Austin Healey was he the best?

First topic message reminder :

Was Austin Healey the most naturally gifted player to grace the NH game?

IMO he could have been.

Discuss.

But the very fact he could play 10 for club & country without any real shockers shows just how naturally gifted he was.

I think the vote reflects that.

Ok, I passionately dislike the man but. but he was incredibly versatile and I must disagree with something Kia said above about his stepping, he might not be the best at it, but very rarely did you see him being hit 100% on the tacklers terms, which implies that he had an ability to get his body, through footwork, into a more advantageous position for him and his team in respect of recycling or offloading. One notebale exception is Rob Henderson breaking him in Welford Road. He became a Munster ligind that day. Beautiful!!!

But most aturally gifted rugby player in the NH. Nope. Versatility is not an idication of naturally gifted players. BOD can play 13 or 12, but he is probably (many might argue for Gibson or Kyle were better and I'd accept those arguements) the most gifted player Ireland has produced and Healy isn't & wasn't fit to lace the mans boots.

But an excellent 22/23 though.

debaters1 wrote:Ok, I passionately dislike the man but. but he was incredibly versatile and I must disagree with something Kia said above about his stepping, he might not be the best at it, but very rarely did you see him being hit 100% on the tacklers terms, which implies that he had an ability to get his body, through footwork, into a more advantageous position for him and his team in respect of recycling or offloading. One notebale exception is Rob Henderson breaking him in Welford Road. He became a Munster ligind that day. Beautiful!!!

But most aturally gifted rugby player in the NH. Nope. Versatility is not an idication of naturally gifted players. BOD can play 13 or 12, but he is probably (many might argue for Gibson or Kyle were better and I'd accept those arguements) the most gifted player Ireland has produced and Healy isn't & wasn't fit to lace the mans boots.

But an excellent 22/23 though.

Interesting opinion on BOD, a ma n who if he hadn't of concentrated on being a World class 13 may well have played a myriad of positions. Great player in all aspects, with incredible defensive qualities, counts as many international turn overs as most back row forwards, often leading to Irish tries.

Realistically BOD could have likely played 7, 9, 10,11 and 14 as well as he already does at 12 or 13. I think he also played 15 for the lions in 2001...?

One thing that the likes of Healey,Cipriani and Henson don't have is humility.

It's what makes them the players they are.

Is having the ego the size of a moon a gift?

In my opinion these players are " on their day" players. Capable of excellence even at a high level but lack the consistency of truly great players. You could argue that mentally they are not there.

Their careers will always be marred by the what ifs and flaws they have.

The likes of BOD and ickle Shane will go down as greats and I think are more talented because they have shown a sustained high ability for much longer.

Even when past their prime they somehow still manage to do something special.

rodders wrote:He definitely started at least one game at fullback... it was when Jason Robinson was injured if I remember right....can't remember the exact game but it was towards the end of his England run I think.

His one start for england at FB was in a 50-10 win over Wales in 2002 - perhaps why MM is unable to recall it?

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/match/24159.html

As can be seen from his match list he was primarily used as a winger by England but did start at SH, FH and the above game at FB as well as filling in at centre from the bench

http://www.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/player/12431.html?class=1;template=results;type=player;view=match

No BS there BS mate...! Well said.

Actually, when Ireland beat England in Lansdowne in the Foot & Mouth affected year (2001) SCW went with Iain Balshaw at 15. The Irish players, management, journos & fans as soon as the teamsheet came out, mouth a silent, thanks Clive, we've got this one. Healy whould have started that day and Balsh from the first moment was targeted with success. Healy didn't have the glass jaw that Balshaw had when he wore white and that one decision probably cost that England team a Grand Slam.

Lets face it - Healey was a long way from being as good a player as HERSH cheekily suggested in the OP. He is however tainted by his gob and his versatility. He was a better player than many suggest. After all you do not gain 50+ caps in a very strong era for your country nor go on two lions tours if you are poor.

Wihtout doubt he was in the top 2 or 3. Possibly only Gavin Henson and Tim Visser ahead of him.

LondonTiger wrote:He was a better player than many suggest. After all you do not gain 50+ caps in a very strong era for your country nor go on two lions tours if you are poor.

Tell that to Donnacha O'Callaghan ....

I am surprised no-one has mentioned the sublime, RWC winning outside half.





Stephen Donald

rodders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:He was a better player than many suggest. After all you do not gain 50+ caps in a very strong era for your country nor go on two lions tours if you are poor.

Tell that to Donnacha O'Callaghan ....

Pretty sure DOC agrees with the sentiment. Leinster and Ulster fans may not.

Aw Donners knows I'm joking .... Gordon D'arcy on the other hand....

rodders wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:He was a better player than many suggest. After all you do not gain 50+ caps in a very strong era for your country nor go on two lions tours if you are poor.

Tell that to Donnacha O'Callaghan ....

Give it a rest Rodders DOC has been outstanding for Ireland....next thing you will be saying Davy Tweed was brilliant

Well Davy was underrated....

maestegmafia wrote:

debaters1 wrote:Ok, I passionately dislike the man but. but he was incredibly versatile and I must disagree with something Kia said above about his stepping, he might not be the best at it, but very rarely did you see him being hit 100% on the tacklers terms, which implies that he had an ability to get his body, through footwork, into a more advantageous position for him and his team in respect of recycling or offloading. One notebale exception is Rob Henderson breaking him in Welford Road. He became a Munster ligind that day. Beautiful!!!

But most aturally gifted rugby player in the NH. Nope. Versatility is not an idication of naturally gifted players. BOD can play 13 or 12, but he is probably (many might argue for Gibson or Kyle were better and I'd accept those arguements) the most gifted player Ireland has produced and Healy isn't & wasn't fit to lace the mans boots.

But an excellent 22/23 though.

Interesting opinion on BOD, a ma n who if he hadn't of concentrated on being a World class 13 may well have played a myriad of positions. Great player in all aspects, with incredible defensive qualities, counts as many international turn overs as most back row forwards, often leading to Irish tries.

Realistically BOD could have likely played 7, 9, 10,11 and 14 as well as he already does at 12 or 13. I think he also played 15 for the lions in 2001...?

I never said he wasn't good at it maesteg I just said he wasn't the best, as after all this is what the thread was all about even before HERSH changed the title. Jason Robinson for one was a more slippery customer than Healey in my opinion. Just because he could play more than one position doesn't necessarily have anything to do with natural ability. Shayne Philpott could play every position in the AB backline but he was so bad he thought about selling his AB cap on ebay (thankfully he didn't because it's not his fault he was selected for the ABs.)

Austin Healey had natural talent but not enough talent to hold down a position in the English squad so this thread is about as useful as saying Balshaw was one of the most lethal runners when he was on song. If he doesn't have a series of youtube clips like Christian Cullen who did that time and time again on the test scene, I don't care what he was supposed to be the best at. If you don't prove yourself in test rugby - the pinnacle of rugby - on a consistent basis then you will forever be consigned to the annals of anonymity. Harsh but true.

Good point Kia. Versatilty shouldn't be confused with talent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pph0IPpiWg

One of my favourite flawed geniuses is Carlos Spencer.

HERSH wrote:I can't help but think you're allowing Austin’s mouth to cloud your judgment!

Unfortunately this is exactly Healey's problem. He is that classic empty vessel.

As for his playing - was he naturally gifted, probably, but he was certainly naturally limited. Good in a number of positions but not the best in any.

Jiffy 'numbers' Davies live commentary ? No thanks.
But both Jiffy & Healy are very good at replay analysis.
I find both of them very insightful / engaging on the replays.

Jerry Guscott is the English back I would see as having the most natural talent from Healey's playing time.

I like Jiffy as a commentator. He's obviously Wales-centric, and talks as if to a Welsh audience, i.e. assuming that they are primarily interested in how well Wales or the Welsh team are doing, which often isn't appropriate and I can see it must be annoying. On the other hand, he's not biassed in a way that means he doesn't give credit to players from other nations, and he has a very good understanding of the game.

He was good but he was not the best imo. He used to think he was the best because he could cover the entire back row.

He used to be always talking, sometimes so the saying goes player/s used to wonder who was (in charge) captain of the team.

From the forwards of his time I'd say Neil Back was a more naturally gifted player as well.

One thing that the likes of Healey,Cipriani and Henson don't have is humility.

Healy is very different to Henson and Cips. He opened his mouth a lot but he also trained like a true pro. He survived years at England's most brutal club at the height of their power. The guy clearly had a lot of skill, he is not an all time great of the game but he was still quality and every team would love to have a 25 year old Healy in their ranks. Despite his gob he is an intelligent man who knows his rugby. He'll be remembered as a cult hero and rightly so.

Healy? not a chance... I'd say a dozen French players are more naturally gifted.

No, but I think that Healey had the best touchline scarves whilst punditing.