Does Argentina prove how biased the AI's are to the SH teams???

by thebluesmancometh Mon 12 Nov 2012, 10:42 am

I'm not saying it is, but a point brought up time and time again that the tri (RC) nations battle hardens the SH nations and the NH teams generally go into the AI's rusty first game up.

I recently spoke to a professional (not player) within the game who states that the weeks between RC and AI's act as a perfect training camp and far exceeds the club comps of the non competitive Rabo, or even the HC.

When asked about the 6N and summer tours he claims the months between tournament and summer tours, in which the players return to club act as a deterent to performance.

In his opinion the only games where each nation is on an even keel is 6N's RC and WC's but not for cross sectional hemisphere teams. So the only way teams are competing from north to south fairly is at a world cup.

Now don't get me wrong, these are not my own opinions, I agree with parts and disagree with others of his theory, it seems in part a bit whingy after saturday for me, but I can see a number of points he makes.

Maybe the answer is re jigging the int season, haing the 6N in the summer and a club and international season? Maybe there isn't a problem and it is just whinging?

I know the title will draw in the certain few but lets keep it facts and opinions, and try to discuss it logically.

by MMaaxx Mon 12 Nov 2012, 11:38 am

Well....'battle hardened' from your perspective...from a SA point of view I prefer 'fatigued', 'injury depleted', 'unmotivated' etc etc etc

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 12 Nov 2012, 11:42 am

thebluesmancometh wrote:I'm not saying it is, but a point brought up time and time again that the tri (RC) nations battle hardens the SH nations and the NH teams generally go into the AI's rusty first game up. hardens, or cripples - wrt Australia's injuries

I recently spoke to a professional (not player) within the game who states that the weeks between RC and AI's act as a perfect training camp and far exceeds the club comps of the non competitive Rabo, or even the HC.
The Arg players were back at their French clubs in between

When asked about the 6N and summer tours he claims the months between tournament and summer tours, in which the players return to club act as a deterent to performance. Perhaps. You certainly see plenty of rust in evidence in the SH teams

In his opinion the only games where each nation is on an even keel is 6N's RC and WC's but not for cross sectional hemisphere teams. So the only way teams are competing from north to south fairly is at a world cup.

Now don't get me wrong, these are not my own opinions, I agree with parts and disagree with others of his theory, it seems in part a bit whingy after saturday for me, but I can see a number of points he makes.

Maybe the answer is re jigging the int season, haing the 6N in the summer and a club and international season? Maybe there isn't a problem and it is just whinging?there is a lot to be said for a global season, as long as you can get around weather-related issues - playing in the South of France in August and in Brisbane in January are both problematic heat-wise

I know the title will draw in the certain few but lets keep it facts and opinions, and try to discuss it logically.

by TJ1 Mon 12 Nov 2012, 11:43 am

no. what it proves is Argentina are underrated by some and Wales overrated by some. Look at the world rankings. Nothing much between Argentina and Wales but argentina are on an upward path right now.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 12 Nov 2012, 11:46 am

unmotivated is a very niaive word, theres no such thing as an unmotivated international player!!!

Also SA and Aus were depleted well before the AI's, and I can see the fatigue issue at the end of the tour but not game 1 after a few weeks of recovery and team training alone.

IMHO game 1 should be SH teams to throw away, by game 4 I can see how fatigue would set in a touch, but then SH teams do rotate players better, NZ for example will probably make 10 changes plus for Italy to work towards having the first team rested for Wales.

But like I said, I agree and disagree with the above, I would like to see the 6N played later in the summer and then go straight to the AI's with a few weeks off ala TRC!

by **Biltong** Mon 12 Nov 2012, 11:47 am

Bluesman, I don't know where this professional you spoke to gets his information.

The Springbok players played Currie Cup between the RC and the AI's.

Hence we lost another number of players to injuries.

Habana (in the final) Bekker (in the semi final)

Our guys only get together for the AI's a week before the tour.

by HERSH Mon 12 Nov 2012, 11:52 am

Maybe Wales should stop sitting in a freezer and get out on the practice pitches before playing a meaningful game of rugby.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 12 Nov 2012, 11:53 am

TJ

Who underrated Argy, I saw numerous welsh poster claim Argy would be tough, and that Wales selection was wrong. I admitted we had a 50/50 shot of winning as we never win an opening game and only beat argy 50% of the time or so.

Pete

Aus injuries are crazy, similar to Irelands IMHO, and the camp is struggling in general, wouldn't surpiriuse me to see Aus go home winless.

Argy players returned for 2 weeks before rejoining back up (those that play in france/England) and most of those players were given the first game to recover weren't they (not that is a fact) 2 weeks and rejoining is surely easier than months and climaxing a season before rejoining?

Summer tours I agree with you, neither NH or SH teams look great, either NH teams fall to peices or SH teams are too rusty to perform ala Aus v England/Scotland.

I think a global season is the answer (if there is even a question) and would love to see a summer 6N TRC run at the same time, then sandwiched by SH and NH tours, so an international season then a club season.

by TJ1 Mon 12 Nov 2012, 11:56 am

Theblues - by claiming the timing of the game gives argentina an advantage and thats why they won is disrespecting and underestimating them. Quite a few folk on here thought it would be an easy win and some are claiming its a terrible result for Wales.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 12 Nov 2012, 11:57 am

Biltong

The professional works for a welsh region and the IRB.

The point is the SA players were together for a tournament just weeks before that get together a week before the AI's, so the majority of the squad have the tactics and ethos nailed down already, whereas the NH teams havn't met up since June, have had an off season, club pre season and 2 differing competitions to contend with before international duty.

I see your point regarding injuries, but thats pretty equal from both sides as all nations have club commitments, an off season and pre season brings a whole new mindset to a player.

This issue is about the only I strongly agree with.

by HERSH Mon 12 Nov 2012, 11:58 am

thebluesmancometh wrote:
Summer tours I agree with you, neither NH or SH teams look great, either NH teams fall to peices or SH teams are too rusty to perform ala Aus v England/Scotland.

Bitter me thinks! Ale

by Big Mon 12 Nov 2012, 11:59 am

A lot of it depends on what end of the AIs you are at. 1st game I'd say the advantage is with the SH teams as they're a bit better prepared, but by the 3rd and 4th games it has to be in the NH favour. No real excuse for not having got back into the swing of things, but much fresher and probably fewer injuries) than the SH players.

That said, I do think our NH season needs rejigging. It's very disjointed with players switching every few games between international, domestic and European. Much more sensible structuring the season the SH way with the top players having Super XV - june tests, RC, november tests (with domestic comps going on during the international period for those that don't make the cut for whatever reason). I do think that the SH teams benefit from that continuity.

by **Biltong** Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:01 pm

Understood, however I don't agree with his assessment.

There is a month between the two test windows, players getting together a week before the series regardless of whether they were together a month ago or three months ago, doesn't change much in my opinion.

The reality is the SH players arrive in Europe after 10 months of hard gutwrenching rugby.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:02 pm

TJ

It is a terrible result for Wales, but I saw few honest predictions of big wins on here, most were saying 3-5 points to wales I beleive?!

I'm not underestimating Argentina when I say Wales are the better side, as I did not underestimate Aus when I said before and after the summer tour Wales had the better first team and squad.

IMHO Argentina underperformed and gave Wales too much credit, if they had performed as they did a few times in TRC they wouldve put 20 more points on Wales, their kicking game in the first half looked like they were playing a superior team (which they were) but that team was selected wrong, played the wrong game, and couldve been beaten by any tier 1/2 nation saturday.

So saying Wales is the superior side isn't underestimating Argentina, and it isn't overestimating wales, as saying Wales are superior to Samoa, do you think Samoa are thinking that, or do you think Samoa will think it's their turn to beat an underperforming Wales team.

by HERSH Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:06 pm

by thebluesmancometh Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:07 pm

I think the key Biltong is the off season, pre season and the new season, players switch off, and a different mindset is approached, I agree the first game should be all about the SH but the 4th should see the NH teams at least on par if not with the advantage.

Although don't get me wrong Wales, Irelands, Scotlands biggest problem is depth, we can't compete with SH Englands or Frances ability to bring in quality to replace quality, and if the NH decided to rejigg and play tour, 6N, tour I think France and England would emerge as world superpowers regularly.

by TJ1 Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:10 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:TJ

It is a terrible result for Wales, but I saw few honest predictions of big wins on here, most were saying 3-5 points to wales I beleive?!

I'm not underestimating Argentina when I say Wales are the better side, as I did not underestimate Aus when I said before and after the summer tour Wales had the better first team and squad.

IMHO Argentina underperformed and gave Wales too much credit, if they had performed as they did a few times in TRC they wouldve put 20 more points on Wales, their kicking game in the first half looked like they were playing a superior team (which they were) but that team was selected wrong, played the wrong game, and couldve been beaten by any tier 1/2 nation saturday.

So saying Wales is the superior side isn't underestimating Argentina, and it isn't overestimating wales, as saying Wales are superior to Samoa, do you think Samoa are thinking that, or do you think Samoa will think it's their turn to beat an underperforming Wales team.

You are vastly overestimating Wales and underestimating and disrespecting Argentina. I think argentina are a better team than Wales - and the recent results bear this out. the only reason Wales are above in the rankings is the delay in positions changing as results are counted for years.

by **Biltong** Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:12 pm

I am starting to think our depth isn't so great either.

When you look at our likely team this coming weekend vs Scotland, and the fact that Beast is going home, Jannie has an ankle injury, we might end up with a forward pack with only one survivor from last year.

Then our backline is also missing half their first choice players.

The replacements are not all bad, but having 10 of your startes injured severely exposes depth.

by MMaaxx Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:12 pm

I can imagine the moaning and excuses if NH teams had to travel the distances and through the timezones that the SH teams manage through the Super 15 and TRC.

Seriously!

I think this well informed 'professional' needs to look closer to home for the reasons losses occur.

SA could field a match winning side (equal and in some ways better than the current touring team) with injured / unavailable players.

by GunsGerms Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:15 pm

It probably does benefit the SH teams slightly as it is quite close to the rugby championship. while the summer tours arent close enough to the 6n to have any bearing really.

Argentina are a very good team but I do think that this was a very bad result for wales and that they should be good enough to beat Argentina at home regardless of being undercooked or not.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:19 pm

Biltong

I feel for the injury lists that you Oz and Ireland all have at the present, but if the day comes that Wales lose 10+ starting international players you'll see how bad our depth really is, Shane and Marty Williams may come out of retirement and I might get a game Laugh

Sadly your weaker players are still on par with the majority of our first team squad!!

by OzT Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:21 pm

Biltong, I wouldn't worry mate. I know the Wallabies who love a back up 3rds pack that you guys have, for our 1st up pack!!

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:22 pm

HERSH wrote:

This is an interesting discussion Hersh, if that's the most intelligent thing you've got to add go play somewhere else

by MMaaxx Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:25 pm

When England toured SA last alot was written how England had there best chance in ages of beating SA in the first test as the Boks had a new coach, essentially a new team etc while England were not far out of the 6N.

I guess it depends on what you place more value in: 1) Having a rested side near full strength having last played together a couple fo months before, or 2) Having a team at 50% capacity in terms of injuries, at the end of 10 months of seriously tough rugby and travel

by **Notch** Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:25 pm

I do think the Southern Hemisphere season is better structured than ours for getting performances at international season, but when you consider the problems Argentina have had with player release compared to the other SH sides I wouldn't say they had any advantage over Wales in that respect.

Like Wales, their best players are based in France and there is much wrangling over player release. These guys are pretty much on the NH season and the Rugby Championship means their pre-season and off-season is quite disrupted.

In the weeks between the RC and AIs Argentina would have had no access to their best players.

by Geordie Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:35 pm

I honestly think the Welsh fans expected a walkover....so they overestimate their team and underestimate the Argentininans.

I even argued on another thread...why would it be a banana skin if wales lost...because Argentina are a GOOD side.

Wales got beaten by a better side...and many of their fans on here cant hack it so its all sour grapes. Poor show.

Its like many England fans lauding it becuase we put away a poor fiji side.

The Welsh should get better these AI's...but surely the best responce is to put your hands up say "hey you know what we lost to a better side...lets hope we play better next game"

I hope Wales dont underestimate Samoa.... Wink

by thebluesmancometh Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:37 pm

Not having access to french based players for a few weeks, and not having access to any players for a few months is a big difference though, and the biggest differewnce is what the players have been through since last meet, Argy players went back to France for a few weeks, were mostly rested initial return week, and played a game or 2 to stay sharp, whereas the other nations players went through an off season, pre season then and new club regime changes etc, new ideas, trains of thought etc...

In wales case selection was so wrong because Jenkins isn't starting at Toulon, Rees not starting at Scarlets, Warbs and Roberts havn't completed a match of rugby since god knows when, Knoyle is arguably 2nd choice at Scarlets. Players who arent ready to compete at club level asked to do so at international level, Phillips left out because he didn't arrive at training till late, but Jenkins over James despite the same problem. Thats the reason Wales lost sat IMHO, little to do with this thread though so I'll leave that there.

I understand the comparison of NH based players but IMHO all 4 RC teams should be winning the first game up.

by Jimpy Mon 12 Nov 2012, 12:41 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:I honestly think the Welsh fans expected a walkover....so they overestimate their team and underestimate the Argentininans.

I even argued on another thread...why would it be a banana skin if wales lost...because Argentina are a GOOD side.

Wales got beaten by a better side...and many of their fans on here cant hack it so its all sour grapes. Poor show.

Its like many England fans lauding it becuase we put away a poor fiji side.

The Welsh should get better these AI's...but surely the best responce is to put your hands up say "hey you know what we lost to a better side...lets hope we play better next game"

I hope Wales dont underestimate Samoa....

I honestly think that they didn't. Argentina have been tough to beat anywhere for years now. The simple fact is that Wales' gameplan was limited and poorly executed.

by Geordie Mon 12 Nov 2012, 1:05 pm

Jimpy,

I know that...but the reaction to the deafet has been very disrespectful...."Threads titled Wales worst performance ever etc etc...."

How about erm...Well done Argentina...they made it really tough for us today...

by HERSH Mon 12 Nov 2012, 1:12 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
HERSH wrote:

This is an interesting discussion Hersh, if that's the most intelligent thing you've got to add go play somewhere else

It sort of says it all, you can't really debate with someone who believes Wales were the better TEAM even though they were well beaten at home, anyway I don't think there is anything wrong with using a smiley provided by this website, if there is then maybe you should only be able to post a Smiley once you have entered some text!

by **Notch** Mon 12 Nov 2012, 1:20 pm

Gordy, have Welsh fans really been surprised by this?

I wasn't surprised that Argentina won, I predicted it. Argentina are a good team. I also expect them to knock over Ireland unless we somehow improve.

I don't think Argentina are miles ahead of Wales, the two teams are fairly evenly matched in terms of the quality of players they have and they were just sharper on the day. Argentina have always had the same amount of talent as the Irelands and Wales' of this world, they were just handicapped by not having regular competition and player access issues. Now they are in with the big boys in the RC we better get used to needing to be on top of our game to beat them. Wales played beneath their potential.

by whocares Mon 12 Nov 2012, 1:32 pm

Point well made by Notch : the difference is that now Argentina has been enjoying a decent preparation that started just before TRC (in miami ?) which has seriously helped to improve the cohesion within the squad. in the past they used to play 6 games a year and that wasnt enough. now they can reach their potential.
On the other hand you cant compare the argentine player fitness level to the other SH ones as none play in the S15, curry cup etc and are therefore less injury prone come november.

by Kingshu Mon 12 Nov 2012, 1:40 pm

If Argentina were in the six nations, they were always around a mid table team, but now they are in the RC, in a few years I can see them improve that if in six nations they would be title contenders most years.

If Argentina were to gain Super XV franshises and Bring the best players back, and set up proper acamadies and path ways for player progress, I could see in 10-15 years time us talking about how the Northern Hemp teams are to close the gap of the big 4 southern hemp teams, as they will dominate 1-4th in world rankings

by HERSH Mon 12 Nov 2012, 1:57 pm

I don't believe Argentina would be a mid table team, IMO they would be contenders straight away if they were in the 6 nations, lets face it on their day they're a match for anyone, only a fool would right them off and say they're canon fodder.

by GunsGerms Mon 12 Nov 2012, 2:14 pm

Why would Wales underestimate Argentina when the head to head record isnt great but is 9-5 in Wales favour. Its not like they have never lost to Argentina.

Wales are grand slam champions and 4th in the world cup so they were entitled to be favorites and confident going into the match especially given the good preparation beforehand that has worked well for them in the past. They have good players in all positions and good management and the match was in Cardiff so they really should have won but these things happen.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 12 Nov 2012, 2:26 pm

I don't think the resulyt is the shock that many people are reacting to, but certainly the manner of defeat!!!

Wales were massively below par, and IMHO Argentina werent at their best either!!!

I disagree with most that Argentina have the same squad ability as the 6N teams, they have certainly had the grunt and pack but lacked quality out wide, of which they showed plenty of in the 2nd half after they grew confidence from the first.
First half was typical Argentina, they slowed ball, nicked posession and kicked the leather off the ball, until they realised Wales werent in the game so why play like they are, I honestly think if Argentina turned up and decided to play from the off they wouldve put another 20 points on us... easy.

Argentina were clearly the better team on the day, and have learned loads by being involved in the RC, but for me the key word everyone is using is 'sharper'

They are in their stride when Wales were stuck in first gear, and it's why I have to agree with part of the point that the AI's are difficult for NH teams generally.

Why anyone keeps mentioning disrespect is beyond me, that is ridiculous when we barely beat Argy pre world cup, they beat Scotland and shouldve beaten England comfortably, noone said anything about big wins at all!!

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 12 Nov 2012, 2:36 pm

Really I think its grossly unfair that after a long arduous globe trotting tour schedule they get to take a mere 13 hour flight up here and adapt ( again) to a new time zone over the course of a week, switching from summer to winter conditions. Really with all that adavantage its amazing that a team like Australia could turn up jaded broken and disinterested for their first game.
And think of the massively unfair advantage SA had when they came up as world and 3N chumps (and got tooled by club sides)

Obviously when Wales went to Aus they were tired after a long hard season, that just wasnt fair.

The Earth is definatly weighted in favour of the excuses.

by dummy_half Mon 12 Nov 2012, 2:41 pm

GunsGerms wrote:Why would Wales underestimate Argentina when the head to head record isnt great but is 9-5 in Wales favour. Its not like they have never lost to Argentina.

Wales are grand slam champions and 4th in the world cup so they were entitled to be favorites and confident going into the match especially given the good preparation beforehand that has worked well for them in the past. They have good players in all positions and good management and the match was in Cardiff so they really should have won but these things happen.

Argentina are clearly a good team, about the same level as the better teams in the 6Ns (I don't think there's much to choose in quality between France, England, Wales and Ireland, with Scotland closing the gap now - basically the results come down to performance on the day). On Saturday they played rather well, especially in the final quarter, while Wales performed poorly by their standards from last year (although on a level with their summer tour performances).

I think the performance from Wales highlighted a few issues:
1 - While the starting XV is pretty strong, there were issues either with selection or strength in depth (not sure which) - losing Roberts and AW-J to injuries in the first half exposed the weakness on the bench.

2 - The tactics have become a bit predictable and one-dimensional (and screw up the shape of the team). A few years ago, Wales played a good off-loading game between the forwards and backs that put players in to space beyond the defence, but now the tactics seem to be limited to getting one of the big backs to charge into midfield off the 10's inside shoulder, get knocked down and fail to recycle quickly. Once Roberts went off, the main midfield ball carriers appeared to be the wingers, which just makes the team play far too narrow and lack pace on the outside.

3 - Good management? Maybe when Gatland is there, but Saturday and the summer tour suggests that Howley is out of his depth yet as the head coach. No evolution of tactics, and a failure to get the best out of some players (I like Matthew Rees as a player, but he was AWOL on Saturday, as were several others).

by MajorRoadWorks Mon 12 Nov 2012, 2:48 pm

TJ wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:TJ

It is a terrible result for Wales, but I saw few honest predictions of big wins on here, most were saying 3-5 points to wales I beleive?!

I'm not underestimating Argentina when I say Wales are the better side, as I did not underestimate Aus when I said before and after the summer tour Wales had the better first team and squad.

IMHO Argentina underperformed and gave Wales too much credit, if they had performed as they did a few times in TRC they wouldve put 20 more points on Wales, their kicking game in the first half looked like they were playing a superior team (which they were) but that team was selected wrong, played the wrong game, and couldve been beaten by any tier 1/2 nation saturday.

So saying Wales is the superior side isn't underestimating Argentina, and it isn't overestimating wales, as saying Wales are superior to Samoa, do you think Samoa are thinking that, or do you think Samoa will think it's their turn to beat an underperforming Wales team.

You are vastly overestimating Wales and underestimating and disrespecting Argentina. I think argentina are a better team than Wales - and the recent results bear this out. the only reason Wales are above in the rankings is the delay in positions changing as results are counted for years.

On this and your other post earlier. So that means that England are also on the same level as Wales, as they are around the same IRB ranking score.

Also "You are vastly overestimating Wales" 2012 6 Nations GRAND SLAM Champions. "I think argentina are a better team than Wales - and the recent results bear this out." Over last 10 games Wales won 5, lost 5 (50%), Argentina Won 3, lost 7 (30%). "the only reason Wales are above in the rankings is the delay in positions changing as results are counted for years" like England you mean. Out of last 10 games England won 5, lost 5 (50%).

Argentina are "becoming" a world force, but they are not there yet. On Saturday, they showed up a lack lustre and pathetic Welsh performance, and they deserved their win. They deserved to put a bigger score on Wales. However, one game alone does not make one side better or worse than the other.

Try and not write Wales off just yet, that's a good boy... and when you talk about respect, it goes both ways.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 12 Nov 2012, 2:53 pm

dummy

disagree with every word!!

Roberts and AWJ were the weakness, the fact Howley decided not to put a lock on the bench was the weakness.

Phillips, Hibbard, and Tipuric came off the bench and were far better than the 'first teamers'!!

The tactics were never surrounding an offload game, they were based on bullying up the middle with big ball carriers, keeping the forwards tied in the wide channels by constantly going blind then opening up to allow the wingers 1 on 1's.

I'm not sure why everyone thinks argentina played well, they were very poor first half, as poor as wales, and kicked poorly!!!
They grew in confidence as the game went on and Wales offered nothing, and by the time changes were made they were buoyed by a lead and had the adrenalin to hold on last 20. As good a team as they are the games in TRC proved they were still a 60 minute team when pressured from the off, which wales didn't.

Decent Argie performance, poor wales one. Both can do better (unless Howleys in charge and selecting then wales probably can't)

by Morgannwg Mon 12 Nov 2012, 4:40 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Jimpy,

I know that...but the reaction to the deafet has been very disrespectful...."Threads titled Wales worst performance ever etc etc...."

How about erm...Well done Argentina...they made it really tough for us today...

Well it was the worst performance in 2 years. If you think back to the world cup warm-ups, the world cup, the 6 Nations, the Aus tour; that turns out to be an absolute fact. And we aren't just looking at the result (which we are bitterly disapointed with) we are looking at the overall performance during that game too. I haven't met anyone who hasn't congratulated Argentina on the win and admitted they were the better team. Even the one-eyed WRU facebook subscribers came in their thousands and admitted it. I guess it's selective reading, any chance to slag off the Welsh, if you based it on fact it would be less boring.

by Geordie Mon 12 Nov 2012, 4:50 pm

I guess it's selective reading, any chance to slag off the Welsh, if you based it on fact it would be less boring. .

No mate...far from it...just going from what i have seen...likewise England are suddenly world class because we beat fiji...really??? Erm

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 12 Nov 2012, 5:05 pm

Just out of curiosity, why is it when Wales win a Grand Slam they slip off the rails? Early days yet but four losses in a row after an impressive 6N showing, it doesn't get any easier for Wales with Manu Samoa, Australia and NZ to come. That's before the 6N starts.

I don't see this rusty or battered argument. November has seen SA, NZ and Australia play top flight rugby since February with really no respite. I think it is too much to ask of a player to play both club or provincial rugby AND test rugby. You need some time off not just physically but also mentally. The AIs are no different to the June tests. The excuses for not winning on the other hand seem quite different.

by TJ1 Mon 12 Nov 2012, 5:09 pm

Morgannwg wrote:......... I haven't met anyone who hasn't congratulated Argentina on the win and admitted they were the better team .......................

several on here and on this thread

for example

GunsGerms

Argentina are a very good team but I do think that this was a very bad result for wales and that they should be good enough to beat Argentina at home regardless of being undercooked or not.

by Morgannwg Mon 12 Nov 2012, 5:11 pm

TJ wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:......................and admitted they were the better team. .......................

several on here and on this thread

by TJ1 Mon 12 Nov 2012, 5:14 pm

Morgannwg wrote:
TJ wrote:
Morgannwg wrote:......................and admitted they were the better team. .......................

several on here and on this thread

Sorry - the snipping of the quote means some meaning is lost. Quite a few posters on here are claiming Wales arethe better team.

thebluesmancometh wrote:TJ

............... I say Wales are the better side.......................
.......................

So saying Wales is the superior side isn't underestimating Argentina, and it isn't overestimating wales...............

by Morgannwg Mon 12 Nov 2012, 5:16 pm

GunsGerms is Irish so not sure I see your point? You're trying to make out that everyone thinks Argentina are a walkover right? Again here's the selective reading. Argentina won so I don't see how Wales are the better team. But if Arg are as good as everyone likes to make out then surely they would have won a single game in the RC.

by thebluesmancometh Mon 12 Nov 2012, 5:18 pm

Wales are the better team! Would England not be dissapointed by that performance against Oz? Would Ireland, or France? They are better teams who can be beaten by Argentina, but have the capabilities to outperform them at present!!

by thebluesmancometh Mon 12 Nov 2012, 5:19 pm

Argy not Oz sorry!!!

by Morgannwg Mon 12 Nov 2012, 5:24 pm

If that's the performance performed by Eng, Ire, Aus, France; then I guess they would be disapointed with a loss. We wouldn't hear them claiming they're the better team though.

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