Worst Welsh performance ever.

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Where to start?? Nothing happened.

They did throw away a crucial lineout and scrum late on, that was a highlight.

What was Poland for? No desire and no ideas. So so so boring. Did Howley even do a half time team talk???

So do I and a lot of Welsh. It was the reason Biggar was booed a lot by his home fans in the past, because every time he got into the opposition 22 he would attempt a drop-goal and miss. Priestland has been booed a number of times for attempting drop-goals. Every drop-goal attempt by RP is now gauranteed a few boo's because we know that is not a strength of his. My head goes into my hands if I see repeated drop-goal attempts.

Argentina were excellent in the second half, defence was well-organised and completely committed and they started to show some ideas with the ball. I can only remember two instances of Welsh players beating people, once Scott Williams and once Mike Phillips.

With Wales, they just didn't know what to do with the ball when they had it - no ideas about how to adapt to try to unlock that defence. No moves to create space. I think they expected Argentina to miss tackles, and didn't know what to do when they didn't. Poor kicking. Ball carriers seem to run away from support (and/or people not working hard enough to be there/reacting quickly enough). Also shown up for trying to cover umpteen options rather than making sure key positions are covered on the bench - the pack was badly underpowered.

Phillips, Tipuric have to come in and we must have a proper 2nd row and tighthead sub on the bench, even if the latter means Samson Lee.

Apart from his awful box-kicking, there were a large number of occasions when Knoyle went to the blind side where Wales were outnumbered, once it was something like 2 against 5 and he still went blind. He made a couple of good takes under the high ball, but his play is just too headless chicken - got to have Phillips back.

Howlers is just not bright or tactically astute enough to be an international coach.

I feel a bit for Knoyle, he wasn't that bad, he made a lot of mistakes we blame Phillips for but that blind saide work HAS to be a tactic, problem is when your outnumbered blind side getting the ball back is very difficult!!!

That said at the breakdown Argy threw numbers and at times Knoyle looked like an absolute rag doll!!!!

The problem with the Welsh attack was the slow ball, and IMO Roberts from Northampton would offered a much sharper and classier delivery, as would Davies. Phillips a like did nothing of note, and in fact in that arm wrestly type games Phillips style wouldve helped a lot.

Just want to mention Falatau, almost coming of age game for him, he tried to lead the pack, carried well (even though outnumbered) and tackled like a monster. Best player on the park in red by a country mile, his Dragons form has been ropy but maybe playing in a beaten pack has readied him for Wales games, at least he's been playing regularly!!!

It is a tactic, Bluesman, and it's been a tactic for season after season. The blame must lie with Gatland as much as it does with Howley. But we play like robots. Whatever happened to playing what you see in front of you?

And yes, nobody in a red shirt worked harder than Toby did.

For me I think the forwards needed to take the ball on more. It was obvious the backs weren't doing much and so as the captain warburton should have said 'right boys, keep it in tight, go in two and threes and suck the defense in.' Priestland has no choice but to drift because as soon as he got the ball the argie defense was up. Had the forwards done that we might have seen some space out wide. That is what Ryan Jones brings to the team. Even when he's not captain he has the brain to see that sort of thing and implement a change.

as a few posters have mentioned - completely predictable in attack. No support runners looking for the offload. Just going from ruck to ruck. Also, if its not working - CHANGE IT!!! Did RP try any grubbers or little chips over the top to turn the defence? Nope, just up and unders about 50yds too long.......

I feel I should apologise for having written this a few days ago:

'The difference between the All Blacks' use of the ball and our use of it a day earlier was striking. Both sides' backlines stood deep, but while the All Blacks took the ball to the line, drew the defender and then passed, we shipped the ball to the wing while still behind the gain line and the Argentinian defence could just drift across to cover the wings. We asked nothing of them. It was disgraceful. And who is Wales' skills / attack coach? Oh, that's right, it's Rob Howley.'

It turns out that our skills coach is Neil Jenkins. Sorry, Howlers, you're only partly to blame.

jinks is kicking technique, kicking skills, as in getting best distance etc ( brilliant work with 1/2p ) howley is tactical kicking .....where to put the ball kicking out of hand,NEVER IN TOUCH, thats the biggest sin of all!

also , as tattered says.. if it aint working CHANGE IT

but the players are not allowed to change it, and if you mouth about it, you wont be picked.( whisper danny boy, whisper!!!)

guscott said he had never seen warbs get the players and start talking to them when things were not working , lineouts, scrums, anything.

he said that on the tv. no-one has challenged him, and if that has been his observation then proves a point. why would warbs say anything? you cant change the plan. put up, shut up.

gethin said 'wrong tactics' after the game. didnt they SPEAK UP at 1/2 time? no, as stephen jones also said on tv. warbs may say a few words , but he lets howley do the talking.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
It turns out that our skills coach is Neil Jenkins. Sorry, Howlers, you're only partly to blame.

Crikey - I know playing doesnt necessarily translate to coaching, but, Neil Jenkins? He may have had few peers as a kicker but the rest of his game was poor to put it mildly

Gavstar:

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/wales/management/2308.php

'In the autumn of 2004 Jenkins returned to the Welsh Rugby Union in the capacity of Kicking Skills Coach, working with the then newly formed WRU Academies to improve the future generations of outside halves. In the summer of 2006 he returned to the National Squad set up as Skills Coach, where he first worked for Gareth Jenkins during the 2007 Rugby World Cup campaign and subsequently Warren Gatland's management team.

N.B. The WRU website also has Rob Howley as forwards coach.

lostinwales wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
It turns out that our skills coach is Neil Jenkins. Sorry, Howlers, you're only partly to blame.

Crikey - I know playing doesnt necessarily translate to coaching, but, Neil Jenkins? He may have had few peers as a kicker but the rest of his game was poor to put it mildly

Couldn't we pay, say, Thomas Castaignede to send a few 'skills tips' over via twitter? He 'schooled' poor old Jenks enough times.

I remember the match at Wembley in 1998. Castaignede had him chasing shadows. They won 51 - 0.

curtains and mirrors, mirrors and curtains, lets stick jinks down and he can take the flack!!!!! WE KNOW who is to blame, and its not poor bloody jenkins, thats for sure, no way can they start pinning this on him.

first its 'bench are not good enough,' now its the skills coach jenkins! do us a f favour!!! what a load of ba**s!!!

Well actually it's a good point. Why is someone who never had any great skills our skills coach? Who makes these decisions. When Gatland leaves I would hope the entire coaching staff are fresh faces.

Coaches are a funny thing, most people tend to beleive that players generally make the best coaches because they were the best, but the key word in that sentence is were or was!!!

Rugby moves on so quick that players training techniques become obsolete within months, so a recently retired player will be coaching old fashioned technical and tactical issues for ages.

IMVHO the best coaches are those who commit themselves to the game as a coach, playing ability has nothing to do with coaching!!

A good coach has the foresight to see where the game is going, they understand the problems of each section of their speciality and can think for themselves in order to fix those problems.

+1 for bluesman...so true

...but I'd add that even coaches who haven't played can suddenly find themselves in a world that has moved on rapidly in rugby theory and they either can't or won't follow along.

Oh of course.

IMO the best coaches are generally the biggest geeks, can't stop reading about, watching, and looking into every angle of the game. Who's doing what, why theyre doing it and how could it be improved.

One positive out of the central contracts debate would be the WRU's extra control over the regions.

Would be great to see them headhunt and recruit coaching teams for the regions. Imagine how much better the Wales players would be if each region had its own Gatland or Meyer.

If the regions can't afford to keep hold of players how are they going to afford world class coaching teams?!

Eh?

I'm not on about now. I'm saying if the regions gave up their control and gave it to the WRU along with the whole central contracts thing.

If the WRU has the control then they will flood the regions with more money for top coaches and the top players would be employed by the WRU and bound to Wales.

At the moment the regions are independently run businesses so why would the WRU give them extra cash or support It won't be long before Peter Thomas copies Mike Cuddy and releases his grip on the Blues.

Regions aren't a good business model especially in their current format. Performances consistently poor and attendences miniscule compared to Ireland and England.

The WRU have transformed dramatically in the past 10 years. They have gone from massive debts to massive profits. They are masters at marketing and merchandising. They have imposed professionalism to the national squad in a big way. They have had 3 clean sweeps in 7 years when there was nothing previous for 27 years. They are good at recruiting the best people and world class coaches.

This is the organisation we want running our regions and their finances. Look how many Heineken cups have come from Ulster, Munster and Leinster. I don't think the IRFU are any better than the WRU as the Irish national side is far from perfect, but it shows how the game is thriving domestically with that organisations involvement.

you cant be serious!!!!! no i know you cant be!!!! control control control control, thats what s got us in the mess we're in !!

elaborate????

What mess??

10 years ago we had 10 mediocre clubs and our national side was full of old players losing 50-10 to England and 54-10 to Ireland.

I think what we have now is a miracle if you consider the not aol distant past.

The current system needs to be improved for true success to start.

Firstly Wales were 10 years behind the rest of the world regarding professionalism 10 years ago!!!!

2ndly I know you are a wum because you beleive welsh rugby is not in a mess...

CARDIFF blues are in a mess. Not all of Wales.

The Dragons are blooming I take it? Oh and the Scarlets and Ospreys are both riding high in their HC groups???

The O's finances and ownership are very organised? Their relationships with their clubs top notch?

The regions have all crashed out of europe at round 2 of a 6 round group stage, the relationships between regions, clubs, and WRU are at the lowest they have ever been, stadiums are empty, welsh internationals are leaving in their droves and every region is losing money!!!

Are things rosy in your little dreamland roger?!

thebluesmancometh wrote:The Dragons are blooming I take it? Oh and the Scarlets and Ospreys are both riding high in their HC groups???

The O's finances and ownership are very organised? Their relationships with their clubs top notch?

The regions have all crashed out of europe at round 2 of a 6 round group stage, the relationships between regions, clubs, and WRU are at the lowest they have ever been, stadiums are empty, welsh internationals are leaving in their droves and every region is losing money!!!

Are things rosy in your little dreamland roger?!

Wow BMC you really have some audacity...!

You claim to be welsh have pretty much bugger all knowledge of welsh rugby, constantly slate every aspect of it a make statements like, "I know you are a wum because you beleive welsh rugby is not in a mess..."

I havn't a clue whether anyone else takes you seriously but after reading your contributions on this thread as well as the many many others, I think it is you who is on the wind up.

Cheers Maesteg,

I think what I said made sense!

maestegmafia wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:The Dragons are blooming I take it? Oh and the Scarlets and Ospreys are both riding high in their HC groups???

The O's finances and ownership are very organised? Their relationships with their clubs top notch?

The regions have all crashed out of europe at round 2 of a 6 round group stage, the relationships between regions, clubs, and WRU are at the lowest they have ever been, stadiums are empty, welsh internationals are leaving in their droves and every region is losing money!!!

Are things rosy in your little dreamland roger?!

Wow BMC you really have some audacity...!

You claim to be welsh have pretty much bugger all knowledge of welsh rugby, constantly slate every aspect of it a make statements like, "I know you are a wum because you beleive welsh rugby is not in a mess..."

I havn't a clue whether anyone else takes you seriously but after reading your contributions on this thread as well as the many many others, I think it is you who is on the wind up.

I always thought Blue was a well balenced Welshman (chip on both shoulders) before anyone moans to the mods tongue in cheek!

But I'm glad I'm not the only 606er Mae is rude too.

MM
You are truly deluded mate, I'm not sure if you actually believe the game is in a good state is Wales or wether your just an MS cashcow like so many others but your tone is rude, your knowledge lacking and you encourage no debate, you make no actual points but insult people who disagree!

HERSH

I have so many chips it's worth ordering some fish!!! But then name me a welshman without a chip on his shoulder and I'll show you an imposter!

thebluesmancometh wrote:MM
You are truly deluded mate, I'm not sure if you actually believe the game is in a good state is Wales or wether your just an MS cashcow like so many others but your tone is rude, your knowledge lacking and you encourage no debate, you make no actual points but insult people who disagree!

HERSH

I have so many chips it's worth ordering some fish!!! But then name me a welshman without a chip on his shoulder and I'll show you an imposter!

Spelling and grammar is what's in a bad state.

Uh oh the grammer police are in, if deres one ting i cant stand its planks hwo attack spelling and gramma because they have no ability to debate the issues, eh rog?

There is no debate.

I'm saying that Welsh rugby is not in dire straits.

NATIONAL SIDE: Healthiest it's ever been.
REGIONS: This season is marginally poor and improvements / Changes are needed. OK Heineken cups elude us, but the Ospreys have won the Celtic / Italian league FOUR times.

You disagree with everything I say and you claim the only reason is turning professional 10 years too late.

It's no surprise Wales won a slam 18 months after regional rugby was launched. The change in professionalism at the WRU is what has seen the dramatic improvements from the dark decades of the 80s and 90s.

Of course ther slams were no surprise (unless you were a rugby fan)

Henry put numerous systems in place to aid the national team, or was he a product of regionalism too?

What we had at the inception of regionalism was all our eggs in one basket, our regions were crammed full of talent from 1 to 15 and they were competitive. But now 10 years later (and the time limit we were told for the new generation of players to start delivering HC success) and the regions have never been weaker, no euro challenge, players leaving in their droves, all regions losing money and empty stadiums. This is all in essence because rugby fans didn't really want the regions, and the WRU has tried to outbreed those fans unsuccesfully!!!

The dark days of 80's and 90's had their own trials, economic factors effected the sport as it doesn't today, different pull for players.

You can't compare anything about todays game with pre regional rugby, it was a different world and does not effect todays game.

How can you claim the Rabo as a success when you know as well as I do that no teams take it seriously while a european run is possible, the Rabo is a joke league that doesn't matter until the playoffs!!

The national team is strong (well strongest for Wales) but do you see this sustaining with new trials of player exodus etc?

And do you attribute the NT success on regionalism? Or a very talented group of players (who by the way were cultivated by clubs in the most part not regions) and a strong management team?

There is plenty to debate, the state of the professional game in Wales is certainly not one of them, until the national team start to struggle, and they will noone believes the problems!!