New Zealand and the HAKA! !

First topic message reminder :

NO. This is not thread about New Zealand and not performing the HAKA before the game.
That question has been ask about a thousand times before.

New Zealand have been saying for a long time now, that the team.s they are playing against should respect the HAKA.

New Zealand usaly does 1 of 2 Haka's.

1) Kamate

2)Kapa O pong.

It has been said that New Zealand only peform Kapa O'pongo against teams that they have total respect for.

Teams like Australai, South Africa mainly because they play them more than any NH team/s.

Does that then indicate that if they do not perform Kapa O'pong against any NH team that they have NO, Or very little respect for any of the NH team/s? And if that is so, should the NH team/s have respect for the HAKA. (Should they stand there and just observe)

Your thoughts please.

The ABs don't give a toss about how the opposition team responds. They love it if there's a response. Ask Buck how great it was when the Irish responded to the haka all those years ago. They loved the French V arrowhead in the final.

It's the IRB that have the problem and are precious regarding the haka. So attack them. Don't attack the ABs and the haka

dallym wrote:The ABs don't give a toss about how the opposition team responds. They love it if there's a response. Ask Buck how great it was when the Irish responded to the haka all those years ago. They loved the French V arrowhead in the final.

It's the IRB and Ma'a Nonu that have the problem and are precious regarding the haka. So attack them. Don't attack the ABs and the haka

Fixed that for you Dally

dallym wrote:The ABs don't give a toss about how the opposition team responds. They love it if there's a response. Ask Buck how great it was when the Irish responded to the haka all those years ago. They loved the French V arrowhead in the final.

It's the IRB that have the problem and are precious regarding the haka. So attack them. Don't attack the ABs and the haka

who attacked the ABs?

http://www.leicestertigers.com/matchdaytv/?play=media&id=13423

NZ Maoris on Tuesday evening

The problem is rightly or wrongly the IRB see the haka as a showpiece for rugby but want to wrap it up in cotton ball and fear if they allow responses, it will escalate into real warfare and that will reflect badly on the game.

Moreover, for many of the ABs with Polynesian heritage and an increasing pride among New Zealanders of European descent in things that identify NZ, they do not realise that for many outsiders, the haka is an incomprehensible silly dance because they are not aware of its cultural significance. So precious comments are seen as a way of defending something that is dearly cherished by many in NZ but misunderstood or unknown outside of NZ.

The end result, a rather displeasing sanitised version with a damned if you do damned if you don't response to the public. A little compromise from all sides is what's required as I feel most people don't have a problem with the ABs performing it. They have a problem with how it's limited in its response. Which is fair enough.

Oh so it's the worlds problem for not knowing a hundred years of history of the Haka???

How dare we!!

I love it, but I can remember the 70's and 80's versions better than a night at the Apollo.

If the IRB are "worried" that any response to the Haka will lead to trouble on the pitch, surely that is the proof that the AB's are precious about it, except that they hide behind "We love a challenge, it's just that the IRB rules prevent it" -which really means "we love a challenge as long as you don't disrespct our Haka" - i.e. there's an implied threat that if the opposition do something we (AB's) don't like there will be a fight and the IRB wouldn't like that.
If the NZRU were not bothered about how the Haka is challenged then surely it would be a matter of five minutes at an IRB committee meeting to say "Actually we'd really like the opposition to react to the Haka in any way they see fit - short of violence - so we propose that the IRB drop their "you must do X.Y & Z during the Haka rule".
I assume that the other IRBN nations would not queue up to go against the wishes of the NZRU in such an instance given it's cultural significance.

HERSH wrote:I love it, but I can remember the 70's and 80's versions better than a night at the Apollo.

Everyone danced a little differently in the 70s!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1av7cjeXyA0

Remember we sent the Go Compare fella on with a flag after the Haka?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayAxm6KA2rw

Right up there with the time we wound them up by making them do it in the changing rooms. Worked a treat, that one.

Not saying we lack cultural awareness or anything.

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh so it's the worlds problem for not knowing a hundred years of history of the Haka???

How dare we!!

Yes, wouldn't hurt to learn a bit of respect, especially in favour of the worlds premier team Bluesman.

The Haka remains one of the jewels of the sport - Pure theatre and passion - long may it continue - Privelage to witness

Fiji did their one at Kingsholm on Tuesday night.
I have a camphone picture somewhere.... let me see...

LondonTiger wrote:No one has answered my question from earlier - when NZ play PI countries, in which order are the Hakas done?

Normally the home team performs and the away team answers in that case.

If you've ever has the privilege of a Maori greeting, there's an uncomfortable bit where you are supposed to respond although as I understand you are welcome to respond in any way you feel you can, and if you don't have someone with you who can offer something up, you find yourself doing an impromptu song and dance number which can be a bit awkward, but I have to admit breaks the ice well and truely.

kiakahaaotearoa

thanks for the reasoned response. this is not intended to be offensive

I think a part of it is perspective - I have suits older than this "tradition" ( accepting the Haka as we know it starts in the 70s) and the building I live in was here before there where any white settlers in NZ. Thus to me a cultural tradition that is only a few decades old seems to be a bit of an invention. I suppose if its roots are so shallow then you defend it all the more?

I find the claims of cultural significance from a polynesian (Nonu) who wears dreadlocks just ridiculous. Dreadlocks are a symbol of a black Caribbean religion. Its just wrong for anyone else to wear them. Its OK for him to co opt another religions culturally significant ikons?

Accept it as symbolic theatre and enjoy it for what it is. To claim its culturally significant is more than a little hard to swallow from here. Its a hybrid thing - rugby being the national sport and the Haka being a modernised version of a war chant from the heritage of a part of the population of the islands.

What is traditional to the Polynesian peoples of playing a game invented in England?

TJ wrote: kiakahaaotearoa

thanks for the reasoned response. this is not intended to be offensive

I think a part of it is perspective - I have suits older than this "tradition" ( accepting the Haka as we know it starts in the 70s) and the building I live in was here before there where any white settlers in NZ.

TJ, I'm sorry but that could obviously be construed as quite offensive. You have suits older than the Haka tradition? Really? A little research would tell you how young your suits are in comparison to the Haka's involvement in New Zealand rugby. And White settlers are a pretty recent bunch in NZ, so your house is pretty young in terms of Maori traditions too.

No offence intended

The haka as performed at rugby matches now started in the 70s. I thought that had been accepted in this discussion. Before that it was only done on overseas tours and done differently.

As for maori traditions - yes the roots of the Haka go back a long way but how long have they been playing rugby? The haka was a war dance done to psych up the warriers before going into battle was it not?

Thus using the Haka before a battle is the traditional place for it - co opting this onto a sporting contest is recent - and one of the suits is nearly a hundred years old :-)

to put it in perspective -I understand tha the "traditional scottish kilt" is actually a recent ( victorian) invention, there is no such thing as a celtic tribe, tartan is an invention of and for english tourists.

Unpicking the real roots of cultural icons is often rather interesting and odd in what you find out. Most of our christmas tgraditions are imported from other countries fairly recently as well for another example.

I think the fact that some people are offended or dismissive of the Haka is quite revealing in itself and maybe those roots are the ones that need addressing. Go Blacks!

AS I say - I enjoy it as spectacle - the roar from the crowd as the scots team linked arms and advanced on them is great theatre. I would hate to see it disappear.

edit
I am trying to understand why folk like Nonu get so upset at any sign of disrespect and also why from the other side its not always easy to understand the significance. I have learnt stuff on this thread.

TJ wrote:to put it in perspective -I understand tha the "traditional scottish kilt" is actually a recent ( victorian) invention, there is no such thing as a celtic tribe, tartan is an invention of and for english tourists.

Unpicking the real roots of cultural icons is often rather interesting and odd in what you find out. Most of our christmas tgraditions are imported from other countries fairly recently as well for another example.

Hmmm.......... that ancient suit of yours is getting you into all kinds of trouble, TJ

Seems the only people to exist in pre-historic times, when all the cultural stuff was being given out to the peoples of the world who didn't have any, was the English! They've always had their culture of course, none of which was ever influenced by the Celtic cultures (real culture if not a real tribe) Roman culture, Saxon culture, Viking culture, Norman culture and of course the Anglo-Saxon one!
It seems the English invented everything TJ. They invented rugby, their 'white settlers' invented NZ before the true NZers knew who they were, the victorians invented the kilt and English tourists invented the tartan. And they invented all those things in or around 1850 according to your calendar!

Truth is the kilt existed long before the Victorians...an Englishman invented a version of it yes, but he didn't invent the idea. Truth is tartan wasn't invented by English tourists either and existed quite some time before the English even invented 'tourism' itself.

I do get your point about the iffy nature of culture though; ...but that's iffy for all - iffy for all cultures. And if every culture has iffy heritage then let's just respect all of them equally.

Just to put the record straight the oldest version of tartan is actually Welsh, as was St Patrick!!!

Not saying Wales invented Tartan but the oldest proof of Tartan is from Wales!!

thebluesmancometh wrote:Oh so it's the worlds problem for not knowing a hundred years of history of the Haka???

How dare we!!

That is not what I wrote. I said sometimes we expect what many hold true and dear in NZ to be treated the same way outside NZ and such a view is misguided.

The All Blacks regularly r*** us NH by 50/60 points and all we can do is moan about one of their traditions???

SecretFly wrote:I do get your point about the iffy nature of culture though; ...but that's iffy for all - iffy for all cultures. And if every culture has iffy heritage then let's just respect all of them equally.

... except the IRB don't. They treat a certain culture differently from others and are therefore undoubtedly discriminatory.

I just feel that people shouldn't object to the Haka that is New Zealand's tradition and their way. However people whoever they be also should not object to whatever the opposition want to respond when it is at their home venue. You cant just walk into someones stadium we are going to do this but you are to stand still and not respond in any way so we can get fired up but you can't illicit any response if anyone IRB or not said that to me I would tell them where to go.

I should also say just to clarify that's when New Zealand play away when in New Zealand then the opposition should not challenge or anything in my opinion as it is New Zealand's home.

This talk of what is a tradition and what isn't for another culture I believe is always about looking at things from the wrong perspective.

If someone/culture wants to adopt something and call it a tradition after a little while why does an outsider have anything to say about it being a valid tradition or not?

My extended family in Guangzhou have been on that plot of land for about 800 years. Now that's not long by Chinese standards but its long enough to have established some traditions in most peoples minds. My wife comes from a City in China which only became a proper city about 600 years ago (it was only a town for the first 1000 years before that).

So both those places aren't that old but their residents have established some traditions and they are accepted as traditions.

The potato was introduced to Ireland only about 500 years ago but it is commonly accepted that some traditional Irish food includes potatoes as an ingredient

English rugby fans sing "Sweet Low" to support their team. Now it seems weird to me why they might choose this song but they have and it has become a tradition for them. My approval or understanding of the reason does not matter.

Welsh fans want to sing an official anthem (a song written only 160ish years ago) before the start of the game - a tradition only started just over 100 years ago. Why should I care if they wish to do it.

My ethnic Chinese family have a tradtional NZ bbq for Christmas and have done so for the last 20 odds years.

Again and again a small number of fans have a moan about the Haka. People talk about what is or isn't or should or shouldn't be considered traditional. And then give all NZ fans like me grief when the IRB make a stupid decision or when a meathead like Nonu says something.

Move on FFS

The Great Aukster wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I do get your point about the iffy nature of culture though; ...but that's iffy for all - iffy for all cultures. And if every culture has iffy heritage then let's just respect all of them equally.

... except the IRB don't. They treat a certain culture differently from others and are therefore undoubtedly discriminatory.

So you object to Fiji, Tonga or Samoa being able to showcase their culture as well. Or is it just the haka you object to?

Calm down dear, all true rugby fans love the Haka tradition.
It is an electrifying moment for fans north & south.
Fiji did their Haka at Kingsholm before the Glos game and the whole crowd gave massive applause.
I saw the ABs at Kingsholm in 1991 RWC (vs USA Eagles if you must know) and the Haka was applauded by the mainly neutral crowd.

I've no idea where all this precious defensiveness comes from, from some AB fans. Relax, we all love the Haka.

It's because we have mug written on our forehead and can't resist the bait, every time. You'd think we'd learn but alas we don't. Anyways, we're just giving the big man upstairs a hand with defending our free land.

Free land ? Wot ?
Are those dark forces of Mordor gathering again to take your land ?
Glad you have spoken with Gandalf.. he'll sort it out.

gregortree wrote:Calm down dear, all true rugby fans love the Haka tradition.
It is an electrifying moment for fans north & south.
Fiji did their Haka at Kingsholm before the Glos game and the whole crowd gave massive applause.
I saw the ABs at Kingsholm in 1991 RWC (vs USA Eagles if you must know) and the Haka was applauded by the mainly neutral crowd.

I've no idea where all this precious defensiveness comes from, from some AB fans. Relax, we all love the Haka.

I'm quite calm ducky. I'm simply pointing out the erroneous comment from the person I quoted. I prefer to work myself up for people who insist on playing music without headphones.

anotherworldofpain wrote:If you've ever has the privilege of a Maori greeting, there's an uncomfortable bit where you are supposed to respond although as I understand you are welcome to respond in any way you feel you can, and if you don't have someone with you who can offer something up, you find yourself doing an impromptu song and dance number which can be a bit awkward, but I have to admit breaks the ice well and truely.

I'd probably do this

Spoiler:

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I do get your point about the iffy nature of culture though; ...but that's iffy for all - iffy for all cultures. And if every culture has iffy heritage then let's just respect all of them equally.

... except the IRB don't. They treat a certain culture differently from others and are therefore undoubtedly discriminatory.

So you object to Fiji, Tonga or Samoa being able to showcase their culture as well. Or is it just the haka you object to?

Neither, I don't object to the haka(s) at all. What I object to is the unfair discrimination shown by the IRB in favouring some nations over others.

Ok, fair enough if that's your opinion.

What I object to is the embarrasing WRU who made the Blacks do the Haka in the changing rooms. How pathetic and embarrasing was that. Enjoy the spectacle and pure theatre, applaud it and then get on with the fxxxing game.

Well I don't think they made them Ruby. They didn't want to back down on the order that had already been agreed upon but that's not quite the same thing.

Ruby
We true rugby fans love the Haka.

But the WRU and the team should huddle up in the bathroom, until it is all over, then run out onto the pitch as though nothing had happened.

Taylorman wrote:It was played before France and Argie in the WCup and Argie in their first match against the ABs in the RC as a welcome to the tournament and as a true recognition of a new world rugby force in the eyes of the AB's.

Judging by last weekend it looks like that respect was justified.

They have earmarked it for special occasions or ones they so desperately need to win a tournament. If they start playing it to appease the 'feelings' of other sides then what is the point of it?

Call it arrogance and that's understandable as well. Its not intended that way.

Is it not appeasing the 'feelings' of the All Blacks to let them do a Haka after the home team's national anthem, and to have to watch it intently?

Not trying to turn it into 'Should the Haka be allowed' point, but given the term 'respect' is constantly bandied about, i'm not sure how it's respectful to teams to have a two tier Haka system. The whole 'play better' argument is BS, the ABs may not truly respect teams like Scotland, and maybe England, but I see no reason why they shouldn't show them respect publicly.

The ABs do it last because its traditional to do so. Simple. If they dont want it last then they probably wont see it. That points been made clear.