ABs or RBs? Which do you prefer?

Well it seems like NZ's best squad will march out against Wales and England and some relatively young and new faces will play Scotland and Italy. Among those new faces might well be Coles at hooker, Faumuina and Crockett at prop, the experienced but seemingly past his use date Ali Williams, Cane at openside, Vito at 8 or 6, Kerr-Barlow at halfback, Barrett at flyhalf, Ellison at inside centre Ben Smith at outside centre or wing and Savea (Gear's experience may win out over the younger Savea). It'll be interesting to see which faces are included this weekend and with what experience they are blended.

Rotation has been a dirty word for Hansen for much of this year and many of the news faces that appeared in the team were enforced by injury. He rightly acknowledges that Wales and England will provide NZ's sternest tests in this autumn series but will he be reminded of the last time NZ faced Scotland and Italy in similar circumstances with both Scotland and Italy gaining ascendancy in the set piece over a makeshift pack and making life difficult for the outside backs?

How far, therefore, will Hansen move towards playing the entire squad on this trip? How much faith does he place in players like Crockett who and Vito who for different reasons have been exposed at international level? The backs like Smith and Ellison seem to be a safer bet but both of them together seems too much to ask of them. Especially if Barrett gets a run and Kerr-Barlow. Smith might give Dagg a rest but there seems to be a lot of potential for green players still wet behind the years.

So does the prospect of facing up to the Rotations Blacks or the Green Blacks fill Scottish (and Italian if there are any) posters with a bit more hope? Last time they faced a few new AB players but SBW set up half the tries scored and Scottish fans are probably glad to see him tucked away injured at the moment in Japan. But is there a feeling that the ABs may take the first two legs of this tour a little too lightly and might send out teams that can be attacked in the set piece and disrupted in general play? If a truly rotated squad is announced this weekend, do you Scottish lads fancy your chances? Or would you prefer to face a top AB side and do to them what Australia did in the last match at Brisbane and make them look ordinary?

If the Abs do send out a rotated squad this week against Scotland, that will send out that the Abs are being complacent. ( taking teams) for granted. And that is not like the Abs to be honest.

The Abs have not taken any tean for granted. Why Because they want to main tain their winning streak. And they could just come unstuck.

And if they do lose too an NH team in these Ais. that will be a bigger disgrace than losing the RWC.

They cannot use the same squad four weeks consecutively. England have the same problem. You need some new blood in key positions there at some stage. It is a balancing act. Hansen won't be taking any team lightly I think but he can't play all of his best players the whole four matches. So what blend will he go for over those four matches? If he does take a gamble and put in a weaker pack like he did in part for Australia in Brisbane, he could come unstuck. Will he have learned from that experience or the one up in Scotland where Crockett started and a young Ben Franks I seem to recall?

As for losing to a NH team being a bigger disgrace than losing the RWC, I don't see where you get that. We haven't lost in a November match since 2002 but that's not to say it can't happen.

Kia

I do agree that Hansen will not beable to play his first team for all 4 games.

But if he decides to rest most of his first team aginst the likes of Scotland, he may well come unstuck.

The Abs may not have lost in november since 2002. But if Hansens becomes complcent by playing a weakend tem. Well you never know.

It is realy hard for a coach as to when to introduce new players in to the squad. But i guess it will depend and how desperate the coach is to blood new players as to what type of chance he is prepaired to take.

majesticimperialman wrote: that will be a bigger disgrace than losing the RWC.

'Disgrace' is obviously a term in the eye of the beholder. Would we swap the world cup for a win to either Ireland or Scotland?

Hardly.

Methinks you belittle your own and neighbours a little there...

I heard Hansen say the entire squad will have played by the second match at some point which when including anything from 'last seconds' plus at the end of a match isnt exactly confirming complacency.

Only two things might alter that plan- a first up loss against Scotland or either match still in doubt within 15 minutes of the end- neither a likely scenario on paper.

Its only because the two perceived weaker sides are the first two that this is even in his thinking. Not an issue I reckon.

I expect the ABs to send out a development team before The Wales game, get a scare, get the home media on their backs for rotating, then send the big boys out against Wales and answer the critics by giving us a shafting! Like what happened to Wales against Australia (lost to Scotland at home and had a point to prove when we faced them in the summer).

Hi Kia,Hansen has indicated there will be rotation BUT after Brisbane would be surprised if it is big versus Scotland.Who says they will all start Faumina was the weak link in the front row versus Australia.Wyatt Crockett would rate among the best four looseheads in World Rugby higher probably .Four Props are allowed under new rules,faumina has already started.Ben Franks and Crockett starting with Coles.Owen and Woodcock on the bench.Start Retalick and Williams,with Whitelock on the Bench.McCaw will probably be rested versus Italy,with Thomson starting at 7 and Cane on the bench.Hansen and co have`nt dropped too many goolies to date and there are only two new boys.
Williams you no longer rate he is short of fitness and WAS one of the best Locks NZ ever fielded.Weepu starting with Kerr -Barlow on the seems you have little faith in your Auckland lads.Have faith don`t expect walkovers in any match but this is very strong squad.

Yeah I dont see any weaknesses there other than Ali the magician, who seems to have a hold on the selectors- even his Auckland reappearance was a mare- couldnt get his lineout right (where have I heard that before?).

No worries first two matches. This side will be well rested, injury free and hummimg for a game by the time they play Scotland. Plus they wont play two bad ones in a row. Keer Barlow's jumping out of his skin and behind this side is the type that could stand out significantly, the showman he is.

emack2 wrote:
Williams you no longer rate he is short of fitness and WAS one of the best Locks NZ ever fielded.

So was Meads, and to be honest...for the next match it'd be a toss up between the two.

Academic anyway WE don`t pick the team who was it who told me TRUST the AB Coaches?

I'm not saying all of those possibilities will play on the weekend. But I'd be surprised if Carter and McCaw play. The front row is a concern as Crockett has been singled out by refs before. Williams and Weepu shouldn't be on this tour in my opinion and haven't done anything to justify their inclusion this year. Harsh but true. If Hansen says the entire squad will get a run I'd be surprised if he starts any of the new blood against either Wales or England so that means the first two tests. I rate a lot of this young talent coming through but that doesn't mean I want to see them all or a large positional chunk of them playing together. The way I see it, the more sense it makes to introduce the likes of Beauden Barrett against Wales or England to see what they're made of and have the safety of more experienced players like Carter on the bench. Psychologically it must be difficult to have someone like McCaw or Carter come on in the second half when you're feeling the pinch.

I think two of Carter, McCaw and Read will play against Scotland and the odd one out is skip for the Italy game.

So you have Scotland first up, Wales third. When do NZ play the other two?

I'll bet you a pint disneychilly that Read is captain against both Scotland and Italy and Carter is the odd one out.

Scotland, Italy, Wales and England in that order Morgannwg over 4 consecutive weekends.

Suits the All Blacks then, getting ripe just in time to face Wales...

emack2 wrote:Academic anyway WE don`t pick the team who was it who told me TRUST the AB Coaches?

As with anythng there are always exceptions- Ali's selection is standing out like a sore thumb in these parts- topping polls like the 'luckiest' player of the year etc. How is his experience valuable here when they have a 35 test lock and two others with several against top line sides already this year.

You would be lucky to find one good game in Ali's last 10 matches at any level where it was rated above 'poor' or 'average' at best.

Only logical answer is he has a history with Hansen that is getting him in the side.

I prefer BBs. The Beaten Blacks.

How do you know you'd prefer them as BBs?

I'll know at the end of this month.

Going to finally bring it this time? We've gone through a fair few watches waiting for you to knock us over.

Love the fighting talk Could well be the year!

Morgannwg wrote:I prefer BBs. The Beaten Blacks.

Morgan, I'm not sure if you realise it but the ABs havent been beaten in the AIs up in the UK for 10 years.

Well Laurie nothing wrong with stating a preference for the BBs rather than the CABs Conquering All Blacks.

See Hansen has been talking up Scotland going on a charm offensive. I'm looking forward to seeing this Gray lad along with players like Denton go up against the ABs.

Don't mind a bit of rotation in non-RWC years, it's the time to do it. Don't want to end up like Oz with all their fatigue related injuries. Could really put a halt on momentum if players pick up niggly or long-term injuries. It's been a long year for some.

Hope it's a good game v wales, and by good, I mean a right royal walloping of wales

Who knows? If we are there for the taking as some say, it could be a win for wales, but we'll see.

Why the fuss about Chris Rattue?

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10845100

I hate that type of arrogance. I suppose Rattue would next suggest that the All Blacks don't play pool matches against "underserved" teams.

These "undeserved" teams should just roll over and by default give them 5 log points. The points difference can work on the average beatings of the past.

Saying that the AB's should select their weakest team, might just haunt him. Australia did that twoce in the last two years and were beaten by Scotland and Samoa.

I am sorry but this is just not done. Have some respect.

Agree with that biltong, well and truly over the top. Usually don't mind Rattue, ever since he dropped the Deans crusade, but this article is out of order.

Looks like Rattue wants to fire up Scotland? I doubt the ABs will read it so are unlikely to feel the pressure from its promise of an easy win. France used our media to fire them up for the RWC final, that nearly backfired!

Yep, the reason why sport across the world has such a strong following is simply because at the end of the day it is unpredictable.

There are different outcomes in every match.

Scotland may well get a hiding again, or, they might rock up and stifle the All Blacks and the match can come down to the wire.

History is full of upsets, like when we drew against Argentina when we have never previously lost to them, nobody expected that.

Nobody expected us to beat the Wallabies in the opening match of the 1995 RWC, but we did.

Nobody expected France to put up the fight they did in the final last year.

These things glue us to our TV's and our seats, becuase you just never know.

Biltong/Ebop

Maybe the article should be read through the eyes of an Auckland Polynesian? They do make up some contribution to the readership of the rugby section of The New Zealand herald...

Laurie, from what I have seen from Polynesians, they are humble , religious people, not arrogant.

Yes, they not only are humble people with strong christian beliefs, but make a big contribution to rugby, not only in NZ but also from a global perspective.

The point of the article , in my eyes. is to portray the inaction by both the NZRFU and IRB towards the development of rugby in the Pacific Island nations. Its not arrogance or a "put down " of Scottish rugby. However should Scotland beat the All Blacks this weekend it would probably be one of the best things for rugby to occur this year, both inside and outside of Scotland.

I see nothing wrong with promoting and questioning the importance the IRB sees in Pacific Island rugby, but not at the expense of being disrespectful to another nation.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Biltong, Scotland is one of the countries that voted against New Zealands remit for players who represent a tier one nation being able in the twilight of their careers being allowed to play for a tier two country ie Samoa, Tonga etc.

The honeys been tried.

The draw compels NZ to rotate, I don't think it's about "disrespect" or "being complacent".

In fact it's a word of respect to say "we can't play two NH sides in 6 days" and squad management is needed.

I'm expecting NZ to keep the back row in tact for Scotland, where Scotland will challenge. And use the better platform to allow rotation behind the back and out wide where NZ should reasonably expect to dominate.

The front line scrum will be required for Italy and Williams is likely to get action where wily ways and experience will win out over youth and athletic talent.

Lets face it, the "rotated" AB backline should be a match for anyone in the world anyway. It's in the tight and the backrow where NZ will drop in class through the absence of the irreplaceable McCaw and the rawness in the second row.

Isn't Brad Thorn still over in these parts of the world? I reckon if anyone the ABs should make an exception for him and allow him to have played the role they hope Williams will (but let's face it, won't).

Brad Thorn dont you mean BRAD THORN.

The lock that should be over there is Craig Clark.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Brad Thorn dont you mean BRAD THORN.

The lock that should be over there is Craig Clark.

Yes. Possibly BRAD THORN

Craig Clark? Really? Make a case ...

case being.

Brad Thorn is still playing for Fukuoka.

Ali Williams has played about three games since June, I dont think hes gone 80 mins once.

Craig Clark as the quiet, hard, tough, lock who smashes bodies at the breakdown, as mobile as Whitelock, wins lineouts, plays 80 minutes and not only captained the Waikato Chiefs to victory but also locked a scrum that matched anything that any other scrum in Super XV threw at them. oh and while I'm on it captained Taranaki in the ITM.

If it was a one of test match then sure, play your best XV... if not then you have to manage your team to get the best results overall.

NZ have had a long season and have quite an old (at least in playing years) team.. you can't expect guys like McCaw and Carter to play all 4 games anymore, not in these conditions and after the season they've had.

Its not disrespectful, its reality. If the shoes were on the other foot then we would do the same thing.

Why is it not disrespectful for ENG to play a 2nd string vs Fiji but it is for NZ to play Scotland... the gulf in class is probably relatively the same?

I recall back to my First XV school days when we played a top national public school team. My side was v. good but we were not deemed presitgious enough to warrant their first XV.... we were peeved and took it out on their 2nd side both on the points board and in the hits department... we were so psyched up that a number of their boys had to leave the field and we even had a player sent off for over zealous play.

Not that I condone violence but the opposition learnt their lesson and we played their first XV the next year... that is the challenge for Scotland and Italy... put in such a performance that NZ won't dare rotate next time around.

You have to earn respect on the rugby field.

Lets be honest, fellas, NZ could field a 'B' team (or 'A' if you prefer more traditional nomenclature) and still thump Scotland

Lets be honest, fellas, NZ could field a 'B' team (or 'A' if you prefer more traditional nomenclature) and still thump Scotland

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Lets be honest, fellas, NZ could field a 'B' team (or 'A' if you prefer more traditional nomenclature) and still thump Scotland

whether that is true or not mate, no need for journo's to be that disrespectful.

I can see how you interpret his piece as disrespectful, but does he not make a good point?

I think most people would term the piece as disrecpectful Laurie. It's not the first time your mate Rats has ruffled a few feathers-recall the village idiots quote or "France pose absolutely no threat to NZ". But journos are there to incite debate so he's doing his job in that respect.

I'm in favour of splitting the leadership group into two for the Italy and Scotland games but obviously Scotland pose the greater threat. After all, we failed to beat Australia last time, and they didn't. That HAS to be given a degree of respect. I'd like to see the same approach as in 2010.

Theoretically we could get the top team to play all four but we need to give others exposure, and the top XV would destroy Italy giving no benefits to either team post game.

She's all eggs in one basket for Wales though. Quite nervous about that game.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I can see how you interpret his piece as disrespectful, but does he not make a good point?

Sorry Laurie, but no.

He is using his disrespect of scotland to "yawn" about the NH tour.

Then he brings in the Islands.

That is not how you make a point in my view.

If you want to rag or bring down the Scots, then how does that strnegthen your case?

He doesn't make the justifiable connections.

Firstly NZ travels to the NH and them to NZ as a reciprical financial agreement. that is how they keep the game professional first and formost, without those tests NZ cannot sustain their finances.

If he wants to make a case for the Pacific Islands (which is a seperate matter all together) then he should write an article about how the Pacific Islands are being shortchanged.

Now the solution is not a tour to the Islands in November. Why becuase at this stage there is no money in it for either team.

Example, the Samoa vs Scotland game, wasn't even on TV in June in SA, none of the matches in the Islands were on TV.

There is the first problem. If the Islands can't afford or don't have the equipment to transmit sport then that should be the first issue sorted (funded, sponsored whatever) by the IRB.

Once that situation is solved, there re now financial incentives for teams to tour there.

then the next step is how to incorporate the Islands into the Super XV, and or Rugby Championship.

From there the sport can develop and become either semi professional or fully professional in some part in the islands.

Not sure what all the rotation fuss is about. It's pretty standard for the AB's to mix and match teams on the NH tours. The teams that play Italy and Scotland are understrength as coaches trial some players and give others a rest. Rotation is part and parcel of professional sport. It's an opportunity for Scotland.

Rattue's a shock jock, rather than a journalist. He's up there with Stephen Jones or Reason. I have no doubt that all the criticisms of him are accurate. Just another poor article by him.

biltong
I dont mind him using the disrespect to provoke thought, however in doing so he should also cede that these tours for New Zealand are commercial reality and to that end scotland is doing New zealand a service, and that should be mentioned.

It strengthens the case, by keeping the Pacific Island rugby nations issue in front of World rugby attention.and there is no better time than to do this than this week, at the start of this round of games in the UK.

I dont mind him using the disrespect to provoke thought

well then we won't agree on much.

What he is doing is creating the notion of "disrespect" by creating the straw man that rotation=disrespect. This way if NZ suffer a shock loss to Scotland or Italy he can write an article about how stupid the AB coaches were to be so "disrespectful" and strengthen his campaign for having Robbie Deans as AB coach.

Unless you are blind the All Blacks have been rotating players all year,the Front row for example 4 Props in the match squad now.Every match squad 4 of the 5 props are established test players,only Stu Dickenson has had serious problems with Wyatt Crockett and Mike Cron sorted those problems.Hore or Mealamu weakening the starting side?.Carter starting with Cruden on the Bench or Barrett with Cruden hardly weakening it .BackRow certainly is weaker without RM no question but they have two hardened utility back rows to support a rooky 7.THE two players under the microscope are Ali Williams and Weepu both have little form the other 3 locks now have test experience versus the best in the world.IF Ali can`t perform no doubt a convenient injury would be the answer .A crisis call to the Maori squad and Jason Eaton is available not a bad sub if required.
Realistically unlike SA and Aus who from injuries have had to expand there squads.NZ has been relatively few a total of 9 I think,injuries early season meant the like of Andre tataylor and T.J Perenara wer`nt given a chance of being picked.
ONLY during the July or November window can an AB Coach experiment. With due respect the 3Ns sides are mostly a more difficult problem than NH sides.

Laurie I think you're on thin ice mate as I seem to recall you had a volcanic reaction to Stephen Jones mouthing off NZ. Put yourself in a Scot's shoes reading that bilge on the other side of the world and I don't think your first reaction would be 'hmmm that's a thought provoking argument.'

Rotation is inevitable on this tour. All the teams who play four matches will do it. The question is what balance of experience and youth / inexperience / lack of form in the case of Weepu and Williams do you go for along those four weeks. And the question to the NH lot, is what would you rather face? An inexperienced pack and backline that might hump you and look foolish (if they win it doesn't matter who it's against. No one cares in England the last win in 2002 was an experimental side. They wore the ABs shirt and represented the AB legacy) like what happened in Ireland with effectively a B team a few years ago? Or a largely top squad with a few green shoots springing up erratically here and there who might make it a tough night but beating would feel even more satisfying?