Can England start where they left off?

by englandglory4ever Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:51 am

First topic message reminder :

The final test against SA in the summer showed the England pack had started to develop a much harder edge to their game. They were more aggressive than they had previously been and it helped to put them in a position to win. Alas a draw but hey ho there were good signs. They need to be much more robust to compete with the SH sides.

Will England start where they left off and improve further? Will they only get back to that level by the end of the AI series? Or worse, not get back there at all?

The Hartley injury is a real blow. Tom Youngs is a good AP player but lineout throwing and his diminutive size go against him. He is out of the Lee Mears diddymen mold.

by Cumbrian Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:37 am

I'd like to see Lindsay in the squad too, he has the potential to be a really strong and destructive player. He has really worked on his throwing and it seems a lot better than last season too.

All being fit, I'd have Hartley, Lindsay and Youngs as the EPS hookers.

by johnpartle Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:38 am

Chjw131 wrote:
johnpartle wrote:Chjw131, but like you say a different era where Moore at 5ft9in had Jason Leonard and Jeff Probyn either side of him both at 5ft10in. It's not the scrummaging technique or power that people are raising, it's the physical issues that technique can't always overcome when faced with the best opposition. If people are making too much of it, then I've seen some pretty top scrummagers discuss it as a real concern in the past.

bluestonevedder, he might be more powerful, but he's not "a lot heavier", the premiership website list their weights as 100kg & 102kg and ESPN as 220lb & 224lb. Again though, that's not the issue that is being raised anyway.

Cumbrian, on one side, yes he is a closer fit, but on the other it's exactly the same as it was for Mears and it only takes one side to cause an issue.
.

Well if it was a simple as what you're claiming johnpartle, then do you think the best scrummaging coach in world rugby would've selected him in the front row?

I don't think he has much choice at present, almost all the other options are injured.

by johnpartle Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:43 am

bluestonevedder wrote:
johnpartle wrote:Chjw131, but like you say a different era where Moore at 5ft9in had Jason Leonard and Jeff Probyn either side of him both at 5ft10in. It's not the scrummaging technique or power that people are raising, it's the physical issues that technique can't always overcome when faced with the best opposition. If people are making too much of it, then I've seen some pretty top scrummagers discuss it as a real concern in the past.

bluestonevedder, he might be more powerful, but he's not "a lot heavier", the premiership website list their weights as 100kg & 102kg and ESPN as 220lb & 224lb. Again though, that's not the issue that is being raised anyway.

Cumbrian, on one side, yes he is a closer fit, but on the other it's exactly the same as it was for Mears and it only takes one side to cause an issue.

As someone above said, the physical stats of modern players are very exaggerated. There's clearly a visible difference between Youngs and Mears- Youngs looks and is a heck of a lot bigger, mostly because he's younger and the game has evolved.

Anyway, despite their 'similar' statures, they play a lot differently. Youngs is much more physcial, and a very strong scrummager. I think being more of a squat player actually is a distinct advantage in the scrum, if paired with equal strength.

So Mears weight is exaggerated but Youngs isn't? When was the last time you saw Mears & Youngs stand next to each other? Again not really a big issue in what I've been discussing though.

If paired with players of similar height I would agree with you.

by johnpartle Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:45 am

Cumbrian wrote:
Chjw131 wrote: Chjw131, but like you say a different era where Moore at 5ft9in had Jason Leonard and Jeff Probyn either side of him both at 5ft10in. It's not the scrummaging technique or power that people are raising, it's the physical issues that technique can't always overcome when faced with the best opposition. If people are making too much of it, then I've seen some pretty top scrummagers discuss it as a real concern in the past.

bluestonevedder, he might be more powerful, but he's not "a lot heavier", the premiership website list their weights as 100kg & 102kg and ESPN as 220lb & 224lb. Again though, that's not the issue that is being raised anyway.

Cumbrian, on one side, yes he is a closer fit, but on the other it's exactly the same as it was for Mears and it only takes one side to cause an issue.
.

I suppose what I would say to that is, he plays week in week out with Cole and I haven't really seen any evidence of their height difference being an issue.

When was the last time they played against an international front three?

by Cumbrian Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:51 am

Aside from Hartley, that argument could be levelled at any hooker that we've got. Literally all of them (unless you count Paice's couple of test four years ago).

All I can say is that they've played against very good front rows in Europe and in the AP and come out on top. The acid test will come later in the month. I'm not saying that they will dominate all and sundry, but I think they'll hold their own.

As an aside, people seem to be forgetting that Hartley isn't exactly renowned as a brilliant scrummaging hooker. Yet He, Marler and Cole managed to get on top against the Boks, I don't think we'll suffer beyond all recognition in the scrum if Youngs replaces Hartley.

by thomh Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:57 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:I would say Youngs most definately is rock steady at the scrum....lineout is a work in progress...but who else you gonna select...

Webber - Injured
Gray - Injured i believe...and in my eyes a good club player...little more.
George - Needs to get past Smit and Brits for club before even thinking about country
Lindsay - Im a BIG fan of his...powerhouse in tight and loose but attrocious lineout abilities
Mears - Lets not even go there!!
Haywood - See Gray
Buchanan - See Gray

Have i missed any?

He's outrageously competent though. Lineout, tackling, carrying, off-loading are all good, even if he's not a physical monster like other props. He'd be a handy guy to have around right now.

by thomh Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:59 am

johnpartle wrote:

When was the last time they played against an international front three?

Well the Northampton, Saracens and Quins front rows all contain all or mostly international players, and ones who play together a lot more than international front rows.

by Geordie Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:32 am

thomh wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:I would say Youngs most definately is rock steady at the scrum....lineout is a work in progress...but who else you gonna select...

Webber - Injured
Gray - Injured i believe...and in my eyes a good club player...little more.
George - Needs to get past Smit and Brits for club before even thinking about country
Lindsay - Im a BIG fan of his...powerhouse in tight and loose but attrocious lineout abilities
Mears - Lets not even go there!!
Haywood - See Gray
Buchanan - See Gray

Have i missed any?

He's outrageously competent though. Lineout, tackling, carrying, off-loading are all good, even if he's not a physical monster like other props. He'd be a handy guy to have around right now.

I understand what your saying and yes hes competant...but thats not what i want. Id far rather go for Youngs or Lindsay...inexperienced yes, raw yes...but their potential in my eyes (i may be very wide of the mark of course) is far greater than Grays...so rather than wasting these AI's on someone i dont forsee having a big international future it would be more benefitial to give the games and experience to those i seewho do.
Again thats just my opinion many others see Gray as a good potential international.

by mbernz Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:49 am

thomh wrote:
johnpartle wrote:

When was the last time they played against an international front three?

Well the Northampton, Saracens and Quins front rows all contain all or mostly international players, and ones who play together a lot more than international front rows.

Tigers haven't played Saints yet, lost to Quins and drew against Sarries, where the props were Marler, Johnston, Vunipola & Nieto. The only international prop there with more than a handful of caps is Nieto, who is definitely past his prime and was on the other side from Youngs and Cole. As I said in my post earlier in the thread, the challenge that the likes of the Franks, Woodcock, Mealamu, the du Plessis and Mtawarira will pose is a completely different kettle of fish. If there is something to be made of his height, they'll make it.

by DaveM Fri Nov 02, 2012 10:57 am

Maybe you could apply for Rowntree's job?

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