Wales vs Samoa KO 19:30 Fri 16th Nov - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

WALES V Samoa

Venue: Millennium Stadium Cardiff Date: Friday, 16 November Kick-off: 19:30 GMT

Coverage: Live on BBC One Wales & online; live on S4C; live commentary on BBC Radio Wales & online; live commentary on Radio Cymru

Seeing as no one has started a thread yet I thought I would.

Enjoy the discussion.

Leigh Halfpenny
Alex Cuthbert
Ashley Beck
Jamie Roberts
George North
Dan Biggar
Mike Phillips
Paul James
Richard Hibbard
Aaron Jarvis
Bradley Davies
Ian Evans
Ryan Jones (Capt)
Justin Tipuric
Toby Faletau

REPLACEMENTS:
Ken Owens, Gethin Jenkins, Scott Andrews, Luke Charteris, Sam Warburton, Tavis Knoyle, Rhys Priestland, Scott Williams

Samoa:
F Autagavaia (Northland)
P Perez (Eastern Province)
G Pisi (Northampton)
P Williams (Stade Francais)
D Lemi (Worcester, captain)
T Pisi (Suntory)
K Fotuali'i (Ospreys)
S Taulafo (Wasps)
O Avei (Bordeaux-Begles)
C Johnston (Toulouse)
D Leo (Perpignan)
T Paulo (North Harbour)
O Treviranus (London Irish)
M Fa'asavalu (Harlequins)
T Tuifua (Newcastle)

Replacements: T Paulo (Clermont Auvergne), V Afatia (Agen), J Johnston (Harlequins), F Lemalu (Mont de Marsan), T Fomai (Hawke's Bay), J Su'a (Tasman), J Leota (Sale), R Lilomaiava (Laulii).

[Guest]

Why is everyone worried about falling out of the top 8 for the World Cup (from a Wales perspective)? W always end up in a group of death anyway, it's just that this time we may be the 'plucky' 3rd team.

Feck, i just spat some beer

Glad I made you laugh! But seriously though, if Samoa get in as the 2nd seeds and we're in as 3rd to the same pool, then what difference does it really make to last year? Same pool, same teams!

You get shafted playing midweek matches with only 4 days rest,I think that's the worst part of being 3rd seeds.

C'est la vie.

[Gibson]

Samoa

The passion and skill Samoa bring to international rugby is brilliant. France vs Samoa will be worth a watch. After that result they will be flying!

+1.

That will be one to see.

I'm delighted for Samoa. Not in a WUM way. Just delighted for them.

Id love to see the 2nd World Order turned upside-down. Most all NH International teams are complete and utter shoite to watch(save France). Samoa, are not. Love their self-belief against all the IRB odds.

Ireland & Wales are where they should be. Where they fully deserve to be. On the edge of the Top 8 precipice.

This is most probably just me but I actually love the way way the British teams play rugby

That's cool too. Rugby is a sport to be enjoyed, whatever your angle. Its just that they will get nowhere at the RWC on this showing.

But, your point still stands.

[eirebilly]

Oh and by the way really like Halfpenny and think he is establishing himself as a shoe in for the Lions test team. Only thing that can stop that now is Kearney coming back and being absolutley amazing for Ireland!

Kearney will have to be sublime to oust 1/2p. I cant see a side in the world that would not start 1/2p, including the AB's.

Is the definition of "sublime" really that much better than "absolutely amazing" in this context?

Sublimly amazingly amazing then?

[Irishhoneymonster]

Agreed Gibbo they will both go but at this rate Halfpenny will definitely be starting and might even be taking the kicks at goal as well!

[Irishhoneymonster]

Oh and by the way really like Halfpenny and think he is establishing himself as a shoe in for the Lions test team. Only thing that can stop that now is Kearney coming back and being absolutley amazing for Ireland!

Kearney will have to be sublime to oust 1/2p. I cant see a side in the world that would not start 1/2p, including the AB's.

Is the definition of "sublime" really that much better than "absolutely amazing" in this context?

Sublimly amazingly amazing then?

HA yes ok I'll go with that

[Gibson]

Agreed Gibbo they will both go but at this rate Halfpenny will definitely be starting and might even be taking the kicks at goal as well!

Ah don't get carried away now lad. That'll be Jonny Sextons job. But for the 50+ metre kicks, yes he will. He has a huge, accurate boot on him.

[ME-109]

Agreed Gibbo they will both go but at this rate Halfpenny will definitely be starting and might even be taking the kicks at goal as well!

Ah don't get carried away now lad. That'll be Jonny Sextons job. But for the 50+ metre kicks, yes he will. He has a huge, accurate boot on him.

That's about it though. He can't do feic all else

[MrsP]

Agreed Gibbo they will both go but at this rate Halfpenny will definitely be starting and might even be taking the kicks at goal as well!

Ah don't get carried away now lad. That'll be Jonny Sextons job. But for the 50+ metre kicks, yes he will. He has a huge, accurate boot on him.

What did you have to go and do that for???

Now even this thread will be invaded and bespoiled by the usual suspects!

[Guest]

Not sure I'm as enthralled with Halfpenny as some others, even as a Taff. Yes he can kick goals. So could John Eales. But he's not that influential on the game, doesn't put monster boots in to touch to clear the lines, doesn't make line breaks like the top 15s. Israel Dagg for me is quality. A true line breaker and slippery as an eel. Creates and scores lots of tries from nothing. Halfpenny does none of those things consistently for me. He falls over, slips, trips far too much. He's only good because we've got a poor point kicker at 10.

B&I Lions wise I'd take him, but Kearney or Foden are just as good if not better if you've got a point kicking 10 (e.g. Sexton).

[MrsP]

Before I even got to press the send button!!!!!!!!

[Irishhoneymonster]

Where was the welsh game-plan. Where was it last week? You'd think we'd have learned how to play the Islanders by now. We were so loose and played into Samoa's hands. When you think weve only scored a length of the field interception try. We have serious problems controlling a game and you just knew that Priestland would struggle. I thought that in particular, Ryan Jones was awful. He was a liability, we can't get over the gain-line and gave away points with needless penalties. Also, Bradley Davies? What's that about?
You have to question what on earth Rob Howley is doing. We were all taken in by the training camp in Spala. Well we seen to now be struggling towards the ends of games. We can't argue. We lost 3 tries to 1. A well deserved win for Samoa. I hope that Roger ( all is well with welsh rugby) Lewis is sitting a little bit more uncomfortably tonight!

I don't think it's so much the game plan but more a lack of intensity. In Rugby, and especially at this level, you have to earn the right to implement your gameplan.

[anotherworldofpain]

Not a bad effort by NZ-B tonight

[eirebilly]

Before I even got to press the send button!!!!!!!!

[Gibson]

Agreed Gibbo they will both go but at this rate Halfpenny will definitely be starting and might even be taking the kicks at goal as well!

Ah don't get carried away now lad. That'll be Jonny Sextons job. But for the 50+ metre kicks, yes he will. He has a huge, accurate boot on him.

That's about it though. He can't do feic all else

Too easy to ease DOD out.

ROG, is a Lions ligind. Or is that leg-end?

[Ozzy3213]

What a win for Samoa.

Pride, passion and no little skill.

GO THE MANU

[Rory_Gallagher]

Eirebilly - do you honestly think Halfpenny would start over Dagg for NZ? I would say that is crazy talk, honestly. Dagg is without a doubt head and shoulders above Halfpenny and pretty much every other 15 around right now.

Rory, yes i do. I honestly feel that 1/2p is the best 15 around right now and a hell of a fall back for a kicking option.

Fair play mate, he is definitely the man in possession of the Lions 15 jersey so far I would say.

My main criticism of Halfpenny is how linear his running is with ball in hand.

[eirebilly]

Eirebilly - do you honestly think Halfpenny would start over Dagg for NZ? I would say that is crazy talk, honestly. Dagg is without a doubt head and shoulders above Halfpenny and pretty much every other 15 around right now.

Rory, yes i do. I honestly feel that 1/2p is the best 15 around right now and a hell of a fall back for a kicking option.

Fair play mate, he is definitely the man in possession of the Lions 15 jersey so far I would say.

My main criticism of Halfpenny is how linear his running is with ball in hand.

His qualities were clear to be seen today. In a team largely on the back foot, he took the mantle and was making ground for his forwards to use. Clearly the best player on a loosing team by miles. His goalkicking is simply a huge plus but his allround game is the best 15 out there right now i feel.

[Irishhoneymonster]

Not sure I'm as enthralled with Halfpenny as some others, even as a Taff. Yes he can kick goals. So could John Eales. But he's not that influential on the game, doesn't put monster boots in to touch to clear the lines, doesn't make line breaks like the top 15s. Israel Dagg for me is quality. A true line breaker and slippery as an eel. Creates and scores lots of tries from nothing. Halfpenny does none of those things consistently for me. He falls over, slips, trips far too much. He's only good because we've got a poor point kicker at 10.

B&I Lions wise I'd take him, but Kearney or Foden are just as good if not better if you've got a point kicking 10 (e.g. Sexton).

IMO Halfpenny played well all in all and I now feel the others are playing catch up. His place kicking is simply an added bonus. Having said that there is plenty of Rugby to be played between now and June but for me Halfpenny would be on the team sheet if the first Lions test was next week!

[Yoda]

He gets my vote

[manofgwent]

Irishhoney monster
Agreed, but when Wales were inside the Samoan 22, they didn't have a clue what to do next. They didn't earn the right, but when they did get into positions they seemed clueless.

[eirebilly]

1/2p reminds me so much of Matt Burke from Australia. One of the best 15's of all time.

[thebluesmancometh]

manofgwent

We went into Samoas 22 twice, breakaway try and mess up from the winger, our problem was that we couldn't get into the 22, 160 minutes without creating a linebreak or working our way into anyones 22

[Irishhoneymonster]

Irishhoney monster
Agreed, but when Wales were inside the Samoan 22, they didn't have a clue what to do next. They didn't earn the right, but when they did get into positions they seemed clueless.

Ok fair enough but when I say earn the right, I don't mean you have earnt it by getting into the 22 every so often. By earn the right I mean you front up with physicallity and intensity in general from the start and win the breakdown battle. Wales didn't do that tonight at all and therefore never earnt the right to implement their gameplan as I put it earlier.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Wasn't Rob Kearney European Player of the Year last season? I don't think that merits much catching up to be done. If he's fit, which is an if, he will travel and I would pick him ahead of Halfpenny. Take away his kicking for goal and I don't see what he offers that Kearney and Foden for that matter don't.

[Guest]

Wasn't Rob Kearney European Player of the Year last season? I don't think that merits much catching up to be done. If he's fit, which is an if, he will travel and I would pick him ahead of Halfpenny. Take away his kicking for goal and I don't see what he offers that Kearney and Foden for that matter don't.

Why not just copy my post word for word! *plagiarism*

[englandglory4ever]

1/P reminds of one of those flashy kit cars. ie, Looks the part but doesn't really perform like the real thing. His goal kicking is excellent though.

He gets the ball and goes on a run but it rarely comes to anything from fullback. Not very effective generally. He is a quality finisher though and maybe wing is a better slot for him.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Sorry Griff, didn't see you post that. I would say great minds think alike but I could be insulting one or other of us.

[Guest]

1/P reminds of one of those flashy kit cars. ie, Looks the part but doesn't really perform like the real thing. His goal kicking is excellent though.

He gets the ball and goes on a run but it rarely comes to anything from fullback. Not very effective generally. He is a quality finisher though and maybe wing is a better slot for him.

I agree with that. He's better with a touchline in his face than in open play, IMO.

[Guest]

Sorry Griff, didn't see you post that. I would say great minds think alike but I could be insulting one or other of us.

[Irishhoneymonster]

Wasn't Rob Kearney European Player of the Year last season? I don't think that merits much catching up to be done. If he's fit, which is an if, he will travel and I would pick him ahead of Halfpenny. Take away his kicking for goal and I don't see what he offers that Kearney and Foden for that matter don't.

I agree in many respects Hook, but at same time Halfpenny is showing the form. For Kearney to come back from injury and get the shirt he going to have to show his own form as well. I'm not saying it won't happen and in fact in many respects I expect him to do it. It's just that the way Halfpenny is playing, Kearney will undoubtedly have to show his usual special form in this 6 Nations! Right now it is Halpenny's to lose or Kearney's (and Foden's too to be fair) to go out and grab hold of!

[manofgwent]

Irish. You know what you're gonna get from Samoa. You know they're going to be physical, but you have to have a game-plan to deal with that. Wales were too loose, poor kicking, no control and no real leadership and to top I'f off, the captain, Ryan Jones was dreadful and gave away costly penalties!

Wales kicking ge was poor and so too was the set-pie e and I agree, we again struggled atvthe breakdown, where Samoa, like Argentina had a field day. Think Wales are missing Dan Lydiate!

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Sorry Honeymonester, I don't understand what 'form' Halfpenny has been showing. He's been playing averagely in a poor Blues team. Take his excellent kicking away in the summer and in the autumn internationals then what does he offer? I just don't see it at all presently. Apart from kicking Kearney is superior in every respect. I would say the same for Foden, and it pains me to say that about an English player.

Wales need him for the points and despite offering absolutely nothing in attack in the past two matches, he has single handedly keep them from two much heavier defeats. But in the Lions team where they might have a competent q0 there is no need for a kicking 15.

[Irishhoneymonster]

Irish. You know what you're gonna get from Samoa. You know they're going to be physical, but you have to have a game-plan to deal with that. Wales were too loose, poor kicking, no control and no real leadership and to top I'f off, the captain, Ryan Jones was dreadful and gave away costly penalties!

Wales kicking ge was poor and so too was the set-pie e and I agree, we again struggled atvthe breakdown, where Samoa, like Argentina had a field day. Think Wales are missing Dan Lydiate!

The first thing to do is front up which should be part of your gameplan. Then you can worry about the rest of your gameplan!

[HammerofThunor]

Quite a few of Halfpenny's 'breaks' seem to come from him falling over as he's about the get tackled.

Also I don't know why people are talking about the starting team for the Lions. That will be decided on tour. All pre-tour form does is get you there in the first place.

[Higher_Ground]

Comprehensively beaten by a better team.
Would be more pleased for them if they hadn't gone about their business in such a reckless way. Hope they can kick that horse-sh1t to touch, because they are quality.

[Irishhoneymonster]

Sorry Honeymonester, I don't understand what 'form' Halfpenny has been showing. He's been playing averagely in a poor Blues team. Take his excellent kicking away in the summer and in the autumn internationals then what does he offer? I just don't see it at all presently. Apart from kicking Kearney is superior in every respect. I would say the same for Foden, and it pains me to say that about an English player.

Wales need him for the points and despite offering absolutely nothing in attack in the past two matches, he has single handedly keep them from two much heavier defeats. But in the Lions team where they might have a competent q0 there is no need for a kicking 15.

Ok fair points Hook, to be fair I haven't seen every game he has played for the Blues, a few but not all. What I will say is that he has been just about the only shining light for Wales in this Autumn series. Now don't get me wrong he has not been absolutely fantastic, but he has been playing well in a team that is struggling. Therefore for me if Kearney is going to get the shirt he will have to come back from injury at a level which he was showing before he got injured which is not a given. I'm just saying if there was a Lions test next weekend then IMO Halfpenny would be on the teamsheet. It's really not that controversial

[gavstar]

biggar and hibbard were doing ok, roberts was the best in defence i've seen him, 1/2p lions toe in, our 2 wings cant defend, rp... end of, absolutely awfull.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

Sorry Honeymonester, I don't understand what 'form' Halfpenny has been showing. He's been playing averagely in a poor Blues team. Take his excellent kicking away in the summer and in the autumn internationals then what does he offer? I just don't see it at all presently. Apart from kicking Kearney is superior in every respect. I would say the same for Foden, and it pains me to say that about an English player.

Wales need him for the points and despite offering absolutely nothing in attack in the past two matches, he has single handedly keep them from two much heavier defeats. But in the Lions team where they might have a competent q0 there is no need for a kicking 15.

Ok fair points Hook, to be fair I haven't seen every game he has played for the Blues, a few but not all. What I will say is that he has been just about the only shining light for Wales in this Autumn series. Now don't get me wrong he has not been absolutely fantastic, but he has been playing well in a team that is struggling. Therefore for me if Kearney is going to get the shirt he will have to come back from injury at a level which he was showing before he got injured which is not a given. I'm just saying if there was a Lions test next weekend then IMO Halfpenny would be on the teamsheet. It's really not that controversial

I largely agree. I just don't see what he has done for Wales this season in truth. Take away his kicking, what has he actually done? I would suggest not very much. I think that accusation could be laid at quite a few Welsh players at the moment. I was really disappointed with Tipuric tonight. A couple of excellent turnovers, but largely outmuscled at the breakdown.

On Kearney, he has had alot of injuries over the past three seasons and you just never know when they will take its toll. Just as a point of comparison though, kicking aside Halfpenny has offered Wales very little. In a dreadful spell for Ireland Kearney has been our best player by a distance. Halfpenny really needs to step it up. He gets the Lions 15 almost by elimination at present for me.

[Irishhoneymonster]

Sorry Honeymonester, I don't understand what 'form' Halfpenny has been showing. He's been playing averagely in a poor Blues team. Take his excellent kicking away in the summer and in the autumn internationals then what does he offer? I just don't see it at all presently. Apart from kicking Kearney is superior in every respect. I would say the same for Foden, and it pains me to say that about an English player.

Wales need him for the points and despite offering absolutely nothing in attack in the past two matches, he has single handedly keep them from two much heavier defeats. But in the Lions team where they might have a competent q0 there is no need for a kicking 15.

Ok fair points Hook, to be fair I haven't seen every game he has played for the Blues, a few but not all. What I will say is that he has been just about the only shining light for Wales in this Autumn series. Now don't get me wrong he has not been absolutely fantastic, but he has been playing well in a team that is struggling. Therefore for me if Kearney is going to get the shirt he will have to come back from injury at a level which he was showing before he got injured which is not a given. I'm just saying if there was a Lions test next weekend then IMO Halfpenny would be on the teamsheet. It's really not that controversial

I largely agree. I just don't see what he has done for Wales this season in truth. Take away his kicking, what has he actually done? I would suggest not very much. I think that accusation could be laid at quite a few Welsh players at the moment. I was really disappointed with Tipuric tonight. A couple of excellent turnovers, but largely outmuscled at the breakdown.

On Kearney, he has had alot of injuries over the past three seasons and you just never know when they will take its toll. Just as a point of comparison though, kicking aside Halfpenny has offered Wales very little. In a dreadful spell for Ireland Kearney has been our best player by a distance. Halfpenny really needs to step it up. He gets the Lions 15 almost by elimination at present for me.

Agreed Tipuric was fairly anonomous this evening which was a real disappointment.

Ok but Foden is still playing. I just feel it is up to Foden and Kearney (when he returns) to step it up in order to take the shirt off Halfpenny, that is all. No big deal.

But yes the back row selection also seems to be getting more interesting by the week with players not stepping up and players currently injured.

[bedfordwelsh]

For those of a similar age to myself ie wrong side of 40 you, like me would have seen some dark days as a rugby fan, back end of the 80s and most of the 90s with trips to Twickenham the twice yearly sado machicist trip.

BUT I done something tonight I have never ever done before I got up and left before the final whistle, it was a complete and utter disgrace and then when I got in the car Howly was on the radio saying we lost the second half, did he really think we were the better team at anytime in that game. If so he's a biiger clown than i thought he was.

Our kicking game again was pathetic, when Samoa kicked they kicked it high and it hanged so their players could at least get the and challenge, when we kicked it was long, aimless and pointless.

Our attacking game was non existenet in the last 160 minutes of rugby we have not actually created one not one clear cut trying scoring chance.

I won't even bother naming a team for next week because I honestly believe if the Blacks come out with hte right attitude then they will put 50 on us before half time.

[yappysnap]

Well done Samoa!

Oddly I can see Wales bouncing back now and having a pretty close game against the AB's before turning over the Wallabies, a lot of Wales game is built on passion and I think the truly terrible opening matches may be a kick up the arse for the players to throw off the shackles.


On the full back front remember there's Foden and Hogg in contention as well and Goode had an absolute belter last week (and he kicks) and is a totally different style of player to any other 15 in Britian (so maybe an interesting alternative).

[ChequeredJersey]

Foden's injured. I'd also like to add Mike Brown to "potential" FBs for the Lions. If he gets to play or shows European form like last year's HEC groups. And Zebo, didn't he have a grand first game there?

But yeah, I've advocated 1/2p for a while. Could maybe have done better on that last try, but he was Wales' best player, and he does offer a lot in attack. Probably less than Kearney but I'd say he's just as good a player overall and he is an even better wing, so he'll tour. I'd play him on the wing actually

[Irishhoneymonster]

For those of a similar age to myself ie wrong side of 40 you, like me would have seen some dark days as a rugby fan, back end of the 80s and most of the 90s with trips to Twickenham the twice yearly sado machicist trip.

BUT I done something tonight I have never ever done before I got up and left before the final whistle, it was a complete and utter disgrace and then when I got in the car Howly was on the radio saying we lost the second half, did he really think we were the better team at anytime in that game. If so he's a biiger clown than i thought he was.

Our kicking game again was pathetic, when Samoa kicked they kicked it high and it hanged so their players could at least get the and challenge, when we kicked it was long, aimless and pointless.

Our attacking game was non existenet in the last 160 minutes of rugby we have not actually created one not one clear cut trying scoring chance.

I won't even bother naming a team for next week because I honestly believe if the Blacks come out with hte right attitude then they will put 50 on us before half time.

I would suggest that not only are you not giving Samoa credit for how they played and for the decent/good team that they are, but you are also looking on 'dark days' with rose tinted glasses and have assumed that after a few Grand Slams that Wales deserve to walk over teams like Samoa. The fact is that all teams are improving in world international rugby. The NH (middle teams) are getting closer to the big 3 SH side (NZ excepted perhaps) and the so called "minnows" are getting closer or are now on a par with the middle teams. Perhaps you need to take a step back and give credit to other nations rather than just come on here and slate your own team or walk away from the TV. Please have some humility!

[bedfordwelsh]

yappy,

Not another glorious defeat again against NZ please

[Janecory]

Quite a few of Halfpenny's 'breaks' seem to come from him falling over as he's about the get tackled.

Also I don't know why people are talking about the starting team for the Lions. That will be decided on tour. All pre-tour form does is get you there in the first place.

I have also noticed him slipping over in every game he plays in.

[ChequeredJersey]

He does slip a bit. Was it Bluesman or Maesteg who said it might be because of the Blues'pitch?

[Seagultaf]

Where was the welsh game-plan. Where was it last week? You'd think we'd have learned how to play the Islanders by now. We were so loose and played into Samoa's hands. When you think weve only scored a length of the field interception try. We have serious problems controlling a game and you just knew that Priestland would struggle. I thought that in particular, Ryan Jones was awful. He was a liability, we can't get over the gain-line and gave away points with needless penalties. Also, Bradley Davies? What's that about?
You have to question what on earth Rob Howley is doing. We were all taken in by the training camp in Spala. Well we seen to now be struggling towards the ends of games. We can't argue. We lost 3 tries to 1. A well deserved win for Samoa. I hope that Roger ( all is well with welsh rugby) Lewis is sitting a little bit more uncomfortably tonight!

I don't think it's so much the game plan but more a lack of intensity. In Rugby, and especially at this level, you have to earn the right to implement your gameplan.

Totally agree honeymonster, you have to ear the right to spread the ball, until Wales forwards start fronting up they could have Gregan and Carter at halfback and it would not make a difference. Missing Adam Jones and Lydiate badly, the rest need to grow a pair and get stuck in next week or a trouncing is on the cards.

[bedfordwelsh]

Irish,

Not at all and after the 80s and 90s and also having played the game for 30 odd years myself and have lost against sides we should have beaten I never take any team for granted.

But the fact remains we were shocking, if we had shown some intent and created chances but still lost then fair enough but we haven't created one single chance in two games. I can't actually remember us threatening either the Samoan or the Argentinian try line.

Our scrum came off second best tonight by some considerable to a team not renonwed for the set piece play and yes I know all the Pacific sides have improved in that area.

[ChequeredJersey]

Also well done Samoa and commiserations Wales. I'm sure you'll turn it around and though I think the Autumn won't get easier, any gloating English fans worry me in that I feel they might be setting us up for a fall in the 6N

[yappysnap]

yappy,

Not another glorious defeat again against NZ please

Surely you'd prefer the players to show some balls in a glorious tight defeat then a 60+ spanking though?

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