Have France Replaced The Springboks?

Traditionalists (and I expect emack to be here in a minute to give me a good telling off) will always espouse that the greatest rivalry in world rugby is South Africa versus New Zealand. Perenially the two greatest teams in the world, this rivalry is rich breeding ground for modern classics and provides a rich thread in the historic tapestry of the game, the classic 1995 rugby world cup final, the flower bomb incident, the Cavaliers tour, the great Fitzpatrick lead All Black team of 1996 taking their first series victory in SA. By golly they've had it all.

In the absence of the Springboks in the apartheid era and through their reintroduction in the early 90's this rivalry was largely usurped for a generation of young antipodean fans by the fierce Wallaby/All Black rivalry as the greatest Wallaby side of all time dominated NZ briefly. This probably culminated in the "greatest game of all time" as all time legend Jonah Lomu capped off a famous narrow NZ victory to usher in a new era of All Black dominance.

With South African rugby now fading badly, underlined by their humbling consecutive BlackWashes in the southern hemipshere competition and early exit from the 2011 RWC, and Australia seemingly unable to buy a victory over the Kiwis, have France now become NZ's greatest rivals?

France certainly have earned the moniker of the All Black "bogey team", ritually usurping them from rugby world cups, claiming the most recent series win on NZ soil and battling to the last second in the epic 2011 final. I personally am looking forward to the three match France series in NZ next year more than either the upcoming AIs, or Lions tour. The series may also coincide with NZ's attempt on their longest ever undefeated run, and they will be desperate to claim a home series win to put the ledger to rights.

I think Tonga might disagree with you

AWOP **Warning Stat Attack** NZ v SA P 85[43]W 48[30]D [3]L 34[14]56.67%[69.77%].RWC 1-2 33%
NZv France P51[19] W38[14] D 1[1]L12[4]74.51%[73.68%]RWC 4-2 66%
SA won versus a depleted NZ team 2011.France ditto 2009
France have won 4 games in NZ only 1 in the pro era 2009
Draw you own conclusions,BUT the answer is NO by the book ,having said that.IF France decide to play on there daythey can beat ANY one but that is a big IF.

Sigh, Yes AWOP, France are the main rivals to New Zealand.

emack2 wrote:AWOP **Warning Stat Attack** NZ v SA P 85[43]W 48[30]D [3]L 34[14]56.67%[69.77%].RWC 1-2 33%
NZv France P51[19] W38[14] D 1[1]L12[4]74.51%[73.68%]RWC 4-2 66%
SA won versus a depleted NZ team 2011.France ditto 2009
France have won 4 games in NZ only 1 in the pro era 2009
Draw you own conclusions,BUT the answer is NO by the book ,having said that.IF France decide to play on there daythey can beat ANY one but that is a big IF.

Which are you most looking forward to Emack? The AI's or the three match France tour in NZ next year?

As an Englishman...i dont see NZ v SA as the greatest rivalry...but thanks for coming

AWOP every NZ match, I count losses not wins but looking forward to the Ai`s especially as they have`nt lost at Test level since England 2002.BUT France without Captain Tackles means a test for a new skipper and a 7.

Ummmm, nup

Never has been and never will be. Don't reckon there's enough common ground or history to strike up a rivalry. They're just that team that occasionally beats us in RWCs.

They're probably my least favourite team because of the ball grabbing, gouge, shirt debacle, bastereud, rainbow warrior bombing, try-hard haka responses and pacific nuclear testing.

Don't really have any emotional connection with France to warrant a rivalry, they're just France, sometimes good, mostly mediocre and underhanded.

GF I'd say in terms of global rugby supremacy it definitely is, but of course there are other contenders as far as rivalry goes. England vs Wales is right up there, as is France vs themselves...

France are the most successful NH side versus NZ but England are due to win once every 10 years 1973,83.93,03.

emack2 wrote:AWOP every NZ match, I count losses not wins but looking forward to the Ai`s especially as they have`nt lost at Test level since England 2002.BUT France without Captain Tackles means a test for a new skipper and a 7.

But which one are you looking forward to most? NZ v Scotland, or NZ v France next year?

disneychilly wrote:GF I'd say in terms of global rugby supremacy it definitely is, but of course there are other contenders as far as rivalry goes. England vs Wales is right up there, as is France vs themselves...

Superb, made me chuckle

I agree when I saw this morning that a 3 match test series against France is happening next year in June, I did feel it was a mouthwatering prospect AWOP. Especially as the first test is at Eden Park where the French almost senaked away with the greatest heist since the Great Train Robbery.


But I'd say a 3 match test series against SA would provoke the same reaction. Unfortunately with the 3N and 4N, this tour will never happen now.

As for the greatest rivalry, that is subjective. In terms of win ratio, SA and NZ are the closest of heavyweight rivals but many wouldn't really care outside those two nations who won.

anotherworldofpain wrote: This probably culminated in the "greatest game of all time" as all time legend Jonah Lomu capped off a famous narrow NZ victory to usher in a new era of All Black dominance.

Yes that was a good game AWOP, but let's not forget the return in Wellington with Eales's wobblier that won the game, and the cup!!

Agree with OzT, AWOP you're talking crap mate NZ only got the Bledisloe back in 03. That game was in 00. I was at the return fixture after Kaplan played an hour of injury time and Eales broke our hearts. Not so forgettable if you're at the ground. Would rather have been at the first one...

There again you guys have held it sine 2003, and last couple of years very comfortably too!!

Not being at the ground but watching it on the screen I think you slightly exaggerated a bit there disneychild, I'm sure it was only 55 minutes....

Haha yeah. Well it was about 8 minutes I recall. Didn't go as slowly as the last 30 of last year's final but to be honest I'd rather choose that result over a BC win

They're always bloody hard though mate, I'm glad we haven't underestimated you so that you've nicked it off us.

Looks like it's quite happy amongst all its mates:

http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/image/171940.html?page=1

After the Brisbane test there were a few new AB shirts with Australia Is Gay instead of AIG going round the internet. The rivalry is with anyone who has the temerity, audacity or any other -ity word you can think of to knock us off our top perch.

The Lions, Wales, England, France, Australia and SA have all beaten us. The Barbarians as well if you count those matches. The World XV in our centenary year as well which probably caught us in one of our lowest troughs. Out of that lot, SA is clearly out in front. In our frail, insecure minds (like in RWC years) France and Australia leap up the board in terms of fear stakes. Wales and England are simmering away in the background like a near extinct volcano knowing that a big one is long overdue and is only a matter of time. For all the rest, there's indifference or utter perplexity as to how they've never managed to beat us.

Another useless bit of info-Rhodesia beat us once on a tour of Africa. So I think it makes six countries, the Lions and the World XV that knocked us over.

I think NZ don't worry about the countries that haven't beaten us so much-they prepare no differently to a game against SA I reckon save player specs and let the record f*ck with those guys.

Don't you just love that pic though Kia? Been a long time since the cabinet was full ie having every trophy available to the ABs. Was very jealous when SA had it in 09 that's for sure!

Too right. Feels good to have a gold one in particular. Now just need to win one away from home as apparently winning at home is all too easy... Except when it's before the tournament and people say the ABs will choke because there's more pressure to win at home.

Would be nice to be the first to win back to back RWCs. But I imagine that's a very tough ask as SA, France, Australia and England fancy their chances. Wales are dark horses and you just know somewhere in there is an upset waiting to happen. Such a lottery because how much of the 2011 team should be in the 2015 team? Hopefully a few but also not too many.

I always retort by asking if it's so easy to win WCs at home how come England Wales Aussie and France didn't do so?

The NZ side isn't the finished article at all-I don't get that vibe from them like I did in 1996 2006 or 2010. I think that makes their unbeaten year all that more impressive. But I'm worried we'll get a helluva wake up call somewhere along the track and how we respond to that will be the making of this side. But a kick in the jacksie may do us the world of good if we are to do well in 2015.

Doing well is of course winning the thing again. Nothing else is acceptable.

From a French point of View RWC 1999 was there best result,one I thought the All Blacks lost rather than France Won work that one out?to much complacencyby the ABs in the second half being that much in front at half time.SA v NZ is by result the closest ,once it was NZ v Wales,v Australia is the greatest number of matches between.Also the NSW Waratahs were big rivals pre Second world war.NSW and NSW Country had some notable victories v Touring Teams.The !928 Waratahs Europe tour was pretty successful too.Would love the return of old style tours but because of the RWC never happen now.Scotland i`m Looking forward too because think the ABs havwe points to prove after Brisbane.As an Anglo -Scot a tiny bit of me wants a Scotland win but only a tiny bit.

On average the All Blacks have lost 2 matches most years since the 15 match format started.I predicted 2 this year based on that and thought away to Boks in 4N and 3rd Bledisloe would be it.1997 is the last time they went unbeaten all year but there were fewer matches then,2006 was 1.2013 could well be the year considering the squad building SA/Aus have this year.Because at full strength there is little between the teams.Most of the squad Core will be there in 2015 maybe even Kaino and SBW back in the mix.Richard Kahui is still young enough to replace Conrad Smith if you can him fit enough

Agree about Kahui. ALL class. So frustrating and Smith would have a serious rival for best in class in his position. At least he timed his healthy period well enough to get a WC medal!

If McCaw plays 6 we won't need Kaino.

disneychilly wrote:
Don't you just love that pic though Kia? Been a long time since the cabinet was full ie having every trophy available to the ABs. Was very jealous when SA had it in 09 that's for sure!

Didn't the Wallabies have a full cabinet in 1999? Also that year Oz had the cricket and rugby league world cups in other cabinets.. talking of which we need to get that league one back soon as!!!

** just yanking your kiwi chains... **

England must have had a full cabinet in 2003, having won the Grand Slam and World Cup. They had retained the Cook Cup in June that year, and the slam brought the Calcutta Cup and Triple Crown.

All World Cup winners so far have claimed the hypothetical Raeburn Shield but it would be possible for that not to happen.

In a future World Cup, the Shield holder might go out at the group stages without having lost a match. If they registered 2 wins and a draw, or a win and two draws, they could be eliminated by sides with more bonus points. Having not lost, they would retain the Shield and so it wouldn't be at stake in the World Cup final.

The next winner of the Raeburn Shield will be whichever team first beats New Zealand:

http://www.raeburnshield.com/page5.php

Also spotted that New Zealand had the Junior World Championship in their cabinet when they won the Cup. It was first contested in 2008 so it wasn't at stake before.

It was also the first one out of the cabinet when South Africa claimed the title by beating the Baby Blacks earlier this year.

Incidentally, anyone know how the winner of the Dave Gallaher trophy will be calculated next year? Will it be simply whichever side wins 2 out of 3, with New Zealand retaining it in the event of a drawn series, or will there be a cumulative points total calculation to settle it?

Yup RF England definitely would have had a full cabinet.

OzT the All Blacks won the Tri Nations in 99. Sorry mate. Also sorry about the league, but now you know how we feel with the rugby-where everyone knows you have the best side you just don't have the trophy to prove it! Such a cheese off. I'd say you'll get it back next year but we do have Johnson, Benji and Sonny Bill so hopefully you don't get it all your own way.

Your cricketers had everything for a while that's for sure!

Keep yanking mate...

Ogmore Vale v Pontycymmer

errrm disney, sorry mate but I think the wallabies had the cup from 1998 to 2003 when you won it back, sorry!!!

http://www.allblacks.com/news/10521/History-of-the-Bledisloe-Cup

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bledisloe_Cup

yes yes yes!!!!

Erm 1998-2002 OZ T 2003 to date the AllBlacks have owned it,too.

OzT you're talking about the Bledisloe. You kept that but didn't win the 3N. Same with 98 as SA swept all before them.