BBC has the PWC report into Welsh Regions

by **LondonTiger** Wed 07 Nov 2012, 8:03 am

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20218179

It is purely looking at the finances it seems. Is highly critical of the performance of the Regions and their future viability. Discusses but rejects concept of bringing back pro clubs AND central contracts. Four other options looked at and rejected (including losing a region).

The recommendation is:

The seventh - and seemingly favoured option in the report - is for the WRU and regions to "adopt a closer collaborative approach" with the formation of a management board to enforce it. The report says this "requires a positive change in the WRU-regions relationship."

So they want a Welsh PRL?

by Guest Wed 07 Nov 2012, 6:34 pm

profitius wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
profitius wrote:
They tap into its success by telling their fans that they, the regions, were part of that success. Its not like they would be telling porkies. Have they done that? Have they ever come together and hired a marketing company to work for them?

Looking at businessmen in sports its amazing how many fail. The most successful club in soccer is Barcelona who is owned by their fans and not run to make money.
Ah, right yes. Presumably they also need to remind the casual Welsh rugby fan of the health benefits of continuous breathing while their at it? What you're saying is fundamentally flawed. Come and see Dan Lydiate play for the Dragons say the Dragons. Oh wait, he's with the national team more than he is there, oh and he plays in a team financially folked by the WRU, against a team I've never really heard of. Nah, may as well just pay the 20 squid for a day out at the Millenium instead.

Are you one of the owners? You're taking things very personally. I'm just suggesting some things the regions can do or do better. Its not a black and white situation. Part of it is about winning over fans. Look at what happened to the Ospreys' season ticket sales last season on the back of their Rabo win.

I agree with you that the owners have pumped alot of their wealth into the regions and the WRU have benefited more than the owners.

I have to agree with some of the things Profitus says. Peter Thomas, at the Blues, has plowed his money into the Blues/Cardiff but only as a loan apparently. Therefore, while he's been generous in loaning his money, it's going to cost the Blues more in the long term due to the interest. You'll say that he's a successful businessman so of course he's going to try to make money from it, but I think that sometimes these 'benefactors' try to come across as hard done by but in the case of Thomas at least he's not risked anything, not given anything really. He's nothing more than a loan shark.

by **profitius** Wed 07 Nov 2012, 7:16 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
profitius wrote:Look at what happened to the Ospreys' season ticket sales last season on the back of their Rabo win.

Funniest part of a post I've read for a while, fair play

Strange sense of humour you got there! thumbsup

by Stone Motif Wed 07 Nov 2012, 8:41 pm

profitius wrote:Look at what happened to the Ospreys' season ticket sales last season on the back of their Rabo win.

Yeah, they had to start giving them away by the fistfull Doh

by HammerofThunor Wed 07 Nov 2012, 8:47 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
profitius wrote:Look at what happened to the Ospreys' season ticket sales last season on the back of their Rabo win.
Yeah, they had to start giving them away by the fistfull

They didn't give them away. It was buy one get one free and take 4 kids along (I think). Good way of getting numbers up and hopefully getting some more hardcore supporters but certainly not a money making scheme or a sign of how popular they are.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 07 Nov 2012, 8:52 pm

Griff wrote:

I have to agree with some of the things Profitus says. Peter Thomas, at the Blues, has plowed his money into the Blues/Cardiff but only as a loan apparently. Therefore, while he's been generous in loaning his money, it's going to cost the Blues more in the long term due to the interest. You'll say that he's a successful businessman so of course he's going to try to make money from it, but I think that sometimes these 'benefactors' try to come across as hard done by but in the case of Thomas at least he's not risked anything, not given anything really. He's nothing more than a loan shark.

Steady on Griff.
You are quite correct that Peter Thomas has loaned many millions to Cardiff, but a significant amount doesn't bear any interest at all. More than £2.5m at least just sitting there doing nothing. Not sure what the current total amount owed to him is, but it must be around £5m easy. You must realise that he's a mega millionaire who has other business interests which make him richer and Cardiff Blues isn't one of them. You're right again he hasn't risked anything (much) because £1m to him is like a tenner to your average pleb.
That being said, for all is wealth and what he's put into Cardiff Blues, he has been a bit of a double edged sword.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 07 Nov 2012, 8:57 pm

Stone Motif wrote: Yeah, they had to start giving them away by the fistfull

As did Cardiff Blues in biblical proportions when they were at CCS.
Now they don't have too.
I wonder why.

by HammerofThunor Wed 07 Nov 2012, 9:01 pm

Most, if not all, benefactors give money as loans. I know the fella at Bath does and I think it's the same as Sarries. They're both in massive debt but this money is owed to the benefactors. Not sure if it's for tax reasons or something else I don't know. Maybe it's so they have some sort of control, I imagine if they GIVE the money away they could be told to bugger off...could they??

by Guest Wed 07 Nov 2012, 9:08 pm

Yeah, sorry a bit harsh! My point really was that people were suggesting that we get in some business people to run the regions a la Connacht. The reply was that our clubs have got successful business people already. However, I was countering that although we've got successful benefactors loaning the regions money they're not necessarily driving the business forward. In the case of Thomas I get the impression that he's putting his money in with the safety net of the loan and interest, but that's it. And that's fine for him but maybe not the region. I guess my question is: he's putting money in/loaning but who is actually getting the money and what are their credentials for spending it? Or is it just a case of Thomas paying any players wages deficit? Should we be getting more proactive people to actually do something better with the money injected/loaned by the benefactors.

At the Dragons we've got Tony Brown who seems to be sort of involved but not putting in any money. That's fine, and his prerogative, but what's his role? We've got Hazell involved who's a very rich man but he doesn't seem to be putting any in. We have a wage bill under £2m according to Darren Edwards and are given at least £1.5m by the WRU, so what are these very successful businessmen doing for the region? Are they the right people to be at the helm if they are not putting money in and not driving the business forward? At the Dragons it seems as if we're only living off WRU payments.

by Guest Wed 07 Nov 2012, 9:25 pm

profitius wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
profitius wrote:Look at what happened to the Ospreys' season ticket sales last season on the back of their Rabo win.

Funniest part of a post I've read for a while, fair play

Strange sense of humour you got there!

As you wish. Daftest part of a post then. I'm sure the League win was the reason and nothing whatsoever to do with the deal on offer.

I'm not knocking it by the way. But I struggle to believe anybody of a sane mind would believe a RABO win would boost numbers rather than a BOGOF deal.

by HammerofThunor Wed 07 Nov 2012, 9:40 pm

Griff wrote:Yeah, sorry a bit harsh! My point really was that people were suggesting that we get in some business people to run the regions a la Connacht. The reply was that our clubs have got successful business people already. However, I was countering that although we've got successful benefactors loaning the regions money they're not necessarily driving the business forward. In the case of Thomas I get the impression that he's putting his money in with the safety net of the loan and interest, but that's it. And that's fine for him but maybe not the region. I guess my question is: he's putting money in/loaning but who is actually getting the money and what are their credentials for spending it? Or is it just a case of Thomas paying any players wages deficit? Should we be getting more proactive people to actually do something better with the money injected/loaned by the benefactors.

At the Dragons we've got Tony Brown who seems to be sort of involved but not putting in any money. That's fine, and his prerogative, but what's his role? We've got Hazell involved who's a very rich man but he doesn't seem to be putting any in. We have a wage bill under £2m according to Darren Edwards and are given at least £1.5m by the WRU, so what are these very successful businessmen doing for the region? Are they the right people to be at the helm if they are not putting money in and not driving the business forward? At the Dragons it seems as if we're only living off WRU payments.

My comment wasn't a rebuke but a bit tongue in cheek. No idea about business structure but loans are a standard way of doing things. I know there were a lot of complaints from Bath fans about Andrew Brownsword not putting any money in when he was owner.

Quins and Saints have got the right set-up (outside of Leicester/Exeter). They both have owners that are committed to the cause but don't have to rely on them pumping money in. Saints make a small profit. Quins made a significant loss last year (£1.5M I think) but a lot of that was ground development I think. But their owners are willing to put a bit of cash in when needed.

It's really difficult and there are no easy solutions. Exeter are an excellent example for other pro rugby sides to follow. Apparently they've had a good long term sponsor but that's the same for a lot of clubs (Tigers have had Cat for years haven't they?). And it's money given rather than a loan.

by BigTrevsbigmac Wed 07 Nov 2012, 9:43 pm

If the Regions are being run by 'successful businessman' How comes one of the Regions apparently didn't even have a business nplan to present to PWC?

Anyone know which Region that was?

by Cardiff Dave Wed 07 Nov 2012, 9:59 pm

Griff wrote:Yeah, sorry a bit harsh! My point really was that people were suggesting that we get in some business people to run the regions a la Connacht. The reply was that our clubs have got successful business people already. However, I was countering that although we've got successful benefactors loaning the regions money they're not necessarily driving the business forward. In the case of Thomas I get the impression that he's putting his money in with the safety net of the loan and interest, but that's it. And that's fine for him but maybe not the region. I guess my question is: he's putting money in/loaning but who is actually getting the money and what are their credentials for spending it? Or is it just a case of Thomas paying any players wages deficit? Should we be getting more proactive people to actually do something better with the money injected/loaned by the benefactors.

At the Dragons we've got Tony Brown who seems to be sort of involved but not putting in any money. That's fine, and his prerogative, but what's his role? We've got Hazell involved who's a very rich man but he doesn't seem to be putting any in. We have a wage bill under £2m according to Darren Edwards and are given at least £1.5m by the WRU, so what are these very successful businessmen doing for the region? Are they the right people to be at the helm if they are not putting money in and not driving the business forward? At the Dragons it seems as if we're only living off WRU payments.

Quite right and continue to be harsh if you want and don't hold back.
Give it both barrels everytime.
Thomas is a man sausage with too much cash to play with i'm afraid. The less about his friends the better.
Seen Mike Hall banging on about how great CCS is on ScrumV lately? Seen him at CAP this season? No nor me.
There is the double edged sword.

As for the Drags; let's have Newport RFC back please Mr Brown.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 07 Nov 2012, 10:00 pm

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:If the Regions are being run by 'successful businessman' How comes one of the Regions apparently didn't even have a business nplan to present to PWC?

Anyone know which Region that was?

Cardiff I reckon.

by Casartelli Wed 07 Nov 2012, 10:38 pm

Panic over. Paul 'the boot' Thorburn having a look at it all for the BBC.

All be sorted by the weekend.

by Stone Motif Wed 07 Nov 2012, 10:57 pm

Griff wrote:Yeah, sorry a bit harsh! My point really was that people were suggesting that we get in some business people to run the regions a la Connacht. The reply was that our clubs have got successful business people already. However, I was countering that although we've got successful benefactors loaning the regions money they're not necessarily driving the business forward. In the case of Thomas I get the impression that he's putting his money in with the safety net of the loan and interest, but that's it. And that's fine for him but maybe not the region. I guess my question is: he's putting money in/loaning but who is actually getting the money and what are their credentials for spending it? Or is it just a case of Thomas paying any players wages deficit? Should we be getting more proactive people to actually do something better with the money injected/loaned by the benefactors.

At the Dragons we've got Tony Brown who seems to be sort of involved but not putting in any money. That's fine, and his prerogative, but what's his role? We've got Hazell involved who's a very rich man but he doesn't seem to be putting any in. We have a wage bill under £2m according to Darren Edwards and are given at least £1.5m by the WRU, so what are these very successful businessmen doing for the region? Are they the right people to be at the helm if they are not putting money in and not driving the business forward? At the Dragons it seems as if we're only living off WRU payments.

Griff 99% of sports teams run at a debt let alone rugby teams. What would happen if Pies and Brown called in their debt? Their region would fold and they'd lose the money anyway. Put it this way, without their involvement however unsuccessful without them that's half of our pro tier gone.

As for the Dragons, do you really think all we have to spend money on is our squad? The £1.5m is barely enough for a prem team to run off. It's a pittance and the shackles it places round our growth as a region are precisely the reason the money men haven't been effective. The can't run their own business. They lose their best players for the majority of the season, have little control over signings, tv times, who they market their product to etc etc - basically most of the ills of pro rugby they cannot do anything to control due to the participation agreement. What is the point in investing in something that fundamentally cannot be a success in it's own right?

by **profitius** Wed 07 Nov 2012, 11:05 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
profitius wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
profitius wrote:Look at what happened to the Ospreys' season ticket sales last season on the back of their Rabo win.

Funniest part of a post I've read for a while, fair play

Strange sense of humour you got there!

As you wish. Daftest part of a post then. I'm sure the League win was the reason and nothing whatsoever to do with the deal on offer.

I'm not knocking it by the way. But I struggle to believe anybody of a sane mind would believe a RABO win would boost numbers rather than a BOGOF deal.

So winning has nothing to do with ticket sales going up. Is that what you're saying?

by Guest Wed 07 Nov 2012, 11:35 pm

That's nothing like what I'm saying. I could in turn ask you "so the BOGOF deal has nothing to do with the ticket sales going up. Is that what you're saying?" Two people have picked you out on that part of your post, so it clearly isn't me that finds it a bit daft.

You need to just accept that part of your post was poorly written and stop trying to save face. Face facts (though I would love one as a Dragons fan), a RABO win isn't going to pull in too many punters. That would contribute to a tiny proportion of the increase, as would the typical slight increase in sales the Regions get every season. But the biggest reason for the rise for the Ospreys is the deal (which you failed to mention and now fail to acknowledge in your posts since).

by **profitius** Thu 08 Nov 2012, 1:39 am

Risca Rev wrote:That's nothing like what I'm saying. I could in turn ask you "so the BOGOF deal has nothing to do with the ticket sales going up. Is that what you're saying?" Two people have picked you out on that part of your post, so it clearly isn't me that finds it a bit daft.

You need to just accept that part of your post was poorly written and stop trying to save face. Face facts (though I would love one as a Dragons fan), a RABO win isn't going to pull in too many punters. That would contribute to a tiny proportion of the increase, as would the typical slight increase in sales the Regions get every season. But the biggest reason for the rise for the Ospreys is the deal (which you failed to mention and now fail to acknowledge in your posts since).

I didn't mention the BOGOF deal. You laughed at my suggestion that the Rabo win helped with ticket sales. I forgot about the BOGOF deal so I'm certainly not denying it but the win and feelgood factor really helped push up sales too.

"A rabo win isn't going to pull in too many punters". Successful teams attracts more fans. If you havn't figured that out by now you shouldn't be attempting to belittle posts.

by sirBiggles Thu 08 Nov 2012, 2:22 am

offload wrote:
sirBiggles wrote:I said several years back on the old BBC 606 forum that I predicted the end of regional rugby, and the end of professional rugby in Wales. I said, I fear, a few of the top clubs will look to play in the English Prem, and professional rugby in Wales will go the way of professional football, ie. Swansea, Cardiff, Wrexham and Newport, playing games in the English leagues, with very few welsh qualified players.

This was always due to happen, when regions where set up and then left to the money men to run. They have NO interest in the success of the National Side, only the success of their clubs (Regions) and why should they. They are, after all business men, and so are only interested in the bottom line. I'm amused when we call them benefactors, as that implies they plow money into the clubs as a hobby. They don't, they do it as an investor, and when business is bad, they will want to see their investment returned. Why do you think Cuddy has removed himself from Ospreys MD role. Because, his company like other construction companies are feeling the pinch, and it is now time he pulled back and sees a return on his investment. Tell Cuddy, never mind the Ospreys haven't won the HC, never mind you make a real loss year in year out, just think how your investment has developed the lions share of the Welsh National squad. I bet he will be impressed....

I'll say it again. The Regions where set up for the benefit of the Welsh National side and no other reason. Hence, the only way it can or would ever work, is if the WRU centrally contract the top Welsh players. Then those players play for the region the WRU assigns them to, just like contractors in the real business world. It is fair, in this process, that the WRU reduced payments to the Regions, as the Regions no longer have the payroll bill for the top players. They then only pay the players they want. But of course the Regions don't want this, as they want the penny and the bun.

I just fear for Welsh rugby, as I honestly believe the bubble will burst, with the top players leaving for lucrative (but short) contracts outside Wales. We will then see club v country calls like they see in football. The Regions will extract themselves from the WRU and seek bigger returns of their investment playing outside of the WRU control, which will result in the demise of the Pro12. Which will have a knock on effect to our Celtic cousins.

Rugby is heading for the biggest split, since the creation of Rugby League, and the WRU and Regions are too pig headed to see it.

Ok, I'm an old f@rt and like me many old uns, say Professionalism has ruined the game. Well it has, but not by the players becoming professional, but the fact the clubs and WRU are still running the game like a bunch of idiot committee members looking forward to their freebies, instead of becoming professional business men and investing in and developing a product everyone wants.

They need to change NOW, centrally contract the top players and put a professional management layer in, instead of jobs for the boys. The WRU need to invest in the regions so they become thier partners realising the Regions need success as well. The Regions need to embrace national success and grow off it, instead of seeing the WRU as the enemy all the time..... There is so much they need to do, to keep this boat afloat. Yet I think the people there making the decisions dont really care, and in all honesty I fear it may be to late.

Hi SirBiggs, I remember you from the old board and from Scrum5 - hope you are well.
Although your's is a pretty pessimistic view, I share much of it. We have a professional sport still run by too many amateurs. We can't just focus on a moderately successful national team. The regions have to have the foundation to thrive.

Hi there offload, I am keeping well thanks for asking, I remember you and many others here from the old boards and hope you are also well. I do read the posts most days, but seldom make posts myself these days, as the WUMS where getting out of hand and at times, far to often I felt, cross the line from banter to simple insults. After a few personal attacks on myself, thought it easier simply to ignore the posts all together and do something more productive.

I fear I have a pessimist view on this, and I really hope I'm wrong, but unless something is done really soon, I can't see the money men staying with Welsh rugby. If they do pull out, the game in Wales will suffer big time.

Without going through masses of posts since mine, let's not forget what has been said by many on this thread. The benefactors are successful businessmen, they have to be to have their wealth. So why do they plow the money in, because they are not benefactors as I said earlier, they are businessmen looking at investments, and they will want to see returns. I think most of them have now lost confidence, and they are hence ready to pull the plug.

by Guest Thu 08 Nov 2012, 7:22 am

profitius wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:That's nothing like what I'm saying. I could in turn ask you "so the BOGOF deal has nothing to do with the ticket sales going up. Is that what you're saying?" Two people have picked you out on that part of your post, so it clearly isn't me that finds it a bit daft.

You need to just accept that part of your post was poorly written and stop trying to save face. Face facts (though I would love one as a Dragons fan), a RABO win isn't going to pull in too many punters. That would contribute to a tiny proportion of the increase, as would the typical slight increase in sales the Regions get every season. But the biggest reason for the rise for the Ospreys is the deal (which you failed to mention and now fail to acknowledge in your posts since).

I didn't mention the BOGOF deal. You laughed at my suggestion that the Rabo win helped with ticket sales. I forgot about the BOGOF deal so I'm certainly not denying it but the win and feelgood factor really helped push up sales too.

"A rabo win isn't going to pull in too many punters". Successful teams attracts more fans. If you havn't figured that out by now you shouldn't be attempting to belittle posts.

A successful team like Swansea City? I think if people are going to be chasing success, they're more likely to take note of how the football team are doing in the Top Flight rather than a Rabo win. Your initial post suggested that the League win was the reason. I've explained to you what the main reason is and you still don't accept it, trying to save face again by explaining about success and how it really pushed up sales (it didn't). If it did, then the other three wins should've really pushed up sales too.

God loves a trier, I suppose. I'm sure you'll convince somebody.

by **profitius** Thu 08 Nov 2012, 10:36 am

Risca Rev wrote:
profitius wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:That's nothing like what I'm saying. I could in turn ask you "so the BOGOF deal has nothing to do with the ticket sales going up. Is that what you're saying?" Two people have picked you out on that part of your post, so it clearly isn't me that finds it a bit daft.

You need to just accept that part of your post was poorly written and stop trying to save face. Face facts (though I would love one as a Dragons fan), a RABO win isn't going to pull in too many punters. That would contribute to a tiny proportion of the increase, as would the typical slight increase in sales the Regions get every season. But the biggest reason for the rise for the Ospreys is the deal (which you failed to mention and now fail to acknowledge in your posts since).

I didn't mention the BOGOF deal. You laughed at my suggestion that the Rabo win helped with ticket sales. I forgot about the BOGOF deal so I'm certainly not denying it but the win and feelgood factor really helped push up sales too.

"A rabo win isn't going to pull in too many punters". Successful teams attracts more fans. If you havn't figured that out by now you shouldn't be attempting to belittle posts.

A successful team like Swansea City? I think if people are going to be chasing success, they're more likely to take note of how the football team are doing in the Top Flight rather than a Rabo win. Your initial post suggested that the League win was the reason. I've explained to you what the main reason is and you still don't accept it, trying to save face again by explaining about success and how it really pushed up sales (it didn't). If it did, then the other three wins should've really pushed up sales too.

God loves a trier, I suppose. I'm sure you'll convince somebody.

I believe the league win helped as did the BOGOF deal. The only one of us denying anything is you denying the effect of winning the league. You could even see the feelgood factor in the forum after the Ospreys win.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 08 Nov 2012, 10:47 am

Profitus - I think that the Ospreys the went through some rather tough changes last season, they lost a heap of their 'stars' and then went on to lose their coach, and replace him with an unknown quantity, which lead to a bit of a feel-bad factor on here nearing the end of last season, I think that winningt he league, without their 'stars' di create a feel good factor. However if you look at the number of season tickets sold, and compare it to the Ospreys attendances, it would seem that the BOGOF was definately a bigger factor in the amount of tickets sold, than the league win.

Attendances so far -: 8566, 7159, 8764, 8231.
Average Attendace so far -: 8,180

I am not certain of the exact number of season tickets sold, but it is quoted on here quite often as 9,500 so either people have bought their tickets ont he feel good factor and are unable to attend, or a fair number of the BOGOFs just are not attending.

by Guest Thu 08 Nov 2012, 10:53 am

profitius wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
profitius wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:That's nothing like what I'm saying. I could in turn ask you "so the BOGOF deal has nothing to do with the ticket sales going up. Is that what you're saying?" Two people have picked you out on that part of your post, so it clearly isn't me that finds it a bit daft.

You need to just accept that part of your post was poorly written and stop trying to save face. Face facts (though I would love one as a Dragons fan), a RABO win isn't going to pull in too many punters. That would contribute to a tiny proportion of the increase, as would the typical slight increase in sales the Regions get every season. But the biggest reason for the rise for the Ospreys is the deal (which you failed to mention and now fail to acknowledge in your posts since).

I didn't mention the BOGOF deal. You laughed at my suggestion that the Rabo win helped with ticket sales. I forgot about the BOGOF deal so I'm certainly not denying it but the win and feelgood factor really helped push up sales too.

"A rabo win isn't going to pull in too many punters". Successful teams attracts more fans. If you havn't figured that out by now you shouldn't be attempting to belittle posts.

A successful team like Swansea City? I think if people are going to be chasing success, they're more likely to take note of how the football team are doing in the Top Flight rather than a Rabo win. Your initial post suggested that the League win was the reason. I've explained to you what the main reason is and you still don't accept it, trying to save face again by explaining about success and how it really pushed up sales (it didn't). If it did, then the other three wins should've really pushed up sales too.

God loves a trier, I suppose. I'm sure you'll convince somebody.

I believe the league win helped as did the BOGOF deal. The only one of us denying anything is you denying the effect of winning the league. You could even see the feelgood factor in the forum after the Ospreys win.

I wrote in a post that you have even quoted that the League win would've contributed in a small way. But the key word is small way. The League win didn't really push up sales like you suggest. You've now had a third person tell you that the BOGOF deal is the biggest reason and you'll probably persist in trying to convince everybody that the league win was the cause. Basically I'm wasting my time here.

by **profitius** Thu 08 Nov 2012, 11:29 am

Risca Rev wrote:
profitius wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
profitius wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:That's nothing like what I'm saying. I could in turn ask you "so the BOGOF deal has nothing to do with the ticket sales going up. Is that what you're saying?" Two people have picked you out on that part of your post, so it clearly isn't me that finds it a bit daft.

You need to just accept that part of your post was poorly written and stop trying to save face. Face facts (though I would love one as a Dragons fan), a RABO win isn't going to pull in too many punters. That would contribute to a tiny proportion of the increase, as would the typical slight increase in sales the Regions get every season. But the biggest reason for the rise for the Ospreys is the deal (which you failed to mention and now fail to acknowledge in your posts since).

I didn't mention the BOGOF deal. You laughed at my suggestion that the Rabo win helped with ticket sales. I forgot about the BOGOF deal so I'm certainly not denying it but the win and feelgood factor really helped push up sales too.

"A rabo win isn't going to pull in too many punters". Successful teams attracts more fans. If you havn't figured that out by now you shouldn't be attempting to belittle posts.

A successful team like Swansea City? I think if people are going to be chasing success, they're more likely to take note of how the football team are doing in the Top Flight rather than a Rabo win. Your initial post suggested that the League win was the reason. I've explained to you what the main reason is and you still don't accept it, trying to save face again by explaining about success and how it really pushed up sales (it didn't). If it did, then the other three wins should've really pushed up sales too.

God loves a trier, I suppose. I'm sure you'll convince somebody.

I believe the league win helped as did the BOGOF deal. The only one of us denying anything is you denying the effect of winning the league. You could even see the feelgood factor in the forum after the Ospreys win.

I wrote in a post that you have even quoted that the League win would've contributed in a small way. But the key word is small way. The League win didn't really push up sales like you suggest. You've now had a third person tell you that the BOGOF deal is the biggest reason and you'll probably persist in trying to convince everybody that the league win was the cause. Basically I'm wasting my time here.

I already said I forgot about the BOGOF. What more do you want me to say? That the BOGOF was the only reason and the winning of the league played no part?

by **profitius** Thu 08 Nov 2012, 11:37 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Profitus - I think that the Ospreys the went through some rather tough changes last season, they lost a heap of their 'stars' and then went on to lose their coach, and replace him with an unknown quantity, which lead to a bit of a feel-bad factor on here nearing the end of last season, I think that winningt he league, without their 'stars' di create a feel good factor. However if you look at the number of season tickets sold, and compare it to the Ospreys attendances, it would seem that the BOGOF was definately a bigger factor in the amount of tickets sold, than the league win.

Attendances so far -: 8566, 7159, 8764, 8231.
Average Attendace so far -: 8,180

I am not certain of the exact number of season tickets sold, but it is quoted on here quite often as 9,500 so either people have bought their tickets ont he feel good factor and are unable to attend, or a fair number of the BOGOFs just are not attending.

From what I remember there was a surge of season ticket sales after the Rabo final. Now I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm saying the Rabo win definitely played a part in the ticket sales which some people (not you) have a hard time understanding.

by HammerofThunor Thu 08 Nov 2012, 11:44 am

Ospreys won the league in 2010 didn't they. I've got a feeling attendances went down the next season.

People are saying that trying to state (as a fact) that season tickets have surged up due to them winning is impossible due to the vastly overwhelming bias created by the BOGOF offer.

You would imagine they would go up but the facts aren't there to back it up (that I've seen).

by maestegmafia Thu 08 Nov 2012, 11:50 am

HammerofThunor wrote:Ospreys won the league in 2010 didn't they. I've got a feeling attendances went down the next season.

People are saying that trying to state (as a fact) that season tickets have surged up due to them winning is impossible due to the vastly overwhelming bias created by the BOGOF offer.

You would imagine they would go up but the facts aren't there to back it up (that I've seen).

Probably because the attendance figures are far more related to the economic situation than offers. Lower costs on tickets help massively, but a night out, with kids and a mate is still an expensive night out, travel, food etc on top. The surrounding area is not that wealthy.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 08 Nov 2012, 11:54 am

maestegmafia wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Ospreys won the league in 2010 didn't they. I've got a feeling attendances went down the next season.

People are saying that trying to state (as a fact) that season tickets have surged up due to them winning is impossible due to the vastly overwhelming bias created by the BOGOF offer.

You would imagine they would go up but the facts aren't there to back it up (that I've seen).

Probably because the attendance figures are far more related to the economic situation than offers. Lower costs on tickets help massively, but a night out, with kids and a mate is still an expensive night out, travel, food etc on top. The surrounding area is not that wealthy.

Cods! If you have the tickets already what is the cost of a rugby match? £3 for a programme, and then £6 for a beer and a burger. Or even better, £3 for a programme and then a McDonalds drive-thru (kids love them don' they) for what £3 each, so that is pretty damn cheap. A heap cheaper than spending best part of £200 on a season tickets not to use the bloody things.

Or even do the really cheap thing have dinner before going out, and take a bottle of pop in your pocket with you!

by maestegmafia Thu 08 Nov 2012, 12:04 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Ospreys won the league in 2010 didn't they. I've got a feeling attendances went down the next season.

People are saying that trying to state (as a fact) that season tickets have surged up due to them winning is impossible due to the vastly overwhelming bias created by the BOGOF offer.

You would imagine they would go up but the facts aren't there to back it up (that I've seen).

Probably because the attendance figures are far more related to the economic situation than offers. Lower costs on tickets help massively, but a night out, with kids and a mate is still an expensive night out, travel, food etc on top. The surrounding area is not that wealthy.

Cods! If you have the tickets already what is the cost of a rugby match? £3 for a programme, and then £6 for a beer and a burger. Or even better, £3 for a programme and then a McDonalds drive-thru (kids love them don' they) for what £3 each, so that is pretty damn cheap. A heap cheaper than spending best part of £200 on a season tickets not to use the bloody things.

Or even do the really cheap thing have dinner before going out, and take a bottle of pop in your pocket with you!

Add the initial £200.

Spread that over a season its nothing. £200 up front is a massive deal.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 08 Nov 2012, 12:09 pm

Maes - you have lost me. There are supposedly 9,500 people walking around with Ospreys season tickets in their pockets, already paid for (admittedly only about 4k of them paid for them). So they have already stumped up the money that was required to buy the tickets, around £200. So that should mean that there should be atleast 9k in attendance for every game, giving for illness etc, and that is not including traveling away fans or buy on the day tickets.

To say that the attendance figures are lower because people are not turning up to attend a match because they are too poor to buy a beer and a burger is rediculous.

by HammerofThunor Thu 08 Nov 2012, 12:15 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Ospreys won the league in 2010 didn't they. I've got a feeling attendances went down the next season.

People are saying that trying to state (as a fact) that season tickets have surged up due to them winning is impossible due to the vastly overwhelming bias created by the BOGOF offer.

You would imagine they would go up but the facts aren't there to back it up (that I've seen).

Probably because the attendance figures are far more related to the economic situation than offers. Lower costs on tickets help massively, but a night out, with kids and a mate is still an expensive night out, travel, food etc on top. The surrounding area is not that wealthy.

Sorry Maes, that was supposed to be my point (badly). You can't just look at attendances or season tickets and say the reason is X. Otherwise you could say that winning the season meant less people buy season tickets. The real situation is way more complicated than that.

by Kingshu Thu 08 Nov 2012, 12:16 pm

A night out at rugby can be pretty cheap, Programme not even nessary.

Think to visit a pub 3 pints costs about £10, most of us would have about 6 so £20

a night out to rugby is cheaper than a visit to the pub (if you have ticket).

by HammerofThunor Thu 08 Nov 2012, 12:21 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Maes - you have lost me. There are supposedly 9,500 people walking around with Ospreys season tickets in their pockets, already paid for (admittedly only about 4k of them paid for them). So they have already stumped up the money that was required to buy the tickets, around £200. So that should mean that there should be atleast 9k in attendance for every game, giving for illness etc, and that is not including traveling away fans or buy on the day tickets.

To say that the attendance figures are lower because people are not turning up to attend a match because they are too poor to buy a beer and a burger is rediculous.

The initial point was season tickets. The second was attendances. It wasn't about people with season tickets not turning up. Maes was saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that the drop in attendances (no idea what season tickets did) around 2010 was largely due to economic reasons, including tickets (season or match) and supplementary costs. He wasn't saying people with season tickets aren't going because of cost.

Although I do think that comes into it. Say you used to attend the odd match like I sometimes do and instead you get a free season ticket. The costs for going every game are still going to be a lot higher just with costs of attending. Given you haven't forked out for your ticket will mean you don't feel as obliged to go. If you have paid for the ticket then you're more likely to go as the cost of the ticket is significant compared with other costs. to be honest when I go I don;t eat or drink anything at the ground so it doesn't cost me anything over the ticket

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 08 Nov 2012, 12:26 pm

Thunor - Ah I was thinking he was explaining why there are 9,500 season ticket holders and only an average of 8.2k in attendance, as people being poor. It is one of those excuses that is banded around on these threads whenever attndances are low, and honestly I don't buy it (cos I am too poor Laugh

).

by maestegmafia Thu 08 Nov 2012, 12:34 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Thunor - Ah I was thinking he was explaining why there are 9,500 season ticket holders and only an average of 8.2k in attendance, as people being poor. It is one of those excuses that is banded around on these threads whenever attndances are low, and honestly I don't buy it (cos I am too poor ).

I read a council paper last summer that said that in the Afan Valley the average households income was £18,000.

by HammerofThunor Thu 08 Nov 2012, 12:35 pm

I think that's simply because a lot of the people with season tickets aren't diehard fans but have one because they're free. Given that it generally does cost money to go see a game I can understand why they don't go to them all (also a fair few of those tickets may have been 'sold' to people who can't make many games due to working away and only go to the odd one).

From my experience (warning, massive generalization imminent) lot of people 'too poor' to attend go to the pub every night at the weekend (and sometimes more) and could easily divert their money to rugby instead. Not that there's anything wrong with that as such. But you've got to win people over to going to the rugby instead of the pub (where all the games are on a big screen).

The whole, "we're new" is still semi valid in this. People go because they've always gone, their dad went, etc. Not really THAT valid as most rugby attendances were pitiful a couple of decades ago so they WEREN'T going with their dad, etc. In Hull there's a championship football team and two Super League Rugby sides. Average attendance in total across all three is around 40000 (20000 for football and 20000 for combined league sides). and Hull is one of the most economically deprived areas in the UK with huge unemployment. This may change with benefit reforms mind.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 08 Nov 2012, 12:47 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Thunor - Ah I was thinking he was explaining why there are 9,500 season ticket holders and only an average of 8.2k in attendance, as people being poor. It is one of those excuses that is banded around on these threads whenever attndances are low, and honestly I don't buy it (cos I am too poor ).

I read a council paper last summer that said that in the Afan Valley the average households income was £18,000.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/nov/24/wages-britain-ashe-mapped#zoomed-picture
(click on the magnifying glass at the bottom right of the map to expand it to cover the whole of Wales/Eng/Scot)

Looks to me that pretty much the Whole of Wales is in the same boat, so how can people afford to travel from the Pembrokeshire/Ceridigion to PYS to see their team play (and buy tickets), yet people with tickets already (and free) can't turn up to a match? This we are poor people stuff, whilst is true, is total tripe as an excuse.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 08 Nov 2012, 12:51 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:I think that's simply because a lot of the people with season tickets aren't diehard fans but have one because they're free. Given that it generally does cost money to go see a game I can understand why they don't go to them all (also a fair few of those tickets may have been 'sold' to people who can't make many games due to working away and only go to the odd one).

From my experience (warning, massive generalization imminent) lot of people 'too poor' to attend go to the pub every night at the weekend (and sometimes more) and could easily divert their money to rugby instead. Not that there's anything wrong with that as such. But you've got to win people over to going to the rugby instead of the pub (where all the games are on a big screen).
The whole, "we're new" is still semi valid in this. People go because they've always gone, their dad went, etc. Not really THAT valid as most rugby attendances were pitiful a couple of decades ago so they WEREN'T going with their dad, etc. In Hull there's a championship football team and two Super League Rugby sides. Average attendance in total across all three is around 40000 (20000 for football and 20000 for combined league sides). and Hull is one of the most economically deprived areas in the UK with huge unemployment. This may change with benefit reforms mind.

That is my experience, I have had people say to me that I must be loaded to be a season ticket holder and travel 120 miles every other week to watch a rugby match, then I tell them how much the ticket cost, and compare that to their pub costs for 16 trips and it works out cheaper following the Scarelts (even buying a new jersey too).

by Guest Thu 08 Nov 2012, 1:44 pm

profitius wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Profitus - I think that the Ospreys the went through some rather tough changes last season, they lost a heap of their 'stars' and then went on to lose their coach, and replace him with an unknown quantity, which lead to a bit of a feel-bad factor on here nearing the end of last season, I think that winningt he league, without their 'stars' di create a feel good factor. However if you look at the number of season tickets sold, and compare it to the Ospreys attendances, it would seem that the BOGOF was definately a bigger factor in the amount of tickets sold, than the league win.

Attendances so far -: 8566, 7159, 8764, 8231.
Average Attendace so far -: 8,180

I am not certain of the exact number of season tickets sold, but it is quoted on here quite often as 9,500 so either people have bought their tickets ont he feel good factor and are unable to attend, or a fair number of the BOGOFs just are not attending.

From what I remember there was a surge of season ticket sales after the Rabo final. Now I'm not saying you're right or wrong, I'm saying the Rabo win definitely played a part in the ticket sales which some people (not you) have a hard time understanding.

How do I have a hard time understanding? I have acknowledged it played a part, albeit a small one. You made an error and are hopelessly trying to dig your way out of it. I'm not the only one saying the BOGOF deal is the main reason, yet apparently I'm the one who's having trouble understanding, though it was your daft post in the first place that was inaccurate. Like I say, you've even highlighted posts of mine where I acknowledge a slight increase is possible due to the league win, but the main reason is the deal. I've presented you with fair reasoning relating to Swansea City and success and about their previous league wins and you can't even accept the league win is only a small reason.

So let me get this straight, you think you can remember the surge in sales after the league win, but conveniently forget about the BOGOF deal that gets mentioned a lot on this site. Not likely is it.

by Glas a du Thu 08 Nov 2012, 2:07 pm

7 suggestions...

All that money, and they come up with 5 ideas the WRU can't afford financially or reputationally, one which is the status quo (which no self respecting consultant can ever recommend) and one which is...wait for it...set up a committee...

Yes...result!

The bit that worries me in that report from the BBC is a line buried late on. If the WRU took direct control of the regions (and hence the £5.2m funding gap) they would "breach their banking covenants" i.e. they would be insolvent. YET, they say the regions are mismanaged. That is an implication that the WRU's management would be no better!

by Casartelli Thu 08 Nov 2012, 2:17 pm

Good summary Glas.

Just one thing - breaching a bank covenant doesn't mean that they would be insolvent.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 08 Nov 2012, 2:21 pm

Casartelli wrote:Good summary Glas.

Just one thing - breaching a bank covenant doesn't mean that they would be insolvent.

It can do as they can recall the full debt there an then if it is breached.

by Glas a du Thu 08 Nov 2012, 2:22 pm

Not necessarily no, but in that context it means they wouldn't be able to make their loan repayments. Since their asset, the MS is not really saleable, it effectively means the same thing.

by Glas a du Thu 08 Nov 2012, 2:23 pm

Anyway it's bean counter speak for up Poopie creek without a wooden propulsion aid.

by Casartelli Thu 08 Nov 2012, 2:30 pm

I love it when it gets all financial on here!

There are loads of 'covenants' a bank could put in a loan contract/agreement letter. They are generally split into financial (achieving certain ratios, profit levels etc) and non-financial (sending their annual accounts in on time, providing management figures once a month etc).

They used to be for the benefit of bank and customer. Nowadays they are a mechanism for the bank to screw a customer on fees and margins. Barclays are notorious for it.

There would be many, many ways the WRU could take greater control of the regions without having any impact on bank covenants whatsoever. PWC have just chucked in a reference to it, presumably, to justify their fees.

by Glas a du Thu 08 Nov 2012, 2:40 pm

Whilst that's all true, it's also a nice way of the report author telling the report commissioner "not on your Nelly".

The implication clearly is the WRU can not bail the regions out even if they wanted to, whether taking them over or not, as they are already on a tight rope financially.

by Glas a du Thu 08 Nov 2012, 2:42 pm

Oh, and, I forgot, given the "current economic climate..."

Rolling Eyes

by Casartelli Thu 08 Nov 2012, 2:53 pm

Like I think I said earlier, I wonder if the WRU will ever make official comment on this report, or just pretend it never happened.

If there was the will and desire at the top of the WRU to make things better, they could do it. They're in charge of it all, they have income of £60m+, GS successes to 'leverage' and, by their own claims, a financial situation that is improving massively 'year on year'.

But, when you're a chief exec on £300k+pa, your main focus is going to be maintaining the status quo, or as close to it as possible, so you can ride the gravy train for as long as possible.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 08 Nov 2012, 2:56 pm

To be honest Cas if the WRU want to really fix the rift with the regions, they should come out and say what the options are and why they are either being considered or not. Be transparent and maybe, just maybe, the regions will be able to start to trust them again.

by Casartelli Thu 08 Nov 2012, 3:04 pm

Totally agree Spidey.

I genuinely think the WRU don't know what they want or where to take things. The top people are in a cosy, complacent rut and haven't done anything of note since employing Gatland.

Lewis takes time off for Welsh language campaigns and Pickering wanders around in la-la land (he gave an interview in April saying we could never have central contracts!)

They're terrified of making big decisions in case they are later held accountable as the ones that brought the GS 'run' to an end.

WRU could have ridden the GS wave to get everyone working closer together.

Protecting their own salaries is more important to them.

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