Buildup: Scotland vs South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Based on Today.s performance who would you pick to play South Africa.
I'd go for:
15. Hogg
14. Evans
13. Dunbar
12. scott
11. Visser
10. Jackson
9. Blair
8. Denton
7. Rennie (Barclay if he's not fit)
6. Brown
5. Hamilton
4. Gray
3. Murray
2. Ford
1. Grant

It was Jane, he went past at a rate of knots, but when you get caught out of position and miss tackles like he also did you have to work on other attributes. I'd say at present Norths defence keeps him a touch ahead of Visser.

I was so disappointed Visser went off injured in the Rabo head to head between them. Last year Visser took North apart. I was looking forwad to the matchup but it ended up a damp squib.

Visser is one of the fastest out there

I am so bored of hearing this players going head to head with this player blah blah blah, it never works like that, and if two wingers get the chance to go one on one with each other one teams defence system has failed!!!

Visser is quick, agile and strong, but he doesn't apply those attributes going both ways, ball in hand his chest is out, when facing a carrier he is much weaker, and until he works on that side will be a step behind North.

IMHO North is the strongest wing candidate for the lions followed by Bowe, Cuthbert, Visser and Ashton.

It would have been nice to get a comparison this year tho. Two similar players. Visser clearly outplayed him last year in attack and defense but this year I would expect it to be closer.

11 marks 14 do they not?

No they do not, youv'e shown a huge lack of knowledge for the game.

Defencive systems at professional level work in 3's and if a player is isolated to be marking 1 on 1 the whole system has failed.

Even in the closest thing to a 1 on 1 in the game the scrum, there are way too many variables from lock options, coaching, form, and situations on the pitch to ever give an accurate prediction of a 1 on 1, until they get on the training pitch and actually work on 1 on 1 situations you will never know, but even then the variables are too large.

Thats why I said IMO North is the front runner, but that is also based on the Lions coach being his national coach and calling him the best winger on the planet recently!!!

Really? so why do all coaches and commentators call for the winger to stay out and mark the winger? not to come inside and take the outside centre? Visser was criticised for exactly this in the NZ game - giving the outside man too much room.

Anyway - irrelevant to the topic.

No they do not, youv'e shown a huge lack of knowledge for the game.

How's the view from that high horse of yours?

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Even in the closest thing to a 1 on 1 in the game the scrum,

I thought the scrum was 8 vs 8

No wonder I never made it to international level!

thebluesmancometh wrote:No they do not, youv'e shown a huge lack of knowledge for the game.

Bit harsh there - yes defensive systems are such that it shouldn't rely on 1 on 1 tackling, but a left winger is likely to come up against the opposite right winger quite often in a game.

Case in point Visser V Bowe a couple of seasons ago - Visser stood him up and ghosted outside him. Left V right winger

Other example - Visser defending too narrow and letting Savea ghost past him - winger on winger.

Thank you RDW.

Anyway back to the point. Whats the scots best tactics / team for winning the game?

Back row will be key as ever. Can we play Brown, Barclay and Denton?

Is the ultimate plan not to get your winger one on one with his defender?

That is how Pieter Hendriks sailed past Campese in the RWC 1995.

It is always said a winger should beat his man one on one.

Obviously much easier when it is a prop in front of you, but it doesn't happen all that often these days as teams very seldom manage to creat the overlap.

Agreed - move on.

I've come round to playing Barclay - he always gives his all and puts his body on the line, perfect for this kind of game.

I also think he's got to start Denton - without him the back row is too defensive and lacks a big ball carrier.

However it is complicated by the fact that Strokosh hasn't really done anything wrong, and is a favourite of Robinson.

I think a back row of

Brown
Rennie/Barclay
Denton

Is by far the best for Scotland, and so with Rennie injured bring Barclay in.

Got a feeling he won't do that though.

And would you play Murray at prop? For me if he won't play some games he don't get to play any

As I said earlier having watched the game again Cross actually had a pretty poor game, and will get destroyed in the scrums against the beasts of SA.

Saying that, has Murray played much recently? He's kind of in between clubs just now, when was his last game? Anyone know?

Slightly off topic, but 54000 tickets sold already - 20000 more than the last time we played them.

http://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby/top-rugby-stories/rugby-bumper-crowd-is-expected-for-next-murrayfield-clash-1-2630532

Good stuff!

RDW_Scotland wrote:As I said earlier having watched the game again Cross actually had a pretty poor game, and will get destroyed in the scrums against the beasts of SA.

Saying that, has Murray played much recently? He's kind of in between clubs just now, when was his last game? Anyone know?

Not so sure our scrum will be that strong RDW, Beast is out and it sounds like Jannie may be out as well.

I'd still think SA's 3rd choice props will be pretty decent, especially compared to Geoff Cross Biltong??

I thought the scottish scrum did rather decent against the all Blacks RDW. Not sure why you worry about it .

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Right, everybody stop - what is this playing blindsides at openside nonsense?!?! It was forced on us on Sunday cos of the bench selection, but to start a match lop-sided like that? Come on tae grips!!

You're right, but I think Strockosh deserves his place in the backrow more than Barclay, which is why I have put him out of position. But Barclay in for Strockosh wouldn't be a bad thing. Tough one really, Strockosh and Denton had a great game, Brown was good too but had a few slip ups, yet he's the captain so he can't be benched. Do we really need a specialist 7? How much more of an impact will Barclay make at openside compared to Strockosh?

Overall a performance most of us wanted and didnt. We actually scored tries but our lack of awareness and defence frailities was damn worrying, We showed vision which on a better day might have come off i.e. the two NZ tries from our kick off almost went the other way with us capturing the posession..... we have to encourage inovation.

Visser has to get closer to the posts when he touches down to give our 10 a half decent chance of converting the try, he also needs to crank up on his defensive positioning and workrate, as does Scott, Laidlaw, and Hogg. We need to be more accurate on the set piece, and we need to know when to change the pattern and pace of the game. I would consider Denton at blindside

15 Hogg
14 Lamont
11 Visser

13 NDL bring Dunbar on for second half
12 Scott

10 Jackson
9 Blair

8 Brown / Denton
7 Barclay
6 Denton / Brown

5 Kellock
4 Gray

3 Cross
2 Ford
1 Grant

16. Murray
17. Lawson
18. Chunk
19. Hamilton
20. Strokosch
21. Prygos
22. Laidlaw
23. Dunbar or Evans.

could we play right and left flankers even not 6 and 7? there must be some way to get all of our best backs row on the field at once?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Scotland - mobile, speedy and quick??? Lets hope they think so, I'll enjoy the try fest then!!!

Bit like the Welsh try fest on Saturday with all their pace.........oh hang on...

Have to say I do like Scotland's tactic from the restarts - short one just over 10m with Gray galloping up to get it. Not many people could challenge Gray for it, especially if all their 2nd rows will be sitting deep waiting for the long one.

As has been said better execution and it might have worked really well - being behind the kicker is easy to fix (schoolboy stuff), and hopefully Laidlaw won't make another one short again (doubts whether it was actually short or not)

Whoah - respectfully, there have been some left field choices here.

Strokosch had a big PI tour but was not as effective as we needed him to be against the All Blacks. We can afford to be snobbish about this - we have some great back row choices and anything less than consistently good performances will validly cause you to be benched.

Why would you mess around with a Brown at 6 and Dozer at 8 combination? It's a comfortable position for both of them, especially Brown. With Denton and Gray looking happy with making the heavy carries and Brown procuring the penalties and being a chopper, it's blindingly obvious that the talents of John Barclay are not only suited to this game but for balance and expediency demand to be used in it.

Cross tried really hard but Murray hasn't let us down in the scrum in a while and lest we not forget, the Reverend had a huge PI tour himself. He'll have been on a full time training regime at Wuss for a while now and I have no reason to believe he's anything other than match fit. He has to start, Cross on the bench.

I would only start Jackson if someone else is kicking for goal. But then again, I wouldn't start Jackson if Laidlaw is able to exercise a bit more control early.

Anyhoo

Who's going to the match on Saturday?

RDW_Scotland wrote:Have to say I do like Scotland's tactic from the restarts - short one just over 10m with Gray galloping up to get it. Not many people could challenge Gray for it, especially if all their 2nd rows will be sitting deep waiting for the long one.

As has been said better execution and it might have worked really well - being behind the kicker is easy to fix (schoolboy stuff), and hopefully Laidlaw won't make another one short again (doubts whether it was actually short or not)

Agree
Was it Schlong (or Gray) galloping caught the ball mid-air and landed over the line so in my mind it was an ok movement, and not a scrum restart to NZ.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Anyhoo

Who's going to the match on Saturday?

I am will be going out for a few jars post match. Anyone fancies meeting up PM your mobile number. Teuchters is an inevitability at this juncture methinks.

Radge - count me in for some post-match beers. Going to the match with the missus but will pack her off home after the game to get dinner on for when I return.....I'm so so glad she doesn't read this

I've decided we need to put Ritchie Gray out to Stud.

Imagine the team we could have in 22/23 years time if he had a hareem of 100 odd ladies?

Ha - send him out to New Zealand too to get some of their genes into the mix!

If they can do it with a horse, surely they can do it with a professional rugby player. Can't see him complaining!!

Do the Tuilagis have a sister?

123456789 wrote:Do the Tuilagis have a sister?

Why, you like it rough?

Biltong wrote:

123456789 wrote:Do the Tuilagis have a sister?

Why, you like it rough?

Ah, no worries, I get it, you want her genetic stock.

Why am I picturing Ritchie Gray making love to Andy Tuilagi???

WHY ANDY?!?!?!?

sick puppy. Mind you I was thinking about Rebecca Adlington the swimmer as a good genetic match for him

No I was thinking of Richie Gray and the future of Scottish rugby. I wouldn't touch a Tuilagi with a ten foot barge pole

True, ten foot will be a bit excessive, won't it?

thebluesmancometh wrote:Why am I picturing Ritchie Gray making love to Andy Tuilagi???

WHY ANDY?!?!?!?

what the hell???






disclaimer: not that there's anything wrong with being gay

Is a repeat of 2 years ago (3-49 to the ABs) then a win against the Boks the next week? It can hardly be said thats not on the cards since its the near exact scenario- scoreline, places and people (well not quite the same people)

Did Scotland show enough to take on this Bok side and win again?

Maybe. Its a better result for Scotland but still not a great one by any stretch of the imagination.

Certainly Scotland can beat SA in a one off test and its actually pretty important to do so for WC seedings

I'd take odds of 2: 1 against scotland winning tho ~Dunno what the bookies say

Scotland team from 2 years ago

15 Southwell
14 Walker
13 Ansbro (we could really use him at the moment)
12 Morrison
11 Lamont
10 Parks
9 Lawson

8 Brown
7 Barclay
6 Hines
5 Gray
4 McLeod
3 Murray
2 Ford
1 Chunk

I'd say the current side is a bit better than this.

I think Scotland will win this, after what AR said I can't imagine our defence being too leaky. Having said that I'm not sure what I'm basing this on it's probably blind optimism. Out of interest what are the chances of Visser being the top try scorer in the Scotland squad by the end of the month?

The thing with South Africa at the moment is they not only have a lot of injuries, but they are also not playing to their potential.

They don't adapt to referees quickly enough, they look like a bunch of mine workers trudging through quick sand and they just don't seem to gel in the back line.

When you look at how they played the first half against Ireland, you can easily expect them to struggle like that against Scotland.

Every pass or offload they tried in the midfield in that game went either forward or were knocked on.

I haven't been impressed by your new coach to be honest, apart from parts of the second half and the first test against England you've looked sluggish. Out of interest do the South Africans not have good coaches?

We do, they just seem not to be appointed.

My first choice was Nick Mallet, but during his tenure he criticised SARU for the price of test tickes, in SA that is a no no.

Oh Ok, it's just this guy's beginning to make PDV look like Graham Henry

Really must have been up the jumper stuff with that backline. Poor Ansbro (and to an extent Lamont).

It was Lamont who took that restart and honestly no it was not short. Seanie was more than a little bit frustrated! Probably feels hugely under pressure for his spot now with Visser and Maitland coming into the mix...

I agree totally with Carlin's post. We need Barclay for a start and beautifully we can then just play Brown at 6 and let Denton rampage at 8. The back row was an issue before last week's selection because Denton looked so off form ... well now we know he's fine, let's make the backrow how it ideally would have been before that off-form showing in the league.

In my mind there's a 50% chance that Scotland will win this one so anything more than a 2:1 odds is worth taking. Despite the big loss, I'd say Scotland have continued their form from the summer even if Edinburgh haven't. What on earth is going on with them in the league if virtually the same backline that can put together tries against the All Blacks can't beat Treviso or Dragons a couple weeks before? Sheesh.

Let's be fair to AR - he seems to be , slowly , coaching some quality into Scotland.

I'm back to supporting Robinson again, whilst his selections have been questionable, he has nearly always delivered on his promises. Last year he said before the six nations that he'd phase people in; since the last six nations Grant, Denton, Laidlaw, Scott, Visser and Hogg have become first team players as well as that he has capped Jon Welsh, Rob Harley, Duncan Weir, Lee Jones, Henry Pyrsgos, Ed Kalman and Tom Brown and called up MacInally, McKenzie, Dunbar and Horne. he has done the complete opposite of Lancaster who seems to be turning into Lievremont and come the first game of the six nations I'd rather have Scotland's starting line up (if everyone's fit) than England's.



Hopefully it will be:


Scotland England

1. Grant Marler
2. Ford Hartley
3. Murray Coles
4.Gray lawes
5. Hamilton Parling
6. Brown Johnson
7. Rennie Robshaw
8. Denton Waldrom
9. Blair Care
10. Laidlaw Flood
11. Visser Ashton
12. Scott / Dunbar Barritt
13. De Luca / Bennett Tuilagi
14. Maitland Strettle
15. Hogg Foden

I still want Robinson out. His handling of payers is poor, his selections questionable at best and the teams do not play well under him.

Scotlands advances are IMO despite him not because of him. This is the best generation of players I can remember but are not playing that well. he should have been sacked after the six nations,. Judge me on results he said.

Scotland will continue to play below their potential until he goes. I predict another poor 6N - 50 / 50 on a whitewash. 5th or 6th place for sure

123456789 wrote:I think Scotland will win this, after what AR said I can't imagine our defence being too leaky. Having said that I'm not sure what I'm basing this on it's probably blind optimism. Out of interest what are the chances of Visser being the top try scorer in the Scotland squad by the end of the month?

If he's played for Tonga, which I believe he will be, then it's certainly possible but I wouldn't bet my bank account on it. He needs 4 tries to equal Blair & Lamont who have 8 tries apiece. He needs 5 to overtake and become outright the highest try scorer with a lofty 9.

If he has an injury-free and form filled career he'll become Scotland's top ever try scorer I'm sure. I think he'd need 27.

A bit strange seeing as he's Dutch but thems the punches.

I said this last year but if they get 5th or 6th again in the 6N he needs to be sacked.

I agree, he should have been sacked after Italy this year. Or arguably England this year. Or come to think about it, following the world cup really.

But he wasn't. And now Scotland seem to be doing okay. You're right, it's pretty much because the new players are really injecting life and vitality into the squad, but at least Robinson hasn't coached try scoring OUT of them or anything.

It seems to be working for now. I don't care if we get whitewashed this AIs or destroy SA & Tonga ... I'm awaiting again the 6N, when all the teams come out and play properly for a tournament.