HC rather than the Pro 12, right? Because since the regions came in welsh teams have won the Celtic League/Pro 12 the most
But yeah, we're still gash and no one supports it here.

I was talking about a combination of both, Griff. Obviously in European comps, but also within the Celtic/Pro League. The playoff system is nice for extending the league season and giving it more bite, but if you look at the teams at the top of the various version of the leagues since 2001 season, there's more Irish provincial teams sitting there than any other. And you're right, Welsh clubs have won it five times since 2001 and have done very well. Your last sentence speaks volumes though.

Yeah, my last comment was really making a point that we've had just as much success if not more that the Irish but attendances are still low and the regions are actually getting worse. I.e. success doesn't seem to be breeding growth as is often the suggested answer. 'Start winning and the fans will come'. We're (welsh teams) winning the league but fans aren't coming. That's when it becomes very difficult to know what to do.

Did the ospreys not sell a record number of season tickets?

'Sell' is a bit of a contentious one with the Ospreys this season. Not knocking them, as at least they're trying, but they had a buy one get one free policy. From what I can tell a person could buy one and was given a second one which they could use to take along whoever they like, or just give it to someone. Therefore, I'm assuming the season ticket sales are a record because they effectively doubled every one sold. If it brings in more fans then great, but maybe the figures need to be taken with a pinch of salt.

Griff wrote:
You're told that 'it's too complicated for you to understand'? Come on now, you're making that one up to add weight to your argument. Really? Someone has actually said that it's too complicated for you to understand? What a Neanderthal that person was.

I do have a slight reputation for using a good dollop of creative licence to contruct my arguments and a good chunk of tongue-in-cheek too. In between which can be some quite serious points though but yes, I agree, nobody says "mind your own business" - but dear Lord, it Does get complicated!!!!! Now that, you can't deny!

The clubs hate the regions, the regions don't particularly like themselves, none of them like the WRU, the players love playing for the WRU and aren't all that interested in the regions. The fans hate the regions but support some of them because they remember them as clubs...and yep, it's a complicated.

Another serious point is that Yes, I have been in unreasonable loops with Welsh posters. They say why they can't do something, you say 'others do it', they say 'others aren't us', you say 'but that's my point, I'm telling you how you can do the something if you really want to'. They say they don't want to - and you kinda think then why are we here discussing it.

Another serious point is that I was around for the debates about Celtic or English involvement for Welsh sides at the beginning of the Celtic league and I've been around when those points have been made in intervening years too. It was a real issue I've seen crop up from time to time, not one I invented.

But you must admit that your point is also a little loose with the truth when you say us Irish don't want Pro12 changed because it suits us. It only suits us until it doesn't and that could be this year, next year or indeed all the years that Ospreys won it and Irish sides didn't!

I've also at times been on personal crusades to stand up for Scottish and Italians within the Pro12 format and within the HC one too. Protecting their interests in debate anyway and seeing that strong sides in Pro12 will not endanger Irish sides but push every side even further to improve.

Attendances at both Edinburgh and Glasgow are comparable.

Edinburgh V Munster 4,050 (3,467)
Edinburgh V Zebre 3,541 (Aironi 4,403)
Edinburgh V Terviso 4,079 (2,855)
Edinburgh V Saracens 6,543 HC n/a
Edinburgh V Scarlets 3,754 (2,969)

Glasgow V Scarlets 4,348 (first game at Scotstoun)
Glasgow V Connacht 3,646
Glasgow V Zebres 3,313
Glasgow V Ulster 6,194 HC

Importantly this is actually growing for both sides. Comparable figures for Edinburgh last year in brackets.

My loose point about the Irish not wanting change because it suited them was picked up from you earlier! I hadn't considered it before that! And it wasn't that you didn't want progress, if I've understood you, it's that you didn't think the Irish should change when they've been the ones working the hardest, being the best, drawing the crowds, making the money, etc. and I can understand that. You've earned the right to call the shots, as it were. My point was that if change is needed to allow the failing nations to improve and thus make the league stronger, then it may need Ireland to buy into that change, however unfair that may be as, like you say, you may end up being penalised for the greater good. You'll still be the best of that new 'changed' model though, I'm sure!

The best way, as alluded to earlier by everyone, would be for internal change. But if that doesn't work then where next?

I agree with your reading about all that, Griff. And I don't mind us - all of us - deciding on changes to our League but I just don't like the idea of being under pressure to make those changes by outside forces who would stand to gain so much if our League didn't actually improve in overall standard but actually slipped down for a half decade or so.

So I don't like the idea, in principle, that either AP or Top14 privately run businesses - for that is what the clubs are - should seek to dictate the structure and make up of a competing European league that is none of their business.

Maybe the Welsh, Scottish, Irish and Italians should have their own private meeting to come to a clear decision on their own proposals for change that will satisfy their own internal league problems and proposals for the HC discussions that they'll all agree to defend in unison. Right now, there is a view that Unions within the League are doing their own individual talking and that they all have their own differing views. Top14 and Ap will jump on that confusion as a weakness. Pro12 League should go to HC talks with a strong unified approach.

And would that approach be a strong political union or a strong economic one SF?
Other posters on other threads seem to be more concerned about survival than silverware.

The Rabo 12 itself isnt really working as its meant to though is it? Unless its purpose is just to provide a basic entry level for the teams in it to compete in the Heineken Cup. Even the Irish teams who are currently enjoying success at the moment dont really prioritise it. Wales and Scotland have problems which are a part of a bigger issue but while the Rabo 12 has the kind of relationship it has with the Heineken Cup then I dont see things changing for it. It will continue to be a half hearted distraction to the Heineken Cup and will treated as such by the teams and players in it and the fans of those sides. Much of the competitiveness of the AP and Top 14 derives from having to qualify for the HC and to a lesser extent the threat of relegation. If all of the AP and Top 14 sides were automatically given a place every year in the HC then its only natural the domestic league would lose intensity and significance as those sides directed the vast majority of their efforts for the biggest tournament.

Putting the relegation system into the Rabo is, in essence, just bowing down the English commands. Leave it out, it's fine without that. It's the teams that need vast improvement.

greytiger wrote:And would that approach be a strong political union or a strong economic one SF?
Other posters on other threads seem to be more concerned about survival than silverware.

If you're not concerned about winning silverware, the potential for having the players with which to do so decreases incrementally.

If you're not concerned about winning silverware you're always worrying about survival. So the one that might seem pretentious (looking for or pursuing silverware) is the only real thing, the only practical thing that will at least offer the hope of actual survival. One goads the other.

You will not survive if surviving alone is your goal. Dreaming of silverware might not help you survive either (as not every side can be top dog) but it'd be a better bet for survival than just ticking over with little ambition and less enthusiasm.

A final point. If Leinster slid to mid Pro12 table for a few seasons and didn't go anywhere in HC for the same few years.... that would be very serious. Survival would be on the agenda as better players would then start seaping out of the Province and that itself would propel the trip downward. Survival issues are relevant to many sides across Europe - including Leinster and other Irish Provinces. The only real hope for all sides is going out and trying to win every game.

Sides that are at the top now have had to get there. They were the mid to bottom sides of the past. Staying there requires the same attention to effort as getting there. That's the level playing field that takes the politics and economy out of it and leaves it where it should always be, in the hands of players.

Its a competition that has holds limited significance is the issue. It has some good sides in it, but they dont prioritise it and have no incentive to. Even if every side in it was top class and of similar standard, if it offers no real incentive to qualify for the Heineken Cup then clubs will continue to treat it with only limited commitment. People ignore this because they see they greater issue as being with the issues surrounding the non Irish sides, which is probably true and of greater importance. But it doesnt hide that the competition lacks intensity and is too lightly regarded by fans, players and teams. Evenif the non Irish teams somehow sorted out all their issues this aspect wont change.

Gordy wrote: Even the Irish teams who are currently enjoying success at the moment dont really prioritise it.

What does that actually mean. It gets repeated often enough but what does it mean? - define it.

Go to Pro12 site and do a quick scan of Pro12 history... the top sides from beginning to now. It tells you that the idea that Irish sides don't prioritise Pro12 is inaccurate. They've prioritised Pro12 position every bit as much as top AP sides have prioritised theirs.

SecretFly - "Res Ipsa Loquitor" - the facts speak for themselves. Why does anybody need to prove the Pro12 is rubbish? It is. If you can't accept that then there's no hope.

Glas a du wrote:SecretFly - "Res Ipsa Loquitor" - the facts speak for themselves. Why does anybody need to prove the Pro12 is rubbish? It is. If you can't accept that then there's no hope.

If you can't spot a good team from a bad one then there truly is no hope, yes.
No league has room for a "We're useless so we're not going to try" team.
No league really should have time for a "Well, if we had relegation then at least we useless sides could have a good fight about it" *Yawn* - yep, that's always interesting.
No league should have time for sides that might say "We need an excuse to want to win even though it's our ability that stopping us winning anyway" Cop out.

Attitudes of some of the followers, players and sides involved in Pro12 are the problem. Of course, those issues exist in all Leagues it's just that at least other leagues have the get-out-of-jail excuse of relegation to pretend the lower teams eternally worry the top ones.

Its ostrich and sand stuff and has been for some time. If you cant accept the reality that not having to qualify for the HC has a big influence on how competitve, intense and emphasised the league is then there really is no hope. One just has to look at Leinster in the respective HC semi and final and Rabo 12 playoffs last season.

Gordy wrote:Its ostrich and sand stuff and has been for some time. If you cant accept the reality that not having to qualify for the HC has a big influence on how competitve, intense and emphasised the league is then there really is no hope. One just has to look at Leinster in the respective HC semi and final and Rabo 12 playoffs last season.

You looked at it. Explain it to us.

SecretFly wrote:

Glas a du wrote:SecretFly - "Res Ipsa Loquitor" - the facts speak for themselves. Why does anybody need to prove the Pro12 is rubbish? It is. If you can't accept that then there's no hope.

If you can't spot a good team from a bad one then there truly is no hope, yes.
No league has room for a "We're useless so we're not going to try" team.
No league really should have time for a "Well, if we had relegation then at least we useless sides could have a good fight about it" *Yawn* - yep, that's always interesting.
No league should have time for sides that might say "We need an excuse to want to win even though it's our ability that stopping us winning anyway" Cop out.

Attitudes of some of the followers, players and sides involved in Pro12 are the problem. Of course, those issues exist in all Leagues it's just that at least other leagues have the get-out-of-jail excuse of relegation to pretend the lower teams eternally worry the top ones.

OK so what's your sanction for teams that fail the motivation for motivation's sake test?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Vince

The issue with that is why should 4 nations who hold a larger share combined than the other 2 nations added together get the same amount os HC spots??

Ireland, Wales,Scot, Italy deserve to be represented as much as Eng and fra are!!

This, this is the problem. Do you realise how absurd this sounds to the objective onlooker?

No I doubt he does as its a pretty legitimate point. Why should 4 unions be happy with the same allocation between them as 2???

Glas, I don't agree that it's the league formats fault that some teams are rubbish, underfunded and poorly attended. You might as well give the league format all the credit for some other teams being really good, well funded and well attended.

Glas a du wrote:
OK so what's your sanction for teams that fail the motivation for motivation's sake test?

It's you that says there should be a sanction. It's you that says sides need even more motivation than actually trying to do what should come most naturally to any side in any league and any player in any side - winning.

Not every side will win everything - obviously. But suggesting there are more legitimate reasons for wanting to win than others is just something I don't buy Glas.

Anything you every want to do in a league needs you to want to win. That motivation should be natural, a given.

You want to win the League title? You have to try to win.
You want to beat your local derby rivals to keep your local interest fans happy? You have to try to win.
You want to keep away from relegation? You have to try to win.
You want to get into a first six or eight for HEC qualification? You have to try to win.
You want to put yourself in a shop window as a Professional player? You have to try to win.
You want to interest the International coach in your ability as a player? You have to try to win.
You want to further your career as a coach? You have to try to win.
You want to help your prospects in the following year even though your prospects for the present one looks dire? You have to try to win.

Nothing any side does on a field requires anything else from them than to try and win their next game. That's the motivation. The solution to sides not trying is internal to those sides, not a League structure.

OK. Scottish teams get 6k weekly if they are both at home. That's 60k who'd go to watch Scotland, not crossing the road to see Scottish regions in the pro 12. 60k imbeciles who don't know what they are missing?

No league has room for a "We're useless so we're not going to try" team.
No league really should have time for a "Well, if we had relegation then at least we useless sides could have a good fight about it" *Yawn* - yep, that's always interesting.
No league should have time for sides that might say "We need an excuse to want to win even though it's our ability that stopping us winning anyway" Cop out.

I assumed you'd meant by this that such teams should be kicked out.

Of course teams want to win, but there is not enough of a reason not to lose in the Pro 12.

SirJohnnyEnglish wrote:No I doubt he does as its a pretty legitimate point. Why should 4 unions be happy with the same allocation between them as 2???

Because this is a professional sport not a kibbutz.

For a start its 'Res Ipsa Loquitur' not 'Res Ipsa Loquitor', and it doesn't mean the facts speak for themselves. At least use wikipedia if you are going to be condescending and patronising.