Racism in rugby?

Following all the headline stuff in the football season, has anyone experienced or seen any form of racist abuse at any match. (and I'm not interested in Welsh/English/Scottish stuff).
Or are we as a collective more capable of looking at a players ability, rather than the colour of their skin?

Also any chants, as the SBL(Society of black Lawyers) want spurs fans to stop chanting "yid army" even though many of them are Jewish and have no complaints from the Jewish community. have you thought any chants in rugby are offensive?

Ive heard tons of offensive chants (lots from the shed at Gloucester) but never any racist chanting.

Mind you I and many others involved in football have never seen any cases of racism.

I think the issue of racism is buoyed by the media way too much, and the more its talked about the more of an issue it'll be, and not the opposing way round which it should be (or not)

We used to taunt Ebbw Vale fans who came to the Gnoll. I think we were marginally Valleyist.

A lot of time I don't think people are actually racist as such, just thinking about the football examples. I reckon a lot of the time people accused of racism have come out with something to put other people off, something to really rile them. A racist word is the most likely to do it so they use it. If John Terry was guilty then I reckon it was along those lines, rather than being actually racist. If he was truly racist he would not be able to form friendships with black players, which I believe he has.

Not condoning it obviously. Just that racism in the true sense is a hatred for another race, whereas in the examples we see in sport I personally believe it is something shouted to rile the opposition, just like references to being fat or homosexual, etc. Doesn't necessarily mean the people hold those views, or have a hatred for black, fat, or gay people, whatever it may be. It's just used to get a reaction that they hope will give them a sporting advantage.

Anton Ferdinand is one ugly little f**ker. That's not racist.

Totally agree with the above statement. Terry obviously not a racist, nor Suarez. Maybe if we see one of them wearing a KKK outfit or marching with the BNP it may change our opinion

Griff wrote:A lot of time I don't think people are actually racist as such, just thinking about the football examples. I reckon a lot of the time people accused of racism have come out with something to put other people off, something to really rile them. A racist word is the most likely to do it so they use it. If John Terry was guilty then I reckon it was along those lines, rather than being actually racist. If he was truly racist he would not be able to form friendships with black players, which I believe he has.

Not condoning it obviously. Just that racism in the true sense is a hatred for another race, whereas in the examples we see in sport I personally believe it is something shouted to rile the opposition, just like references to being fat or homosexual, etc. Doesn't necessarily mean the people hold those views, or have a hatred for black, fat, or gay people, whatever it may be. It's just used to get a reaction that they hope will give them a sporting advantage.

Griff I wouldn't make excuses like that.

That is exactly what racism is. Your personal reason for shouting what you do might be motivated in whatever way you say it is, but you are shouting something that you know that individual will react too. If you mention the colour of their skin or distinguish their origin as an example you are being a racist.

I've never experienced or come across racism in a rugby match, or seen it on tv.
However, I have noticed there are certainly some racist attitudes amongst amateur players (usually from more privileged backgrounds).

However I think is down to their background and upbringing and it doesn't intrude into the game.

Am I alone in thinking the origins of the "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" thing is a genuine example of innaccurate racial stereotyping and therefore, genuine out right racism?

If I'm correct swing low sweet chariot is often mistenly attributed to a homage to black ex England player chris Otis. I've heard however that it is the school hymn of an English public school who would sing it throughout the matches in the late 1980s, can't recall the school name but I think it was a Jesuit school or something, anyhow from what I'm told it just caught on! If that's the case I wouldn't say it has racist origins.

maestegmafia wrote:

Griff wrote:A lot of time I don't think people are actually racist as such, just thinking about the football examples. I reckon a lot of the time people accused of racism have come out with something to put other people off, something to really rile them. A racist word is the most likely to do it so they use it. If John Terry was guilty then I reckon it was along those lines, rather than being actually racist. If he was truly racist he would not be able to form friendships with black players, which I believe he has.

Not condoning it obviously. Just that racism in the true sense is a hatred for another race, whereas in the examples we see in sport I personally believe it is something shouted to rile the opposition, just like references to being fat or homosexual, etc. Doesn't necessarily mean the people hold those views, or have a hatred for black, fat, or gay people, whatever it may be. It's just used to get a reaction that they hope will give them a sporting advantage.

Griff I wouldn't make excuses like that.

That is exactly what racism is. Your personal reason for shouting what you do might be motivated in whatever way you say it is, but you are shouting something that you know that individual will react too. If you mention the colour of their skin or distinguish their origin as an example you are being a racist.

You misunderstand me Maesteg. I'm not saying that shouting/chanting/calling isn't a form of racism. I'm saying that those people caught and charged recently, I.e. John Terry, I doubt that they're all racist in the true sense of the word (I.e. hating another race and wishing they we removed from the planet). Rather, I believe in a number of cases that these people were trying to rile the opposition in the 'heat of battle' and could so easily have been fat-ist, age-ist, bald-ist, sexist, used mother jokes, etc. Instead on those occasions, obviously wrongly, the jibe they've used is a racial one. I personally don't believe that makes John Terry a racist, just a very bad choice of jibe (if true). If he were a true racist he would not be able to share the pitch with team mates who were of another race than him.

Looseheaded wrote:I've never experienced or come across racism in a rugby match, or seen it on tv.
However, I have noticed there are certainly some racist attitudes amongst amateur players (usually from more privileged backgrounds).

However I think is down to their background and upbringing and it doesn't intrude into the game.

When you say background and upbringing, do you mean of the fans? Because in Wales rugby is a very working class sport, and the fans that go to club games tend to be working class people. Wouldn't they be the ones more likely to be racist (which is the argument giving in football in England - working class background and upbringing)? I think it's more cultural in that racism is not within rugby culture.

fa0019 wrote:If I'm correct swing low sweet chariot is often mistenly attributed to a homage to black ex England player chris Otis. I've heard however that it is the school hymn of an English public school who would sing it throughout the matches in the late 1980s, can't recall the school name but I think it was a Jesuit school or something, anyhow from what I'm told it just caught on! If that's the case I wouldn't say it has racist origins.

Hmm, if that's true then perhaps fa0019, but for me it's interesting why it caught on. If it caught on, even mistakenly on the basis that it is in homage to Otis, then is it not still some form of racism? even if the original intention of the few who sang the hymn was something quite different? From my perspective theirs is a sort of casual unintentially pejorative racism that can be unintentional but still actual racism. This is the most difficult kind to address.

I go to loads of games and I can't say I have ever heard anything offensive, the only borderline incidents was once at the Dragons when they were playing an Italian side, I did hear some fans shouting "Spagetti" at one of the Italian players who was behaving badly.

You do tend to hear a lot of shouting against Irish players "cheating paddy" or "bent Irish ****" the latter normally aimed at referees, in the Liberty Stadium.

The only incident I have ever heard against against a Coloured player was last year when Tonmawr played Bridgend in Tonmawr and one of the Black players that Tonmawr had on loan from South African province Blue Bulls was being a bit sneaky and dirty during the game an did a deliberate off the ball shoulder charge right in front of the referee to stop a quick tap and penalty. The player was immediatly yellow carded and one of the Bridgend fans shouted out "Oi butty your the wrong colour to be doing sneaky things like that, you stand out a mile on the pitch"!
Truth be told with 30 players and a referee and only 2 Black guys, they did stand out a mile and he only said what everyone else was thinking, lol.

Griff wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:I've never experienced or come across racism in a rugby match, or seen it on tv.
However, I have noticed there are certainly some racist attitudes amongst amateur players (usually from more privileged backgrounds).

However I think is down to their background and upbringing and it doesn't intrude into the game.

When you say background and upbringing, do you mean of the fans? Because in Wales rugby is a very working class sport, and the fans that go to club games tend to be working class people. Wouldn't they be the ones more likely to be racist (which is the argument giving in football in England - working class background and upbringing)? I think it's more cultural in that racism is not within rugby culture.

I mean of fans and amateur players, who are arguably one in the same. I'm talking of a select few who are what could be described as racism, they are not outwardly hateful to people of other races, and do hold them as friends and contemporaries, but there are the odd comments heard floating around. Yeah I'm talking from my eperience of rugby in England, where these individuals are from wealthier backgrounds.
I agree racism is not in rugby culture, though it can be argued that in certain areas rugby is a much less culturally diverse sport when looking at individual nations.

Griff wrote:A lot of time I don't think people are actually racist as such, just thinking about the football examples. I reckon a lot of the time people accused of racism have come out with something to put other people off, something to really rile them. A racist word is the most likely to do it so they use it. If John Terry was guilty then I reckon it was along those lines, rather than being actually racist. If he was truly racist he would not be able to form friendships with black players, which I believe he has.

Not condoning it obviously. Just that racism in the true sense is a hatred for another race, whereas in the examples we see in sport I personally believe it is something shouted to rile the opposition, just like references to being fat or homosexual, etc. Doesn't necessarily mean the people hold those views, or have a hatred for black, fat, or gay people, whatever it may be. It's just used to get a reaction that they hope will give them a sporting advantage.

+ 1

We have to ask ourselves what is racism. Is it acknowledging there are differences between races? We'll all guilty so. Technically the society of black laywers is very racist. Imagine if there was a society of white laywers! Do the society of black have anything to say about blacks making up a higher percentage of professional soccer players than there are in society? We know that answer

The media blows things out of all porportion. They want a story and are using the racism card to create stories. Sky sports news had a field day with the John Terry case. Louis Suarez incident was another that hit the headlines. They convenently ignored the fact that Suarez who is part black himself. John Terry meanwhile have loads of black friends including Ashley Cole who stood up for him.

profitius wrote:Louis Suarez incident was another that hit the headlines. They convenently ignored the fact that Suarez who is part black himself.

I hope you mean he's got a black father or something like that rather than him being Hispanic


AWOP, as I understand it a Gospel Choir started singing it when Otis got his hat-trick of tries (or something like). The crowd then took it up and it stuck. Since it was a gospel choir single a gospel song, I'm really sure how it is in any way racist unless you really REALLY trying hard to make it so.

Thin end of the wedge as far as I'm concerned. It may be 'harmless' and they may not be 'true' racists but it's the starting step to extremes. Same as sexism and homophobia.

No one said it was harmless, Hammer. People said it's perhaps done by non racists. Calling someone gay to take the mick or to mock doesn't mean that you're homophobic. Again, this is just my opinion. I admit I use the term myself in a derogatory way to straight friends all the time, but on the other hand I am completely pro gay, pro gay rights, pro gay marriage, etc. It's not big or clever, but I am not automatically a homophobe for using a common word in jest.

We need to be very careful in society because very soon, if we're to remain consistent and level across the board, then we will need to stamp out every type of derogatory term. Just as you can be arrested for saying something about my race and origin, surely the is no difference saying something about my size or looks or anything else that makes me different from you. However, is this the ways we want society and the justice system to go?

Apparently Heyneke Meyer is racist for selecting Taute over Juan De Jongh, and for selecting Lambie over Jantjies....In SA the race card is universally applicable (which is a pity because it waters down the reaction to real incidents of racism!)

thebluesmancometh wrote:Ive heard tons of offensive chants (lots from the shed at Gloucester) but never any racist chanting.

Namedrop!

Griff wrote:No one said it was harmless, Hammer

Yeah, that was my word, sorry.

People said it's perhaps done by non racists. Calling someone gay to take the mick or to mock doesn't mean that you're homophobic. Again, this is just my opinion.

I would say by definition it does (although it depend if you say 'gay' as in 'homosexual', see South Park episode on the word 'Fag'). If you use the term 'gay' as an insult it means you see it as a negative. Even if not meant in that way it maintains the cultural idea that it IS a negative thing.

I admit I use the term myself in a derogatory way to straight friends all the time, but on the other hand I am completely pro gay, pro gay rights, pro gay marriage, etc. It's not big or clever, but I am not automatically a homophobe for using a common word in jest.

We need to be very careful in society because very soon, if we're to remain consistent and level across the board, then we will need to stamp out every type of derogatory term. Just as you can be arrested for saying something about my race and origin, surely the is no difference saying something about my size or looks or anything else that makes me different from you. However, is this the ways we want society and the justice system to go?

Being big or small, ugly or pretty generally haven't got centuries of persecution, abuse and murder as baggage. The use of such words for general insults propagates the idea they're bad. This then has a subconscious effect on behavior.

HammerofThunor wrote:
Being big or small, ugly or pretty generally haven't got centuries of persecution, abuse and murder as baggage...

Yes they do.
e.g.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_people_with_albinism

The Nazis also persecuted and murdered people with any "abnormality" such as dwarfism, gigantism and so on...

Are you saying albinos are big, small, ugly or pretty? The Nazis persecuted a lot of people (in fact wasn't it almost everybody?).

However I don't think Griff meant albinos or people with dwarfism and gigantism when he said mentioned size or appearance.

Shifty wrote:I go to loads of games and I can't say I have ever heard anything offensive, the only borderline incidents was once at the Dragons when they were playing an Italian side, I did hear some fans shouting "Spagetti" at one of the Italian players who was behaving badly.

You do tend to hear a lot of shouting against Irish players "cheating paddy" or "bent Irish ****" the latter normally aimed at referees, in the Liberty Stadium.

The only incident I have ever heard against against a Coloured player was last year when Tonmawr played Bridgend in Tonmawr and one of the Black players that Tonmawr had on loan from South African province Blue Bulls was being a bit sneaky and dirty during the game an did a deliberate off the ball shoulder charge right in front of the referee to stop a quick tap and penalty. The player was immediatly yellow carded and one of the Bridgend fans shouted out "Oi butty your the wrong colour to be doing sneaky things like that, you stand out a mile on the pitch"!
Truth be told with 30 players and a referee and only 2 Black guys, they did stand out a mile and he only said what everyone else was thinking, lol.

From your post, Shifty, I infer that you do not think the text I have emboldened is racist. Am I right? Are we here working on the assumption that only white people can be racist against non-white people?

Calling Irish people "Paddy" is racist, plain and simple.

KiaRose wrote:

Shifty wrote:I go to loads of games and I can't say I have ever heard anything offensive, the only borderline incidents was once at the Dragons when they were playing an Italian side, I did hear some fans shouting "Spagetti" at one of the Italian players who was behaving badly.

You do tend to hear a lot of shouting against Irish players "cheating paddy" or "bent Irish ****" the latter normally aimed at referees, in the Liberty Stadium.

The only incident I have ever heard against against a Coloured player was last year when Tonmawr played Bridgend in Tonmawr and one of the Black players that Tonmawr had on loan from South African province Blue Bulls was being a bit sneaky and dirty during the game an did a deliberate off the ball shoulder charge right in front of the referee to stop a quick tap and penalty. The player was immediatly yellow carded and one of the Bridgend fans shouted out "Oi butty your the wrong colour to be doing sneaky things like that, you stand out a mile on the pitch"!
Truth be told with 30 players and a referee and only 2 Black guys, they did stand out a mile and he only said what everyone else was thinking, lol.

From your post, Shifty, I infer that you do not think the text I have emboldened is racist. Am I right? Are we here working on the assumption that only white people can be racist against non-white people?

Calling Irish people "Paddy" is racist, plain and simple.

What the hell are you on about?

The opening poster was interested if anyone has experienced any form of racism at rugby games and I posted my experiences based on the amount of games I go to.

I think you might want to re-read what I wrote, I never said anything either way about agreeing or disagreeing with what other people have said.

So paddy power betting company is racist ?

I have to deal with being called "pom" on a daily basis because of my English origin. However I don't feel it's racist.

Prisoner
Of
Mother England

Which is of course a reference to the convicts that were shipped to Oz so it's hardly a name with positive conitations but its only a laugh and I always think back to what my mum told me on my first day of school

"Sticks and stones will brake my bones but names will never hurt me"

If anyone is seriously offended my a nickname such as Paddy , Taff , Polly or Pom they seriously need to grow up