Wales vs Samoa KO 19:30 Fri 16th Nov - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

WALES V Samoa

Venue: Millennium Stadium Cardiff Date: Friday, 16 November Kick-off: 19:30 GMT

Coverage: Live on BBC One Wales & online; live on S4C; live commentary on BBC Radio Wales & online; live commentary on Radio Cymru

Seeing as no one has started a thread yet I thought I would.

Enjoy the discussion.

Leigh Halfpenny
Alex Cuthbert
Ashley Beck
Jamie Roberts
George North
Dan Biggar
Mike Phillips
Paul James
Richard Hibbard
Aaron Jarvis
Bradley Davies
Ian Evans
Ryan Jones (Capt)
Justin Tipuric
Toby Faletau

REPLACEMENTS:
Ken Owens, Gethin Jenkins, Scott Andrews, Luke Charteris, Sam Warburton, Tavis Knoyle, Rhys Priestland, Scott Williams

Samoa:
F Autagavaia (Northland)
P Perez (Eastern Province)
G Pisi (Northampton)
P Williams (Stade Francais)
D Lemi (Worcester, captain)
T Pisi (Suntory)
K Fotuali'i (Ospreys)
S Taulafo (Wasps)
O Avei (Bordeaux-Begles)
C Johnston (Toulouse)
D Leo (Perpignan)
T Paulo (North Harbour)
O Treviranus (London Irish)
M Fa'asavalu (Harlequins)
T Tuifua (Newcastle)

Replacements: T Paulo (Clermont Auvergne), V Afatia (Agen), J Johnston (Harlequins), F Lemalu (Mont de Marsan), T Fomai (Hawke's Bay), J Su'a (Tasman), J Leota (Sale), R Lilomaiava (Laulii).

[Irishhoneymonster]

Irish,

Not at all and after the 80s and 90s and also having played the game for 30 odd years myself and have lost against sides we should have beaten I never take any team for granted.

But the fact remains we were shocking, if we had shown some intent and created chances but still lost then fair enough but we haven't created one single chance in two games. I can't actually remember us threatening either the Samoan or the Argentinian try line.

Our scrum came off second best tonight by some considerable to a team not renonwed for the set piece play and yes I know all the Pacific sides have improved in that area.

Yes I understand that Bedford but what I am saying is that you actually have experienced this before with you beloved Welsh side in the 80's and 90's. It's just that it was easier for you to take it then because you were almost more expecting it in some ways. My point is that success has made it more difficult to take but it is really just a case of having a level head and some humility and respecting the fact that the better team won on the day. Believe me, I sat through the Irish durge during the late 80's and through the 90's and in the last 10 years I began to not only hope, but expect. At the same time I will never walk away from Ireland because I have been through those bad times before and I accept that others are improving and things are cyclical at the end of the day. Having said all that I will moan and groan til the cows come home because this is now a professional sport and I believe Ireland are above what they are showing at the moment

[mbernz]

The best all round performances I've seen from Halfpenny have been on the wing, when he's looking to beat 1 or 2 players out wide and charge towards the line. He can beat players and make ground from deep at FB, but I don't think he's as good at bringing others into play to make the most of those breaks, which is what the top FBs excel at. In terms of Lions selection I also think there are other FB options that are better at popping up and breaking into the line on sweetly timed runs. I'd like to see him tour, but I'd want him gunning for a wing spot rather than FB.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Interesting piece here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/09/wales-warren-gatland-argentina

"Warren has been involved," said Rob Howley, the interim head coach in
Gatland's absence. "He is looking after Wales for the New Zealand and
Australia games and the selection in the first two weeks impacts on
that. He does not come to training and he will not be at the game on
Saturday, but I speak to him every day and had discussions with him
before the team to face Argentina was picked."

[glamorganalun]

At the game tonight and thought not a good start with missed tackles by both props and Cuthbert. The lost of Dan Bigger ended the match as a contest, Biggar was doing well until he took a cheap shot similar to that Adam Jones suffered for the lions. It looked like he had stitches above his eye and his arm in a sling after the match (and R Hibbard also arm in a sling).

I thought Tipuric had a good game he made a lot of tackles and turned over ball, maybe you see a different game when you are at the match. The line out was a mess and the scrum was poor in the second half, I don't know what is wrong with Faletau he was not in the game the other two back row forwards were working hard, Faletau spilling the ball after being hit by the smallest man in the Samoa team.

Preistland helped turn the game for Samoa everybody around me screamed nooooo when he booted the ball with 4 men outside him, made even worse the ball going dead (leading to a penalty why )is he in the team, and his other play was dire.

I think Wales should put up the white flag next week if this is the standard, they were advertising Aust tickets on the large screens at £60 a shot, any takers?

[Pot Hale]

Interesting piece here
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/nov/09/wales-warren-gatland-argentina

"Warren has been involved," said Rob Howley, the interim head coach in
Gatland's absence. "He is looking after Wales for the New Zealand and
Australia games and the selection in the first two weeks impacts on
that. He does not come to training and he will not be at the game on
Saturday, but I speak to him every day and had discussions with him
before the team to face Argentina was picked."

= if I'm going down on this ship, the captain is gonna be on board too.

[gavstar]

just re run the game.......poor sod biggar , he tried bloody hard, so did hibbard and roberts in defence.tipps tried too, but too much on 1/2ps shoulders, he was again our player, but still not enough, just gone ,we are gone.

rhys priestland is surely now out of the squad, has to be.for gods sake if biggars not fit for nz, ANYBODY BUT PRIESTLAND.

[bedfordwelsh]

Biggars injury looked a nasty one and also looked a bit of a cheap shot so if he is out then Priestland will be on the bench at least with Hook starting.

My view hasn't changed since last night, we were directionless, aimless, didn't seem motivated.

I was sat post end where Samoa scored their 1st try and no one (captain or not) gathered the players around and laid the law down there just seemed nothing there.

I know the Welsh players and management swear by these Polish training camps but I think this last one was one to far and whilst the players may be gym fit they certainly didn't look fresh and sharp ready for a game which they knew was going to be physical.

[samuraidragon]

Most likely the management will continue to start Priestland. He's been poor for a good while now, but that won't matter. Gareth Cooper all over again.

[Luckless Pedestrian]

I said after the Argentina game that any changes in personnel for the Samoa game would only make so much difference if the gameplan remained the same. Lo and behold...

Just how easy do we want to make it for the opposition? All we did last night (when we weren't kicking away the ball) was play one-up rugby. There was no support play whatsoever, no threat of an offload in the tackle. The ballcarrier was going to take the ball into contact and go to ground. How was this ever going to get us anywhere? All Samoa needed to do was make their tackles.

Our ineptitude in the backs was a betrayal of our footballing heritage. Shouldn't it be second nature to a rugby player that when you have an overlap, you have to take the ball to the line and commit the defender before you pass? There we were, for the second match in a row, shipping the ball to the winger without committing the Samoan defence, allowing them to drift across to cover him. Clueless doesn't even cover it. These are fundamental skills. What have they been practising in training?

In a way, I'm glad that we lost, as it exposes again how uninspired and easy to contain our gameplan is. When we come up against teams who match us physically, we have no answer. We play no football whatsoever.

The team that played all the rugby won the match, just like last weekend. Samoa were great value for their win and they deserve all the plaudits they get. The team that wanted it more ended up winning. Who'd have thought it?

[senghenydd1913]

the only way to get Priestland to get his back line moving is for the opposition to play a naked Cathrine Jenkins at inside centre

[Guest]

This is the part that annoys me most, and which other people seem to be missing. By losing and attributing it to not playing very well people are criticising us for not giving the other team credit. But it's the fact that we can't create anything, even from broken play. It's not always because the opposition are stopping us playing. Shipping the ball all the way to the wing without drawing the defender is nothing to do with an awesome defence; it's also to do with not running good lines, not taking the ball to the line, not having the confidence to take people on. This is where it's more to do with us than the opposition. I've seen us make line breaks against the top teams in the world. The fact we can't do it at the moment IMO is to do with us and not the opposition. To make no line breaks in two games, with players of the quality of Jamie Roberts, Leigh Halfpenny, George North and Alex Cuthbert suggests that we're doing something wrong in attack.

Again, without disrespecting the opposition if we can do it against the top 3 (but still lose. Not suggesting otherwise) I think we should be able to do it against slightly weaker (but still very good, for the 'disrespect brigade') opposition. What has happened to George North's ability to run the ball out of his own 22 over half way in broken play? Where's the offloads? Haven't seen 1 yet.

In my opinion the simple reason why we're poor is that our tactics are to bludgeon the opposition but we're physically and mentally weaker. We therefore need to play to our strengths and thus keep it away from contact where possible. Playing other teams at their own game gets us injured, turned over, slow ball, lack of tempo, lack of opportunities and all of this dents out confidence and in all honesty makes us look tactically inept. We are NOT a power-game based team, so we shouldn't try to be one.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Yeah tbf on their day Samoa can beat anyone.

[george doors]

if we've ever needed shane williams it's now

I am afraid it would take more than SW to sort Wales problems out

[Guest]

You're right George, but I don't think we can underestimate how much we miss him. He was never confined to his wing and would always keep defences 'honest'. So much of our relative success over the last 8 years has been to do with players like him creating a bit of confusion on the park, either by cutting in off the wing and changing the angle of attack, popping up in midfield and being too pacy for centres or forwards stuck in the defensive line, and creating havoc in broken field play. We've replaced him with brutes and we now try to bash, but we're not bash minded! We lose the collisions. I think we need to unearth some wiry little runners to give us some more options. The top teams all have them, Israel Dagg for example. It just puts doubt in the defence and thus creates gaps everywhere. We're just not doing that since he left.

[Biltong]

Both Wales and Australia have changed the way they play, they look more and more like SA only they wear different colour jerseys.

[Casartelli]

Thought we did okay against a very physical Samoan team of seasoned pros.

Eight changes from the previous game, a sprinkling of test novices, Rhys "hoof it dead when there's a two man overlap" Priestland replacing Biggar (who played nicely until the cheapshot). An unsupervised Howley as coach is worth 7 points to any opposition.

Jamie Roberts (after Photo Louis had run over him to knock the rust off) looked like he's getting back to his world class best, Halfpenny is becoming the best kicker in the game, the team stood up to the physical onslaught (scrums aside) and even won some turnover ball.

All in all, a much more encouraging performance than the flaccid effort against Argentina.

The lack of test level strength in depth means that the absence of Adam, Lydiate and JD2 hits us hard.

[Guest]

Both Wales and Australia have changed the way they play, they look more and more like SA only they wear different colour jerseys.

I can sort of agree with that. Just that we haven't got the skill or physicality to play that sort of game! A poor mans SA, if you will!

[Guest]

Cas, re. Jamie Roberts. Getting back to his world class best in defence maybe, but not in attack. Is he too big now or something? Or are we not using him right? He needs to get the ball at pace to either run over someone or hit the shoulder. He just seems to get the ball when stopped or slow speed, and he's too big to accelerate well.

[bedfordwelsh]

What really made we laugh last night were the adverts being shown in the stadium towards the end of the game.

It was obvious to most in there that we were not going to win, hell could still be playing now and wouldn't have scored, but on the screens they were advertising the Australia game come and support your Nation etc.

Then at the bottom of the screen I noticed ' tickets still only £60' how the hell the WRU have the nerve to try and sell tickets at that price at the last two performances beggars belief

[Pal Joey]

bedford,
Over here, they were playing B&I Lions ads at the break in the France game last weekend. Quel embarrassment!

Nice logo btw, the Australian continent shaped like a lions head facing the Indian Ocean. Arnhem Land is the mane.

[HERSH]

I didn't see that one coming.

0-4?

You could put some spin on it and say its a Grand Slam of sorts!

[Hood83]

After the 6Ns I said I thought Wales were still playing a relatively 1 dimensional game focused on a crash-ball midfield going over their opposite numbers, along with a very decent and aggressive defence.

It was not a game based on clever kicking, intricate backs moves off first phase or keeping the opposition guessing by regularly changing the point of attack. It was also not a game based on 'heads up' rugby. In short, it absolutely was not the all-court game people were saying it was.

I was told I was talking rubbish. So consider this me saying I told you so.

To me, this Welsh team does not have a plan B. When they have their absolute best team available, they look very decent. When they don't, as they haven't the last two games, they look rudderless. If they can't compete up front and bludgeon in the backs, they're beaten. Compare with Oz for example and you see the difference in footballing skills and nous.

I think this Welsh team worked so hard on the areas it thought it was deficient i.e. forward fitness and power, that it forget its best attributes - broken field running, good lines and support play and a quick tempo.

Should say I still think the best team Wales can put out would beat England, but these autumn internationals have been a disaster.

[HERSH]

"Should say I still think the best team Wales can put out would beat England, but these autumn internationals have been a disaster. "

Thats alright then!

[Hood83]

Both Wales and Australia have changed the way they play, they look more and more like SA only they wear different colour jerseys.

Wales yes, but i can't agree on Australia. There is absolutely no way Wales and Australia play a similar game. And, in fact, South Africa's work at the breakdown is a million miles away from Wales'. They may have tried to copy them but I don't think it has been successful.

[Guest]

The All Blacks were going to put 50 points on us even if we were playing well, just because they are a level above everyone right now, I dont think I even want to see the game next week I see it being a very damage control type game where we'll just try and keep hold of the ball and not do anything.

[Hood83]

"Should say I still think the best team Wales can put out would beat England, but these autumn internationals have been a disaster. "

Thats alright then!

Was just making the point that I don't think we're exactly pulling up trees either.

[HERSH]

I have to say I thought it was very unsporting of the crowd not to clap the Samoan tries, I understand if it was a team above you in the IRB Rankings but a little island in the Pacific deserved a little well done for their quality tries that they scored.

We're rugby fans not football fans.

[Pot Hale]

I have to say I thought it was very unsporting of the crowd not to clap the Samoan tries, I understand if it was a team above you in the IRB Rankings but a little island in the Pacific deserved a little well done for their quality tries that they scored.

We're rugby fans not football fans.

Well Ireland is a little island in the Atlantic, could Welsh fans clap their tries too? They'd be ever so grateful...

[HERSH]

No danger of that Pot.

We're rugby fans not football fans.

[samuraidragon]

I think this Welsh team worked so hard on the areas it thought it was deficient i.e. forward fitness and power, that it forget its best attributes - broken field running, good lines and support play and a quick tempo.

.

Correct. They've definitely had the traditional "heads-up" skills coached out of them, and the players who embody that approach don't get picked (not in the right position, anyway) or have retired.

Also the coming of Jamie Roberts has made a huge difference to the way we play and think. Wales have never had this kind of crash-ball centre before, and he is top-class at what he does. But he is limited. Offloads, mispasses, grubbers & chips - fergeddit! But his quality makes him undroppable, so the backline gets built around his bulldozer approach. Add to that the weakest halfback combo we have put out in decades, and the Welsh way goes missing.

Upfront, we are much improved, but there are still lineout problems , and the absence/loss of form of Gethin , Adam and AWJ removes any superiority there.

[rodders]

I have to say I thought it was very unsporting of the crowd not to clap the Samoan tries, I understand if it was a team above you in the IRB Rankings but a little island in the Pacific deserved a little well done for their quality tries that they scored.

We're rugby fans not football fans.

Well Ireland is a little island in the Atlantic, could Welsh fans clap their tries too? They'd be ever so grateful...

We'd have to score some tries first.....

[HERSH]

A pub team could do that against Wales at the Mo.

[Hood83]

I think this Welsh team worked so hard on the areas it thought it was deficient i.e. forward fitness and power, that it forget its best attributes - broken field running, good lines and support play and a quick tempo.

.

Correct. They've definitely had the traditional "heads-up" skills coached out of them, and the players who embody that approach don't get picked (not in the right position, anyway) or have retired.

Also the coming of Jamie Roberts has made a huge difference to the way we play and think. Wales have never had this kind of crash-ball centre before, and he is top-class at what he does. But he is limited. Offloads, mispasses, grubbers & chips - fergeddit! But his quality makes him undroppable, so the backline gets built around his bulldozer approach. Add to that the weakest halfback combo we have put out in decades, and the Welsh way goes missing.

Upfront, we are much improved, but there are still lineout problems , and the absence/loss of form of Gethin , Adam and AWJ removes any superiority there.

The Roberts issue is a real problem I think, 100% agree with that. My concern is that England end up having a similar problem with Tuilagi. How about Scott Williams inside and Roberts 13? Williams seems a better footballer to me.

[Guest]

Williams is a better footballer, Roberts is there mainly for his defence

[bedfordwelsh]

How about Williams and JD Roberts' body must be in bits

[Luckless Pedestrian]

In defence of Rhys Priestland, on one of the pitifully rare occasions that we got into Samoa's 22, he spotted that Samoa were short on the left and he and George North broke went that way, calling for the switch; but either Mike Phillips or more likely one of the forwards went right, into contact, and we got turned over. Again.

As for him ignoring an overlap and kicking the ball dead, did you hear him say after the match that they'd been told not to play in their own half? Yes, he should have put it through the hands regardless, but when your confidence is low you're more likely to go with the coaches' instructions.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

I have to say I thought it was very unsporting of the crowd not to clap the Samoan tries, I understand if it was a team above you in the IRB Rankings but a little island in the Pacific deserved a little well done for their quality tries that they scored.

We're rugby fans not football fans.

Well Ireland is a little island in the Atlantic, could Welsh fans clap their tries too? They'd be ever so grateful...

We'd have to score some tries first.....

Also the Welsh would have to stop cheating to beat us. It's unseemly Rodders, practically plebeian. There's only one cheater allowed in international rugby and that's Richie McCaw. Or Bryce Lawrence if you listen to Biltong. No you're quite right Rodders, nobody does.

[bedfordwelsh]

LP,

And that brings us right back to the coaches and the tactics the insist on using, our kicking game is shocking and we need players on the pitch with the balls to say right this isn't working lets try something different.

After all the result couldn't be any worse than the tactics we are using now.

[samuraidragon]

In defence of Rhys Priestland, on one of the pitifully rare occasions that we got into Samoa's 22, he spotted that Samoa were short on the left and he and George North broke went that way, calling for the switch; but either Mike Phillips or more likely one of the forwards went right, into contact, and we got turned over. Again.

As for him ignoring an overlap and kicking the ball dead, did you hear him say after the match that they'd been told not to play in their own half? Yes, he should have put it through the hands regardless, but when your confidence is low you're more likely to go with the coaches' instructions.

No, I missed that, but it explains a lot. He is being selected because he robotically follows Howley's instructions.

[Portnoy's Complaint]

Doesn't Gatland get involved again for Wales for the next two games?

[anotherworldofpain]

I noticed again that the Welsh defensive line was "marginal" to say the best and they continue to align off side behind the referee. At the restart both teams were ahead of the kicker repeatedly and off-side from kicks was just a joke at one point the referee was screaming to a Samoan "stop! stop! stop! go back! you are offside!" pause "oh go on then". About 66 minutes if you want to check it on the replay. Just insane.

When will the assistant referees start calling this?

[dragonbreath]

Thought we did okay against a very physical Samoan team of seasoned pros.

Eight changes from the previous game, a sprinkling of test novices, Rhys "hoof it dead when there's a two man overlap" Priestland replacing Biggar (who played nicely until the cheapshot). An unsupervised Howley as coach is worth 7 points to any opposition.

Jamie Roberts (after Photo Louis had run over him to knock the rust off) looked like he's getting back to his world class best, Halfpenny is becoming the best kicker in the game, the team stood up to the physical onslaught (scrums aside) and even won some turnover ball.

All in all, a much more encouraging performance than the flaccid effort against Argentina.

The lack of test level strength in depth means that the absence of Adam, Lydiate and JD2 hits us hard.

You have to admire a man so commited to the glass half full attitude to life, and I would like to thank him for contributing. Personal attack removed

[Biltong]

There's only one cheater allowed in international rugby and that's Richie McCaw. Or Bryce Lawrence if you listen to Biltong. No you're quite right Rodders, nobody does.

Bryce didn't cheat, he was incompetent.

[Hookisms and Hyperbole]

There's only one cheater allowed in international rugby and that's Richie McCaw. Or Bryce Lawrence if you listen to Biltong. No you're quite right Rodders, nobody does.

Bryce didn't cheat, he was incompetent.

Damn you Biltong. I can't WUM about you if you are going to read it. You are like the Sauron of these boards, a big scary all seeing lighthouse.

[Biltong]

I am waaaaatching youuuuuuu.

[eirebilly]

Just re-watched the game. I still cant see how Biggar's injury is a cheap shot? Looks like a very good clear out to me, Biggar was just unfortunate.

[anotherworldofpain]

I though the "high hit" on 1/2p was a joke as well. Barnes was right to wave play on in that case.

[Casartelli]

Thought we did okay against a very physical Samoan team of seasoned pros.

Eight changes from the previous game, a sprinkling of test novices, Rhys "hoof it dead when there's a two man overlap" Priestland replacing Biggar (who played nicely until the cheapshot). An unsupervised Howley as coach is worth 7 points to any opposition.

Jamie Roberts (after Photo Louis had run over him to knock the rust off) looked like he's getting back to his world class best, Halfpenny is becoming the best kicker in the game, the team stood up to the physical onslaught (scrums aside) and even won some turnover ball.

All in all, a much more encouraging performance than the flaccid effort against Argentina.

The lack of test level strength in depth means that the absence of Adam, Lydiate and JD2 hits us hard.

You have to admire a man so commited to the glass half full attitude to life, and I would like to thank him for contributing. Personal attack removed

Personal attack removed????? What's that all about?

The glass half full analogy isn't a good one. What I was saying was, if you insist in analogizing it, is that against Samoa we filled the glass up with Sainsburys Cava, which is the best we could get our hands on, and the Cava did the best that anyone could expect of it.

With all our best players available (never easy in the modern game), we can occasionally pour a glass of, maybe, decent Krug, which can compete with all but the very best.

On its day.

[overlordofthewest]

Just re-watched the game. I still cant see how Biggar's injury is a cheap shot? Looks like a very good clear out to me, Biggar was just unfortunate.

That was my feeling too. He was unfortunate, that's it. I think some here are clutching at straws to defend the loss. The bottom line is we were beaten by a better side on the day. After all the excuses/reasons we lacked discipline and creativity. For those who thought Bigger was going to be a saviour they'd better think again. Trying to see the good in his performance is difficult, the backline was stagnant and from the off barring a couple of brief exceptions Samoa brought the game to us. We were beaten in the contact, on the floor, the set piece and in open play. Harping on about the odd high tackle or swinging arm wont change that and wouldn't have made a difference to the overall result i f they were seen to be illegal.
I never like losing, noone does but lets not make excuse after excuse for it. We lost, we got the tactics wrong, the players didn't play well and the opposition were better. We really need to sort some things out by next week or it's going to be a hiding.

[Guest]

To be fair I have only seen a couple of fans talking about it out of hundreds on here, no threads to my knowledge about it which usually happens with these sorts of things. Bit of perspective please.

I think the only reason Biggar's injury is causing any debate is that on one replay it shows elbow to face contact (which caused the cut). Whether it was leading with the elbow I guess is where the citing commissioner may have a look, but for me it was just unlucky.

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