The most "talented" thread...

[lydian]

1...amongst the baseliners in 2nd half of the top 10 (I don't include Tsonga) who is most talented? (Shot making ability) from:
Ferrer
Berdych
Del Potro
Tipsarevic
I'd go Berdy, Tipsy, DP, Daveeed. Think Tomas has great ball striking ability, very clean technique and is a genuine multi surface threat for all major events...Tipsy has great natural ability although isnt mentally as tough as the others, DP hits huge with massive levers but he can't take the ball as early...Ferrer is the highest ranked and most consistent...he has an advantage on clay too over the others where his natural clay movement stands out but he struggles on quick surfaces, e.g. grass.

2. Most talented current player not to win a slam?
Berdych

3. Most talented player 21 and under?
I would still say Goffin...we'll need to see about Janowicz

[User 774433]

1. Berdych
2. Del Potro
3. Ferrer
4. Tipsarevic

[lydian]

Good shout IMBL, can I ask why Ferrer over Tipsy?

[User 774433]

It's a difficult question to answer.
Firstly we have to ask, what makes a player 'talented.'

I have seen occasions in the past from people (not you Lydian) who fabricate an artificial definition of the word 'talent' in order to suit their specific agenda.

I think this thread is very interesting, and it also provides two parallel debates. I suspect the answer to the question 'what is talent' is in-fact more influential than the assets of the actual players themselves.

[lydian]

Good point IMBL, and I thought when I put the word "talented" in the title that it could be a bone of contention. I've argued it myself in the past...and usually concluded it was about winning matches...in the case Ferrer would win given he's the highest ranked but that wouldn't make for a discussion.

For this I'm looking at ball striking ability...FH, BH, consistency, power, taking it early, variety, and playing shots under pressure. If we looked at it mentally then Ferrer would and should win but again that's an easy debate to have.

I think Tomas makes power look easy, his timing is immaculate...probably has all shots in the top 5 and can take the ball so early which is what makes him awkward for Federer. I also think Tipsy is a great early ball taker...his main issue is upstairs but he's very close to Delpo. Ferrer is probably the least able in terms of outright shot making ability, his FH isn't technically great...more a product of drilling but we know his strengths lie elsewhere. Another side-thread to this is which player should be in the top10 who isn't currently. Haas? Simon? Nalby (probably too post-peak now)?

[laverfan]

1. Ferrer
2. del Potro
3. Berdych
4. Tipsarevic

[laverfan]

Haas should be in Top 10.

[lydian]

Agree LF, and what a shame his career is given the problems back in 2003(?).

And perhaps we should include Tsonga as well...I'd place him mid-way as think his BH is a little suspect vs the others but its made up for by his FH and net skills.

[lydian]

But is Haas now, since Murray won one, the best current player never to win a slam? I think Berdy...

[laverfan]

But is Haas now, since Murray won one, the best current player never to win a slam? I think Berdy...

I think Tsonga and Berdych could also make that claim in the current list.

PS: Can I add Soderling even though he is currently out with injury?

[HM Murdock]

I think there's a conceptual problem with this question.

For instance, I think the single best shot out of those four players is Del Potro's forehand. I love it.

If that forehand is some kind of innate ability that comes naturally to him, the tendency is to call it talent.

But what if that forehand is the result of millions of repetitions, over which it was gradually sculpted and honed into shape? Is that still talent?

If it's not, then it seems impossible to judge talent without knowing how much the players put in to acquiring their skills.

If it is, then how does "who is the most talented" differ from "who is the best"?

It's a philosophical conundrum!

[Guest]

From shotmaking perpective:

Berdych (better shotmaker off the BH than DP, better movement makes him dangerous from any part of the court. I think he's main flaws are a relatively weak net game, awful first serve percentage and of course between the ears)

Del Potro
Tipsy (close between him and DP)
Ferrer

Best current player not to win a slam - Berdych. With his game he really should be a multiple slam champ. Alas, he has always been a a bit of a choker.

I don't agree that Ferrer is a mental rock. He can be very flaky and I've seen him on numerous occasions collapse towards the end. He is however very resilient in that he'll keep running and chasing, but he's not a great closer, albeit he seems to have imrpoved in that regard over the last couple of years.

[lydian]

Soderling is a great call LF. Any news on him?

HM, I agree! And there is a great book by Matthew Syed that states talent is a myth, you merely need to drill practice shots. I'm not so sure about that and what about the "talent" in wanting to practice to enormous lengths? There are certain times in matches where guys play shots on the run, or at break points that make you sit back in wonder. However, can these even be drilled?

If that philosophical point was true does it mean everyone is born equal to play tennis? I just dont agree with that and some players do look more drilled than others. But are looks deceiving?

Also DP uses a ridiculously powerful Wilson racquet...Berdy probably has a better FH if tech is taken out of it.

[lydian]

I think we see things pretty similarly there emancipator.
Yes, Ferrer can flake at times although I still think given his game skill isn't as deep as the others he needs a large mental reservoir to compete in the top10 as he does. Against the top 4 he certainly is suspect to collapses, particularly when serving.

What a shame about Berdy. I like watching him greatly but he frustrates the hell out of me. That high ball toss on serve is the bane of his life...and cost him dearly at USO once the winds came.

[lydian]

BTW, interesting fact of the day about Tipsy. With his retirement vs Janowicz that now means he's retired from a match in every Slam, the Olympics, Davis Cup and 4 out of 9 masters.

Wow

[User 774433]

Lad just retires as soon as he's about to lose, so it's not too surprising.

[laverfan]

Soderling is a great call LF. Any news on him?

Unfortunately, not much except the usual recovery from Mono. Despite posters' view of him as a ball basher, personally, I like him.

The Soderlings (Robin and Jenni) and Baghdatises (Marcos and Karolina (Sprem - tennis player)) became proud parents - http://www.tennisperspective.com/2012/10/robin-soderling-marcos-baghdatis-become-fathers.html#more-9066

Very happy for these two pairs of parents.

[Danny_1982]

I tend to associate touch, feel, variety and awareness as barometers of talent, rather than who can hit it hard. Not that striking with pace isn't a talent, but that's just how I look at it.

To get to my definition of most talented you'd almost need a 60mph speed limit on shots, reducing the 'bigger guy blasting people off court' possibility and bringing it down to who is the best at using the court and placing their shots.

Based on my perhaps odd judging methods, I'd put Ferrer top.

[invisiblecoolers]

Tipsy
Del Potro
Ferrer
Berdych

Tipsy has a got a great talent and when his game flows he can't stand up with the best and even beat them. I still remember the AO 2008 match against Fed, his 2007 match against Gonzo [one of the best match he played], last year WTF match against Djoko.

Del Potro easily the 2nd best , when he completely gets his match fitness back he will be a real threat, he can play drops, slices, gr8 returns and ofcourse wonderful serve. Very fluent in Back Hand wing and breath taking in forehand wing.

Ferrer, has some skills, he got good inside out forehand, running forehand and backhands and ofcourse a skill to control the pace of the game.

Berdych is the only one among the 4 listed I see as useless talent. He relies heavily on his ball striking power and if it clicks can beat any one on his day, but unfortunately he could never do it for one given tournament on a big stage, and I see as the most boring player among the four.
If you put who the besst mover among the 6'5 plus , yes he easily ranks the no.1, coz he does flee like a bird even given his height.

[LuvSports!]

haha i think i know who you are referring to IMBL

[The Special Juan]

I notice that "Mr Talented" himself is missing..... Reechard. I don't like him; for such a good player he's the definition of a "wasted talent".

Del Potro
Berdych
Ferrer
Tipsarevic

This is the way I see it. Fully fit DelPo can boast a major win which the other 3 can't. I think he's getting better and better and will be a huge threat next year, if not at the first 2 majors then definitely the US Open.

Berdych and Ferrer are difficult to separate. Berdbrain with improved movement is a Top 3 player but as his movement lets him down, the best can exploit that. I'd be interested to know his H2H v Ferrer who is the best at getting someone to move about the court. I don't agree that he's the best mover of the tall guys, he tends to take one step the wrong way and doesn't move well side to side, especially the forehand side. But with his ball striking ability and power, plus a pretty good serve when it works, he's more capable of beating the top 4 than Daveed.

Ferrer I like. I used to hate him and find his game boring but after a while I've come to appreciate how good it is. Sure he might not have one shot that is a great weapon but his movement is, IMO, second only to Djokovic. He's made the most out of his game, but based on "talent" (which I define as shot making) he can't be near the top.

Tipsy..... I've not actually seen as much of him as the other 3. To me, he lacks fitness. I've seen the post which says how many matches he's withdrawn from. That either strikes me as a bad loser or someone who's fitness is holding him back. Still, next year I expect him to go back to being a journeyman. Sorry Tipsy.

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