India v England, First Test Thread

[msp83]

First topic message reminder :

India won the toss and are batting.
No surprises with the teams.
India
Gautam Gambhir
Virender Sehwag
Cheteshwar Pujara
Sachin Tendulkar
Virat Kohli
Yuvraj Singh
MS Dhoni
R Ashwin
Zaheer Khan
Pragyan Ojha
Umesh Yadav.
No Monty for England and Compton is having his debut.
Nick Compton
Alastair Cook
Jonathan Trott
Kevin Pietersen
Ian Bell
Samit Patel
Matt Prior
Tim Bresnan
Stuart Broad
Graeme Swann
James Anderson.
The pitch seems dry and should take turn.

[Guest]

i want 5 bowlers as well, however i feel that wont happen until bell's back..

compton and bairstow are relavtive newbie's...trott, and KP are out of form.....

[gboycottnut]

KPF, Rahul Dravid was mention on commentary that the Mumbai Pitch might have a little bit of grass so that it would stay together for the first 3 days and that it would turn from day one otherwise. If that is the case, I would rather have a grass less pitch. But if there is grass, then England might have to keep the 3 seamer attack, particularly if Finn's fit.
Now on meaker, yes the guy has pace, but he is more like our Varun Aaron, has the pace but not much else, from what I saw in the ODIs here last year. What do you say, guildford?

manjrekar confirmed the same that they leave some grass to hold the pitch together else it disintegrates too fast....like it did in 2005-06 vs. Aus...neverthless it will turn from D1.

but some minimal grass means some help for seamers who can bowl fast in the air and bend their backs.....that's why I said the minimum they need to get in the side is Finn and Meaker as seamers and Monty + Swann as spinners....anything more is upto Flower...how he gets them in is also upto Flower

It's not the quantity but quality of bowling that.

3 Real test match quality bowlers for these conditions are more valuable than 5 notional bowlers

That then doesn't include Stuart Broad as he clearly isn't playing like a test match quality bowler at the moment nor has he done so for a long time now. The best bowling attack England have I believe is 3 seamers in Anderson, Finn and Bresnan with 2 spinners in Swann and Panesar.

[msp83]

"India's captain, MS Dhoni, appeared to allow himself a veiled attack on the umpires when he said his side was made to take "more than ten wickets" to get England out. After enforcing the follow-on, India bowled 154.3 overs in the second innings to dismiss England, and then chased 77 to take a 1-0 lead in the four-Test series.

India's spinners had several good shouts for lbw turned down, and with DRS not employed they had no choice but to take their medicine. Dhoni did not take it entirely happily. "It was hard work for them, especially if you are expected to take more than ten wickets to get the team out," he said at the presentation ceremony."
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/story/592012.html
The umpiring wasn't the best in this match, but perhaps Dhoni should call up Mr Srinivasan and have a word rather than doing this? Or is it his way of sending a message to the BCCI?

[KP_fan]

Is Bresnan a better bowler than for Indian conditions than Meaker and Onions?

Else it is another notional selection that will bite England.
They cannot carry notional selections passengers.....everyone in the eleven should make it count....in a tough series when trying to get close to the opponent.

also I believe from what I have seen of both....Morgan is far better a batsman against spin than Bairstow......please no-one throw stats to prove otherwise.....

Pick Morgan and give him the license to be positive and he will deliver a 70odd like yuvraj did

[msp83]

Sir Ian Botham believes Stuart Broad should be dropped for the next match.

[gboycottnut]

I think I'm going to take the gamble and go down the five bowlers route. Pitch should be good, and I think that both 1 spinner and 2 seamers would be mistakes.

Therefore, I come to:

1 Cook 2 Compton 3 Trott 4 KP 5 Bairstow 6 Prior 7 Broad 8 Swann 9 Anderson 10 Finn 11 Panesar

I'm worried about the tail, but really I think Finn (extra pace) and Panesar (a better second spin option for if the seamers are having an awful day, like Day 1) have to play, so either way you spin it you're going to have Anderson (who's far too good to drop), Finn and Monty 9, 10 and 11.

Broad has batted 7 before, and hopefully the responsibility will see him rediscover his early batting temperament - of late I think he's overhit a bit.

Bairstow replaces Patel because I don't think Patel should bat five, and with Monty in the side his bowling becomes totally useless.

When selecting the side, you end up going round in circles a bit - 'I want two spinners, but I also want three seamers, but that'll weaken the tail too much, so Samit'll have to do Monty's job'. But in this Test that hasn't worked and I think we need to cover all options a bit more in our bowling attack.

But isn't there a case also for playing Patel as a specialist batsman only, as he is a better player of spin bowling than either Bairstow and Morgan. Also to be fair to Patel, he did get absolute shocking LBW decisions in both innings in the first test, which if they didn't happen would probably have meant that he scored at least 40+ runs in both innings.

[KP_fan]

"India's captain, MS Dhoni, appeared to allow himself a veiled attack on the umpires when he said his side was made to take "more than ten wickets" to get England out. After enforcing the follow-on, India bowled 154.3 overs in the second innings to dismiss England, and then chased 77 to take a 1-0 lead in the four-Test series.

India's spinners had several good shouts for lbw turned down, and with DRS not employed they had no choice but to take their medicine. Dhoni did not take it entirely happily. "It was hard work for them, especially if you are expected to take more than ten wickets to get the team out," he said at the presentation ceremony."
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/story/592012.html
The umpiring wasn't the best in this match, but perhaps Dhoni should call up Mr Srinivasan and have a word rather than doing this? Or is it his way of sending a message to the BCCI?

I don't think incompetence can be forgiven or ignored for the lack of DRS.

that said......Dhoni is driving his agenda to put Aleem Dar under pressure after their visible altercation on field.

also.....the overall umpiring has not been any more controversial then it becomes with DRS. The umpires were comptent and in the end the good and bad LBWs evened out.

[guildfordbat]

When selecting the side, you end up going round in circles a bit - 'I want two spinners, but I also want three seamers, but that'll weaken the tail too much, so Samit'll have to do Monty's job'. But in this Test that hasn't worked and I think we need to cover all options a bit more in our bowling attack.

Shelsey - I emphasised very similar to ''going round in circles a bit'' on the Test Ratings thread. I don't think we can currently pick a side without potential risk or weakness. From your side, I would be inclined to play Patel over Broad (or Bresnan as LondonTiger suggested) - that should give greater batting strength although I concede we would like more seam options. Circular, eh ....

[gboycottnut]

England's best players of spin bowling in these slow turning conditions are Cook, Compton, Trott, Pietersen, Prior and Patel. Therefore these must be the top 6 for the next test. Not sure that Morgan can handle batting in the slow turning wickets with 4 men around the bat as was the case in the UAE V Pakistan. The same applies to Bairstow.

[guildfordbat]

Now on meaker, yes the guy has pace, but he is more like our Varun Aaron, has the pace but not much else, from what I saw in the ODIs here last year. What do you say, guildford?

Msp - I believe Meaker will be a successful Test match bowler. He has genuine pace and can at times get reverse swing. He's also an intelligent bowler who listens and learns. Against that, he's pretty inexperienced currently so don't expect total consistency now. I said a week or so ago that this series has probably come a year too soon for him.

I wouldn't judge him too much on his ODIs. In some ways, that was a very strange international selection. Surrey regard him as their leading strike bowler in four day Championship games but often leave him out of their one day team. Mike Selig suggested England called him up initially to the ODI squad to get a decent look and feel of him rather than because of his limited overs prowess. I think that's right.

[alfie]

Amazingly I agree with gboycottnut about the best attack on current form for the second Test - assuming similar conditions. It does make me nervous about the long tail , however. Especially as there are two very inexperienced players in the top five bats already.

I don't think there is a perfect solution to the team balance conundrum : I have no time for the two pacers , two spinners plan - it simply won't do for England , against Indian batsmen in their own conditions - it nearly didn't even work for India , after they made England follow on , despite their much publicized frailties against spin bowling. But unless the obligatory three seamers , whichever ones are picked , bowl much better in the next match than they did here , it is hard to see them knocking India over , if the pitch is again flat. Which suggests picking the second spinner and sacrificing a batsman...trouble is I suspect this will then lead to a reluctance to include Finn , who I think I would like to see tried...
Of course some are saying the next pitch will give more help to all bowlers , including a bit more bounce for the quicks. I will believe that when I see it , though that would perhaps enable England to play the team I think they would like to select , ie Cook.Compton.Trott.KP.Bairstow.Patel.Prior.Broad.Swann.Anderson.Finn.

Mind you it won't make any difference unless they bat properly, though Bell has gone anyway , Patel is due some luck , Trott is better than he showed here , and surely KP will take his brains to the crease next time ? So there is hope...

[gboycottnut]

Amazingly I agree with gboycottnut about the best attack on current form for the second Test - assuming similar conditions. It does make me nervous about the long tail , however. Especially as there are two very inexperienced players in the top five bats already.

I don't think there is a perfect solution to the team balance conundrum : I have no time for the two pacers , two spinners plan - it simply won't do for England , against Indian batsmen in their own conditions - it nearly didn't even work for India , after they made England follow on , despite their much publicized frailties against spin bowling. But unless the obligatory three seamers , whichever ones are picked , bowl much better in the next match than they did here , it is hard to see them knocking India over , if the pitch is again flat. Which suggests picking the second spinner and sacrificing a batsman...trouble is I suspect this will then lead to a reluctance to include Finn , who I think I would like to see tried...
Of course some are saying the next pitch will give more help to all bowlers , including a bit more bounce for the quicks. I will believe that when I see it , though that would perhaps enable England to play the team I think they would like to select , ie Cook.Compton.Trott.KP.Bairstow.Patel.Prior.Broad.Swann.Anderson.Finn.

Mind you it won't make any difference unless they bat properly, though Bell has gone anyway , Patel is due some luck , Trott is better than he showed here , and surely KP will take his brains to the crease next time ? So there is hope...

Thanks.
However I don't agree with your team above. Bairstow is not good enough yet to be risked in a test match V India on a slow turning wicket, and Broad so be nowhere near the team at the moment as he just isn't playing at the level which justifies his place at number 7 in the all-rounder's role. I believe that a batting unit of Cook, Compton, Trott, Pietersen, Patel and Prior should be enough to help England post at least 350+ runs on the board in the first innings and if they can't manage this well I just can't see any other batting unit combination that Flower or the selectors come up with do any better.

[alfie]

I didn't actually say that was my team , gbn ...it is the team I think Flower and co would prefer...

I am still undecided on my selection , but I doubt they will give me a vote on it anyway

You may have a point about Bairstow , though he can hardly do any worse than poor Bell ! Morgan is an alternative , but many would say Bairstow has earned his chance first - assuming they want the extra batsman.

As I say , I want to see the pitch first . Until then I'm sitting resolutely on the fence...

[gboycottnut]

I didn't actually say that was my team , gbn ...it is the team I think Flower and co would prefer...

I am still undecided on my selection , but I doubt they will give me a vote on it anyway

You may have a point about Bairstow , though he can hardly do any worse than poor Bell ! Morgan is an alternative , but many would say Bairstow has earned his chance first - assuming they want the extra batsman.

As I say , I want to see the pitch first . Until then I'm sitting resolutely on the fence...

But Morgan was a disaster in the UAE V Pakistan in similar playing conditions so I can't see him doing any better than someone like Patel who was harshly given out in both innings.

[alfie]

Can't see Morgan replacing Patel ; however he is a potential alternative to Bairstow for the job of replacing Bell.

Agree Patel would be unlucky to be dropped , considering his form on the tour. Don't think he will be , unless England (a) select five pure bowlers and (b) think Bairstow or Morgan offer more in batting and fielding than Patel , if his bowling is no longer considered necessary. I'd be surprised if both those choices were made , but it is I suppose one of the possibilities.

Truly , the only seven players I am sure of are Cook/Compton/Trott/Pietersen/Prior/Swann/Anderson...it is possible to make a case for pretty well any of the other members of the touring party to fill the last four spots. But Patel would be the eighth one picked , for me.

[Shelsey93]

Patel would be somewhat unlucky BUT

i/ If we plan Swann and Panesar (I personally think we will) his bowling becomes utterly unnecessary
ii/ He's not a number five by any means.

The lbw decisions were both wrong, but he was also wrongly given not out once and seemed to get stuck on the crease badly against Yadav.

[guildfordbat]

In the words of Michael Caine at the end of The Italian Job, ''Hang on, lads, I've got an idea ...''.

There's this batsman down at Essex, bowls a bit of tidy seam up - Ravi Bopara ....

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Reaklly though Bopara and Patel seem to be cut form tehs ame cloth. They are both well capable of scroing heavily at first class level, and their bowling is adequate in short forms, but seem to fold like a pancake every time they are presneted with the pressure of a test or importnat game.

Some players are better in tough situations, these guys seem to be the new Mark Ramprakashes.

The amount of runs Patel scored made it nigh on impossibel to leave him out, he seems to offer the perfect balance. Right up till after the test match when you look at what he returned.

[VTR]

Great shout on Ravi. Call him up as Bell's replacement (surely that's allowed) and he can be in the side for the second Test. Two first ball ducks will at least eat up a bit of time as we try to bat 200 overs again to save the game. If we end up 9 down then Ravi can say he's played his part.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

If Patel gets dropped it has to be bring Panessar in. It would be absurd to go into the next test with only 1 spinner of any kind.

[Stella]

Panaser in for Patel, Morgan in for Bell, Finn in for Broad.

[Guest]

[Shelsey93]

There is a serious point with Bopara, I think.

His seam up is, for me, as good as that of Rikki Clarke - somebody people have been calling for on Twitter. And, in my view, his batting is much better. In Asia he could do a good job.

The problem would again be the lack of slack people are willing to cut him, and a feeling that he cracks under pressure.

There won't be a replacement for Bell. We already have two more spare batsmen than we'd normally have: a result of a bit of planning ahead and the return of KP after the original squad had been announced.

[VTR]

People are calling for Rikki Clarke, you do have to wonder don't you? We've been trounced in the First Test but things can't be that bad surely?!

Bell was terrible in the first game (maybe distracted - he's only human) so good that he's off as whoever comes in can't really do any worse, that first innings brain fade in particular.

[Shelsey93]

Bell's first innings shot was totally horrendous (I was going to say unforgiveable, but I'm too forgiving). In the second innings he played quite nicely for his 20-odd I thought.

Had he not been going back I wouldn't have dropped him, but now he's vacated his place Bairstow can keep it if he goes well in Mumbai.

[VTR]

20-odd isn't good enough though, as one of the senior batsmen getting in he needed to go on. Didn't he play across the line to be out lbw in the second innings? (Might be wrong on that)

Anyway, I fail to believe with such a big life event coming up he has been "all there". Looking at it now, perhaps he should have came in after the second test or missed the tour altogether. Now we have to play someone else who has not faced the Indian spinners so is likely to fail.

[Shelsey93]

Oh, I'm not saying that 20 was good enough!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

There is a serious point with Bopara, I think.

His seam up is, for me, as good as that of Rikki Clarke - somebody people have been calling for on Twitter. And, in my view, his batting is much better. In Asia he could do a good job.

The problem would again be the lack of slack people are willing to cut him, and a feeling that he cracks under pressure.

There won't be a replacement for Bell. We already have two more spare batsmen than we'd normally have: a result of a bit of planning ahead and the return of KP after the original squad had been announced.

What si the serious point? Is he suddenly a better bat with a better record than bell? Are we seriously suggesting that his bowling is a threat a test level on any kind of pitch?

Bell may have had a bad game but replacing himn witha falkey batsman with a sh1t record and mental problems isnt suddenly going to help Swann develope a googly.

[Duty281]

"India's captain, MS Dhoni, appeared to allow himself a veiled attack on the umpires when he said his side was made to take "more than ten wickets" to get England out. After enforcing the follow-on, India bowled 154.3 overs in the second innings to dismiss England, and then chased 77 to take a 1-0 lead in the four-Test series.

India's spinners had several good shouts for lbw turned down, and with DRS not employed they had no choice but to take their medicine. Dhoni did not take it entirely happily. "It was hard work for them, especially if you are expected to take more than ten wickets to get the team out," he said at the presentation ceremony."
http://www.espncricinfo.com/india-v-england-2012/content/current/story/592012.html
The umpiring wasn't the best in this match, but perhaps Dhoni should call up Mr Srinivasan and have a word rather than doing this? Or is it his way of sending a message to the BCCI?

I don't think incompetence can be forgiven or ignored for the lack of DRS.

that said......Dhoni is driving his agenda to put Aleem Dar under pressure after their visible altercation on field.

also.....the overall umpiring has not been any more controversial then it becomes with DRS. The umpires were comptent and in the end the good and bad LBWs evened out.

If DRS was in, then we'd have had a perfect game umpiring-wise. They were no 50/50 decisions so there would have been no mistakes. We all know the one Indian batsman that opposes DRS, he's probably the most selfish man in World Cricket. Hope the BCCI stand up to him.

[msp83]

Bopara? I would just reproduce VTR's comment above.

"Great shout on Ravi. Call him up as Bell's replacement (surely that's allowed) and he can be in the side for the second Test. Two first ball ducks will at least eat up a bit of time as we try to bat 200 overs again to save the game. If we end up 9 down then Ravi can say he's played his part."
I am absolutely sure guildford just wanted to keep the debate going!.

[guildfordbat]

Ravi Bopara is a talented and valuable all round player who much brings much needed balance to the make up of the England Test side.

PS I'm sure that will always be the case whilst he's not being picked.

[Shelsey93]

I defended Bops last summer and still think he's a good player. In all honesty he shouldn't be on this tour - he was mentally shot after rushing back too quickly from whatever his personal issues were last summer. But he's not a bad player.

I never said have him ahead of Bell either, by the way!

[VTR]

The batting stocks seem a bit bare but joking aside surely we can all agree there is no case for Bopara to ever play Tests again! No issue with him in the ODI side, there's nothing wrong with being an ODI specialist, I'd like to see us improve in that form of the game and have a crack at the World Cup.

Good point by guildford about being a better player whilst not picked. I think that applies to Monty as well. Doubt he would have ran through India in that first innings. And he didn't save us when he came in during the Winter as the media seem to be making out. In fact we lost all three Tests he played in!

[KP_fan]

I see Bopara being discussed......well he will be faster than 122kph Bresnan

[msp83]

Bopara isn't even as good as Patel. Don't think Ravi ever will bowl 30 overs in a test innings!.
The case for Panesar I don't think, is too much him being able to run through the Indian lineup. Its more about him being able to maintain esonable control, keep things relatively quiet and thus along with Swann build some pressure that could lead to wickets either for himself or for Swann. Bresnan and Broad both failed to provide that control and the conditions didn't offer them a great deal. Samit is not a material for a regular 2nd spinner. His bowling is better than parttime, but its not really consistent test quality. Could be a 3rd spinner, not more than that. On seaming tracks, if his batting holds up, he could be a handy 2nd spinner to Swann and deliver a few overs time and again.

[ShankyCricket]

I am disappointed, though not at all surprised to see the "Panesar camp" attributing this performance to his absence. This wasn't really what I'd call a "turning track". This was a slow, low, turner. A turning track is supposed to have turn and bounce. This was a track on which Cook and Prior played Ashwin (who is a far better spinner than Panesar) with ease on a Day 4 track. So its hard to fathom the logic that an inferior spinner would've troubled better players of spin than Cook or Prior on a Day 1 track. I think the team selection was spot on for the first Test. Bresnan bowled well in the warm ups and indeed outbowled Panesar in those warm up tracks on tracks quite similar to the pitch for the 1st Test. So its hard to believe why he'd have done any better in the Test. Yadav and Zak showed quite clearly that seamers can take wickets in these conditions. The problem with our seamers was that they bowled poorly. I don't see any reason to abandon the 3 seamer formula though I believe that Broad has used up his credit and a quick bowler should replace him. If fit, Finn obviously. If not, then I'd take a gamble on Meaker, who is similar to Yadav. I maintain that Panesar would not have made any difference in the 1st Test but I might bring him in for the 2nd Test purely because I'm concerned about Swann's workload and despite my skepticism over Monty's wicket taking ability, he can be expected to hold an end up and if the track really crumbles, take a few wickets in the 2nd innings. Its not as if the replacement batsmen inspire any confidence.

[msp83]

Shanky, that is precisely the point. Bresnan has been bowling poorly for some time. Despite a few decent outings against the West Indies, the pace and nip that made him an attractive package are gone for some time. He did alright against weak warm up sides, even then he never ran through their batting.
Bresnan continued to bowl at a fairly average pace throughout the match, didn't really trouble any of the Indian batsman, and even didn't maintain a consistent line and length. On a first day track all that Cook was able to use him was for 10 poor poor overs where as Samit had bowled 14.
It was 50-50 between Panesar and Bresnan for the first test, and whichever way the team management would have gone was understandable and had a logic of its own. But after Bresnan's poor outing, there is absolutely no justification whatsoever to picking him regardless of the fitness situation with Finn. If Finn's available he should be in for either Broad or Bresnan. If both Broad and Bresnan are to go out, then Panesar should come in. If only one of them would go out then it has to be Bresnan either for a fit again Finn or if he's unavailable, then Panesar. So the Panesar situation for me is all about Finn's availability and the remaining credit for Stuart Broad.

[KP_fan]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/20393408

Ian Botham and Stuart Broad in Twitter spat
Sir Ian Botham has hit out at Stuart Broad after the England bowler reacted angrily to criticism of his form.

After England's defeat by India in the first Test, Broad tweeted: "Before you listen to too many ex-playing 'experts' being negative, ask them if they ever won a Test series in India...#28years."

Botham then sent a tweet to Broad, criticising his overseas performances.

He wrote: "Didn't average 40+ with the ball overseas! Not sure what I scored vs India with the bat? #justsaying"

Botham, England's record wicket-taker with 383 victims, had a batting average of 61.55 and a bowling average of 25.53 in seven Tests in India from 1980-2.

He sat out the 1984-85 tour, when David Gower's men clinched England's last victory in the Asian nation.

The two sides of Stuart Broad
Home Away


Batting av.
34.52
14.86

Bowling av.
28.74
41.71


During his earlier post-match analysis for Sky Sports, Botham had left Broad out of his England team for the second Test, starting on Friday in Mumbai.

Broad failed to take a wicket in Ahmedabad and was dismissed for three on the final day as England crumbled to a nine-wicket defeat.

He now averages 41.71 with the ball overseas and just 14.86 with the bat, compared to his home records of 28.74 and 34.52 respectively.

Botham called for England to make four changes for the second Test.

He wants to see Steven Finn, Monty Panesar, Eoin Morgan and Jonny Bairstow brought in for Broad, Tim Bresnan, Samit Patel and Ian Bell, who is flying home to attend the birth of his child.

Broad later tweeted to play down the row.

He wrote: "Spat with @BeefyBotham?? What spat? Love Beefy, best bowler England have ever had, then add his batting. Twitter is funny at times!"

[ShankyCricket]

If Finn is unavailable, then Meaker has to come in rather than Panesar. Yadav has quite clearly shown the importance of pace in this series. 2 plus 2 is still not a viable option for me. I'd pick Panesar, as I said above, but instead of Bairstow in a 5 man attack consisting of 3 seamers and 2 spinners. Not 2+2.

I'd go in with the same team combination as Shelsey except for a couple of changes in personnel. Patel over Bairstow, as a pure batsman in these conditions. Nothing to do with Patel's bowling. The other change I'd make to Shelsey's team is Bresnan over Broad. The rest is fine. If Finn is not fit, Meaker.

[KP_fan]

cook admits selection mistakes....well captain cook, the horse has already bolted fot T1.
the Pefromance Director takes the credit for successes and sends you to admit mistakes....


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/cricket/20392224

[Duty281]

It would be better for Bopara if he didn't play. As Panesar has proved, 7 more tests of Bopara not playing will surely elevate him to our best batsman come the first test of the Ashes.

Joking aside, Bopara should not play Test Cricket for England again. ODIs and T20s are fine.

[KP_fan]

aren't Saqlian Mustaq, Mustaq Ahmed and Azhar Mehmood not eligible now for England selecxtion ?

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