Did New Zealand number 12 deliberately try to break Ryan Grants arm?

Right got alerted to this on twitter, if you watch the game from 7:20 to 7:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1lYm_gpQCo#t=19m57s New Zealand number 12, Ellison can be seen in the ruck, bending and manipulating Grants arm back seemingly in a bid to break it ala Calum Clark style
Visser's reacts and shoves Ellison away. Sadly it would appear that the touch judge missed it.
Thoughts people? Too late to cite?

I saw it. P*ssed me off. Like Thomson's punch and rake-no place in the game for that. Citing window has surely passed. Come on NZ, kick their @rses on the scoreboard. Much more satisfying than this shoite.

Is there not a highlight reel of it, I cannot remember the incident

wow didn't see it at the time but that does look really bad. could have been a really nasty injury. amazed nobody has brought that before the citing board

I can't believe this has got legs. Watch again, closely, as Ellison initially tries to get up he can't because the Scottish player has hold of his hand/wrist. The way Ellison uses his right hand looks like a reaction to this grabbing to try and get his left hand free (possibly in pain due to the Scottish player trying to break his thumb - see this is pretty easy). The upshot is that Ellison gets the dominant position and doesn't want to let go.
The more sinister play is Visser attecking Ellison's head.

Biltong wrote:Is there not a highlight reel of it, I cannot remember the incident

Here's a direct link to the incident watch number 12 closely https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1lYm_gpQCo#t=19m57s looks pretty damning to me

goneagain wrote:I can't believe this has got legs. Watch again, closely, as Ellison initially tries to get up he can't because the Scottish player has hold of his hand/wrist. The way Ellison uses his right hand looks like a reaction to this grabbing to try and get his left hand free (possibly in pain due to the Scottish player trying to break his thumb - see this is pretty easy). The upshot is that Ellison gets the dominant position and doesn't want to let go.
The more sinister play is Visser attecking Ellison's head.

yeah right, next you'll be accusing Strockosh of headbutting Adam Thomson's studs...

Tamati has form for this going back years, at the end of this clip he tries to break Inga Tuigamal's arm right off.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_TlqqbDSgQ

I think the way he turns and runs away as if he doesn't want to be seen is pretty damning too. A kiwi would normally stand up for himself if he feels he's been cheated or abused but he doesn't stay around or even look at the Scottish player. not conclusive I know but unusual

Thanks Glove, in my view Ellison is more guilty than Grant, but when they are both on their knees after diving for the ball, it is difficult to see whether they were both trying to take possession of the ball and whether their arms got entalngled because of that, their after it was clearly an arm wrestle.

However I don't think Ellison was trying to break his arm there, it was more to do with intimidation.

I could be wrong, but I don't think anything worse of it.

Cynical play to keep the player down/wind him up yes, trying to break the arm?? no chance

thebluesmancometh wrote:Cynical play to keep the player down/wind him up yes, trying to break the arm?? no chance

Exactly, the prop grabs his wrist to keep him there, but gets outmuscled by Ellison.

Pause the video at 7.21 as Ellison is on his hands and knees. Either his wrist is being held or he is suddenly wearing a white wristband.

He really looks like he's working Garnt's arm, big use of his shoulder.
Plus player reaction as other have pointed out is weird, he couldn't get out of there quick enough afterwards, and clearly Visser felt it was an attempted arm break

Gone

I'd say Ellison is running for his life when he sees Visser, he knows he's in the wrong and realises he may be in trouble so he scarpers

I don't think there is a lot to it and obviously neither did the players or they would have prompted the citing commissioner

Here's what Luke Mcalister tweeted about it, "Cheeky little bit of mma there @TamatiEllison #armbar"
https://twitter.com/McalisterLuke/status/267638034982375424

The movement on the arm i used to know as a key-lock. Won't break your arm, but it'll pop the shoulder out if applied with enough pressure and do a lot of soft tissue damage. That was deliberate, no doubt about it.

Really doesn't look good but Scotland didn't make an issue of it to the commisioner so I assume they thought it was a nothing incident.

Looks Frak disgusting from that clip though.

yappysnap wrote:Really doesn't look good but Scotland didn't make an issue of it to the commisioner so I assume they thought it was a nothing incident.

Looks Frak disgusting from that clip though.

There was no weight over his centre, you can roll out of it. Still no place for that on a Rugby pitch at all, there's plenty of Judo/MMA halls in this country to go do that in. Good on the Scots for citing this, that was pretty disgusting play.

The way Visser reacted would suggest that he heard a yell from Grant and rushed in to help his fellow player.

After the incident Ellison does hot foot it out of the picture.

I think the citing window is 48 hours; if so that won't be looked at.

I must be watching another incident. This talk of 'reaction', for me the most telling reaction is when Ellison grabs with his right hand when the 'wrestle' has already started. That looks like a fast, instinctive movement. As if reacting to pain. from then he gets a better grip on Grant than Grant had on him. They then go to ground again, I will concede that Ellison looks as though he wants to let him know who came out on top there. But as far as trying to do serious injury, well I think it looks worse than it is because as this is going on others have joined the ruck and he is pinned by his leg and has no option but to fall the way he did.

As for the scarpering, get serious, he gets a clip to the head from Visser ( I guess young Mr Glove will be starting a thread about that momentarily), who then gets Cory Jane in his face. As Ellison gets up he gets a couple of gentle nudges from Grant (who appears not to have noticed his own arm hanging by a single tendon) and a couple of other forwards. No reason to stand up for himself as there appears to be no incident to worry about. He even stops to pull his sock up FFS!

Justy a load of handbags.

Jeez I cant believe some of you guys, anyone would think it was a "chicken wing tackle".

aucklandlaurie wrote:
Jeez I cant believe some of you guys, anyone would think it was a "chicken wing tackle".

Haven't been caught in a chicken wing tackle, but i ahve been in a chicken wing and they reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaalllllllllly hurt!

This kind of event does bring on the argument of players getting cited for intent, what the Kiwi 12 did didn't actually achieve anything and didn't damage the scot, but leicester know that just a few inches more and a little more pressure can result in pretty major damage. Should players get cited for incidents that result in nothing but are contrary IMO to the game?

I will concede that Grant does initially have hold of Ellison but then he is not given a chance to let go as Ellison goes all Royce Gracie on him. I'm not one to call for bans as it's done and move on. Luckily no damage done.

I only added the word 'tackle", because I got the feeling that there are qiute a few on here that wouldnt know what I was talking about.

Me being one of them. I had to go and youtube it.

aucklandlaurie wrote:
I only added the word 'tackle", because I got the feeling that there are qiute a few on here that wouldnt know what I was talking about.

Since the rise of MMA (almost 20 years now since UFC1! ) i think a lot more pople are savvy to innocuous little joint locks and what-not. I've certainly noticed a lot more grapply style ruck clear outs since that time, or atleast become more salient to them.

With incidents like this where a player is trying to deliberately and illegally injure another opponent regardless of the outcome bans should be handed out. As Yappy points out, another few inches, or if Visser hadn't intervened, and Grant could have ended up like Rob Hawkins.

As in turns out Tamati Ellison is injured and will may miss the rest of the tour, at least that's the official line from the All Blacks...

Also just watched some 'chicken wing tackles' on youtube, and ohh dear accident waiting to happen there.

Looked like an attempted 'Calum' to me. Lucky for both players it didn't come off.

GLove39 wrote:With incidents like this where a player is trying to deliberately and illegally injure another opponent regardless of the outcome bans should be handed out. As Yappy points out, another few inches, or if Visser hadn't intervened, and Grant could have ended up like Rob Hawkins.

As in turns out Tamati Ellison is injured and will may miss the rest of the tour, at least that's the official line from the All Blacks...

Yes he has a "sore toe".

aucklandlaurie wrote:

GLove39 wrote:With incidents like this where a player is trying to deliberately and illegally injure another opponent regardless of the outcome bans should be handed out. As Yappy points out, another few inches, or if Visser hadn't intervened, and Grant could have ended up like Rob Hawkins.

As in turns out Tamati Ellison is injured and will may miss the rest of the tour, at least that's the official line from the All Blacks...

Yes he has a "sore toe".

"We have had scans on both of them and Tamati has a sore toe - he has some ligament damage on the side of the toe which is a little unusual so we are just going to give ourselves a few days now we know what it is to see how quickly it settles down."
Is this a ruse to means of remove him from the team, and therefore avoid causing an issue or highlighting this incident?

He's also got a scratch over his left eye.

GLove39 wrote: or if Visser hadn't intervened, and Grant could have ended up like Rob Hawkins.

Have you even watched it properly? Ellison is already getting up with one hand away from Grant, who by then is free to get up.

Anyway, good discussing this with you. Will be interesting to see what guys down south think about it. Thanks for making me go back and examine the footage closely.

There is no "incident" here. There was nothing said by anyone involved until an off the cuff comment was made on Twitter.

If a player seriously thought someone was trying to break his arm it would be raised immediately with officials just like any other serious incident.

goneagain wrote:

GLove39 wrote: or if Visser hadn't intervened, and Grant could have ended up like Rob Hawkins.

Have you even watched it properly? Ellison is already getting up with one hand away from Grant, who by then is free to get up.

Anyway, good discussing this with you. Will be interesting to see what guys down south think about it. Thanks for making me go back and examine the footage closely.

My bad, fair point re Visser.
However as for the incident itself still think Ellison tried to break Grants arm. Also if by guys down south you mean Kiwis, you might be interested in what Luke Mcalister made of the incident https://twitter.com/McalisterLuke/status/267638034982375424

32-24 Maori get a yellow too

My bad wrong thread

AFewTooManyKnocks wrote:There is no "incident" here. There was nothing said by anyone involved until an off the cuff comment was made on Twitter.

If a player seriously thought someone was trying to break his arm it would be raised immediately with officials just like any other serious incident.

After pushing Jane away Visser appears to trun round to where the touch judge would be shouting something. Also I don't remember any players speaking out about the Calum Calrk / Rob Hawkins incident...

Yappysnap

Are you doing that on purpose? You've done that somewhere else as well. I like your comedy style

GLove39 wrote:

goneagain wrote:

GLove39 wrote: or if Visser hadn't intervened, and Grant could have ended up like Rob Hawkins.

Have you even watched it properly? Ellison is already getting up with one hand away from Grant, who by then is free to get up.

Anyway, good discussing this with you. Will be interesting to see what guys down south think about it. Thanks for making me go back and examine the footage closely.

My bad, fair point re Visser.
However as for the incident itself still think Ellison tried to break Grants arm. Also if by guys down south you mean Kiwis, you might be interested in what Luke Mcalister made of the incident https://twitter.com/McalisterLuke/status/267638034982375424

Not many Kiwis would take much notice of anything Luke McAllister says..

mckay1402 wrote:Yappysnap

Are you doing that on purpose? You've done that somewhere else as well. I like your comedy style

Haha, kind of like that moment in the movies when a stranger wanders into the saloon mid fight

His Kimura lock could use some work but looking at that he has potential, if he's reading I will train him or Grant if he wants a rematch. I don't know things often look bad/worse on video than on the field. Scotland have not gone to the citing commissioner and there was very little reaction from them during the game so I'd say it isn't as bad as we think. Still takes away from a great game though.