Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[mystiroakey]

First topic message reminder :

Mac your beiing an idiot there mate.. NBS at best is on some pedantic mission at the moment- at best arguing symatics..

Don't be a plank. There's nothing semantic in what I've said. You always say I'm arguing semantics when you don't get what I'm talking about!
You're right re. the spaghetti, butter and TK. It's not great but it's not as bad, nutritionally, as is being made out. As I said before, if they ate that occasionally, what's the issue? If they eat it every day? That's another matter.

its disgusting- the family is overweight.. they should not be eating that sort of food ever! the fact that they even ''like' that sort of food is a big problem.

the mother said she was raised on it!

That is there stock spaghetti dish!

Jamie oliver needs to be sent to that family- its an emergency i tell ya!

[JAS]

So what's the take on Armstrongs confession then?

[gaelgowfer]

Strange situation really. Obviously he's getting paid handsomely for his 'confession' but surely this has left him wide open to 'money back' claims?

[mystiroakey]

Its a sad story but at least he has admitted it..

After all this saville business I gotta admit what lance did seems pretty minor to me..

I think the majority of the field took drugs anyway and he was just better at it..

Not condoning it in the slightest mind- It was wrong beyond words- but the whole sport was crooked

My step dad loved Lance so much- but he died before we found out about him.. Everytime i think of lance I think more of him tbh!!

[kwinigolfer]

A lot of people here still thankful for everything Armstrong did to fight cancer.
Can't comprehend that the cycling authorities, sponsors and most in the media who now castigate him knew exactly what was going on; they profited handsomely from his exploits, so hope they have to pay any reparations also.
Very similar to the ongoing baseball shenanigans to which the authorities didn't even turn a blind eye, just carried on profiting from the other-worldly performances of the culprits.

[Plunky]

The worst thing to me was the way he treated people who found out what was going on and who spoke up against it. He was quite happy to ruin their lives/reputations etc and doesn't seem the least bit remorseful about that. Didn't he say he'd lost track of how many people he'd sued over doping allegations ?
There are money-back claims out there already, but I bet he will still come out ahead financially -- he probably has another book in the pipeline already !

[Doon the Water]

Kwinni
There are a lot of people who fundraise for cancer charities who think he is lower than a snakes belly.

[pedro]

He must have a book coming out. Or maybe he plans a come back at this years tour? Or maybe he just wants to be in "Dancing with the Stars"?

[Shotrock]

Doon - Knew someone with prostate cancer (in total remission) who worked with Lance on a big fundraiser. Had good things to say about him and was thankful for his involvement in that charity.

[barragan]

as for timing - see no.4?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cycling/21085940

[McLaren]

It would seem to me that lances biggest mistake was to behave like a pr1ck and treat people like dirt rather than use EPO. This made him unpopular with a lot of people in the cycling world and also with the more dedicated fans.

If you speak to a lot of cycling fans they admit that the last clean winner of the tour before cadel evans was lemond, which means even the great indurain was on something (apparatly it is almost certain he was one of the first to benefit from EPO). The key thing is that Indurain is known as one of the nicest men in cycling and therefore did not provoke the same witch hunt as lance did. It must also be noted lance gained a lot more fame and fortune out of the situation.

Another issue, and this is not to defend Armstrong or otherwise, but he took PED's and won, why are USADA and the like not hunting the people who took them and finished 25th? Surely it doesn't matter where you place it is the fact you took them.

My point being that for a long time (probably still is) cycling has been rife with drug use so why waste resources bringing only one man to justice when really the whole sport needs an overhaul?


As for the interview it was odd how easy it seemed for him to just come clean like that. You would have thought it would have been a bit harder emotionally on most people.

[JAS]

It would seem to me that lances biggest mistake was to behave like a pr1ck and treat people like dirt rather than use EPO. This made him unpopular with a lot of people in the cycling world and also with the more dedicated fans.

If you speak to a lot of cycling fans they admit that the last clean winner of the tour before cadel evans was lemond, which means even the great indurain was on something (apparatly it is almost certain he was one of the first to benefit from EPO). The key thing is that Indurain is known as one of the nicest men in cycling and therefore did not provoke the same witch hunt as lance did. It must also be noted lance gained a lot more fame and fortune out of the situation.

Another issue, and this is not to defend Armstrong or otherwise, but he took PED's and won, why are USADA and the like not hunting the people who took them and finished 25th? Surely it doesn't matter where you place it is the fact you took them.

My point being that for a long time (probably still is) cycling has been rife with drug use so why waste resources bringing only one man to justice when really the whole sport needs an overhaul?


As for the interview it was odd how easy it seemed for him to just come clean like that. You would have thought it would have been a bit harder emotionally on most people.

Tend to agree with most of that Mac but I wouldn't assume Indurain guilty although it's a good point re Armstrong - acted like a pr1ck = hunted down and Indurain - nice quiet guy = left alone although perhaps he was left alone because he was actually clean.

From a confession point of view Armstrong has done what he needed to do...or at least started to - I do think he needs to come clean about who else was involved. You simply cannot cheat on that scale without a LOT of help. For all his faults and all his misdemeanours, yes he should be punished and he is being but he should be encouraged to open up more and give full details of the whole saga not knee jerk condemned by holier than thous.

I'm not getting the "It's pathetic, he never showed any emotion or remorse" What the hell are people looking for? I think it actually took a lot of balls to come clean.

I don't think any of us a capable of understanding what made the man tick and what made him make the choices he made. Even unclean the Tour de France will still be a brutal race, the vast majority of us couldn't complete a stage far less a whole tour and I can see his point (albeit flawed) that he saw taking PEDs as gaining a level playing field as his main competitors were clearly doping. So yes he cheated, like so many others of his generation. The bigger issue to me were the things he did and said to keep the cover up going and the people he hurt/bullied along the way to keep it going. Forgiveness for that is down to those he hurt and if I were him I wouldn't hold my breath.

Getting his ban lifted? I think he should just park that one, he would never be trusted. Any event he ever entered would be a media circus. Probably best he just retires and writes another book.

[super_realist]

Jas, I think its the way in which he tried to justify the cheating that irks people. The 'air in my tyres, and water in my bottle' metaphor is pretty disgraceful. And certainly not showing any contrition. Plus for a decade he has vehemently denied for years ever taking anything.



Did it take a lot of balls to come clean? Not really, in the face of such strong evidence he was compelled to yet he still tried to wriggle out of it, and fat oprah hardly rolled him over the coals like someone like Paxman would have.

The interview was clearly carefully stage managed and a journalist worth their salt would have ripped him to shreds. Fat oprah was no better than the wimsey and mumsy Lorraine Kelly, a tepid, weak, predictable interviewer who played into his hands. Wasn't exactly Frost/Nixon was it?

He has taken hypocrisy to a new level and I'm really not sure why he needs his ban lifted, he's already too old to compete at that level.

The man will probably go to jail amd end up broke. Good riddance.

[JAS]

Whilst it would have been amusing watching the likes of Paxman tearing him to shreds I think the result of that would have been that he would just have clammed up completely.

As for going to jail, re the point Barragan referred to earlier, and you could say he's been cynical with the timing, as I read it the chances of him going to jail (for perjury) expired at the end of last year (a bit odd as you'd think lying under oath is lying under oath and is a fact that doesn't expire). So unless he confesses to something like traffiking and supplying PEDs, jail is unlikely.

Imagine if he does get a competitive ban lifted and takes up golf, we can look forward to a net 58 at the Dunhill (paired with Saltman)

[mystiroakey]

yeah he should take up golf..

Just to wind our SR up.

[super_realist]

Jas, I was thinking more on fraud charges rather than lying under oath or perjury, not that perjurers go to jail too often anyway.

He has gained money through sponsorship by deception, he's also defrauded the tax paying American public via the US Postal team. Given the nature of American law, I would think someone, somewhere would be able to make the case for a custodial sentence, there isn't a chance he can repay what he stole.

He'll be getting sued left, right and centre.

[mystiroakey]

SR if he was done for gaining money through sponsership by deception- wouldnt that open the flood gates for every doper ever to be up for criminal convictions..

I honestly cant see him going to jail..

[super_realist]

There is a precedent for cheating athletes going to jail or getting criminal charges, Marion Jones, Barry Bonds (probation) etc.

I actually don't think Armstrong will go to jail either, but it's nice to know he could do.

[mystiroakey]

do you know what charges they were convicted for

[mystiroakey]

was marion Jailed on the basis that she lied to a grand jury?

Therefore no one yet has gone to jail for fraud..

I cant see a presedent being set for this tbh SR

[super_realist]

I'm not talking about it on that basis. I'm thinking more on a fraud basis, what I'm saying is that sportspeople are not immune to the law, and have on occasion gone to jail whether that be for perjury, fraud, drug taking etc.

Will Armstrong go to jail, probably not, but he shouldn't think he's got away with this just yet. He's got a million creditors to pay.

[mystiroakey]

well no SR. No sportsman has ever gone to jail or been tried in a criminal court for defrauding sponsers etc by using PEDS..

And as i said, that would open up a thousand plus cases..

They wont open that can of worms..It is left to the businesses or individuals that want to sue in civil courts

[JAS]

Jas, I was thinking more on fraud charges rather than lying under oath or perjury, not that perjurers go to jail too often anyway.

He has gained money through sponsorship by deception, he's also defrauded the tax paying American public via the US Postal team. Given the nature of American law, I would think someone, somewhere would be able to make the case for a custodial sentence, there isn't a chance he can repay what he stole.

He'll be getting sued left, right and centre.

I know what you're saying re U.S. Postal but his lawyer would immediately counter that by saying U.S. Postal ultimately benefitted from the "success" and publicity gained by it.

The defence in such a case should also suggest that they (USP) were complicit. A big company with all it's resources didn't do enough due diligence to find out what was really going on?? Or did they know and were happy to ride the wave after being given assurances that he wouldn't be caught. That's another reason why he needs to come clean completely

[super_realist]

Fair enough Jas, just think that Armstrong might have another thing coming if he thinks he can just turn up on Oprah answer a few easy questions and expect to be forgiven. Somebody will take umbridge, and I think more than a couple of Newspapers who he sued for libel will be gunning for him.

[JAS]

Oh I think he pretty much knows he's completely and utterly Donald Ducked.

Lets face it he has to have been really really stupid to get into a position where newspapers can actually sue him (it's usually papers that have to defend that sort of thing).

On a personal level it's the Emma O'Reilly's & Greg Lemond's that need to take stock and decide how much of a pop (if any) they want to take at him.

[super_realist]

Hopefully they will. I wonder if companies like Trek and Nike might also so him for damage to reputation?

[McLaren]

If nike are going to sue anyone for damage to reputation it should be r-mac for displaying how their equipment can turn the worlds best player into a 18 handicapper.


I still dont see what all the armstrong cheating scandal has taught us. We already knew he beat a whole bunch of dopers 7 times, while being doped up to the eyeballs himself. What I would love to see is cycling as a whole accept that all results since 1990 should be written off. Armstrong is a deeply unpleasant man but why let that distract from uncovering - or admitting - that cycling is a scam in the same way wwf is?

[super_realist]

Mac, You could probably say the same for Weightlifting, Athletics, American Football, Baseball and a host of other sports that have had high profile cheats uncovered. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an element of it in every sport. Certainly some suspicious absences in the genteel sport of golf and also in Tennis in recent years.

Questions can be raised the world over in sport I think. Not sure singling Cycling out as if it were the only one with problems is that helpful.

[mystiroakey]

i think the great thing about golf- is that due to it being a game that doesnt require fitness yet so many other attributes- i am not sure how any PEDS could improve performance on the course, well i am sure some could improve certain attributes but at the same time they could negate others..

[super_realist]

Oakey, PED's in terms of ones that improve cardio function would of course be stupid when we have the likes of Clarke and Lowry about, but other drugs designed to keep you calm, lower blood pressure, heart rate, anxiety etc could certainly give a player an edge. I'm thinking about beta blockers here.

[mystiroakey]

yep i have taken them before(perscprition) and it has aided my putting performance.. However they can also make you go abit light headed and maybe that sharpness of the mind is slightly lost- although they calm you down significantly..

I am very sure many pros have been on them as perscription. A goodGP friedn of mine says they are given out like smarties these days for many conditions.. And I think golfers can get away with using them if on perscription.. However they are banned i think if they are not on perscription! but just reading about them they reakon at least 7 of the top players use them!!

[golfermartin]

Armstrong is claiming that his lifetime ban is overly harsh. He would like to be able to compete in triathlon. I must say that he has a point. The British Olympic Authority were forced into accepting drug cheats back onto their team (David Millar and Dwain Chambers to name but two) when they had been (rightly in my opinion) given a lifetime ban. So why can WADA impose a lifetime ban and not be challenged?

IMHO all convicted drug cheats should be banned for life with no remission. Anything less is sending a weak message to sportspeople.

[McLaren]

super

Why get petty when your sport is in disarray? If cycling were the sport I loved then I would rather see the whole thing cleaned up and not the creation of comic book style bad guy. Lance needs questioned and punished but no more so than anyone else who cheated.

[super_realist]

Mac, I'm not a cycling fan, I'm just saying you attack it too vociferously when you don't know enough about it.
My point is that if you dig deep into any sport, you'll find cheats.

All cheats in all sports should be punished. I agree, but Armstrong is the one at the moment who has been caught with his pants down, and was the biggest name, perpetually feigning innocence until the body of evidence was too great about him

Other cyclists have been caught and banned, but they don't carry Armstrongs status, nor have they made a big deal of being clean.
It's only because you don't know anything about cycling, or are not interested in it that those cases have passed you by.
Floyd Landis (TDF winner) Jens Ulrich, Ivan Basso, Frank Schlek all very high profile cyclists to be caught and banned.

[mystiroakey]

Trying to put myself in the minds of athletes(and i mean track and field and cyclists here)

Firstly it must be very hard to stick by the drug list that they cant take.., Just things like sudafed contain steroids.. That they may not be able to take if they have a cold.. Secondly they must all know within there field the others that are taking drugs.. What should they all do just suck it up or say to themselves This is my living on the line- to earn i have to maintain a level playing field.. My family comes first.

there is only a couple of ways out of this situation that we are in.

1. let them do what the heck they want..(maybe the only true way of doing it)

2. Make punishments so hard(well the UK tried to dish out life time bans!!) but the oylimpic commitee wont allow that stance anyway- so even when proactive nations (like the UK) make a stance its undermined!!

3. make punishments even harder-and make the offences criminal.. But considering the commitees dont even dish out life time bans on athletes - thats not gonna happen..

[Doon the Water]

Anyone who thinks Paxman is a good interviewer should see him interview Salmond after the last election. Soapy tied him up in a little box and sent him home [tae think again]

[dynamark]

Who was the british cyclist who died from heart attack some time ago?drug taking over a prolonged period was blamed.
Armstrong needs locking away for as long as possible.Criminal in every way

[super_realist]

Anyone who thinks Paxman is a good interviewer should see him interview Salmond after the last election. Soapy tied him up in a little box and sent him home [tae think again]

He really struggles against George Galloway too, but I think he'd be more than capable of handling someone as stupid as Lance Armstrong.

[JAS]

Who was the british cyclist who died from heart attack some time ago?drug taking over a prolonged period was blamed.
Armstrong needs locking away for as long as possible.Criminal in every way

Tommy Simpson Dyna, died on a mountain time trial up Mont Ventoux in the 1967 Tour and was found to have traces of amphetamine...obviously long before the days of the EPO & Testosterone.

The startling fact I never knew until fairly recently is that up until the late '60s there was NO ban on performance enhancing substances in the TdF (it may actually have been Simpsons death that triggered a rethink)

[I'm never wrong]

He'll be getting sued left, right and centre.

......and someone has lined up already. BBC report

[dynamark]

Thanks jas tommy simpson seems like yesterday tbh,

[kwinigolfer]

I thought it was yesterday; I remember hearing about it during Top Of The Pops, Whiter Shade Of Pale was on at the time; sadly seemed appropriate.

[JAS]

Glued to the tennis this morning, intrigued by Lendl's answer in his pre-match interview when asked about what frustrates him..."when my putting doesn't work"

A quick google revealed he plays off +1, he's even tried Nationwide tour events and U.S. Open qualifying.

[I'm never wrong]

Didn't he play on the ET once or twice?
Just looked it up. Chemapol Trophy Czech Open.

[pedro]

I wonder if his pre-shot routine resembles the one he had in tennis? Fiddling his racket, socks, shoes, shirt, wristband, racket, socks, shoes, shirt, wristband, shirt, and over again.

[dynamark]

tennis have got to sort out the line/challenge issue bearing in mind most matches at top level are settled by a few points either way.
Jock o vitch just left a ball he thought was going out /line call/murray challenge and it was well on the line.had to replay a point murray had won as his opponent stopped playing.Seen it a few times this week.
Murray obviously in a bit of trouble with his feet but that type of court is so hard on the feet/ankles/knees because there is just so much grip on the surface and the stress gets transferred.Top match though

[Diggers]

Just watched Liverpool lose to Oldham, very funny.
Really do not see what the fuss is about Raheem Stirling, I can't say I've ever seem him play a good game. Henderson dross as always.

[super_realist]

LIverpool really are no marks. Living in the past

[JAS]

According to papers this morning even beating Liverpool may not be enough to save Dickov from the chop!! You do wonder sometimes what planet some club chairmen are on!!

[puligny]

How about Scholes as player manager at Oldham. Long time fan and has said it's the only (other) club he would play for!!

[mystiroakey]

Scholes is abit meek to be a manager dont ya think!!

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