Buildup: Scotland vs South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Based on Today.s performance who would you pick to play South Africa.
I'd go for:
15. Hogg
14. Evans
13. Dunbar
12. scott
11. Visser
10. Jackson
9. Blair
8. Denton
7. Rennie (Barclay if he's not fit)
6. Brown
5. Hamilton
4. Gray
3. Murray
2. Ford
1. Grant

playing players out of position is akin to playing off the tee with an iron.

wrong tool for the job.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:His selections can best be described as shambolic.

It's maddening stuff. Brown may be a good enough player to cover seven adequately, but it makes no sense when there is a ready made replacement for Rennie, in Barclay, waiting in the wings. The only conclusion is that he must feel that Strockosh is more deserving of the six spot than Brown?

I don't think this is too much of a disaster compared to the last time we played SA - 3 locks anyone?! How are people ignoring THAT selection?!?!? this time we have 3 actual backrowers, 1 of them world class and able to adapt to 7 because his breakdown work is superb as is his stereotypical 6 play!

I'm glad Max Evans has been dropped. His usual play consists of "take pass, half break, lose ball forward/turnover/no-attempt-at-offload. However his replacement murchie is merely ok although he is "ok" in a number of positions - 15/12/13 so he is decent bench cover... He's more likely to retain ball in contact than Evans so im happier he's on the bench!

Other than that it's a decent team, designed to chop down big saffers running straight at them, win the penalty, retain ball and score tries, WELL DONE ANDY ROBINSON

alive555 wrote:playing players out of position is akin to playing off the tee with an iron.

wrong tool for the job.

You can still get off the tee though.

alive555 wrote:playing players out of position is akin to playing off the tee with an iron.

wrong tool for the job.

Following your analogy you can use an Iron off the tee if the hole requires it.

Riskysports wrote:Some thoughts

Also, happy enough with the backrow


15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors) 8 caps, 1 try, 5 points - Worth his place, but had a poor game, so needs to rediscover form14 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors) 69 caps, 8 tries, 40 points - very lucky to keep place - expect him to prove his worth
13 Nick De Luca (Edinburgh Rugby) 36 caps, 1 try, 5 points - Should have been dropped - poor game again for Scotland. It goes in my household...TV - NDL has the ball. Missis - whats he done wrong this time - TV - he has dropped the ball / been turned over, given a penalty away - It is uncanny
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby) 5 caps - Needs to do better
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby) 3 caps, 4 tries 20 points
10 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby) 11 caps, 2 tries, 10 conversions, 16 penalties, 78 points
9 Mike Blair (Brive) 84 caps, 7 tries, 35 points

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors) 4 caps
2 Ross Ford (Edinburgh Rugby) 62 caps, 2 tries, 10 points - Should be dropped - lost us any chance of putting pressure on the NZ with failed line outs close to their line - has done this too often in games - you can almost assume we have an attacking line out 5 yards out, it will be balls up. Poor in loose, tackling and ok in scrum - needs to find his desire
3 Reverand Euan Murray (Agen) 47 caps, 2 tries, 10 points - Needs to prove his worth - actually thought cross was ok in the scrum (But I seem to be the only person)
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks) 25 caps, 1 try, 5 points
5 Penalty Magnet Hardman Jim Hamilton (Gloucester) 40 caps, 1 try, 5 points - actually did he give than many away - thought is was Denton / Rennie more
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan) 29 caps, 1 try, 5 points
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) CAPTAIN, 50 caps, 4 tries, 20 points
8 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby) 7 caps

Substitutes

16 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors) 37 caps, 1 try, 5 points
17 Kyle Traynor (Bristol Rugby) 3 caps - Chuck was so slow and fat, should have been dropped anyway
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby) 15 caps, 1 try, 5 points
19 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors) 45 caps, 1 try, 5 points
20 John Barclay (Glasgow Warriors) 39 caps, 2 tries, 10 points
21 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors) 1 cap
22 Ruaridh Jackson (Glasgow Warriors) 14 caps, 2 conversions, 2 penalties, 2 drop-goals, 16 points
23 Peter Murchie (Glasgow Warriors) uncapped

Agree with your comments completely. How many more chances do Ford and De Luca get FFS ?

BTW Hamilton gave away 2 penalties in the first 20 mins by going in off his feet right in front of the referee. Thick does not quite cover it ! Is Robinson in love with De Luca's maw ?

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:
Agree with your comments completely. How many more chances do Ford and De Luca get FFS ?

7?

but it will be until a suitable replacement is discovered? De Luca I feel is on a shoogly nail with others chapping at the door

But who replaces Ford?

I'd get Gordon Bullock out of retirment before I put Lawson or Dougie Hall (shudder) in front of Ford.

I don't mind De luca given that he is playing better than ever and works well with Visser - and not a huge amount wrong in the last game for him but last chance saloon. but Ford needs to be knocked out of his comfort zone even tho not a great replacement available.

Shlongs time is over tho I think

But as usual Robinson will be a year behind in his selections, basically he is feart to chance his arm.

Pat MacArthur will replace when Ford when fit !

maybe so Schiz but he's not currently fit. so Ford has to stay for now!

Not really sure why Murchie is in there ahead of Dunbar, Horne and Seymour. Was Tonks called up to the first training squad? We need to get the young guys exposure to international rugby. It would be ideal if they had close to 30 caps under their belts before the next world cup.

Agree that De Luca should be stepping aside, yes he’s fairly solid in the tackle and works well with Scott and Visser but that’s no reason to keep him in there. I wouldn’t be surprised if he holds the Scottish Rugby record for knock-ons and fumbles. Our other options at 13 would be Dunbar, Ansbro (when fit), Grove, Hogg (not that I’d move him from FB), Evans (everyone but AR knows he’s useless in this position), Cairns (when fit) and Bennet (eventually). Dunbar would have been my choice.

Not having a proper 7 in there is another AR special. Barclay is a better 7 than Brown and Brown is a better 6 than Strokosch. I can only imagine that AR will be brining Barclay on when he sees the game open up a little, but not having a specialist 7 to put pressure on the breakdown seems ludicrous to me.

Murray for Cross is understandable, Cross may have coped with the NZ scrum but we need to put pressure on this one and look for penalties. We have a strong, heavy tight 5 that looks like it could do some damage. Lamont is lucky to be there, while I’m a fan, he lost a yard of pace a couple of years ago and is only really there to hit hard, his defensive positioning has also been suspect of late. Might have been worth handing Seymour his debut as he’s been solid for Glasgow this year and would be looking to make an impression.

While this is a much stronger Scotland team than 2 years ago, I can see SA being a bit more worked up for this one, they don’t want a repeat of that defeat and will be looking to bury us. I think they’ll have a little too much and will take it by 5-10 points.

Murchie's flexibility maybe counts here - he has been playing well though.

Rest of it is a usual Robinson brain fart, garbage selection. The man is an utter moron. I would rather have Max Evans at centre than Nock on Nick De Luca tbh

Reckon Stevie Wonder could throw a better line out ball than Ross Ford. Probably wouldn't let Ronan O' Gara run over him either !!!!!

Geezus, this is like when Jack Cuthbert got capped. Tonks can feel slightly agreived at that snub.

This result of this game is going to hinge on Francois Louw. If he brings his A game to the breakdown which on current form is more than likely, we will lose. An out and out openside is what is needed to counter him.

Ive hear people say the SA backline doesnt exactly scream flair, but id tend to disagree. JDV and Kirchner aside, they are all fantastic attacking players. Lambie is a confidence player, if hes got it on the day, hes a match winner. De Jongh is an outstanding defender who can go a whole match without doing anything flashy and then BAM! Hes just slipped through the line and scored from 30 m out. Hougard while primarily a scrumhalf used to play wing for the bulls while FDP was still at his best. Electric pace and step, though has the propensity to be a bit Max Evans like at times. JP and Pienaar im sure were all familiar with.

I think if our line speed is much quicker, well pressure more in defence and see far less individual errors. Watching the ABs game again, their 2nd and 3rd receivers where getting far too easy a ride. If this happens, Id like to think we can shut down Pietersen and De Jongh.

I'm rubbish with a Driver, I nearly always tee off with an Iron

Well I wanted Kellock in for Hamilton due to Hamilton's ill discipline. I wanted Seymour or lamont at 14 and I would have had Strockosh at 7 instead of Brown. So all in all I'm not too phazed as I do like hamilton as a player and i think Brown can perform at 7.

Now i know SA are plagued with injuries but I think we're going to have a harder time this year than 2010. SA are almost definitely going to give themselves a kick up the arse after what i thought was a very slack performance against Ireland. Pinaar is so good at closing out games and I think his experience in the pro12 will come in handy this saturday. Could be a close one, or SA will dominate. I hope I can be proved wrong though, i would love to Scotland win back to back victories over SA.

Looking forward to seeing whether Visser can front up against our strong ball carriers, I am sure Meyer will have watched the tapes of Visser vs NZ, De Villiers and JP Pietersen will be aware.

I don't see what all the fuss is about the selection of the back row.
Yeah Brown is better at 6 but against a big South African back row who have no natural openside either then the back row selected is going to match them.
The weather conditions on Saturday mean that it is going to be a big battle in the forwards which is going to suit our back row and have less of a need for a genuine 7.
Strokosh is in excellent form and doesn't get credited with a lot of the stuff he does as a lot goes unseen. Denton is getting back in to form and was outstanding when he came on and Brown is more than adequate at playing 7. He has played there before regularly, has good pace, hands.

I can see why Murchie has been selected too, South Africa will adopt their aerial kicking tactic and put a lot of bombs up on Scotland due to the conditions. Murchie is good under the high ball and his size will come to good use if he comes on.

Majestic, Louw is a natural fetcher, Alberts is a natural ball carrier.

Besides that the time where one fetcher does all the pilfering is long gone. The backrow now hunts as a pack, Vermeulen is as adept at pilfering as Louw is.

Majestic83 wrote:I don't see what all the fuss is about the selection of the back row.
Yeah Brown is better at 6 but against a big South African back row who have no natural openside either then the back row selected is going to match them.
The weather conditions on Saturday mean that it is going to be a big battle in the forwards which is going to suit our back row and have less of a need for a genuine 7.
Strokosh is in excellent form and doesn't get credited with a lot of the stuff he does as a lot goes unseen. Denton is getting back in to form and was outstanding when he came on and Brown is more than adequate at playing 7. He has played there before regularly, has good pace, hands.

I can see why Murchie has been selected too, South Africa will adopt their aerial kicking tactic and put a lot of bombs up on Scotland due to the conditions. Murchie is good under the high ball and his size will come to good use if he comes on.

THey do have an openside, Francois Louw. I hope the players have done more research on their opposition as some on here!

Imperialbigdave wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:I don't see what all the fuss is about the selection of the back row.
Yeah Brown is better at 6 but against a big South African back row who have no natural openside either then the back row selected is going to match them.
The weather conditions on Saturday mean that it is going to be a big battle in the forwards which is going to suit our back row and have less of a need for a genuine 7.
Strokosh is in excellent form and doesn't get credited with a lot of the stuff he does as a lot goes unseen. Denton is getting back in to form and was outstanding when he came on and Brown is more than adequate at playing 7. He has played there before regularly, has good pace, hands.

I can see why Murchie has been selected too, South Africa will adopt their aerial kicking tactic and put a lot of bombs up on Scotland due to the conditions. Murchie is good under the high ball and his size will come to good use if he comes on.

THey do have an openside, Francois Louw. I hope the players have done more research on their opposition as some on here!

Louw is not a natural openside and has a played a lot of his rugby at blindside in the past and also at Bath. If anything he is more a 6 1/2 but definitely not an out and out 7.

Majestic83 wrote:

Imperialbigdave wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:I don't see what all the fuss is about the selection of the back row.
Yeah Brown is better at 6 but against a big South African back row who have no natural openside either then the back row selected is going to match them.
The weather conditions on Saturday mean that it is going to be a big battle in the forwards which is going to suit our back row and have less of a need for a genuine 7.
Strokosh is in excellent form and doesn't get credited with a lot of the stuff he does as a lot goes unseen. Denton is getting back in to form and was outstanding when he came on and Brown is more than adequate at playing 7. He has played there before regularly, has good pace, hands.

I can see why Murchie has been selected too, South Africa will adopt their aerial kicking tactic and put a lot of bombs up on Scotland due to the conditions. Murchie is good under the high ball and his size will come to good use if he comes on.

THey do have an openside, Francois Louw. I hope the players have done more research on their opposition as some on here!

Louw is not a natural openside and has a played a lot of his rugby at blindside in the past and also at Bath. If anything he is more a 6 1/2 but definitely not an out and out 7.

Id have to disagree with you there. Watch the difference he makes at the breakdown when he gets introduced halfway through the rugby championship.

We'll have to agree to disagree mate on that one.
I don't think Saturday will make much difference whether either team has a natural 7 or not.
The weather is looking like it will be very wet and will probably be a forward orientated game. The Boks certainly look like they are gearing up for that sort of game in training this week.
I'm confident our back row is good enough to get one up on theirs. Having watched South Africa through out the rugby championship and summer tests this current team is not one that strikes any fear into me as some south african teams have in the past.

Majestic83 wrote:

I can see why Murchie has been selected too, South Africa will adopt their aerial kicking tactic and put a lot of bombs up on Scotland due to the conditions. Murchie is good under the high ball and his size will come to good use if he comes on.

Sounds like Tonks' strengths, except tonks has been playing much better!

Barclay is back to his best and is the best we have at the breakdown IMO - and as the breakdown will be key then I think he should be playing. None of the others will let us down tho I am sure - its just Barclay is the man to do the job we need done the best.

Majestic83 wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree mate on that one.
I don't think Saturday will make much difference whether either team has a natural 7 or not.
The weather is looking like it will be very wet and will probably be a forward orientated game. The Boks certainly look like they are gearing up for that sort of game in training this week.
I'm confident our back row is good enough to get one up on theirs. Having watched South Africa through out the rugby championship and summer tests this current team is not one that strikes any fear into me as some south african teams have in the past.

Well it won't really (strike as much fear) it is short of 10 top players.

Biltong wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree mate on that one.
I don't think Saturday will make much difference whether either team has a natural 7 or not.
The weather is looking like it will be very wet and will probably be a forward orientated game. The Boks certainly look like they are gearing up for that sort of game in training this week.
I'm confident our back row is good enough to get one up on theirs. Having watched South Africa through out the rugby championship and summer tests this current team is not one that strikes any fear into me as some south african teams have in the past.

Well it won't really (strike as much fear) it is short of 10 top players.

Even if they didn't have injuries I have not been impressed with the South African Team this year, they just don't seem as intimidating as they once did and don't seem to have the same energy that i have seen from other South African teams.

Majestic, take out ten of your best players, then tell me you can compare the physicality and performance on like for llike basis.

Lets take Bismarck du Plessis and compare him to Adriaan Strauss.

Bismarck is the quintessential hooker, he pilfers, drives, mauls, tackles and his presence is felt all over the field for 80 minutes, then take Strauss, an honest to goodness hard worker, he isn't a bad replacement, but not in the class of Bismarck.

Lets take Habana and compre him to Frnacois Hougaard.

Habana scores tries from nothing, he makes plays, Hougaard has played more trsts than Habana and JP Pietersen this year, due to their injuries, yet he has made no plays and scored no tries this year.

Then swap Haban a for JP Pietersen, who was the form winger in the Super XV this year and in the June test matches before his injury.

Compare Morne Steyn with Lambie and Goosen, there is once again no comparison.

All teams have injuries though just like Scotland do just now with players.
As I said even with those players involved the Boks are not as dominating as they have been.
What key players are actually missing from the starting line up for South Africa at the moment? Habana, Spies although from what i have seen of him and heard from South African mates they are pleased Vermeulen is in ahead of him. Bismarck and the Beast?

What comparison are you making with Steyn, Lambie and Goosen?
Steyn has been terrible this year for both the bulls and boks!

You're right Majestic, I am talking out of my backside. It makes no difference.

not feeling too confident then biltong? :-) whats your prediction? I have SA by ten.

I think we have enough talent to win the match, however I am yet to be impressed by the Boks this year.

50/50 this one. Gonna be one of the match ups of the year, even if it's a dour game.

Biltong wrote:You're right Majestic, I am talking out of my backside. It makes no difference.

To be honest I don't see where the big injury nightmare is for South Africa. Beast, Bismark, Habana, Spies? Who else am I missing that would be a dead cert to start?
Scotland are missing Ansbro, Rennie, Cusiter, Welsh, Jacobson and Low!!

Biltong wrote:Well consider the following.

If everyone was available. (Bolded the replacements)

1. Beast Mtwarira - Steenkamp, v d Merwe
2. Bismarck du Plessis - Adriaan STrauss
3. Jannie du Plessis - CJ v d Linde
4. Eben Etzebeth
5. Andries Bekker - Juandre Kruger
6. Schalk Burger - Frans Louw
7. Willem Alberts
8. Pierre SPies - Duane Vermeulen
9. Ruan Pienaar
10. Johan Goosen - Patrick Lambie
11. Bryan Habana- Francois Hougaard
12. Frans Steyn - Juan de Jongh
13. Jean de Villiers
14. JP Pietersen
15. Zane Kirchner

So you are looking at roughly ten selection changes. ALthough I will suggest that Strauss for Bismarck, Lambie for Goosen are not weakening the team. The real problem comes into the bench, as these guys in bold will usually be your impact players, now the bench isn't nearly as strong.

Majestic, I posted this earlier in the thread.

Majestic: Consider the following players: Beast, Schalk, Juan Smith, Jacque Fourie, Bismark, Oosthuizen, Bekker, Frans Steyn, Brussow, Fourie du Preez, Spies, Kanko, Goosen, Habana

Quite an imposing list I'd say and I guess most would agree.

Our best flanks, best fetcher, best lock, best hooker, best scrumhalf, best flyhalf, best centers, best winger, best impact prop.

Bismark, Smith, Burger, Brussow, Jacque Fourie, du Preez, Steyn, Habana are all truly world class (top three in their positions globally when playing regularly). Not only are they great players but also vastly experienced.

I don't know how you can state that even with them back that the Bok team is not imposing. Add them to the current touring squad and you've probably the only match day 22 that could have a 50/50 chance of beating the All Blacks.

Danie R and Bakkies are also still playing amazing rugby and good enough for selection. It's really only John Smit and Matfield who are truly gone for good.

Yeah some of those have been impressive names in the past, unfortunately for Juan Smith he hasn't played for how long now? Jacque Fourie doesn't want to play for the boks anymore as he is chasing the money! Some of them might make it an imposing list but as an opposition fan then are teams that fill you with fear before you play them which in the past some South African teams have but i am sorry to say that this team does not even with a lot of those players included in there.
I would say we beat a better South African team 2 years ago with what is a weaker Scotland team.
I might be proven wrong on Saturday but for me I don't find the current South African team intimidating or imposing!

Scotland are missing some of their best as well- and from a much smaller pool of players.

Nothing wrong with that, you assess a team and their threats and make a summation.

In that case I guess only the All Blacks fill you with fear right? Scotland for the 6N this year?

I've spoken to mates of mine in NZ and even they will acknowledge a full strength SA team, particularly with a running flyhalf makes them nervous. There is no team they fear more.

Reports from SA state that Juan Smith is almost there and that H Meyer is making strides getting Jacque Fourie back for the next WC. I'd guess he'll have one more year in Japan.

Good luck for the match. I personally think SA will be really up for it after last week's second half and due to the loss last time in Scotland. No complacency this visit. Surely not two Murryfield ambushes is a row?

Don't really care wh

MMaaxx wrote:In that case I guess only the All Blacks fill you with fear right? Scotland for the 6N this year?

I've spoken to mates of mine in NZ and even they will acknowledge a full strength SA team, particularly with a running flyhalf makes them nervous. There is no team they fear more.

Reports from SA state that Juan Smith is almost there and that H Meyer is making strides getting Jacque Fourie back for the next WC. I'd guess he'll have one more year in Japan.

Good luck for the match. I personally think SA will be really up for it after last week's second half and due to the loss last time in Scotland. No complacency this visit. Surely not two Murryfield ambushes is a row?

Like most if not all Scotland fans I veer between wild optimism and hopeless pessimism right now I can't see where another win is coming from and doubt we will win a game until robinson is gone.

I'd say at the moment the only teams I would be fearful off are obviously the All Blacks and then the French but even then I'd still say on our day we could beat them.
Scotland for 6 nations? maybe a year to early but I wouldn't rule it out this year!
Glad to hear Juan Smith might be making a comeback, great player.

Ok, confidence is a good thing and clearly Scotland is improving as is their depth. 6N this year would not be beyond them considering Ireland and Wales are slipping slightly. A bit of luck and it could happen.

Scotland is my 6N team ever since watching them live in the 95WC as a ten year old and meeting Gavin Hastings.

Anyway goodluck again

Imperialbigdave wrote:Acid tests always the 6N. I agree he shouldve gone after the most recent one, but he didnt, and the teams doing ok just now, so im happy to wait till the spring and see.

Does everyone agree with this?
Because I can't understand why competing against the teams ranked 4-7 is more of an acid test than playing teams 1 and 3. Surely you would want to judge yourself against the top teams.

Would many of you Scots fans take 6Ns grand slam over an AI clean sweep?

nganboy wrote:

Imperialbigdave wrote:Acid tests always the 6N. I agree he shouldve gone after the most recent one, but he didnt, and the teams doing ok just now, so im happy to wait till the spring and see.

Does everyone agree with this?
Because I can't understand why competing against the teams ranked 4-7 is more of an acid test than playing teams 1 and 3. Surely you would want to judge yourself against the top teams.

Would many of you Scots fans take 6Ns grand slam over an AI clean sweep?

I would cut my right arm off to see Scotland win a grand slam!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

nganboy wrote:

Imperialbigdave wrote:Acid tests always the 6N. I agree he shouldve gone after the most recent one, but he didnt, and the teams doing ok just now, so im happy to wait till the spring and see.

Does everyone agree with this?
Because I can't understand why competing against the teams ranked 4-7 is more of an acid test than playing teams 1 and 3. Surely you would want to judge yourself against the top teams.

Would many of you Scots fans take 6Ns grand slam over an AI clean sweep?

I would cut my right arm off to see Scotland win a grand slam!

How you gonna celebrate then?

BLonde on the left arm, beer?

She could hold the beer!

I think every Scotsman would say the same - a grand slam is the holy grail for what we can achieve as a nation

Its because the 6 N are a competition and has been going a long time. AIs are friendlies and vary year by year

Of course a clean sweep would be great and I relish the victories we have had. But its not the same as the 6N

I have though about this and here is my take on what the springboks will do on Saturday.

The forawrds will be hard and physical at the breakdown, they will have watched the video's of the match against australia in June and will use numbers at the breakdown, the forward pods will attack in channel one hitting it up and setting up the next phases, 1 pass 2 pass plays.

They will try to murder the scottish forwards with hard running forwards, with Lambie there expect the centres to run hard into midfield and attempt to get JP one on one onto Visser.

I suspect if it is very wet you will see a lot of u[ and unders, it won't be attractive running rugby if it is wet, it will be low risk passes, hard running rugby and the odd skip pass to JP Pietersen.

The Boks to win by 8.

If that is going to be the Bolks tactics then it will be an almighty clash inthe forwards as unlike a few years ago the Scots pack are able to go toe to toe with anyone and not be bullied. Plenty of big strong men.

It used to be Scotland packs were underpowered - no more. Its a pack to match anyones.

Looking forward to it.

From Scotland I believe the tactics should be to mix it up and move it around, tap and gos, chips over the top and be unpredictable. don't let the Boks settle or control the game. got to get to Pienaar as well - he needs to be welcomed to murreyfeild in traditional fashion :-) put on his arse then ground into the turf. Have to deny him space and time.