Is Offside called "Good Line Speed" now?

Take a look for example, at the first Scottish try today. If you have the game recorded, freeze the picture as Piri Weepu is clearing the ball from the ruck. There are 4 Scottish defenders who have never retired to on-side positions. Not even close. It's just blatant. Of course Dan Carter should never have thrown the intercept pass, but he could be forgiven for not seeing the Scottish interceptor "approaching"...he didn't so much approach as stand stationary in the All Black back line from the preceeding ruck. What was Chris Cuisiter's comment from the sideline? "Great Line Speed, leading to an intercept try."

On the subject of referees selective vision, I also have to comment that on 26 minutes Victor Vito throws an inside pass to a supporting All Black, and it is BLATANTLY slapped down and forward by a Scotts defender. Yellow Card? No, bizarrely it was a lineout. 36 minutes gone, and it happens again on the other wing...this time "advantage knock on". Now who recalls a yellow card for Ireland for a vastly less obvious attempt a few months ago? Where's the consistency? Both the linesman and referee were both staring straight at it. What's going on? I saw it from the opposite side of the ground half way up the stands...Now in a game where you expect one side to put 50 points on this is just an irrelevance but in a closer game these simple obvious but missed calls become important. Must do better!

Now on another note, Scotland's ruck defence consistent of 45 minutes of diving off their feet trying to grab at the ball on the ground. The match officials couldn't spot this either, but when NZ finally took it into their own hands and Thompson rucked a prone Scotsman out of the way, the linesman apparently had lazer vision and a yellow card was issued. It's simple guys, penalise the illegal play first and then this stuff doesn't need to happen.

This whole issue of cynical negative cheating in defense kills the game as a spectacle. I didn't want to mention it because they're hurting enough already, but Wales again in yesteday's game against Argentina spent 40 minutes half a meter off side as a starting point. Why? why? why can't the referees spot this and do something about it?

I was wondering how long it'd take you to come out and have a winge.

yappysnap wrote:I was wondering how long it'd take you to come out and have a winge.

It's not "whinging" it's "searching for improvement", yappy.

yappysnap wrote:I was wondering how long it'd take you to come out and have a winge.

Plus one.

AWOP, a bit of advice. Have some courteousy for the rest of us on this board. Create an article titled the 'AWOP whinge thread' and ask the mods to sticky it. That way you can keep the inevitable weeks and months of moaning under one roof. I get the feeling you'll be having a discussion with yourself in that one .

So what you are saying is you can't debate ANY of the points I make, so you just prefer to have a go at me personally instead?

Any comment to make? Want to claim the Scotts backline WASN'T offside? or that the deliberate knock downs DIDN'T take place?

Is Offside called "Good Line Speed" now?

Kiwi commentators have been calling it thus for 30 years and more.

Carp like this article sadly take the gloss of what was an enjoyable game.

Again, care to debate THE POINTS I MAKE? Rather than just attempting to dismiss it entirely with a personal attack?

anotherworldofpain wrote:So what you are saying is you can't debate ANY of the points I make, so you just prefer to have a go at me personally instead?

Any comment to make? Want to claim the Scotts backline WASN'T offside? or that the deliberate knock downs DIDN'T take place?

No I'm saying all you do is whinge and blame the ref everytime somebody scores past New Zealand. Go and keep it in one article for the rest of our sakes and title it AWOP whinge thread so the rest of us know to avoid it. Simple.

Neither Scotland or Wales were offside. The All Blacks spent 80 minutes offside.

Now you are just being silly Morganwwg.

Would you like perhaps, instead of making yourself look so foolish and obvious bitter, you might like to PLEASE and KINDLY just take a look at the plays I've highlighted and comment on them in a mature and grown up way? Or perhaps ignore the thread if you prefer not to talk about it...

New Zealand were very good, but did as much or more shady stuff that was not picked up.

If McCaw had his head stamped on after falling over the ball for the nth time you would have screamed about it. Instead it was a player in black who stamped on someones head.

Oh and the ref missed a possible deliberate knock on which was only obvious when slowed down and replayed from a completely different angle from that he was standing in. Boo hoo.

Why should we comment on your selective choice that are completely unrepresentative of the match and half the time are innaccurate anyway?

anotherworldofpain wrote:Again, care to debate THE POINTS I MAKE? Rather than just attempting to dismiss it entirely with a personal attack?

Interesting topic for discussion.

anotherworldofpain wrote:Now you are just being silly Morganwwg.

Would you like perhaps, instead of making yourself look so foolish and obvious bitter, you might like to PLEASE and KINDLY just take a look at the plays I've highlighted and comment on them in a mature and grown up way? Or perhaps ignore the thread if you prefer not to talk about it...

OH EM GEE the irony !

Don't worry I'll ignore this waste of a thread. I feel I've made my point .

Yep.

As I thought - no sensible answer. I'll take it as a "Yes, you are right AWOP".

Oh and LT once again you are 100% correct.

Morgannwg wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:Now you are just being silly Morganwwg.

Would you like perhaps, instead of making yourself look so foolish and obvious bitter, you might like to PLEASE and KINDLY just take a look at the plays I've highlighted and comment on them in a mature and grown up way? Or perhaps ignore the thread if you prefer not to talk about it...

OH EM GEE the irony !

Don't worry I'll ignore this waste of a thread. I feel I've made my point .

Erm, your point seems to be that you can't debate seriously any of the points I've raised. Fair enough. I'll take your rather feeble reposte as an admission that you have well and truely lost the argument on merit.

Players being offside is a blight on the game. I noticed it happening throughout all the games involving various teams. Not just the SH ones, but a couple of the Nothern teams were a bit borderline at times.

Probably the best solution is to add another 5m to the offside line so players can't encroach so easily.

Turns out it's not just the Eng who like to winge, AWOP doing it for the....

Thanks for a sensible response Pot Hale.

It seems that it creeps in during the international season, perhaps there is more pressure on referees to "keep the game flowing".

My other pet peeve is how many times you see players ahead of the kicker during restarts, it's like crooked scrum feeds in that it will be pinged once per game rarely, but 99% of the time the perpetrators get away with it.

Actually, there is another thing that is happening more and more. Players getting ahead of kickers at re-starts. Not sure if anyone has noticed this. The refs have come down harder on players not retreating, but there were a few times when teams were rushing up and the TJ was not picking it up. I suspect the Pietersen incident yesterday had its genesis in this.

Then there is the illegal shoulder charge which some teams like to pass off as "just hard tackling". This trend begun by the PI teams has now spread to other players who are being deliberately coached to tackle in this manner.

This along with the head high tackle are becoming much more prevalent.

And whomever reported this thread to the moderators...grow up. I'm making valid points that are backed by evidence. Anyone can view the replays and verify that what I am saying is correct.

The odd few inches of an imaginary line set by 1 man and attempted to be adhered to by 30 guys itching to hit the guy in front of him is much less of a worry than say support lines in front of the ball carrier amongst the defencive line, or bodies that 'accidentally' fall on the wrong side of each ruck 100% of the time!!!

I'm not talking about inches Bluesman, I'm talking about the four Scottish defenders who never bothered to retreat at all who then perpetrated an interception by virtue of their off side position.

If you have the game recorded I emplore you to take a look at the incident, it's pretty clear cut. No way should the two linesmen AND referee have managed to miss it...

Or in the process of retreating the game moves from the ruck making the offside line non existant and the ref and linesman didn't quite pick up on it and had moved on to open play mentally. I know I am guilty of doing so every now and then, not sure if you know mate but there are about a hundred things to consider at every phase of play, and every ref makes the odd mistake.

Being offside is not a problem in this day and age of any proportions, in fact it was targetted at the last world cup and has been over penalised at many times. I don't have the game recorded and didn't see the offside decision but trut me when i say it, and I have a thousand times, NZ get away with far more than most other teams so one decision against them in a game isn't worth moaning about.

If we're talking trends lets look at the SH crroked feed, the strangle tackle techniue, obstructing support lines and most importantly players finding themselves on the wrong side of the ruck at every opportunity, IMHO this is tantamount to diving in football and decides games!!!

Mate, "being offside is not a problem in this day and age" ??

Interesting perspective... would you care to comment on that? To me, keeping the players on-side is what keeps the structure of the game together...

Just like Richie McCaw who ripped the ball away legitimately and got pinged for it, I think posters have jumped on the bandwagon here a bit. Offside is a problem in the game and a legitimate question. Rolland, for all his reputation of being a stickler for the rules, seems incapable of keeping the offside line and he used to be a halfback. He seems more intent on proving he's a master of the front row rather than looking at things he should have more experience with.

When a ref keeps a proper offside line throughout the game, it's obvious how the game flows better. There's nothing wrong with pointing that out. Attack the argument not the man.

I will comment. Refs were told at the last world cup to focus on the offside rule and impliment imaginary rules to determine who was offside. Coaches then implimented differing defencive stances where the guards at 1 and 2 would be on the edge of the law and as you got wider the players took less risk and stayed deeper. This is still clearly evident today as wingers are regularly 2/3 metres + behind the line (which is imaginary and 1 of 2 men have to decide with no quantification at all to aid them!!

I have never seen a game where persistent offside were prevelant enough to determine the outcome without being penalised.

It is also common knowledge that when teams scout the ref they look at his trends at key areas, of which does not include the offside line.

And before you attempt to move the goalposts as you love doing we are not talking offside in general, we are talking the offside line created by a ruck/maul and the backline / wider players.

Argument is over quite clearly so lets see how you go about changing your argument...

GO

With regards to the Scotland centre being offside for the intercept. I remember looking for it in the replay during the game and seeing that he retreated so that he was in line with the rest of the Scottish defenders before coming out again. So he did retreat but I have to admit I would have to look at it again to see if the majority of the Scottish defensive line (that the centre got back in line with) were offside. Do you know what minute it was on BBC iplayer AWOP so I can take a look?

Irishhoneymonster wrote:With regards to the Scotland centre being offside for the intercept. I remember looking for it in the replay during the game and seeing that he retreated so that he was in line with the rest of the Scottish defenders before coming out again. So he did retreat but I have to admit I would have to look at it again to see if the majority of the Scottish defensive line (that the centre got back in line with) were offside. Do you know what minute it was on BBC iplayer AWOP so I can take a look?

The guy who actually made the intercept WAS onside, I have no problem with that. However, there were four others (including Visser) who never retreated. These guys shut down the options for the AB attackers and effectively shut the play down. The better option was to chip over them, as NZ did twice later in the game to good effect, but you can't blame a team for making mistakes when the opposition are allowed to act illegally. I don't have the exact minute, but it was around 15 minutes from memory. It shouldn't be hard to find because it was a highlight leading to a try obviously. The key moment is just as Weepu clears the ball, you can see the four Scots defenders (including the wing, debunking Bluesmans point...) who don't retreat adequately, most noticeably Visser. (again, the winger, debuking Bluesman's point).

Visser was never onside, so should have been pinged as soon as he took the pass. Of course the play should have been entirely under advantge from the moment Weepu passed the ball.

So Visser was offside twice... how dare he against your beloved all blacks, oh wait are you a kiwi this week?

But I stray off point, you clearly havn't responded to the points I made regarding the regulations sent to refs to be harsh on the offside/linespeed at the last world cup, you have merely moved onto a differing point.

GO

No mate, I'm stil talking about the Scottish offsides from the ruck, it seems to be you who is "moving on" the point by talking about last years world cup.

The laws are the laws and they should be applied by referees consistently.

I also made a point about the inconsistency in pinging the "deliberate knock on". If I was going to "move on the point" I'd talk about that...but I think it would still be under the remit of the OP.

AWOP are you for real? On another thread you've just stated Visser should be a Lion on current form yet he only scored his two tries because he was offside for 80 minutes according to you! Jeez there are some stupid people around . And who gives a spot to someone for scoring two of those tries he scored btw? One was from an intercept by another player. The other was because the ball was kicked out 5 metres from the All Black try line allowing Laidlaw to pass him the ball and fall over the line. That's just ridiculous saying someone should start for the Lions basing it on that, particulary when he's offside for 80 mintues aswell right?

It may not be relavent but was watching highlights of the England game ,and it seemed that.Almost every England try was scored under advantage for offside play by Fiji.
Lets be honest the offside laws in the kick chase and the so called "Blitz Defence" does`nt really function if the offside laws are strictly policed.Surely the Assistant Refs. are in the best place to call it but seldom do.

Morgannwg wrote: AWOP are you for real? On another thread you've just stated Visser should be a Lion on current form yet he only scored his two tries because he was offside for 80 minutes according to you! Jeez there are some stupid people around . And who gives a spot to someone for scoring two of those tries he scored btw? One was from an intercept by another player. The other was because the ball was kicked out 5 metres from the All Black try line allowing Laidlaw to pass him the ball and fall over the line. That's just ridiculous saying someone should start for the Lions basing it on that, particulary when he's offside for 80 mintues aswell right?

I didn't say he was offside for 80 minutes. I said he was offside once. Please keep the argument sensible and based on facts.

As Alan has just mentioned, England got a fair rattle of the offside stick, so it should be the same law applied to all consistently.

I'm sure I remember seeing Visser retreat to an onside position too, will have to check that but unfortunately the Rugby isn't available on iplayer yet. Will have a look later or tomorrow or the next day

He retreats a little bit, but not to an on-side position. There are more blatantly offside players in the same ruck.

Thats better regurgitate non sensical phrases you hear 'laws are laws' and should be 'applied consistently'

Jeez your useless at this, you state offside has become too prevelant and that refs are missing it and it's become called 'good line speed' yet you ignore how in the last 12 months it was attacked by the IRB and clamped down on non sensically when there are so many other areas in the game struggling to be reffed consistently, scrum, breakdown etc!!!

MAKE SENSE MUN!!!

Stop the same old whinging about your beloved all blacks, and just enjoy a win where you were given AS many decisions if not more (most breakdowns and scrum infringements let go)

thebluesmancometh wrote:Thats better regurgitate non sensical phrases you hear 'laws are laws' and should be 'applied consistently'

Jeez your useless at this, you state offside has become too prevelant and that refs are missing it and it's become called 'good line speed' yet you ignore how in the last 12 months it was attacked by the IRB and clamped down on non sensically when there are so many other areas in the game struggling to be reffed consistently, scrum, breakdown etc!!!

MAKE SENSE MUN!!!

Stop the same old whinging about your beloved all blacks, and just enjoy a win where you were given AS many decisions if not more (most breakdowns and scrum infringements let go)

If they've "clamped down on it" then they've done a bad job if this kind of thing can still happen, surely? An obvious point.

I do like the new crouch-touch-set call though, the scrum seems to be working better. Now if they could just consistently ping crooked feeds, and flankers unbinding too early the scrum would be sorted...

If they can sort out the scrum, perhaps they could sort out this offside debacle too.

And you tend to forget the job refs have to do is very difficult, I'd attribute a ref and linesman missing a decision to oh lets say a knock on? a missed lineout? or maybe even a kick dead? would you say your beloved all blacks or the reffing team made more mistakes today?

I don't doubt it's difficult. But difficulty is no excuse for failure.

Heart surgery is difficult too, as is landing a robot on Mars. If we can manage that, surely we can spot players offside in a rugby match.

THERE IS NO OFFSIDE DEBACLE!! Not where your thinking anyway, your just having a whinge!!

And a fully fledged international all black wouldn't...

- kick dead from inside his own 22 when passed from outside?

- stamp on the back of someones head.

- drop the ball under no pressure.

But hey ho they did, it is certainly not heart surgery or getting a robot to mars is it???

You need to open your eyes and think without you kiwi shirt on!!!

I thought you said NOT to move the argument on to a different topic.

I'm still talking about off-side here. It's you who have moved on...does that mean you've lost the argument? By your logic it does.

AWOP be careful what you wish for ... If referees were perfect the net result would be the ABs would be worse off given the amount they get away with now compared to most - how about that crooked line-out leading to one of their tries today?

Heaf wrote:AWOP be careful what you wish for ... If referees were perfect the net result would be the ABs would be worse off given the amount they get away with now compared to most - how about that crooked line-out leading to one of their tries today?

Not many facts backing up your argument Heaf. I'm not sure NZ get the rub of the green more often than the opposition does.

I saw a lot of crooked line outs go unnoticed today, along with crooked scrum feeds. I just chose to talk about the off-side because it was not something consistently applied to both teams.

I just chose to talk about the off-side because it was not something consistently applied to both teams.

Ye that old game changer the retreating player not quite getting back before the next phase, it ruins so many games week in week out

I'm willing to bet more yellow cards have been given out for retreating players than drag downs at the lineout, dangerous scrum play or even maul drag downs!!!

It does ruin games bluesman. Players up off side shut down the attacking moves of the opposition by giving them an unfair advantage and leads to aerial ping pong and the kind of dire pointless lateral ball shuffling nonsense you'd see from Wales.

We'd have to go back over a lot of matches to provide 'facts' about what the ABs get away with compared to others and even then I'm guessing we'd still be arguing a lot about the interpretations. I know it's not objective but I bet if we ran a poll of which team people think get away with most the ABs would top it by some distance - doesn't mean it would be right of course but I bet I'm not the only one who believes this.

Come now Heaf, it's the AIs and NZ are #1 and RWC champions, of course 99% of people think they are "cheats", not to mention that cheating cheat of a cheater, Richie McCheat, right? And then there's that cheating Haka cheat and the cheating way that NZ always seem to score more points than their opponents.

AWOP mate you are wrong, I know it you know it, your flogging a dead horse. I will worry about a hundred other things as a coach, and ref before the supposed problem that is the yard offside occasionally.

PS the kiwis are masters of faking the retreat till played onside again, whats the difference?!