England v SA - KO 14:30 Sat 24th NOV at HQ - Match Thread/Build Up etc....

[HERSH]

First topic message reminder :

Feel free to discuss this game and any other aspect involving the England Rugby team good or bad as your opinions count and you won't be judged (by me) if you go against England, but do try to give a reason!

Please respect other posters opinions

Game 1: Eng v Fiji 54-12 World class performance.
Game 2: Eng v Aus 14-20 We was robbed, by ourselves.
Game 3: Eng v SA ??-??
Game 4: Eng v NZ ??-??

England team to face South Africa:

Alex Goode (Saracens, 4 caps);
Chris Ashton (Saracens, 27 caps),
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps),
Brad Barritt (Saracens, 9 caps),
Mike Brown (Harlequins, 9 caps);
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers, 52 caps),
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 26 caps);
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish, 16 caps),
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 2 caps),
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 33 caps),
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 2 caps),
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers, 10 caps),
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 11 caps),
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt, 10 caps),
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 7 caps).

Replacements: David Paice (London Irish, 4 caps), David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 21 caps), Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 2 caps), Mouritz Botha (Saracens, 9 caps), James Haskell (London Wasps, 43 caps), Danny Care (Harlequins, 35 caps), Owen Farrell (Saracens, 10 caps), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 3 caps).


South Africa team:
Z Kirchner (Blue Bulls);
JP Pietersen (Sharks),
J de Jongh (Western Province),
J de Villiers (Western Province, captain),
F Hougaard (Blue Bulls);
P Lambie (Sharks),
R Pienaar (Ulster);
G Steenkamp (Toulouse),
A Strauss (Cheetahs),
J du Plessis (Sharks),
E Etzebeth (Western Province),
J Kruger (Blue Bulls),
F Louw (Bath),
W Alberts (Sharks),
D Vermeulen (Western Province).

Replacements: S Brits (Saracens), H van der Merwe (Leinster), P Cilliers (Western Province), F van der Merwe (Blue Bulls), M Coetzee (Sharks), E Jantjies (Golden Lions), J Taute (Golden Lions), L Mvovo (Sharks).

[Ozzy3213]

I have been critical of Tom Youngs and his throwing, but he cannot be solely blamed for England's lineout woes on Saturday. There were at least 2 occasions where he was throwing to Tom Wood and the ball was stolen or disrupted, where it looked to me like a timing issue with the lifters/jumper. This is always likely to happen when you change a prop, lock and flanker from the previous week.

Also, once it was clear that he had the yips then what should have happened is Parling should have shortened the lineout and given him some banker balls to throw.

Set piece is a team effort, and dominance is rarely down to one man, likewise being dominated is rarely a single individuals fault.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I have been critical of Tom Youngs and his throwing, but he cannot be solely blamed for England's lineout woes on Saturday. There were at least 2 occasions where he was throwing to Tom Wood and the ball was stolen or disrupted, where it looked to me like a timing issue with the lifters/jumper. This is always likely to happen when you change a prop, lock and flanker from the previous week.

Also, once it was clear that he had the yips then what should have happened is Parling should have shortened the lineout and given him some banker balls to throw.

Set piece is a team effort, and dominance is rarely down to one man, likewise being dominated is rarely a single individuals fault.

....unless its Cirpiani

[Ozzy3213]

I have been critical of Tom Youngs and his throwing, but he cannot be solely blamed for England's lineout woes on Saturday. There were at least 2 occasions where he was throwing to Tom Wood and the ball was stolen or disrupted, where it looked to me like a timing issue with the lifters/jumper. This is always likely to happen when you change a prop, lock and flanker from the previous week.

Also, once it was clear that he had the yips then what should have happened is Parling should have shortened the lineout and given him some banker balls to throw.

Set piece is a team effort, and dominance is rarely down to one man, likewise being dominated is rarely a single individuals fault.

....unless its Cirpiani

Goes without saying!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Surely the players need to question themselves in Attack also.

Ashton should have pinned his ears back and gone for it...instead of throwing that stupid pass back to Brown (i think)
Also had he done so and been tackled...he still would have had brown outside him to pass too!

Its not a coaches fault if players cant make the correct decisions ON THE PITCH....

Cant blame Parling for some of those throws by youngs...truely bad.

Im more with Greenwood on this one....Brown was suppossed to be further infield, Ashton expected him to be there running onto the pass not running away from it. Hes not a winger, but this also shows (as mentioned above in a different context) the problem with constantly chopping the side around.
England have started 3 scrum halves, 3 Fly halves, 3 ICs, 3 OCs, 6 wingers and 3 fullbacks (not to mention a host of bench options) in Lancasters 11 games so far. They were a raw unit to start with, it may be a slight excuse for the coaches that they just havent had the time to get the group working as a unit properly ...but then could they be critisized for being too ready with the axe?

[Ozzy3213]

Irrespective of whether Brown ran the right line or not, Ashton passed way to early, he needed to commit the defender who was closing him down before passing, and the pass needed to be better. It was just poor rugby all round from the moment Manu gave it Ashton.

[Geordie]

But why was Ashton looking to pass anyway?? There was a bloody great gap...JP Pietersen or Habana would have licked their lips...at that opportunity...

[Cyril]

But why was Ashton looking to pass anyway?? There was a bloody great gap...JP Pietersen or Habana would have licked their lips...at that opportunity...

I wondered that too. Maybe a sign of a lack of confidence? It's good that he had his head up, but I wondered whether he should have just pinned his ears back and gambled. Even drawing the man and playing a good pass to Brown I don't think it would have led directly to a try.

[gregortree]

Our centres & wings need to be taken out for passing practice all this week.
Tui can't / won't pass, ditto Brad, and Ashton does not often need to. Either way they need some extra practice & coaching by... Catt ? I guess.

[mystiroakey]

its gonna be a brawl v NZ- i cannot wiat for this game

I garantee we push em..

[HERSH]

One of the All Blacks tries on Saturday was a carbon copy of what a PE teacher would teach a group of 11 year olds who have never touched a rugby ball before, run straight and pass the ball along the line.

Something I don't think England could do in the rain.

[gregortree]

We could against Wales Hersh

[HERSH]

Really!

I really don't think England could run the length of a rugby pitch at speed and pass the ball along the line.

[gregortree]

Hersh,
I agree really. I said on another thread back to the paddock with all the 3/4 for some passing practice. Barritt, Tui, Ashton can't seem to pass. Brown may as well join in too, and Farrell could use passing practice.
(Burns passes & kicks nicely btw )

Flood - copy a Jonny and do 40 hours of obsessive kicking practice this week.

[bluestonevedder]

I thought the worst part of Ashton's game at the weekend was his handling. He did well coming infield and looking for work, and ran some nice lines, but his hands were awful!

His pass to Brown was atrocious for an international winger, even though Brown should have moved in closer for the pass. He knocked and a lot too...

[mystiroakey]

everyones handle was shocking in all hoensty- and the only reason the freak try happened was also due to this- some crazy pinball stuff going on.

I was blaming england- but looking back SA were actually just as bad.. so maybe it was just conditions!

[gregortree]

Millenium had a roof allowing ABs to catch a dry ball.

Twickenham was exposed to the weather, so handling looked like 'oldschool' mud rugby at times. Both sides at Twick suffered. The pinball try.. well a Bokke finally caught it so fair play to him for grippy hands.

[bluestonevedder]

Yeh, maybe you're right, maybe I'm just being unnecessarily harsh!

[HERSH]

But guys these are basic skills that players at this level should be able to do, wet or dry conditions.

[Bathman_in_London]

Lets be honest, England's basic skills have looked poor in all weather conditions in the last couple of years.

[HERSH]

Thats down to some of these players thinking they are above basic skills.

If I was SL i'd get the rubber coated brick out and make them play with that this week.

[Effervescing Elephant]

Rubber coated? You're going soft Hersh!

[gregortree]

BURNS
England fly-half Toby Flood will not be fit to face New Zealand on Saturday, opening the way for Freddie Burns to feature in the match-day squad.
Flood sustained ligament damage in his big toe against South Africa and will not recover in time.

Burns + 3/4 'passing and catching while chewing gum' training = exciting times.

[HERSH]

Rubber coated? You're going soft Hersh!

H&S rules I'm afraid!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

If I was SL i'd get the rubber coated brick out and make them play with that this week.

Haskells already in the sqaud

[Bathman_in_London]

If I was SL i'd get the rubber coated brick out and make them play with that this week.

Haskells already in the sqaud

very good!

[damage_13]

so.... about the handling/passing question.....

Why do Englands Hookers and scrum halves no-longer wear gloves like Tommo and Dawson ..?

[HERSH]

Because in their heads they are above the skills those guys had.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

so.... about the handling/passing question.....

Why do Englands Hookers and scrum halves no-longer wear gloves like Tommo and Dawson ..?

Beacuse they saw how useless Ben Kays were?

[Bathman_in_London]

I assumed it was for the same reason that no-one wears those nose strips anymore ie they were never that good!

[Effervescing Elephant]

Andy Goode still wears those little mitts. Never fails to wind me up and i don't know why!!!!!

[Geordie]

I assumed it was for the same reason that no-one wears those nose strips anymore ie they were never that good!

And now they just cover the front of the their shirt in vicks or whatever...which looks like a geet big nasal disaster....

[dummy_half]

Andy Goode still wears those little mitts. Never fails to wind me up and i don't know why!!!!!

That's just to protect his hands from the ketchup on his pies .

More seriously, my impression from watching the highlights of the match was that it's a game England could have won, but the little things went against them - Flood missed a couple of very kickable penalties, the SA try had a big slice of luck, Flood's kick through for Manu T drifting out, and we lacked handling precision at times in attack.

I also wondered why Ashton didn't just pin back his ears and go for the line after Manu's break. At worst, Brown would have been in support if the cover defence got to him, whereas the pass to Brown just lost all the momentum of the move. Even then we got reasonable recycled ball but the next pass went to a forward standing still (HOW MANY TIMES ).

Similarly, when Brown made his good break, Ashton was working really hard to get into a good support position, but they just couldn't find the hole in the defence that would have allowed them to get in for the score.

I thought the physical effort of the team was very good, standing up well to the most physical team in world rugby. The problem was that the skill levels were insufficient to exploit this.

[Bathman_in_London]

Andy Goode still wears those little mitts. Never fails to wind me up and i don't know why!!!!!

That's just to protect his hands from the ketchup on his pies .

More seriously, my impression from watching the highlights of the match was that it's a game England could have won, but the little things went against them - Flood missed a couple of very kickable penalties, the SA try had a big slice of luck, Flood's kick through for Manu T drifting out, and we lacked handling precision at times in attack.

I also wondered why Ashton didn't just pin back his ears and go for the line after Manu's break. At worst, Brown would have been in support if the cover defence got to him, whereas the pass to Brown just lost all the momentum of the move. Even then we got reasonable recycled ball but the next pass went to a forward standing still (HOW MANY TIMES ).
Similarly, when Brown made his good break, Ashton was working really hard to get into a good support position, but they just couldn't find the hole in the defence that would have allowed them to get in for the score.

I thought the physical effort of the team was very good, standing up well to the most physical team in world rugby. The problem was that the skill levels were insufficient to exploit this.

I was talking about this yesterday at work, a real difference between NZ and any NH country seems to be that when we have an attacking postition or turnover ball, we find a stationary prop and the move breaks down. NZ on the other hand seem to always have the right players in the right place at the right time. Plus they are normally moving at pace.

[gregortree]

Yes, you mean like England back row 2001-2003.
Or even the whole pack for that matter.
How TF did we lose the ability to continue with that style of play ?

[OzT]

The forwards retired gregotree, as well as the coach, I think that was why. I remember as a kid being coached and the coach showing us photos of the All Black's forwards in games (before days of videos) and saying look, anywhere in the field you could throw a blanket over them. Forwards works well as a pack. After 2003 besides the personalls changing, I think there was a general mood to make England 'exciting', which I felt was wrong. Ten men rugby got them where they were (with a backs to take advantages of any holes) and they should have stuck to it, why change a winning pattern? Very much like the 91 final, when they changed their style that had served them well in the runup to the final and lost to the Wallabies.

[gregortree]

ABs (always) and England (2002) played 15 man rugby.
Look at the England tries of that period. Youtube vid somewhere.
Here in fact if you ain't too busy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2USK9DolxU

EVERONE was running, passing, scoring.
We lost the plot since.

[Bathman_in_London]

Brian Ashton was the backs/attacks coach at the time and to be honest the people we have had since just havent been the same at all. He was very good at getting players to think on their feet rather than just playing to a play book. This giving responsibilty to the players backfired on him in 2007 of course.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Thing is its a lot easier to play like that when you are the btter side, or at least on parity, as England were then.

When your players are slower, less skilled, less well drilled, less fit, and getting beasted by your opponents its fairly inevitable you will retreat into playing percentage rugby. England havent been getting stuffed by as much against NZ since they stopped employing Brian Ashton.

[Geordie]

The forwards retired gregotree, as well as the coach, I think that was why. I remember as a kid being coached and the coach showing us photos of the All Black's forwards in games (before days of videos) and saying look, anywhere in the field you could throw a blanket over them. Forwards works well as a pack. After 2003 besides the personalls changing, I think there was a general mood to make England 'exciting', which I felt was wrong. Ten men rugby got them where they were (with a backs to take advantages of any holes) and they should have stuck to it, why change a winning pattern? Very much like the 91 final, when they changed their style that had served them well in the runup to the final and lost to the Wallabies.

Couldnt agree more with that. Trying to change Englands style is not going to work. We need to keep the big pack...with "efficient" backs who take chances.

To be perfectly honest i couldnt care less if we are "boring" , the "scurge " of world rugby..."ten man england".

Its effective, its our game so lets play it.

[gregortree]

15 man rugby is where it's at.

[Geordie]

For some it is...for others its not

[gregortree]

When England were no1 it was through playing blow'em away 15 man rugby.

When NZ were / are No1 (most of the time) it is through playing blow'em away 15 man rugby... (ok only needing 3rd gear lately).

There is a pattern.

[beshocked]

New Zealand just do the basics reallly well. Their execution is excellent.

The 1st try against Wales was a simple of execution of basic skills when the ball was recycled. Other sides particularly England don't seem to do this.

Nonu and Smith did nothing spectacular - just run in a straight line, draw the man and allow their 6 to score in the score.

If it was another side they probably would have squandered the overlap. Not NZ.

[gregortree]

15 men doing the basics very very well.
ABs did not need to get out of 2nd gear last Saturday.

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