Imagine if......
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kiakahaaotearoa
maestegmafia
Biltong
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: International
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Imagine if......
I found this article on a South african forum.
All the excitement from the elections in the United States seems have many South Africans reflecting and saying things like; ‘Imagine if South Africa…’
Now I realise many folks could not give a hoot about what happens in America, but reflection is never a bad thing in my books. But rather than politics, it had me reflecting on ‘Imagine if South African rugby…’
Imagine if South African rugby could not only productively tap into but also develop the vast talent pool and infrastructure of schoolboy and club rugby this country possess? * Every weekend across South Africa, around 885 clubs affiliated to one of the 14 provincial unions field one or more teams in scores of different leagues. But this isn’t the full picture, for this figure excludes those hundreds of passionate players who play “Sunday league” rugby in places such as the Eastern Cape and North West provinces. That is a minimum of 19 470 players that play the beautiful game on rugby fields of South Africa. This figure excludes the tens of thousands of schoolboys that play in their respective leagues, rugby festivals and national tournaments.
* (Statistics from SA Rugby’s website)
Imagine if South African rugby could make the game available to all South Africans and not just a select, elite few? SABC viewers outnumbered that of DSTV by quite some margin during the Rugby World Cup of 2011 in games where South Africa played. In the Rugby Championship of 2012, a delayed broadcast late at night of the opening game of South Africa vs. Argentina at Newlands SABC recorded a viewership of 1.7 million compared to the 914 000 of SuperSport1 which was showed live. The average Currie Cup television audience per game for 2012 was higher than the average audience for Super Rugby 2012 – not one game of the domestic Currie Cup competition was aired on SABC.
Imagine if South African rugby could tackle the challenge of transformation as something more than a numbers game to score political BEE points with government but rather as a focused, concerted effort to market, develop, and drive programmes in black and coloured communities? It took SA Rugby 7 years to finally get the Eastern Cape into Super Rugby, and even after seven years there is not one shred of evidence that the ‘hotspot of black rugby’ in South Africa has, or will change or assist the racial make-up of the game. After seven years there is close to zero local, black representation for the franchise who is in the process of contracting mercenaries to give them a fighting chance for the competition in a couple of months’ time.
Imagine if South African rugby had the foresight to re-invest in the intellectual property they spent millions of Rands on developing to ensure continuity at national level? Since winning the Rugby World Cup in 1995 South Africa had 7 national coaches 4 of them fired outright with the remaining 3 ‘diplomatically’ told to #$%^ off – including a World Cup winning coach. Not only were the coaches fired, none of their assistants were ever kept on in any capacity.
Imagine if South African rugby had the leadership to guide its 14 unions rather than have the unions dictate matters of national interest to the governing body. South African rugby relies on a voting system not much different from how the ANC president will be voted into power in Mangaung later this year. Those who vote are elected (voted) officials from each of the 14 unions. They then go through a process of politicking to align themselves with partners that best serve their own cause, or from whom they would benefit most. Those who did not support them or helped them (read financed) are usually the ones will end up voting against. Backhands, backstabbing, power, greed are in the order of the day basically where votes are ‘bought’ for ‘favours’. I am forever surprised how so many South Africans can criticize corruption, backroom deals and cadre appointments at national level but simply accept it in our rugby structures which is no different.
Imagine if South African rugby had the business acumen to realise that we drive the sport of rugby in the Southern Hemisphere from a commercial point of view? Rugby as a professional sport is like any company in a money-driven market – it is survival of the fittest or in this case, the richest and most powerful. How the South African rugby administration could not only concede our commercial value on an equal profit split basis with the smaller partners but also be dictated to on how the game is structured and marketed to the world defies belief.
Finally, imagine the day South African rugby elects a leader whose will and drive is not only to keep the peace between the political power mongers but actively drives change and inspires those around him. A leader who is not scared to make the tough decisions and accepts responsibility for his actions and those of his staff. A leader who realises from the outset that his only role is to serve the game of rugby which will always be bigger than those who manage it from time-to-time. A leader who takes rugby forward in this country and is not only happy not to stuff anything up and leave with a clean slate.
Imagine.
Biltong- Moderator
- Posts : 26945
Join date : 2011-04-27
Location : Twilight zone
Re: Imagine if......
Great post bil. Very interesting.
I think we are just approaching a point where all nations will be seriously re-thinking and re-working the structures of rugby top to bottom in all our countries.
What we all have at the moment is not sustainable, it is heavily funded and un-workable. Without that private input competitivity will drop and the model collapse.
We all have problems.
I think we are just approaching a point where all nations will be seriously re-thinking and re-working the structures of rugby top to bottom in all our countries.
What we all have at the moment is not sustainable, it is heavily funded and un-workable. Without that private input competitivity will drop and the model collapse.
We all have problems.
maestegmafia- Posts : 23145
Join date : 2011-03-05
Location : Glyncorrwg
Re: Imagine if......
I responded to the article on the other form and the way I see it is probably totally outside the box.
I believe we must withdraw from Super rugby.
We must play only in The rugby championship.
SARU must control the players and their contracts.
Finances to be worked so that Each Province has a salary cap.
Build 14 equally strong provinces, not just a few.
This will mean we can keep more players inhouse, and build our wn structure from the bottom up.
Management of players will be much easier and SARU can dictate which player gets to play what position and ensure there is continuity between coaches etc.
I believe we must withdraw from Super rugby.
We must play only in The rugby championship.
SARU must control the players and their contracts.
Finances to be worked so that Each Province has a salary cap.
Build 14 equally strong provinces, not just a few.
This will mean we can keep more players inhouse, and build our wn structure from the bottom up.
Management of players will be much easier and SARU can dictate which player gets to play what position and ensure there is continuity between coaches etc.
Biltong- Moderator
- Posts : 26945
Join date : 2011-04-27
Location : Twilight zone
Re: Imagine if......
Imagine if PDV was ruler of the world...
Interesting post. I actually secretly hope SA does quit Super rugby. That way we could have a comp between Australia and maybe the Pacific Islands and limit the teams to 8 or so and play each other home and away. Pool together some clubs and provinces or franchises and keep a ceiling on expenditure at club level. Tap into the Asian market through other teams like the Maori or reinstate the Junior All Blacks and limit the number of games for ABs each year with Autumn Internationals seen purely as development. Imagine...
Interesting post. I actually secretly hope SA does quit Super rugby. That way we could have a comp between Australia and maybe the Pacific Islands and limit the teams to 8 or so and play each other home and away. Pool together some clubs and provinces or franchises and keep a ceiling on expenditure at club level. Tap into the Asian market through other teams like the Maori or reinstate the Junior All Blacks and limit the number of games for ABs each year with Autumn Internationals seen purely as development. Imagine...
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-10
Location : Madrid
Re: Imagine if......
Biltong wrote:I responded to the article on the other form and the way I see it is probably totally outside the box.
I believe we must withdraw from Super rugby.
We must play only in The rugby championship.
SARU must control the players and their contracts.
Finances to be worked so that Each Province has a salary cap.
Build 14 equally strong provinces, not just a few.
This will mean we can keep more players inhouse, and build our wn structure from the bottom up.
Management of players will be much easier and SARU can dictate which player gets to play what position and ensure there is continuity between coaches etc.
Similar debates in Europe mate.
You are talking about reverting to a similar system to English and French rugby, as opposed to theAustralian, Welsh, Kiwi, Scot, Italian and Irish system.
maestegmafia- Posts : 23145
Join date : 2011-03-05
Location : Glyncorrwg
Re: Imagine if......
Biltong,would you include an international club competition with English/French top tier clubs?
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
Join date : 2011-09-21
Re: Imagine if......
Why would you want the SARU to control players/contracts & a salary cap?
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
Join date : 2011-09-21
Re: Imagine if......
Broadlandboy, currently there are three Provinces/Franchises that has money, this means the collective talent end up in three teams, then there are another 3-4 teams who can compete when the Boks are out of those top three teams, then there are another 7 teams who are way off pace.
All of this has to do with money.
If SARU controlled all of this and spread the money fairly, and also put salary caps on players, we will be able to hold on to 14 X 30 professional players, rather than the current way where the bottom 7 teams have next to no money at all.
It also has to do with the revene streams that are currently generated, by us being in the super XV and part of SANZAR we bring in the money but split it equally.
The results have shown that we have more viewers per Currie Cup match than Super XV, which tells you that Super XV isn;t the biggest draw card for us.
Also just a san example, Supersport has the rights to broadcasting Rugby in SA, but our Public television broadcaster, airs the test matches as delayed matches, becuase that is free to air TV, there are more people watching Springbok rugby on a delayed basis than live.
This tells us if SARU, Supersport and the SABC can get together we have a huge market that will expose rugby more, get Government involved in developing sport in schools and we can run this thing all by ourselves.
I don't mind an international club competition, but for me it must only be seen as an elite type comp. Only a few teams per nation competing, it will keep the comp shorter, and there for allow better management of players.
All of this has to do with money.
If SARU controlled all of this and spread the money fairly, and also put salary caps on players, we will be able to hold on to 14 X 30 professional players, rather than the current way where the bottom 7 teams have next to no money at all.
It also has to do with the revene streams that are currently generated, by us being in the super XV and part of SANZAR we bring in the money but split it equally.
The results have shown that we have more viewers per Currie Cup match than Super XV, which tells you that Super XV isn;t the biggest draw card for us.
Also just a san example, Supersport has the rights to broadcasting Rugby in SA, but our Public television broadcaster, airs the test matches as delayed matches, becuase that is free to air TV, there are more people watching Springbok rugby on a delayed basis than live.
This tells us if SARU, Supersport and the SABC can get together we have a huge market that will expose rugby more, get Government involved in developing sport in schools and we can run this thing all by ourselves.
I don't mind an international club competition, but for me it must only be seen as an elite type comp. Only a few teams per nation competing, it will keep the comp shorter, and there for allow better management of players.
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Imagine if......
Biltong,the reason I asked was I could see a problem of percieved favouratism if the SARU control players to some of the teams. If each team was given the same from the SARU,with a salary cap,would enable the teams to compete for players.
I could see an ENG/FRE/SA club comp with top half of each league to form a top tier comp & bottom half form a second level.20 teams in each(6/7/7) similar to how ENG/FRE want the HEC/Amlin to go.
I could see an ENG/FRE/SA club comp with top half of each league to form a top tier comp & bottom half form a second level.20 teams in each(6/7/7) similar to how ENG/FRE want the HEC/Amlin to go.
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
Join date : 2011-09-21
Re: Imagine if......
I think the secret is that Provinces have first right to a player, if you were schooled there and devloed into a pro there, your province has first right.
Your idea for an international comp is too many teams.
I like a simpler solution, domestic rugby should have the majority of schedule, an international comp should be a short version, maybe three teams of each country, a single round robin and finals.
It would take 10 weeks to complete. If the Super XV would have worked in such a concentrated format, I would be much happier too.
Your idea for an international comp is too many teams.
I like a simpler solution, domestic rugby should have the majority of schedule, an international comp should be a short version, maybe three teams of each country, a single round robin and finals.
It would take 10 weeks to complete. If the Super XV would have worked in such a concentrated format, I would be much happier too.
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Imagine if......
But if I am perfectly honest, I wouldn't want us to be part of any international comp.
You play our international team in a test, that to me is how it should be.
I like the idea of each country having their own selfishly focused domestic competition.
You play our international team in a test, that to me is how it should be.
I like the idea of each country having their own selfishly focused domestic competition.
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Imagine if......
Biltong,I prefer home & away so home advantage removed.
5 pools of 4 . Each team plays 3 others home & away ,6 matches,top teams & 3 best runner ups. quater/semi/final total max 9 matches
I like that the International comp is a chance to play other teams from different countries,competing against similar level teams
5 pools of 4 . Each team plays 3 others home & away ,6 matches,top teams & 3 best runner ups. quater/semi/final total max 9 matches
I like that the International comp is a chance to play other teams from different countries,competing against similar level teams
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
Join date : 2011-09-21
Re: Imagine if......
That could work, but ignore the quarters, , just have the pool winners go to semi finals.
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Imagine if......
Biltong wrote:But if I am perfectly honest, I wouldn't want us to be part of any international comp.
You play our international team in a test, that to me is how it should be.
I like the idea of each country having their own selfishly focused domestic competition.
I agree, I like this idea too. The Super XV started off as an interesting competition but as it has been successful, it has been diluted down. SA are the real losers in this, the Currie cup is effectively being penalised for OZ not having a proper domestic league and for every NZ franchise being up for sale. I think Super rugby would be much better if it were just the finalists from each of the 3 countries domestic competitions and likewise I think the H cup should be slimmed down.
Sadly this won't happen, the game is currently unsustainable and so the 'showpiece' events will just keep being added to, much like how internationals are boringly regular these days in order to bring in some revenue.
Bathman_in_London- Posts : 2266
Join date : 2011-06-03
Re: Imagine if......
OK. So either 4 pools of 4 (6 matches) or 5 (8 matches) winner to semi,runners up into plate comp(rugby comp tradition)
broadlandboy- Posts : 1153
Join date : 2011-09-21
Re: Imagine if......
With the 60+ odd SA players in Europe and more in NZ & AUS its easy to suggest that they have the players enough for at least another 2 or 3 franchises.
The only problem is money. Never in a million years will a team from a small town, let say the Pumas will be able to compete with a city team like WP. Even the Cheetahs and the Lions are in essence feeder teams to the big 3.
A radical shakeup would be needed to create new franchises within provinces... Cities like Cape Town, Durban, Jo'burg etc can hold more than 1 team.... like Ajax and Santos for instance. Probably the only way it would work. Try telling WP or the Bulls to split up into 2 teams though.
Another problem is... the amount of money from sponsors is as high as it can get, you can't sell more tickets for SR games outside of the Lions yet we just can't compete with European money.
The Bulls were unable to match CJ Standers contract at Munster..... I would bet any money that the Bulls sells more tickets, more merchandise etc than near any rugby side in the world... yet they still cannot match the financial power of a team playing in the 3rd most lucrative league in Europe.
I remember last year we spoke of SA looking to set up an alliance with FRA and ENG... personally I think it would be the only way they could compete, until then they will always lose players as their revenue will always be limited and a small proportion compared to what can be found elsewhere.
The only problem is money. Never in a million years will a team from a small town, let say the Pumas will be able to compete with a city team like WP. Even the Cheetahs and the Lions are in essence feeder teams to the big 3.
A radical shakeup would be needed to create new franchises within provinces... Cities like Cape Town, Durban, Jo'burg etc can hold more than 1 team.... like Ajax and Santos for instance. Probably the only way it would work. Try telling WP or the Bulls to split up into 2 teams though.
Another problem is... the amount of money from sponsors is as high as it can get, you can't sell more tickets for SR games outside of the Lions yet we just can't compete with European money.
The Bulls were unable to match CJ Standers contract at Munster..... I would bet any money that the Bulls sells more tickets, more merchandise etc than near any rugby side in the world... yet they still cannot match the financial power of a team playing in the 3rd most lucrative league in Europe.
I remember last year we spoke of SA looking to set up an alliance with FRA and ENG... personally I think it would be the only way they could compete, until then they will always lose players as their revenue will always be limited and a small proportion compared to what can be found elsewhere.
fa0019- Posts : 8196
Join date : 2011-07-25
Re: Imagine if......
I like the super rugby comp. Its just that there are too many teams. Aus stuffed it up by adding 2 teams. I don't understand why SA can't have more competitive teams (usually only 1 or 2 though 3 this year) when usually NZ can have 3 teams there or about. We've done this before but something like 3 SA, 3 Aus and 3 NZ home and away - would make a tighter more interesting competition. Especially if they represent all the best players from the whole country. In NZ it would be like a Crusaders and Highlanders combined and Blues and Hurricanes split the Chiefs players. 3 strong teams.
it would be great find a way for Super Rugby to play against HC teams. The problem is the number of teams and the busy schedules - also that the HC teams are the same as their club teams.
it would be great find a way for Super Rugby to play against HC teams. The problem is the number of teams and the busy schedules - also that the HC teams are the same as their club teams.
nganboy- Posts : 1868
Join date : 2011-05-11
Age : 55
Location : New Zealand
Re: Imagine if......
I fully agree, three teams max per country.
Biltong- Moderator
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Re: Imagine if......
The problem is which 3 teams would that be? I agree that would be ideal and you could go more or less geographically. NZ could be Crusaders (better to name them different. Speights Southern Men for example incorporating Highlanders), Hurricanes (including Chiefs and call them AMI Earth Shakers) and Auckland and the northern regions and call them the Bomaby Sapphire don't care anything beyond Bombay Bombers.
Australia: NSW, Queensland and Rest of Australia and have them play in Perth or Melbourne depending on whether their next games were in SA or NZ.
SA: The Bulls, The Stormers and the rest. Base them in Jburg, Capetown and Natal or wherever else you've incorporated the teams.
Take the Stormers. Have your conference games in SA, then play in Australia and then play in NZ. Top four teams of any country into the semis. 1st plays 4th and 2nd 3rd and then two week break for the final. Top qualifier gets home ground advantage.
Will they listen? No, they have a court order brought out against me instead.
Australia: NSW, Queensland and Rest of Australia and have them play in Perth or Melbourne depending on whether their next games were in SA or NZ.
SA: The Bulls, The Stormers and the rest. Base them in Jburg, Capetown and Natal or wherever else you've incorporated the teams.
Take the Stormers. Have your conference games in SA, then play in Australia and then play in NZ. Top four teams of any country into the semis. 1st plays 4th and 2nd 3rd and then two week break for the final. Top qualifier gets home ground advantage.
Will they listen? No, they have a court order brought out against me instead.
kiakahaaotearoa- Posts : 8287
Join date : 2011-05-10
Location : Madrid
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