If you were picking a Lions squad based on the first 3 games of the Ais.

First topic message reminder :

NO WALES players would make the squad based on their performance today..

2 places that would be closely contested is 10==15.

At the moment the 10 shirt is between Flood and Sexton.

At the moment the 15 shirt is between Goode, Zebo,Brown(Mike) that is.

Discuss.

Would a combined Wales England team get within 20 points of NZ?

[quote="thebluesmancometh"]

HERSH wrote:Why do these threads turn into how great Wales are compared to the rest of the NH?

Because you are obsessed with us and bring us into every thread.

scientifically presented OMG

Irish

My point was I saw Wales or Argentina winning by within a score, when predicting I always tend to play out 2 scenarios, best and worst case kind thing. I admitted I was wrong but unlike many other poster didn't say what would definately happen, especially as they claim it will definately happen every game!!

but the only team of note that Wales beat in the WC was Ireland. But when you get to the latter stages you have to play the best, sometimes it happens for you, sometimes you get Rolland. Getting there is pretty tough though, ask an Irishman!!

Well I could argue that Wales beat Ireland in the 6 Nations a few years ago by allowing a throw in to a line out that was illegal that then lead to a try. For all I know if Ireland had won that game we might have ended up better in that 6 Nations and went to better things after. But I'm not going to argue that because well, that's the way things go mate. It's the luck of the draw and the only thing that will make Ireland better is by doing it from within, not blaming the ref.

Now let me say something, and I had already started to write this before I saw your post about the ref Bluesman, I read alot on here and post only the odd time, but up until reading this thread I actually had you down as a sound and informative poster. Alas I was obviously wrong. This thread has shown you posting some very silly points with regards to Wales, maybe there are threads where you are doing the same but I have obviously missed them and that is why perhaps I had you down as one of the solid people on here in my mind.

Or maybe I'm just confusing you with someone else

[quote="Irishhoneymonster"]

thebluesmancometh wrote:

HERSH wrote:Why do these threads turn into how great Wales are compared to the rest of the NH?

Because you are obsessed with us and bring us into every thread.

scientifically presented OMG

Irish

My point was I saw Wales or Argentina winning by within a score, when predicting I always tend to play out 2 scenarios, best and worst case kind thing. I admitted I was wrong but unlike many other poster didn't say what would definately happen, especially as they claim it will definately happen every game!!

but the only team of note that Wales beat in the WC was Ireland. But when you get to the latter stages you have to play the best, sometimes it happens for you, sometimes you get Rolland. Getting there is pretty tough though, ask an Irishman!!

Well I could argue that Wales beat Ireland in the 6 Nations a few years ago by allowing a throw in to a line out that was illegal that then lead to a try. For all I know if Ireland had won that game we might have ended up better in that 6 Nations and went to better things after. But I'm not going to argue that because well, that's the way things go mate. It's the luck of the draw and the only thing that will make Ireland better by doing it from within, not blaming the ref.

Now let me say something, and I had already started to write this before I saw your post about the ref Bluesman, I read alot on here and post only the odd time, but up until reading this thread I actually had you down as a sound and informative poster. Alas I was obviously wrong. This thread has shown you posting some very silly points with regards to Wales, maybe there are threads where you are doing the same but I have obviously missed them and that iswhy perhaps I had you down as one of the solid people on here in my mind.

Bluesman is very up and down. Sometimes he makes great informed and mature points. Sometimes he gets sucked into silly childish bickering. But on the whole he's a good nut with a robust personality who is up for a decent debate.

Irish

I think youve summed me up tbh, if someone wants to converse about facts and points etc I'll be as brutally honest as I can, including ripping wales to shreds.

But I do get caught up with people like HERSH, AWOP, EG4E, Gordy, Roger lewis types and engage in the old garbage! I get drawn in way too easily!!

I HATE THE FACT THAT AWOP HAS ME NAILED ON

The rule is if we're arguing wales I can rip them apart but there are certain posters who are just on the wind up constantly.

Childish I know but it's easy to get sucked in

thebluesmancometh wrote:Irish

I think youve summed me up tbh, if someone wants to converse about facts and points etc I'll be as brutally honest as I can, including ripping wales to shreds.

But I do get caught up with people like HERSH, AWOP, EG4E, Gordy, Roger lewis types and engage in the old garbage! I get drawn in way too easily!!

I HATE THE FACT THAT AWOP HAS ME NAILED ON

The rule is if we're arguing wales I can rip them apart but there are certain posters who are just on the wind up constantly.

Childish I know but it's easy to get sucked in

Ok fair enough but why make silly points like 'it's the ref that cost us'? OR 'Wales were the only shining home nations' shining light in the WC' OR 'Wales are the most talented team in the NH'?

Why make those statements when dealing with WUM's? It just makes you seem like one yourself to be honest. But I do understand how you feel after a difficult loss so fair enough , but at same time I feel you should just rise above it and keep a level head

Irishhoneymonster wrote:

thebluesmancometh wrote:Irish

I think youve summed me up tbh, if someone wants to converse about facts and points etc I'll be as brutally honest as I can, including ripping wales to shreds.

But I do get caught up with people like HERSH, AWOP, EG4E, Gordy, Roger lewis types and engage in the old garbage! I get drawn in way too easily!!

I HATE THE FACT THAT AWOP HAS ME NAILED ON

The rule is if we're arguing wales I can rip them apart but there are certain posters who are just on the wind up constantly.

Childish I know but it's easy to get sucked in

Ok fair enough but why make silly points like 'it's the ref that cost us'? OR 'Wales were the only shining home nations' shining light in the WC' OR 'Wales are the most talented team in the NH'?

Why make those statements when dealing with WUM's? It just makes you seem like one yourself to be honest. But I do understand how you feel after a difficult loss so fair enough , but at same time I feel you should just rise above it and keep a level head

It's a process of recovery HoneyMonster, we're all susceptible to have our buttons pushed when in a frustrated mood when we want to have a proper debate about reality and some silly WUMS keep making jibes and pointing out "facts" like the GS champions going down to the RC wooden spooners. We're all just human and sometimes we lash out. So give the guy a break!

Nearly every thread on here is Welsh people bickering with HERSH. It never ends.

HERSH seems to watch an awful lot of rugby, and spend an awful lot of time here to make very few actual serious points. It's like he treats rugby like a game and the forum like a sort of light entertainment....

... go figure.

To be fair Irish those statements are correct, Wales were the best home nations team in the WC by a mile!! Ireland played a decent game v Aus, England were a bit of a laughing stock and scotland failed outright.

Rolland issued a contraversial red card out of the blue for a clumsy challenge and ruined a WC semi final, in which the IRB decided to defend him by issuing every ref to do the same thing for anything of the sort of lift tackle. Remember a few years previous less was issued to a double man spear who nearly broke a players neck on a lions tour. perspective, but I am no ref blamer in general from the semi and final (of which I beleive was the biggest joke the IRB could play on anyone). The WC final was the worst display from a ref I have ever seen, I have never called a ref an intentional cheat but if I was ever close to doing so that performance would be it (please bare in mind I am a ref and defendc the very often on here)

Also I do think Wales are the most talented team in the NH over the last few years, why wouldn't I, grand slams every few seasons, lions tour numbers largest, and even criticised when more numbers shouldve toured. Welsh players are amongst some of the highest paid in France, and the number is rising constantly, welsh players are at a premium.

That is pretty honest IMHO, I'm not saying wales are the best team in the world, or even the 6N regularly but most talent yes, shown over the last few seasons by Wales ability to outperform any other 6N team, maybe not consistantly enough for my liking but more often than not it's a case of when wales play well v NH teams they win.

Please don't take it as a wum, I am more than happy to rip wales apart in plenty of aspects but talent is definately not one of them at present!

RogerLewis wrote:Nearly every thread on here is Welsh people bickering with HERSH. It never ends.

Well I'm sorry for posting my views, yes Wales won the Grand Slam but it doesn't hide the fact that the 2011 RWC wasn't that great for Wales, no matter how much fans talk it up (4 wins out of 7 games), also Wales have failed to push on from last years 6 nations with a poor tour in Aus and now they can't beat Arg at home.

I really thought they had a chance against the All Blacks this year but Gatland has jumped ship for the time being exposeing Howley for what most of us thought anyway. (that he is out of his depth)

I fail to see how that is wumming.

That is partly correct hersh, although I will say Gatland will be involved v NZ!!

Why are you still going on about Wales? You talk 20% about England and 80% about Wales. All the time.

Does Wales having a tiny bit of glory really bother you that much?

Agree Gatland leaving has left a big impact. Not just the Lions absence but his suspicious absence from the Oz tour with his "ladder fall", add that to his admission that he came within a few dollars of leaving altogether for the Chiefs and you have to wonder if the Lions gig wasn't a sort of incentive to lure him back to the north.

I can see him in charge of Australia, possibly switching places with Robbie Deans.

anotherworldofpain wrote:HERSH seems to watch an awful lot of rugby, and spend an awful lot of time here to make very few actual serious points. It's like he treats rugby like a game and the forum like a sort of light entertainment....

... go figure.

Really? I suggest you read a few more articles my friend, don't believe the smear campaign against me if I was merely a wum I would have been banned a long time ago, People don't always like to hear strong views and opinions against their team no matter how right my views are.

Who and when did you play in the Welsh premiership HERSH?

RogerLewis wrote:Who and when did you play in the Welsh premiership HERSH?

We clarified he is Guscott, so never

I can't and won't give that info out I'm afraid.

But I'm not Jerry, I was a PROPer rugby player.

Guscott's mum taught my ex gf art at Speedwell school in Fashions Bristol, same school Justin stalk Collins went to.

HERSH can't be Guscott. Guscott loves Wales.

HERSH wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:HERSH seems to watch an awful lot of rugby, and spend an awful lot of time here to make very few actual serious points. It's like he treats rugby like a game and the forum like a sort of light entertainment....

... go figure.

Really? I suggest you read a few more articles my friend, don't believe the smear campaign against me if I was merely a wum I would have been banned a long time ago, People don't always like to hear strong views and opinions against their team no matter how right my views are.

I would debate that point. But let's face it, there is no point. But I love your work. It's all class.

HERSH wrote:I can't and won't give that info out I'm afraid.

But I'm not Jerry, I was a PROPer rugby player.

How old are you? Surely you can say which team.

Are you Chilcott?!

I'd rather not say.

Imagine if you revealed your identity. It would be like a scene from 28 days later. Thousands of angry Welsh vying for blood.

hahahahahaha

I'd give you a kiss HERSH, wummer you are but at least it's a bit of fun!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:To be fair Irish those statements are correct, Wales were the best home nations team in the WC by a mile!! Ireland played a decent game v Aus, England were a bit of a laughing stock and scotland failed outright.

Rolland issued a contraversial red card out of the blue for a clumsy challenge and ruined a WC semi final, in which the IRB decided to defend him by issuing every ref to do the same thing for anything of the sort of lift tackle. Remember a few years previous less was issued to a double man spear who nearly broke a players neck on a lions tour. perspective, but I am no ref blamer in general from the semi and final (of which I beleive was the biggest joke the IRB could play on anyone). The WC final was the worst display from a ref I have ever seen, I have never called a ref an intentional cheat but if I was ever close to doing so that performance would be it (please bare in mind I am a ref and defendc the very often on here)

Also I do think Wales are the most talented team in the NH over the last few years, why wouldn't I, grand slams every few seasons, lions tour numbers largest, and even criticised when more numbers shouldve toured. Welsh players are amongst some of the highest paid in France, and the number is rising constantly, welsh players are at a premium.

That is pretty honest IMHO, I'm not saying wales are the best team in the world, or even the 6N regularly but most talent yes, shown over the last few seasons by Wales ability to outperform any other 6N team, maybe not consistantly enough for my liking but more often than not it's a case of when wales play well v NH teams they win.

Please don't take it as a wum, I am more than happy to rip wales apart in plenty of aspects but talent is definately not one of them at present!

I'm sorry but to be fair those statements are not correct. I am heading to bed now so may at some point back my statement up with a more developed answer but sorry as far as I am concerned you are looking at things with red tinted glasses.

Of course I am, just as you will have the green tints in your glasses, jeez I'm amazed AWOP can see anything with blacked out fully glasses!!!

I'm sure you'll beleive some of the Irish players are far more talented than most, but thats why the game is great!!!!

But what I think we can both agree on is that both Ireland and Wales are much more talented than England

JOKE

Ryland on the X Factor has more talent than Wales at the moment.

What position does he play Roger? And who for?

Sorry to take so long to reply, I couldn't see where I was going and fell down the stairs earlier and had to patch myself up from a nasty cut I got when my glasses broke. On the plus side, I see things clearly now.

I'm sorry Bluesman but I have to agree with HoneyMonster on this one.

Wales put in the best performance they have managed in a RWC since 1987 and I think that was confused to an extent with believing they had done better than they actually did.

The inability to get a win over Oz must be disappointing from a Welsh perspective and reveals to me (and other objective fans) that they have not made progress and in fact slipped backwards since the 6N grandslam. And let us be 100% honest with ourselves when we assess that though it sounds like an excuse, both England and France were in transition following the RWC and were some way short of their potential and current abilities.

Gatland's absence (now prolonged) has revealed the lack of depth in the coaching set up and Wales seem to be floundering at the moment. The acid test will be the next few weeks and there are stern challenges ahead.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Sorry to take so long to reply, I couldn't see where I was going and fell down the stairs earlier and had to patch myself up from a nasty cut I got when my glasses broke. On the plus side, I see things clearly now.

I'm sorry Bluesman but I have to agree with HoneyMonster on this one.

Wales put in the best performance they have managed in a RWC since 1987 and I think that was confused to an extent with believing they had done better than they actually did.

The inability to get a win over Oz must be disappointing from a Welsh perspective and reveals to me (and other objective fans) that they have not made progress and in fact slipped backwards since the 6N grandslam. And let us be 100% honest with ourselves when we assess that though it sounds like an excuse, both England and France were in transition following the RWC and were some way short of their potential and current abilities.

Gatland's absence (now prolonged) has revealed the lack of depth in the coaching set up and Wales seem to be floundering at the moment. The acid test will be the next few weeks and there are stern challenges ahead.

I actually agree with this. Also Ireland is being so badly coached and we are playing the worst rugby in our professional history and nearly beat Wales. So actually that grand slam win doesn't look all that good when you break it down.
Samoan game is going to be really tough for Wales. Its the game im most looking forward to .

To be honest when you actually look at the results, it was nothing special.

Wales progressed as runner up from an easy group (as expected). The only difference was Wales SHOULD have beaten South Africa. Nobody expected Wales to beat South Africa and everyone predicted Wales to progress as runners up.

The twist was Ireland grinding out a win against Australia. Then Ireland play poor against Wales. Mentally Wales wanted it more.

France played poor against Wales but Wales were not mentally capable of progressing.

MY ASSESSMENT OF WELSH WORLD CUP.

SA: Wales slightly better but Priestland and Hook poor with boot.
Samoa: Wales mediocre and lucky.
Fiji: Easy.
Namibia: No contest

Ireland: Wales played well and wanted it more.

France: Wales played good, scored only try. Squandered countless dropgoals and penalties. Did well to play with 14 men but threw it away.

Australia. Poor

thebluesmancometh wrote:Of course I am, just as you will have the green tints in your glasses, jeez I'm amazed AWOP can see anything with blacked out fully glasses!!!

I'm sure you'll beleive some of the Irish players are far more talented than most, but thats why the game is great!!!!

But what I think we can both agree on is that both Ireland and Wales are much more talented than England

JOKE

Yes. That is why England are above both Wales and Ireland in the IRB world Rankins.

FACT

F A C T

Fecking Welsh

Ars**oles

Can't

Tackle

thebluesmancometh wrote:To be fair Irish those statements are correct, Wales were the best home nations team in the WC by a mile!! Ireland played a decent game v Aus, England were a bit of a laughing stock and scotland failed outright.

Well to be pedantic Ireland actually played pretty well against Italy too but I agree Wales were head and shoulders above the others, albeit got a bit lucky against a good Samoa team.

Wales have had very good players since 2006 but through injury and various other reasons have regularly underperformed bar the Grand slams.

That said their record against the SH is very poor compared to the other home nations and that has to be a factor regarding Lions selection. The domestic performances, the Ospreys and Scarlets apart have been pretty woeful too. The 6N is a jewel in the rugby calendar but its not the be all and end all and outside of this Wales haven't really delivered performances that match the expectation and talent.

The only home Nation on a clear upward trend is England and I expect them, and Wales to make up the bulk of the Lions squad, provided Wales can bounce back from their humbling by the Pumas.

Scotland have some talented players who should make it and hopefully Gatland will take HEC performance into account because the Irish national side is on an accelerating downward spiral to oblivion under Kidney.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Are you Chilcott?!

Those important rankings that determine the pesky grand slams???

Sadly you all kind of prove my point, Wales were dissapointed to lose to france in the world cup semi because they out performed them with a man less for most of the game = the more talented players.

Dissapointing to lose to Oz 3 - 0 in oz. of course when was the last time we won in Oz, but we had the more talented team by far in those 3 games!!!

And the most recent 6N tournament wales beat all hands down, granted they had toughies in Dublin and Wembley (well not so much wembley) but that is still 2 very impressive away wins against what were squads less talented.

Expectation is high in wales because of the wealth of talent the squad has, and the lions tour is expected to be ploughed with plenty of welshmen (again) but those players need to perform now too.

Are wales consistent? NO, great performers? NO, Are they current 6N champions? YES

So - picking the lions team now who would you add to the scots pack to strengthen it? Or do we just take the scots pack in its entirety ?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Those important rankings that determine the pesky grand slams???

Sadly you all kind of prove my point, Wales were dissapointed to lose to france in the world cup semi because they out performed them with a man less for most of the game = the more talented players.

Dissapointing to lose to Oz 3 - 0 in oz. of course when was the last time we won in Oz, but we had the more talented team by far in those 3 games!!!

Can you explain how this bunch of "more talented players" lost 3-0?

That said their record against the SH is very poor compared to the other home nations and that has to be a factor regarding Lions selection.

Rodders

Great point, and one Woodward adhered to in NZ!!!
I would agree though we tend to not travel well as welshmen, but in SA I think certain areas were only kept together by welshmen, Rees and Jones having to rescue the scrum, Roberts and Phillips the 2 best performing backs.
But ultimately I probably agree, taking too many welsh men is a risk because of their poor results down under, but IMHO the starting 15 would probably be made up of a lot of welshmen, and the rest of the squad very few.

Yes AWOP, similar reasons to why the less talented Oz team drew with NZ, performance on the day and the culmination of a hundred differing factors outside of the one issue of talent!!!

It's not rocket science mate, but for you maybe it is

With Gatland in charge and a team full of Welshmen what could possibly go wrong in Aus

No Bluesman I don't think its a risk to take Welshmen, thats not the point.

The point is that a lot of the Welsh guys are not performing for their regions and it looks unlikely we'll see a Welsh side in the HEC QF.

The National side have lost 4 on the trot, albeit to good sides.

Wales are reigning GS champions but the Welsh players can't be taking Lions spots for granted. They need a good few performances now and a strong 6N because they can't expect to get on tour based on reputation.

Generally the rugby the NH is dire right now and the Lions will struggle to win this series no matter who gets picked I think.

What a waste of time reading this thread was.

Trying in vain to get it back on topic, here is ESPN Scrum.com 's Lions Team based on this weekend's performances.

http://www.espnscrum.com/lions-tour-2013/rugby/story/172684.html

15. Alex Goode (England)
Goode repaid Stuart Lancaster's faith with a Man of the Match display against Fiji, having a hand in most of England's best moments. His skills and vision added a new dimension to England's attacking game he now looks a genuine contenders in a hugely competitive position.

14. Charlie Sharples (England)
A host of England players were guilty of butchering try-scoring chances against Fiji, but not Sharples. With his two tries he showed the ruthless finishing Lancaster is demanding and will could retain his place despite Chris Ashton's return from suspension ahead of the game against Australia.

13. Simon Zebo (Ireland)
The Munster winger, who can operate all around the backline, was deployed at fullback for Ireland - a position which gave him more space to show his pace and elusive running. The conditions and opposition meant chances were limited but there was no doubt Zebo was Ireland's most menacing runner and warrants a place in our selection.

12. Manu Tuilagi (England)
Two more tries for the barnstorming Leicester centre, taking his international total to seven in 14 Tests. He finished with great power and pace but still has much to work on having been one of those guilty for failing to make the most of some clear openings.

11. Tim Visser (Scotland)
Two tries for the flying Scotsman against the world champions is no mean feat. To be fair they were quite straightforward finishes - but only if you have the pace of Visser. Greater scrutiny of his all-round game will be required before he can usurp the likes of George North, Chris Ashton and Tommy Bowe.

10. Jonathan Sexton (Ireland)
The fly-half is becoming an ever more influential and authoritative figure in the Ireland team. His kicking at goal in the first half was impressive and he is surely the front-runner for the No.10 shirt at this early stage.

9. Eoin Reddan (Ireland)
Conor Murray has his supporters and his strengths, especially against physical back-rows such as South Africa, but Reddan injected a pace to Ireland's play when he came on as a substitute which will leave Declan Kidney with a dilemma.

1. Ryan Grant (Scotland)
It wasn't an easy afternoon for Scotland with the All Blacks in town but, after a few shaky moments in the first half, their scrum held up pretty well in the face of New Zealand's power. Grant played his part and made a decent impression around the park with ball in hand.

2. Tom Youngs (England)
The Leicester hooker responded to the pressure of his debut and doubts about his throwing with an assured display at the setpiece and telling contribution in the loose. Far sterner tests to come but a fine first showing.

3. Dan Cole (England)
The lasting image of Cole's display against Fiji will no doubt be of the tight-head prop charging into the only Fijian defender left in a particular corner south west London and blowing a huge overlap. But that would be unfair. He pulled off a couple of adeptly executed turnovers and was the cornerstone of a scrum that frequently had Fiji on their knees.

4. Donnacha Ryan (Ireland)
Ryan took over as Ireland's primary source of ball at the lineout. He performed his duties well against South Africa and will surely keep the likes of Donncha O'Callaghan on the sidelines for the forseeable future.

5. Mike McCarthy (Ireland)
McCarthy made an immediate impact on only his fifth international appearance and played a prominent role as Ireland took the game to the Springboks in the opening 40 minutes. He was his side's top tackler from second row and ensured the absences of Paul O'Connell was not felt too acutely.

6. Tom Johnson (England)
It was another strong performance in an England shirt for the Exeter flanker. He carried for 36 metres and also grabbed his first international try in a robust display, which should be enough to keep Tom his positional rivals at bay for now.

7. Chris Robshaw (England)
Remarkable work-rate from the England captain who made a few marauding runs as well as topping England's tackling chart with 15 hits on the Fijians. Throw in some sweet offloads and forceful leadership and it was another strong display for the flanker.

8. Kelly Brown (Scotland)
It was not a great weekend for the main No.8 contenders with Toby Faletau in the Welsh pack that was outmuscled by Argentina, Jamie Heaslip holding his hands up for a crucial mistake during Ireland's defeat and Thomas Waldrom failing to convince against Fiji. But on his 50th appearance and as captain Brown did enough to earn the spot with three turnovers and faultless industry.

Not a single Welshman? Are ESPN Scrum's jounralists WUMing?

My only changes would be Richie Gray for DOC. Gray was outstanding on Sunday and same for Mike Blair over Conor Murray.

HERSH

Once more mate your lack of knowledge is stunning, Gatland wasn't in Oz, he was in hospital, Howley prepped the team, made selection and took them down under, not sure if Gatland managed to join them mid tour but it was clear it was Howleys tour!!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:HERSH

Once more mate your lack of knowledge is stunning, Gatland wasn't in Oz, he was in hospital, Howley prepped the team, made selection and took them down under, not sure if Gatland managed to join them mid tour but it was clear it was Howleys tour!!!

I wasn't talking about the summer tour!

I think the scots who ( on this weekends showing) should be there are Blair, Gray, Denton, Brown

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:What a waste of time reading this thread was.

Trying in vain to get it back on topic, here is ESPN Scrum.com 's Lions Team based on this weekend's performances.

http://www.espnscrum.com/lions-tour-2013/rugby/story/172684.html

15. Alex Goode (England)
Goode repaid Stuart Lancaster's faith with a Man of the Match display against Fiji, having a hand in most of England's best moments. His skills and vision added a new dimension to England's attacking game he now looks a genuine contenders in a hugely competitive position.

14. Charlie Sharples (England)
A host of England players were guilty of butchering try-scoring chances against Fiji, but not Sharples. With his two tries he showed the ruthless finishing Lancaster is demanding and will could retain his place despite Chris Ashton's return from suspension ahead of the game against Australia.

13. Simon Zebo (Ireland)
The Munster winger, who can operate all around the backline, was deployed at fullback for Ireland - a position which gave him more space to show his pace and elusive running. The conditions and opposition meant chances were limited but there was no doubt Zebo was Ireland's most menacing runner and warrants a place in our selection.

12. Manu Tuilagi (England)
Two more tries for the barnstorming Leicester centre, taking his international total to seven in 14 Tests. He finished with great power and pace but still has much to work on having been one of those guilty for failing to make the most of some clear openings.

11. Tim Visser (Scotland)
Two tries for the flying Scotsman against the world champions is no mean feat. To be fair they were quite straightforward finishes - but only if you have the pace of Visser. Greater scrutiny of his all-round game will be required before he can usurp the likes of George North, Chris Ashton and Tommy Bowe.

10. Jonathan Sexton (Ireland)
The fly-half is becoming an ever more influential and authoritative figure in the Ireland team. His kicking at goal in the first half was impressive and he is surely the front-runner for the No.10 shirt at this early stage.

9. Eoin Reddan (Ireland)
Conor Murray has his supporters and his strengths, especially against physical back-rows such as South Africa, but Reddan injected a pace to Ireland's play when he came on as a substitute which will leave Declan Kidney with a dilemma.

1. Ryan Grant (Scotland)
It wasn't an easy afternoon for Scotland with the All Blacks in town but, after a few shaky moments in the first half, their scrum held up pretty well in the face of New Zealand's power. Grant played his part and made a decent impression around the park with ball in hand.

2. Tom Youngs (England)
The Leicester hooker responded to the pressure of his debut and doubts about his throwing with an assured display at the setpiece and telling contribution in the loose. Far sterner tests to come but a fine first showing.

3. Dan Cole (England)
The lasting image of Cole's display against Fiji will no doubt be of the tight-head prop charging into the only Fijian defender left in a particular corner south west London and blowing a huge overlap. But that would be unfair. He pulled off a couple of adeptly executed turnovers and was the cornerstone of a scrum that frequently had Fiji on their knees.

4. Donnacha Ryan (Ireland)
Ryan took over as Ireland's primary source of ball at the lineout. He performed his duties well against South Africa and will surely keep the likes of Donncha O'Callaghan on the sidelines for the forseeable future.

5. Mike McCarthy (Ireland)
McCarthy made an immediate impact on only his fifth international appearance and played a prominent role as Ireland took the game to the Springboks in the opening 40 minutes. He was his side's top tackler from second row and ensured the absences of Paul O'Connell was not felt too acutely.

6. Tom Johnson (England)
It was another strong performance in an England shirt for the Exeter flanker. He carried for 36 metres and also grabbed his first international try in a robust display, which should be enough to keep Tom his positional rivals at bay for now.

7. Chris Robshaw (England)
Remarkable work-rate from the England captain who made a few marauding runs as well as topping England's tackling chart with 15 hits on the Fijians. Throw in some sweet offloads and forceful leadership and it was another strong display for the flanker.

8. Kelly Brown (Scotland)
It was not a great weekend for the main No.8 contenders with Toby Faletau in the Welsh pack that was outmuscled by Argentina, Jamie Heaslip holding his hands up for a crucial mistake during Ireland's defeat and Thomas Waldrom failing to convince against Fiji. But on his 50th appearance and as captain Brown did enough to earn the spot with three turnovers and faultless industry.

Not a single Welshman? Are ESPN Scrum's jounralists WUMing?

My only changes would be Richie Gray for DOC. Gray was outstanding on Sunday and same for Mike Blair over Conor Murray.

I like the look of that team.

Apart from Healy, Bowe, Henry and McCarthy there weren't many Irish players who helped their cause.

Not sure what game ESPN were watching.....