India v England, First Test Thread

[msp83]

First topic message reminder :

India won the toss and are batting.
No surprises with the teams.
India
Gautam Gambhir
Virender Sehwag
Cheteshwar Pujara
Sachin Tendulkar
Virat Kohli
Yuvraj Singh
MS Dhoni
R Ashwin
Zaheer Khan
Pragyan Ojha
Umesh Yadav.
No Monty for England and Compton is having his debut.
Nick Compton
Alastair Cook
Jonathan Trott
Kevin Pietersen
Ian Bell
Samit Patel
Matt Prior
Tim Bresnan
Stuart Broad
Graeme Swann
James Anderson.
The pitch seems dry and should take turn.

[KP_fan]

Anderson comes...anderson goes...the procession has started.

England need to play strokes.....else a ball with death written on it will come and ply them out...if they continue to offer dead defensive bat

[alfie]

Ashwin bowls Compton through a fairly narrow gap ...good piece of bowling. I thought Compton was getting a little too passive there , understandable with stumps getting close , but I think England will need to play a bit more positively tomorrow - if they simply sit in the crease and defend against the spinners they will be done sooner or later ...
As I type the night watchman goes to a bat-pad...proving a good last half hour for India.

[KP_fan]

utterly defensive cricket by Eng to send Anderson...he can be a good night wtachman...but not when the skill of a batsmsn is required to keep the turning ball away

[msp83]

Alfie, I don't think this track was a road when India batted. Swann could find some life there right from day one. Not that the ball was turning big or hitting the batsman on the chest, but there was enough to keep the spinner interested.

[guildfordbat]

I'm generally unkeen on sending in a nightwatchman. Fears proved founded again as Anderson departs - I think he should have gone even earlier lbw.

All to do, were certainly going uphill against the wind ....

[msp83]

Another 3 more overs, India would dearly love to separate Trott and Cook.

[msp83]

Yes, one more!!!!.

[Mad for Chelsea]

well this is a disaster. not a nice session to have to bat, but England just pushing and poking their way to defeat here.

[msp83]

A duck for Jonathan Trott. KP time?

[guildfordbat]

All to do, were certainly going uphill against the wind ....

Trott goes and the hill is starting to look like a mountain ....

[KP_fan]

Trott comes...and Trott goes.....the processsion continues.

The more England analyze and plan...the more they freeze and forget the basics.

THEY HAVE TO PLAY STROKES...else they will choke for less than a 100

[msp83]

These 2, Pietersen and Cook are England's best particularly in sub-continent conditions. Oh, there is that hurried single!.

[msp83]

Where is Yuvraj???

[msp83]

Oh here he is!!.

[msp83]

Boundary for Pietersen to start with!.

[alfie]

Probably fair point , msp...probably should have qualified my comments : totally useless for the pacemen but yes , some spin available.
But you wouldn't have said it was difficult to bat on even against Swann , would you ? He really had to work for his wickets...

Anyway , I didn't intend to take anything away from the Indian batsmen , who generally played extremely well. But when just about every wicket only falls on an aggressive shot I tend to think the pitch is on the flat side .

Aagh...Trott gone . Sharp catching in close...

[Mad for Chelsea]

Yuvraj on, but that's a lousy over. Starts with probably the worst ball of the match, and another half-tracker is also put away by Cook.

[msp83]

The move well worth the go, particularly considering the size of the ego at the other end, but it hasn't worked. Ooh very nearly another one for Ashwin. KP trying to make Ashwin change his length by coming down the wicket. Cook has looked quite composed out there in the midst of the carnage. England would be relieved, that is the end of the day's play.

[Mad for Chelsea]

so a mountain for England to climb tomorrow.

still, Cook played pretty well it must be said, and there's plenty of batting to come, so it's not all doom and gloom.

[alfie]

I'm generally unkeen on sending in a nightwatchman. Fears proved founded again as Anderson departs - I think he should have gone even earlier lbw.

All to do, were certainly going uphill against the wind ....

Night watch here was always going to be tricky , probably worth a shot though...Anderson often does grit it out well and had it come off we'd still have Trott.
Lbw was correctly called not out , by the way; pitched outside leg. Umpires have been very good here on a number of marginal calls.
41/3 not exactly the situation we'd have hoped for : need a Cook double century tomorrow

[guildfordbat]

I'm generally unkeen on sending in a nightwatchman. Fears proved founded again as Anderson departs - I think he should have gone even earlier lbw.

All to do, were certainly going uphill against the wind ....

Night watch here was always going to be tricky , probably worth a shot though...Anderson often does grit it out well and had it come off we'd still have Trott.
Lbw was correctly called not out , by the way; pitched outside leg. Umpires have been very good here on a number of marginal calls.
41/3 not exactly the situation we'd have hoped for : need a Cook double century tomorrow

Hi Alfie - I just feel a nightwatchman far too often gives an early extra wicket to the bowling side. Even if not in the closing minutes of play, early the next morning which acts as a morale booster.

I hadn't picked up the ball was pitched outside leg - neither did the SKY commentators. I'll try to see it again.

A poor morning session tomorrow and Bumble can start the car ....

[msp83]

If you haven't followed, the other test match between Bangladesh and the West Indies is shaping up for a close last day finish with all results possible.

[KP_fan]

End of D2:

--as I said on D1......match is surely gone for England...but are they learning lessons to be more competitive by T2?

Toss does have an influence but as Pujara and Yuvraj showed today until late D2......you can still bat on this pitch...with right technique and positive frame of mind.

--In the morning when Swann didn't get any success in the first half hour...Englnad gave up.....hoping to contain, minimize damage and wait for a declaration.

--and in the end of the day there was NO POSITIVE INTENT from english batsman....who got their death deliveries......that this pitch and quality of bowling combined will deliver every 2nd or 3rd over...if you are blocking.
If you atttack, dance down the track...you force the bowlers to alter their length, line and avoid tightening the noose.....making them harder to get the wicket.

--So those who play for a draw....defensively....are walloped by an innings margin
Those who play hard aggressive cricket...can you come close and compete.
Hope England can learn this lesson...although I see Flower doing the same all over again......inspite of the results in UAE and ODIs in India.

Hope Englnad have seen that specialist spinners make a lot of diffference and play real spinners and reallly fast in the air bowlers.

----Interesting questions for tomorrow:
how many will KP get before the spinners get him.
Will Indian Enforce a Follow-On?

PS* A Perefect Test match for India so far.
even if they wrote the script for a perfect game themselves....they woudln't have given themselves as much as they have by end of D2

[alfie]

Amazingly I actually found something in KP fan's post to agree with then

England batsmen do need to use their feet and play shots tomorrow , defending passively is just delayed death. Indeed I said so on page three. Not sure I expected Trott - or Anderson - to come out swinging tonight though. Was actually a fairly classic case of the ideal declaration ; after two days in the field , once one opener goes a couple of late wickets often fall.
Can't say I agree with much else though : if he thinks England should have been attacking with three slips at 400/4 he has an interesting set of tactics...a bit of containment , which at least had the merit of slowing the scoring , was about the only practical approach for Cook after lunch today.
And as for playing real spinners , they don't come much more real than Swann. I certainly couldn't claim , with hindsight , that Monty P would have done any worse than one of the seamers , but neither am I convinced he would have made a huge difference. I reckon whatever attack England fielded they would probably have been chasing a fair few on this pitch , given the application shown by the Indian batsmen.
Certainly don't share his disregard for Flower ...but I see he will never be forgiven for failing to allow his hero to write his own rules...

[VTR]

Aargh! This is last Winter redux. Well at least tomorrow I will be getting up later and so checking the score once most of the damage has been done. Fully expecting to get up tomorrow and we will be 6 or 7 down at best!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

The minute Samit Patel starts taking wickets you know england will be in trouble when its their turn to bat

[KP_fan]

Humor of the day.......Andy Bull on telegraph's over by over updates.........Had India declared half and hour earlier...they would have bowled out England today

Naah...bad Humour....there is KP...and then I know Swann-n-Prior will brandish their bats and fight.

my script for the remainder of the game......

KP score a dashing 70dd...and Eng follow on
KP score a run a ball 100 in 2nd inning...and Innings defeat is complete

PS* I won't mind Swan top scoring eitehr in first inning instead of KP....I put 2euros on him being the highest scorer and I will get 2*67= 134 euros back....if that were to happen

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I dunno why everyones so glum. if you take Kholi, tendulkat and Khan as equiveklant players to those who England have lost so far its not that much of a difference between the sides

[KP_fan]

And as for playing real spinners , they don't come much more real than Swann. I certainly couldn't claim , with hindsight , that Monty P would have done any worse than one of the seamers , but neither am I convinced he would have made a huge difference. .

those numbers below tell you that oen spinner and 2 parttimers had India 245-7........one more proper spinner and India could have been bowled out for 300odd.
Any way England can remian in self denial to do thr right thing of bringing Monty, Finn and also meaker in the next test

seam-bowling triumvirate which returned collective figures of 70-10-245-1.

Since England’s three spinners – Graeme Swann, Samit Patel and Kevin Pietersen – combined for 90-12-265-7, the numbers told their own story. How India are loving this.


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-2233890/India-v-England-Ravi-Ashwin-Pragyan-Ojha-open-fresh-spin-wounds.html#ixzz2COA7Bpnb
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

[gboycottnut]

Amazingly I actually found something in KP fan's post to agree with then

England batsmen do need to use their feet and play shots tomorrow , defending passively is just delayed death. Indeed I said so on page three. Not sure I expected Trott - or Anderson - to come out swinging tonight though. Was actually a fairly classic case of the ideal declaration ; after two days in the field , once one opener goes a couple of late wickets often fall.
Can't say I agree with much else though : if he thinks England should have been attacking with three slips at 400/4 he has an interesting set of tactics...a bit of containment , which at least had the merit of slowing the scoring , was about the only practical approach for Cook after lunch today.
And as for playing real spinners , they don't come much more real than Swann. I certainly couldn't claim , with hindsight , that Monty P would have done any worse than one of the seamers , but neither am I convinced he would have made a huge difference. I reckon whatever attack England fielded they would probably have been chasing a fair few on this pitch , given the application shown by the Indian batsmen.
Certainly don't share his disregard for Flower ...but I see he will never be forgiven for failing to allow his hero to write his own rules...

England shot themselves in the foot from the start of this test match by not playing a 5 man specialist bowling attack against what is a very strong looking Indian batting lineup. So it was inevitable that once India posted 500+ on the board England were always going to struggle when it was their turn to bat even if England were allowed to send out guys like Cook, Pietersen and Bell twice to bat in the same innings in order to make the match more interesting from a neutral's point of view.

[trebellbobaggins]

sad to see but all the problems are coming home to roost.

Aussie must be favourites now to win the Ashes next year. They are on the up, England on the slide.

[msp83]

I am not sure self denial is the best policy for England at this stage. As I wrote earlier, the reasons for England going in witth Bresnan over Panesar have a rationale of their own. However, the case for Monty that was made before the match, and the critical remarks during it are also quite rational. England got it wrong with the first. It can happen to any sides.
Monty may have made an impact, and after watching India's first, I think the chances of that were higher, than many here give credit for. Both Pietersen and Patel, despite the not so rare hit me ball, managed to keep things reasonably quite. Patel's wicket came of a horrid full toss, but it was a big wicket nevertheless. Unlike Pietersen or Patel, I don't think Monty would have given away so many hit me balls. Now that in itself would have made Swann more potent. There was some life in the track for the spinner from day one, although it wasn't turning much. Even Swann didn't manage to quite run through the Indian batting and Monty may not have done it either. But Bresnan, who's pace continued to be down, didn't quite justify the recall.
If Finn's fit then he should be back for the next match in place of Bresnan, otherwise I would say Panesar should be in with a big chance to be back. Bresnan can score a ton at 8 and take 5 wickets in the India 2nd innings and save his spot, otherwise the case for Monty becomes stronger.

[sirfredperry]

Just dying for an intelligent mid-Test quote from an England player when the team is up against it. Instead we get the usual drivel about how the team are still "very much in it" and that if someone makes 200/takes eight quick wickets we will be "right back in this match".
OK, you don't want to hear any defeatism, but a clear assessment of the "uphillness" faced would be more appropriate.
Thankfully with most sports, you only get to hear from the players AFTER the match, not during it. No doubt Arsenal players when they were 4-0 down to Reading in that League Cup match would have said they would still go on to win even if Reading got a fifth. Hold on....they DID win.

[Shelsey93]

Look. England have not done well so far, but this match remains very drawable. The game didn't really move on much today and if we're still batting at the end of tomorrow's play its going to be an uphill battle for India to force a win.

[Duty281]

Well after some poor bowling early in the morning, England did OK in the field. India were 400/4 and were probably aiming to kick on to 550+ but England contained well from that point. India eventually declared on 521/8 after spending a fair bit of time pi**ing about.

Anyway, England had an awkward 18 overs to face. Compton was out to a ripper of a ball, Anderson did about as well as you can expect of him and Trott played a poor shot.

Since England bat very deep, I'm fully optimistic that they'll avoid the follow-on, only 281 runs to get which isn't very much considering how many India got. One word is key. Positivity. England need to disrupt the spinners tomorrow and then India will be in a bit of trouble. India were positive and look where that got them. One of Cook, Pietersen or Bell needs to go on tomorrow and make a 'daddy hundred' (as Gooch calls them), as well as one of the supporting cast - Patel, Prior or Bresnan - needs to make a 50. England have to bat the day tomorrow scoring 300+, or the Test will be 95% over. If England are six down or less at stumps tomorrow then that'll be lovely.

[guildfordbat]

... if we're still batting at the end of tomorrow's play its going to be an uphill battle for India to force a win.

Not if we're 9 down following on!

[Shelsey93]

... if we're still batting at the end of tomorrow's play its going to be an uphill battle for India to force a win.

Not if we're 9 down following on!

[msp83]

Pietersen and Cook are the key for me. I said it before the series, these 2 are the best in terms of playing in Indian conditions, although they both do it in their own different styles. India need to separate the 2 at the earliest tomorrow. Samit Patel can bat against spin a lot better than many other England batsmen, and Matt Prior is also a pretty decent player of spin bowling. If they all manage to find themselves among the runs in the first innings, then it will be dificult for India to force a win.
The pitch is really getting better for spinners and India have 2 quality spinners particularly in home conditions, although they are not yet in the A level range of Indian spinners. It will be an uphill struggle for England, but so long as Pietersen is out there, I won't make hyper bold claims, he can really take the attack to the Indian bowlers and if he stays in, the Indians will also have to bring their plan B out. Of course we do have Yuvraj to take care of things!!.

[gboycottnut]

sad to see but all the problems are coming home to roost.

Aussie must be favourites now to win the Ashes next year. They are on the up, England on the slide.

Sadly I have to agree with you there about Australia now being the favourites to win the Ashes test series next year. Since the last Ashes test series in 2010/2011, Australia now have found 4 very good fast bowlers who have serious gas in James Pattinson, Patrick Cummins, Mitchell Starc and Alastair McDermott. Also their batting looks like it is getting better all the time, with guys like Ponting and Clarke batting a lot better this last year than they have in the last 2 ashes series. In contrast, England's bowling has gone backwards with guys like Stuart Broad and James Anderson not getting the wicket returns as easily as they have done in the past. England will also badly miss the batting experience that Andrew Strauss brings to top of the batting order, as well as his excellent record in ashes test series of having played in 4 ashes test series and winning 3 of them. I have a feeling that if England are to have a chance of winning back the ashes next year, we have to change back to a 5 man specialist bowling attack and play the wicketkeeper Matt Prior at 6 with Jonathan Trott opening the batting with Alastair Cook.

[KP_fan]

Ashes does Eng more harm than good...it doesn't let them focus on other cricket on hand.

for the revival of English cricket....Flower has to go...he has turned stubborn, autocratic and sadly stuck in a whirlpool of mediocrity like Broad, Bresnan, Morgan...that are sinking English cricket.

[gboycottnut]

Ashes does Eng more harm than good...it doesn't let them focus on other cricket on hand.

for the revival of English cricket....Flower has to go...he has turned stubborn, autocratic and sadly stuck in a whirlpool of mediocrity like Broad, Bresnan, Morgan...that are sinking English cricket.

I agree there. By sticking to his favourites and also not being flexible in the final selection of his starting XI with the quantity ratio of batsmen to bowlers always being that of 6 batsmen to 4 bowlers, Flower is really not giving the team enough of a chance to win at at the moment particularly as the core of the team consisting of Trott, Prior, Bell, Broad, and Anderson are not playing as well as they did say back in 2010-2011.

[Duty281]

Yeah let's get rid of the man who has coached England from a second tier Test team to a top tier Test team.

[KP_fan]

Yeah let's get rid of the man who has coached England from a second tier Test team to a top tier Test team.

I dunno how it works in England...but in Indian cricket I have seen their is an expiry date......ganguly took India to nearly the top....and then he reached his expiry date......after hitting a peak he relaxed in tests and ODIs.....and the same fighting boys who had taken him to the top viz. Sehwag, Yuvraj, Zaheer, Kaif, Bhajji, Nehra enjoyed too much of good life and stardom..turned lazy and to Ganguly's folly...he could not look beyond them.
His one time strength...these fighting boys became his blind spot...and pulled him down.

Dhoni went throuhg the same cycle of high...and then self preservation and backing favourites Rohit, Raina, RPS, Bhajji even when they were struggling pulled him down. Now we sense he has been largely de-powered and selectors have taken over....and Dhoni is living on transitionary time

I sense the same with Flower and England expiry date phenomenon...and I can also appreciate how the one time strength can turn into blind spot...but if not shaken immediately and vigrously.......it will continue to sink Eng

[Shelsey93]

The expiry date phenomenon isn't a totally ridiculous idea - it happened with Fletcher's England too.

But I'm not sure it applies to Flower's England. The individual players all (in my opinion) remain good enough, and I think Flower himself is a special man.

I struggle to see how the blame for this performance (and really its too early to start the obit on this match) rests with Flower. The team still support him (I feel Fletcher lost them at the end) and to call the players favourites (as a number on the 06-07 tour were) is wrong in my view - all of them have fine records, and I don't see anybody better who isn't playing really.

I don't think England bowled terribly - Swann was excellent, Patel was as expected, Broad and Anderson tried hard (Broad got a bit frustrated first thing today) and Bresnan was ineffective. But there was nothing for the seamers and India's batsmen are very, very good in these conditions.

With the bat Cook and KP looked good. Compton was always going to dig in and it didn't work today, but in fairness it was a pretty good delivery. I'm not against nightwatchmen per se but I thought it was too early to send Jimmy in, particularly with the spinners on so they were going to get through quite a few overs. If the nightwatchman's job is partly to protect the other batsmen then he should be expected to take strike, and the chances of him lasting over 20 balls were miniscule.

[KP_fan]

http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/story/591619.html

sometimes i find this Dobelle guy overly patriotic...but today he makes a lot of sense.

[Shelsey93]

Dobell a little harsh on Broad I think - he bowled good spells and bad spells.

I'd be amazed if Bresnan plays another match in this series now.

[Duty281]

England now 70/5 after the first hour. KP, very nervous and playing poorly was eventually bowled - only surprise was it took so long. The Bell played a really stupid shot on his 1st ball. Utterly ridiculous. England have to avoid that follow-on and remain in the 1st innings by stumps today.

[msp83]

Everything rest on captain Cook now. Pietersen, who was just beginning to get his feet moving, was pinned down by an LBW appeal and then stayed rooted to the crease and was bowled of a ball that didn't turn but Pietersen didn't reach the pitch of it, missed it and was bowled.
Then Ian Bell played an absolutely ridiculous shot and got out. He has been mediocre and inconsistent for the last one year and that's adding a lot of middle order trouble for England.
Samit Patel can play spin and Cook has looked pretty good out there. Good batsman against spin can get runs on this track, the England top order just hasn't been good enough against good bowling on a good track.

[msp83]

See Umesh Yadav hasn't had a bowl as yet. I would say give him 3 over spells in between, ask him to bowl as fast as possible, he could make an impact.

[msp83]

Alastair Cook goes, that has to be it for England!.

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