Dan Carter - the finest flyhalf of all time

First topic message reminder :

Sure it was only against Scotland, but DC has proven once again why he is the greatest #10 in the history of history. Barry John was majestic. Foxy was the controller. JonnyW was the dropgoal specialist. Beaver was the RWC penalty goal kicker. But none of them in the class of Carter.

Agree? Disagree?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vF-cCqlAAhk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqKkG8ZZ2YU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kTrGLhheYA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLQSc1sp4dE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYKthRmMjKo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJHhHxeYVvI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4S-cAXCtw4&feature=related

There are probably players who can do the odd thing better than him. He's just operates at such a consistently high level across his whole game, for such an extended period of time. It's hard to think of anyone who has been so influential at FH for so long.

The funny thing was in that final Donald was the best guy we could have had in Carter's place. We cringe when he has the ball but in defence he is a big physical bloke who is a great asset. We didn't have much ball so he didn't get the chance to stuff things up-instead the 10 channel was strengthened and the French forwards didn't get as much purchase there as they would have liked.

To me hes the best, cant think of anyone else in the pro era who was/is as consistent as he is.

Carter has vision, pace, defence, awareness and makes the right decisions. While there might have been "better" flyhalves in the past, I think nostalgia gets in the way of some comparisons, also baring in mind that professional rugby these days is almost an alien game to the amateur days in terms of physicality.

I vote for Hugo Porta, many of you are too young to remember, so I add a little article about it.

Player Profile

Country: Argentina
H.O.F. Inductee: 1997
Position: Fly Half
Date of Birth: 11/09/1951
Place of Birth: Buenos Aires

Career Summary

Hugo Porta could be a statistician’s delight. Any fly-half who played international rugby for nearly 20 years, who dropped goals as if they were going out of fashion, and who amassed well over 500 test points, including 66 for South America, would be bound to attract the attention of the men with figures. But Hugo Porta was a lot more than a points’ machine.

Mervyn Davies, arguably the very best of all the No 8’s of the early 1970s, was not a man given to scattering compliments like confetti. In 1977 he put Hugo Porta in his imaginary World XV to oppose Wales. He selected him because even from set-pieces he possessed the ability to make clean breaks... he revealed considerable tactical awareness; and he proved himself a fine kicker of the ball, with an eagle eye for a dropped goal opportunity. Hugo was in fact part of a real-life Argentinian XV that came within seconds of beating a grand slam Welsh team at Cardiff Arms Park in 1976. At the time, Argentina was still regarded as an emerging nation in rugby terms, but he, at least, became attuned to big games on a world stage.

As South Africa sought to counteract its sporting isolation it invited South America to tour there. Hugo Porta captained the Jaguars on three such tours between 1980 and 1984. In 1982 they even won a test match - he scored all 21 points in their victory at Bloemfontein. He also led them in two home tests against the Springboks in 1980. South Africans saw enough of Hugo to describe him as the master of the fly-half’s art.

Hugo Porta’s first allegiance remained, understandably, to the Pumas of Argentina. Though there were many struggles and dark days, there were performances that more illustrious teams would be proud of. An 18-all draw with France in 1977 (Porta 18 points), then victory over the same opponents in 1984 and 1986, wins both home and away against Australia, and, perhaps most noteworthy of all, a 21-all draw (Porta’s 21 points including 3 dropped goals) against New Zealand in 1985. By then, Hugo Porta was in every sense a world class player.

Greatest Moment

Having captained Argentina in the first World Cup in 1987 at the age of 36, Hugo returned to Britain for his final tour in 1990. At the age of 39 and in a struggling team he played on merit in all three tests against players half his age.

Interesting Facts

In 1991 he was appointed Argentine Ambassador to South Africa by President Carlos Menem, and in 1994 became Argentina's Minister for Sport.

Career Status

1971-1990

Test Caps: 42
Test Points: 408
Test tries: 3
Penalties: 85
Conversions:36
Drop Goals: 23

Porta was good for sure - but the allround game of carter? Dunno about that

I remember Porta very well and would place him, as an all rounder, second to Carter. What made him special is that he often had to carry the side on his own, and often did.

He toured here in the 70's and in one match against Bay of Plenty dropped four goals. He did it all. Ran, tackled, kicked goals and was a droppie extraordinaire. Counties match I believe he was defending a kick into his corner and both players jumped for it and he headed it into touch in true Mario Kempes style, his football equivalent at the time, so he could do that as well.

Until Carter I hadn't seen a 10 with the same balance of all round skills as Porta. Pity so few got to see him on the world stage.

Did he play in 89 Taylorman? I saw Argentina three times that year and am reasonably sure he played. Could be wrong though.

disneychilly wrote:Did he play in 89 Taylorman? I saw Argentina three times that year and am reasonably sure he played. Could be wrong though.

Yes, he retired at 90.

I only vaguely recall watching him play the ABs in the mid 80s. I was only a little kid so all I have stored in the memory banks is grainy TV images of Porta kicking a heap of points in Argentina, boy he was a great kicker and overall legend.

Cant recall him in 89- I thought 87 was his swansong.

Its the 1979 tour to NZ I was referring to when Porta was at his very best.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_Argentina_rugby_union_tour_of_New_Zealand

After playing Mouries 'Juniors' in 76 where I think they drew one he captained and as far as I was concerned single handedly carried the side through NZ beating all but counties and the two NZxvs. Since that tour I still hadnt seen as complete an all round 10 until Carter.

There are so many players it is impossible to compare most 10`s had strengths and weaknesses.Wilkinson was the best tackler of his era,a considrable goalkicker.BUT Andrew Merthens was THE worlds best all round ,defence to the extent of Wilkinson was`nt usually shown.
It is fair to say Dan Carter has the most complete all round game of recent contenders.His Drop Goal skills aside.
Surprised no one mentioned Mike Gibson,he was superior at 10 to either John or Bennett.

Not sure that Dan Carter is the finest flyhalf of all-time as the game has changed a lot since it first began in the dark ages. From the players that I have seen in the last 20 or so years, Carter, Wilkinson, Mehrtens, Larkham, Jonathan Davies, Naas Botha and Grant Fox are the best flyhalves I have ever seen.

I think the term all round is being stressed here.
Carter isnt the best 10 in any of these categories alone (and to suggest a better one)
- defence (Wilkinson)
- ball in hand (Q Cooper, J Davies, Larkham, Ella, Bennett)
- Goal kicking (pick one of many)
- Drop goals (Porta, Steyn,Wilkinson, Lascaboura (sorry couldnt help that one)
- Strategy and option taking (well for this it probably is Carter)

I know there are others and youd need a thesis to cover this topic, but all those named werent great at all those factors whereas Carter and Porta (and possibly Merts..defence?) would sit just below everyone on the list.

Fox and wilko couldnt run to save themselves, Cooper though brilliant at times suffers everywhere else. Carter has and blends all the factors into the complete 10 and is probably the most intelligent and instinctive of them all.

Porta was the same and had he been in a side that was comparable with the top few, would have been much more heralded here.

For Ball in Hand skill, Barry John surely has to be the best ever at doing this. His 1969 try V England where he easily ghosted past 4 or 5 England players leaving them clutching at thin air was his best and one of the best individual tries ever in the history of the Five Nations Championship.

For Goal Kick and Drop Goal Skills, Naas Botha surely has to be considered as in his prime throughout the 1980's he could kick goal after goal at long range for his provincial team Northern Transvaal and for the Springbok team in the rebel test matches. Also Naas Botha was a true master in the art of touchline punting/kicking as he had the ability to kick the ball miles on his home ground of Loftus Versveld. Perhaps this touchline kicking is the one area in which Dan Carter is weak in if there is a weakness in his rugby.

Well the ball travels further in the high veld so that may well be the answer. Carter has a big enough punt and a place kick. I remember him getting a kick over the 50 m mark there.

What you might have to consider is that the ABs often prefer to keep the ball in play rather than find touch. Botha would find touch for his huge lineout forwards. Carter wants the ball in play more often than not.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

IronMike wrote:NZ dont play half as well when Carter isnt playing, look at their performances with Donald

You mean the one in 2011 when Donald kicked the winning points in the final.

I think Cruden and Barrett are worthy replacements. Cruden was playing better footy earlier this year. But good to see Carter playing freely and injury free. Long may it continue.

Not sure about Barrett but was really impressed with how much Cruden has improved. His offloading game seemed to add a further string to the ABs bow as I think it may even be better than Carter's. That said, Carter's athleticism is something I think that gets over looked. His hand-off is excellent and a reason for a lot of his breaks. Not sure Cruden is quite physically there yet, plenty of time.

Taylorman wrote:I think the term all round is being stressed here.
Carter isnt the best 10 in any of these categories alone (and to suggest a better one)
- defence (Wilkinson)
- ball in hand (Q Cooper, J Davies, Larkham, Ella, Bennett)
- Goal kicking (pick one of many)
- Drop goals (Porta, Steyn,Wilkinson, Lascaboura (sorry couldnt help that one)
- Strategy and option taking (well for this it probably is Carter)

I know there are others and youd need a thesis to cover this topic, but all those named werent great at all those factors whereas Carter and Porta (and possibly Merts..defence?) would sit just below everyone on the list.

Fox and wilko couldnt run to save themselves, Cooper though brilliant at times suffers everywhere else. Carter has and blends all the factors into the complete 10 and is probably the most intelligent and instinctive of them all.

Porta was the same and had he been in a side that was comparable with the top few, would have been much more heralded here.

It's a good point. When I think of Carter I instinctively think 'He's the best ever, and he's the best at everything'. But in reality, in specialist areas he's below a fair few others. As a complete package, he's without rival.

Only thing I'd pull you up on is Wilkinson was never a great runner, but he wasn't THAT bad either. Admittedly, he hasn't run since 2002/03, but he had a passable shuffle on him in those days!

Watch the game against Scotland last week where he slotted into fullback and did no wrong and the 3rd test against Ireland where he looked assured and full of confidence for such a young man. Early days yet and needs to be tested in a big game but you just know somebody has the goods when you see his body language and option taking.

I really think Barrett is a great long term prospect. Will be interesting to see Cruden's performance today. I agree his strength is his offloading and the opportunities he creates for others around him.

I voted yes. Although I think polls like this always favour the more recent candidates, and to be fair im not old enough to have seen some of the past greats live.
What I do know, is that it is a great excuse for a discussion and videos(thanks for them, 1st one was ) of a truly wonderful player.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Watch the game against Scotland last week where he slotted into fullback and did no wrong and the 3rd test against Ireland where he looked assured and full of confidence for such a young man. Early days yet and needs to be tested in a big game but you just know somebody has the goods when you see his body language and option taking.

I really think Barrett is a great long term prospect. Will be interesting to see Cruden's performance today. I agree his strength is his offloading and the opportunities he creates for others around him.

Cool, i'll take a closer look at him.

He's playing again at fullback today for the injured Dagg. But he is a big reason for the improved fortunes of the Hurricanes as well. So far he hasn't put a foot wrong and though it's early days, you sometimes get a sense that a player belongs at the highest level.

Yeah I agree with Barrett. For his first matches for the Canes and the ABs showed such a confidence in taking the ball to the line and makes it look so effortless. One of those who can just cruise into a gap without anyone expecting it until hes off.