Worst Welsh performance ever.

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Where to start?? Nothing happened.

They did throw away a crucial lineout and scrum late on, that was a highlight.

What was Poland for? No desire and no ideas. So so so boring. Did Howley even do a half time team talk???

Hate to be so right about so many things in the lead up to this game.
Tipuric won the kickoff legitimatey with his 1st touch and the turned Argentina over about a minute later. What a difference a 7 would have made. When McCusker was brought on instead of him, I've never felt so disappointed as a Wales supporter in my life. This management side are so rigid, which you could understand if their tactics worked.
Worst performance (or lack of) since the nineties.
Howley has put himself in a ridiculous position with Warburton, now has to drop Priestland, rather than just not starting him today, and will drop Knoyle as well. Nice man management.

McCusker and Turnbull are too lightweight to be in that team, they should not be covering a second row. Warburton and Faletau were poor at the breakdown. Preistland is clueless at stand off he should be right off the field and play Hook at 10 and Biggar on the bench also start with Phillips.

I hope R Jones is back soon and make him captain as Warburton should be on the bench.

Surprising what perception is on two games,Wales did`nt play that well against
a very good Argentina side.England scored 7 tries against a willing Fiji side that was hopelessly outclassed.England made more mistakes and dropped passes
in the first 40 minutes than Wales in the whole game.Had the AllBlacks won like that versus Fiji there media would have slaughtered them.
Both sides looked very rusty England will take the win and rebuild for the next games.Wales will say it was one of those games and start again,for those taking
it out of Wales.Argentina are VERY difficult to play against ask the 3Ns giants they did`nt exactly destroy them.

MMaaxx wrote:No need to overreact or knock Wales too much. All teams have off days. But it is important to acknowledge that this is a seriously good Argentina team. As underrated as Wales may be overrated. They should've already had wins over SA and AUS this year. The loss should really not be seen as too shocking but rather a fair indication of the quality of the 6N compared to the RC. It remains easier to achieve a GS for a 6N team than beat one of the 3 (soon to be 4) SH teams.

This game was always going to be close even if Wales had been sharper. The BBC pundits got it completely wrong too. Even in defeat all Jones could say was 'we know Wales are berrer' and unfortunately failed to acknowledge Argentina. Before the game Guscott said this Wales team is good enough to regularly beat the big 3 SH teams. I agree that their record should be better than it is vs SA, AUS and NZ though.

Halfpenny looks class, really like him and Phillips is an important cog in the Wales team even if regularly criticizeonly fans. He brings the strike runners like North into the game which was lacking today. Shame Roberts went off early.

no sorry-Wales were dire and the Argies were not much better-as a grand slam team the Pumas should have been put to bed-poor selection,poor game management and POOR

emack2 wrote:Surprising what perception is on two games,Wales did`nt play that well against
a very good Argentina side.England scored 7 tries against a willing Fiji side that was hopelessly outclassed.England made more mistakes and dropped passes
in the first 40 minutes than Wales in the whole game.Had the AllBlacks won like that versus Fiji there media would have slaughtered them.
Both sides looked very rusty England will take the win and rebuild for the next games.Wales will say it was one of those games and start again,for those taking
it out of Wales.Argentina are VERY difficult to play against ask the 3Ns giants they did`nt exactly destroy them.

Having read these boards for some time now....I've just noticed your age..

I'll put your nonsense down to althszeimers and not worry too much about it!

Why Ultra? I agree with emack.

I think you guys are being too hard on yourselves.

Argentina are very good team even if they were missing a few 1st choice players, it's nothing to be ashamed about losing at home by 14 points to a team ranked lower than you in the IRB world rankings.

glamorganalun wrote:McCusker and Turnbull are too lightweight to be in that team, they should not be covering a second row. Warburton and Faletau were poor at the breakdown. Preistland is clueless at stand off he should be right off the field and play Hook at 10 and Biggar on the bench also start with Phillips.

I hope R Jones is back soon and make him captain as Warburton should be on the bench.

Faletau "poor" your joking -were it not for Toby it would have been even worse.

I thought Faletau was the only one of the forwards (and young Jarvis) who at least showed a bit of mental out there.

Warburton was poor we all know (bar Howley) that he's out of form.
Turnbull again poor
AWJ lost ball to often before going off injured
Jenkins not even starting for Toulon.

As for the captaincy well thats a tricky one. I have always said that Ryan Jones plays better without it so I probably wouldn't give it to him.

Before Warburton got it Rees had it and done a very good job but I think Hibbard is the form No2 ATM.

ultra wrote:

emack2 wrote:Surprising what perception is on two games,Wales did`nt play that well against
a very good Argentina side.England scored 7 tries against a willing Fiji side that was hopelessly outclassed.England made more mistakes and dropped passes
in the first 40 minutes than Wales in the whole game.Had the AllBlacks won like that versus Fiji there media would have slaughtered them.
Both sides looked very rusty England will take the win and rebuild for the next games.Wales will say it was one of those games and start again,for those taking
it out of Wales.Argentina are VERY difficult to play against ask the 3Ns giants they did`nt exactly destroy them.

Having read these boards for some time now....I've just noticed your age..

I'll put your nonsense down to althszeimers and not worry too much about it!

Well I thought the same about the England match. So far today so many matches have showed inept skill levels out wide with balls being thrown over the sideline, lost easily in tackles and just n creativity out there. Whenever a ball went wide 'hopeful' was the best way to describe the move sometimes.

Ireland and SA were the same- no attacking nouse out wide whatsoever. Samoa at least showed cunning out wide making the most of the little space they had,

Havnt seen the Argie match yet as we got the England then SA match. France Oz next then a delayed Wales then Italy match.

Argies strong showing in the Rugby Ch. this year must have been a factor in the win, particularly the margin. Without having seen the match they somehow must have found things 'easier' particularly against a first up Wales.

howley picked the team. should have had biggar, phillips, hibbard, tipuric starting. could even have tried hook at 10 as he so dislikes biggar, but hook plays better coming on later as a 10 than starting in the headlights.

priest didnt have a clue. hasnt deserved his place and anyone who thought otherwise before the game must realise that now.

howley picked the bench too, and left it wanting, so yes he is as much to blame as the players.

Ultra my opinion is as valid as yours,IF you think missing tackles,throwing wild passes,dropping balls all over the place is nonsense.Maybe you should have a crack at the Sky pundits too.Fiji for the first 20 minutes or so were willing but the Scrum and Maul defence was poor especially in the Second Half.England butchered at least as many points as they scored.Wales were at least competing at setpiece. Scrum and Lineout until late on when they were chasing the game and messed up the odd one.Argentina played probably the best I have seen them this season and are notoriously difficult to break down .As England ,Scotland,NZ proved in the RWC,and France and the 3Ns have since gone are the days .When they were easy beats Alzheimers?something i`m afraid of.BUT NOT YET,I know my Rugby as many here will attest i`m not quite past it yet.England if they want a seeding will have to improve 100% at least to win the next 3 matches.

Can't disagree that Argentina were by far the better side. The passion and execution they brought to the RC they seem to have brought to the Autumn and boy did it pay off. Now I'm trying to sound unbiased as possible here, because Argentina played very well, but it was the worst performace from my team I have seen in two years. I don't know where to begin. I won't analyse it right now I may do an article tomorrow. Who takes the blame for an unacceptable performance where Wales fail to score a try? Well Howler in part yes, but also the majority of disinterested players who started today. The squad was widely criticised before the game and as much as I had hoped we were all wrong, we were spot on.

Well done Argentina anyway .

HERSH wrote:I think you guys are being too hard on yourselves.

Argentina are very good team even if they were missing a few 1st choice players, it's nothing to be ashamed about losing at home by 14 points to a team ranked lower than you in the IRB world rankings.

HERSH I can't believe so many people disagreed with your predictions. You were spot on.

emack2 wrote:Ultra my opinion is as valid as yours,IF you think missing tackles,throwing wild passes,dropping balls all over the place is nonsense.Maybe you should have a crack at the Sky pundits too.Fiji for the first 20 minutes or so were willing but the Scrum and Maul defence was poor especially in the Second Half.England butchered at least as many points as they scored.Wales were at least competing at setpiece. Scrum and Lineout until late on when they were chasing the game and messed up the odd one.Argentina played probably the best I have seen them this season and are notoriously difficult to break down .As England ,Scotland,NZ proved in the RWC,and France and the 3Ns have since gone are the days .When they were easy beats Alzheimers?something i`m afraid of.BUT NOT YET,I know my Rugby as many here will attest i`m not quite past it yet.England if they want a seeding will have to improve 100% at least to win the next 3 matches.

NZ also did this last match against Oz so it does seem there is a trend that defensive strategies built up across the globe since the tackle ball rule favoured the attacking side has meant its tougher on backs to get the ball through and the higher number of attampts is highlighting an equally high number of errors.

Variation and patience must be the solution to preventing these often 15-20 phase movements only for one stray knock on, forced pass to end it all. Samoa stood out today in terms of varying their play. All the other sides spent the match with one ups or side to side stuff until one side stuffed up- and they all did at some point. England scored some good stuff but probably left 20 points out there as well.

Wales could not have played as badly if Argie didnt pressure them and they competed with real merit in 4 of the 6 R Champ matches so this scoreline was not completely unexpected.

ultra wrote:

emack2 wrote:Surprising what perception is on two games,Wales did`nt play that well against
a very good Argentina side.England scored 7 tries against a willing Fiji side that was hopelessly outclassed.England made more mistakes and dropped passes
in the first 40 minutes than Wales in the whole game.Had the AllBlacks won like that versus Fiji there media would have slaughtered them.
Both sides looked very rusty England will take the win and rebuild for the next games.Wales will say it was one of those games and start again,for those taking
it out of Wales.Argentina are VERY difficult to play against ask the 3Ns giants they did`nt exactly destroy them.

Having read these boards for some time now....I've just noticed your age..

I'll put your nonsense down to althszeimers and not worry too much about it!

Can I just say I think that that kind of statement does not belong here. Racist, sexist or ageist - there's not much difference.
I think that emack has taken it too far - the media wouldn't be slaughtering the ABs if they won with that score but there would be little celebrating.

i said howley picked players out of form and it would bite us in the bu* and it did, so the likes of maes, who thinks the priest is great and 1990 rugby b plan thinking is out of date..... think again.... you know nothing....proved today. where are you ??? i'm waiting for those pearls of 'non' wisdom ....man up ....you were wrong.

Have to say we were very well beaten. Not only did we not score a try, we never looked like scoring one. Usually after a top match like this there all kinds of incidents and near misses to discuss. This time there are none on our side. It was the Argentinians who missed 2 penalties and butchered a couple of DGs. So we don't even have the consolation of "coulda, woulda, shoulda."

This has been coming down the line since the 6N. The string of defeats to Oz was poor, though the optimists insisting on putting a positive spin on it. In reality it was a weak Australian team that was beaten by the Scots and now smashed by the French.

Conservative selection, conservative tactics, kicking away possession = same old, same old.

Jarvis did well, but that was about it. The forwards were bossed by the Argentinians and with weak half-backs our outside backs had little opportunity.

All credit to the Argentinians. Their back row was immense. Their 9 was a different class from Knoyle, and that little winger chopped down Cuthbert every time.

majesticimperialman wrote:Is it time to sack the coach? (Riob Howely )

Who?

I know that you lads are disappointed, but I find myself agreeing with the folks above that I think there was a lot of underestimating the Argentines by a number of posters that simply didn't know anything about them.

I watch a lot of Top 14, which I think is actually at a higher standard than last year and it's clear that times have changed in terms of where most of the Pumas play: JM Hernandez (Racing Metro), F Contepomi (Stade Francais), J Imhoff (Racing Metro), N Sanchez (Bordeaux-Begles), J Figallo (Montpellier); M Carizza (Racing Metro), JM Leguizamon (Lyon), JM Fernandez Lobbe (Toulon).

Ayerza is a Tiger and as ASBO will tell you, Camacho plays for the [second] best team in the Jeff:

Add to that a season of regularly playing the SANZAR nations and you have to ask whether the Pumas performance was really all that surprising. I think that the interview with Phelan after the match was quite telling where he calmly said that he was pleased but the players had merely played to their current club form.

George,

I think you are right some did underestimate them and expect a win, I thought we would by no more than a score.

BUT what is annoying, embarrassing call it what you like is the manner of the loss.

We never looked like scoring were clueless and directionless and didn't seem to have a plan A let alone plan B.

Howley is out of his depth and there were players on that pitch so out form it was e=fair on them in the end.

Worst Welsh performance ever?

Possibly!

What an awful game. I hope the players feel how much they let themselves, the management and us down.

That kind of abject, would say performance but they certainly didnt perform, should not happen.

Sorry Maes but the management should be the first in line to take the blame.His selection, again was shocking and there were at least 5 players who started that game who have not been showing anywhere near good enough form.

I disagree with this constant excuse about management being responsible for players performances.

It's absolute rubbish. Those guys didnt use their intelligence, team work or skill to any sort of ability.

They need to stop dropping passes, tackle better, think more and work a lot harder.

Doesn't matter who the coach is he can do bugger all with the team playing that badly 1-15.

If you fired the coaches today, the team wouldn't be any better tomorrow unless they decide to work harder in the game

One thing I have noticed over this season with Wales is that they use the same type of attack over and over, inside ball to either North or Cuthbert in the midfield, sometimes too close to the forwards who cover the space around the breakdowns, it hasn't worked all year with much effectiveness as teams are prepared for it.

Maybe it is time they change it up a bit.

But they pick them players in the first place and those players have been clearly off form.

If they pick them then they should at least have the balss to make changes if things not going right.

I think we all know that Tipuric wouldn't have come on if Warburton hadn't taken a knock.

OFFLOAD!

Why aren't Wales doing it?

bedfordwelsh wrote:But they pick them players in the first place and those players have been clearly off form.

If they pick them then they should at least have the balss to make changes if things not going right.

I think we all know that Tipuric wouldn't have come on if Warburton hadn't taken a knock.

True beds mate.

Form is temporary class is permenent, these players are so much better than how they played yesterday.

maestegmafia wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:But they pick them players in the first place and those players have been clearly off form.

If they pick them then they should at least have the balss to make changes if things not going right.

I think we all know that Tipuric wouldn't have come on if Warburton hadn't taken a knock.

True beds mate.

Form is temporary class is permenent, these players are so much better than how they played yesterday.

Or they are over-hyped!

A bounce of a ball and a couple of favorable Refereeing decisions can hide a load of problems, its not like these guys are ripping it up for their clubs either.

Sorry Regions!

Can we cancel the all blacks game?

Biltong wrote:One thing I have noticed over this season with Wales is that they use the same type of attack over and over, inside ball to either North or Cuthbert in the midfield, sometimes too close to the forwards who cover the space around the breakdowns, it hasn't worked all year with much effectiveness as teams are prepared for it.

Maybe it is time they change it up a bit.

To me it looks like the players aren't offering better angles or lines in attack.roberts is the main culprit in the backs, most of our forwards were guilty of such yesterday, though not so when we won the third GS in eight years...!

At least we will beat Samoa.

Wales: 9
Pen: Biggar (5, 10)
DG: Biggar (79)

Samoa: 8
Try: Takabakamasapusu (50)
Pen: Pisiwisi (30)

The Facts:
Argentina are a very good side who have not looked out of place playing the big 3.
Wales looked comfortable in the first half, but when Alun Wyn went off and a flanker was brought on Wales forwards started to struggle. When Roberts went off and Hook came on Wales defence started to struggle.
Quite why Priestland is being blamed, I am not sure, but I supose its the "Welsh Way"!
Picking from a fully fit squad (apart from Adam Jones) the only changes I would make are: Phillips for Knoyle, Jon Davies for Williams, Ryan for Turnbull. Also I would have a lock on the bench. If Roberts and Alan Wyn are injured then Williams and Charteris come in.

RogerLewis wrote:Can we cancel the all blacks game?

Only if you get a sick note from Rob Howley's mum.

If you have a game like yesterday then you should be wanting a game against the ABs. I'm sure the Welsh players think they can play better so playing Samoa, Australia and NZ are the perfect games in my opinion to suck it up, take the loss and learn from it and know that you will have to raise your game in order to compete.

Wales will never learn anything from yesterday playing Italy, Fiji and Romania for example. They played poorly. Now's the chance to rectify that.

Ooh, Kia, I can't agree with you there mate.

Wales can take a lot from that match, their attack has been ineffective against Argentina, it should tell them much about what has to change

That's my point mate. They can take a lot from that match but use those lessons learned against meaningful opposition. I was responding to the comment Wales should cancel the ABs game. What better game to have to motivate you out of this rut in form Wales finds itself in. Fear can be used as a powerful motivating factor. France seem to be able to use it very well.

My bad.

Biltong wrote:Wales can take a lot from that match, their attack has been ineffective against Argentina, it should tell them much about what has to change

You are right there can be a huge amount taken from that game, learning from your mistakes etc.

The problem is there is only a week and there were many mistakes.

Agree with many of the points raised above by Seagultaf. Desperation and over reaction are not the way out of bad performance, teamwork and intelligent solutions are...!

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:Ooh, Kia, I can't agree with you there mate.

Wales can take a lot from that match, their attack has been ineffective against Argentina, it should tell them much about what has to change

You are right there can be a huge amount taken from that game, learning from your mistakes etc.

The problem is there is only a week and there were many mistakes.

Most important would be the attacking variations.

Rather than insisting the big boys run into traffic, figure a way where they can really be useful, one on one

Simple difference yesterday really, Argentina offloaded in the tackle very well and stopped Wales having time to organise their defence. Wales took the ball into contact every time and tried to build phases, Argentina had so much time to form their defensive lines that there was never a threat of breaking their lines.

Add that to the fact that Wales seemed to look as if they had a right to win on reputation alone and the result was not in doubt for me after the 1st 20 mins.

Well played Argentina, you showed the NH yesterday that you have much more than a strong pack.

2ndtime and Bill

Their were no players offering intelligent lines in the welsh team yesterday. We were behind the posts and the Argentinians were offering so many more angles from deep. The welsh players were flat and static.

Yeah you need a 10 that can spark the backline, less forward pods and getting the ball wider before hitting contact.

Not the worst performance ever because our set piece was ok and for the most of it our defence was good. Where we are really stuggling and most of you pointed this out is attack. I've started watching a lot of SH rugby over the last 2-3 years, I was getting bored of some of the rubbish in the pro12. But it's from watching these games that I have noticed the completely different mindset to attack.

Wales are going to struggle against any well organised defence until they re-learn how to run decent support lines and offloading skills. I got bored sat there yesterday watching every back go down to ground and have a ruck. No-one gave any options for dummies or support.

I agree priestland isn't great but he made a few darts looking for a supporting runner. There was none. What we then end up with is a slow ball and only a kick option. YAWN!

Instead of going to poland to sit in freezers, I think there needs to be greater emphisis of getting basic ball skills back. Forwards and backs need to intergate more to keep ball continuity going instead of trying to secure ruck ball every time.

We know the players are fit enough and strong enough but they now need to be skillfull enough. Change that and we have devestating players that could do real damage to teams.

who picked the team? who picked the bench.....and left us without a 2nd row? who is responsible for tactics?

whats all this 'no intelligent lines' from maes. 'we are better than this'
'it shouldnt happen' such cliched statements . oh yeah and 'form is temporary class is permanent'

statements that say NOTHING

we all know the in form players however 'temporary' ( ha ) their form should have been picked.

if you are not willing to point at the coach maes , and are saying its the players then team choice is the obvious answer.

at least posters are coming on and saying the team choice of at least 5 players was wrong.

Not the worst performance ever but it did remind me of the draw with Fiji a couple of years ago.

Impossible Standards wrote:Wales are going to struggle against any well organised defence until they re-learn how to run decent support lines and offloading skills. I got bored sat there yesterday watching every back go down to ground and have a ruck. No-one gave any options for dummies or support.

I agree priestland isn't great but he made a few darts looking for a supporting runner. There was none. What we then end up with is a slow ball and only a kick option. YAWN!

Instead of going to poland to sit in freezers, I think there needs to be greater emphisis of getting basic ball skills back. Forwards and backs need to intergate more to keep ball continuity going instead of trying to secure ruck ball every time.

We know the players are fit enough and strong enough but they now need to be skillfull enough. Change that and we have devestating players that could do real damage to teams.

Absolutely right, as were Biltong's comments earlier. In a way, I'm happy with how the match went on Saturday, because it's exposed for the world to see how limited our gameplan is and has been for a while. It works when it's played at pace and with intensity, but even then it's very predictable and not enjoyable to watch.

We look to go to ground. We actively look to go to ground. The ball carrier often had players in support, but they were only there to secure the ball at the ruck we were looking to set up. The concept of offloading in the tackle seems totally alien to the coaching team - and yes, it is the coaches who are culpable here, because players will play to the gameplan they're given. It would help our cause if the players were sharp enough to realise that it wasn't working, but there you go.

The difference between the All Blacks' use of the ball and our use of it a day earlier was striking. Both sides' backlines stood deep, but while the All Blacks took the ball to the line, drew the defender and then passed, we shipped the ball to the wing while still behind the gain line and the Argentinian defence could just drift across to cover the wings. We asked nothing of them. It was disgraceful. And who is Wales' skills / attack coach? Oh, that's right, it's Rob Howley.

RogerLewis wrote:At least we will beat Samoa.

Wales: 9
Pen: Biggar (5, 10)
DG: Biggar (79)

Samoa: 8
Try: Takabakamasapusu (50)
Pen: Pisiwisi (30)

Don't count on it.

Jimpy wrote:

RogerLewis wrote:At least we will beat Samoa.

Wales: 9
Pen: Biggar (5, 10)
DG: Biggar (79)

Samoa: 8
Try: Takabakamasapusu (50)
Pen: Pisiwisi (30)

Don't count on it.

Don't let bluesman here about those drop goals mate, apparently he finds them tedious and boring.

Were you involved with making up the names for the unofficial offical RWC game? Takabaklamasapusu sounds more Fijian than Samoan.