England Team to Play the Boks

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So after a pretty humbling game against Australia we now know that changes definitely need to be made to the starting team to play SA. I'd like to see Lancaster use this game to try out a few bench players and some other squad players before the final game against the AB's.

Making the top four isn't even on the agenda at the moment, what needs to be done now is get a result against either SA or NZ. With the current 23 we aren't going to do this and if we don't try a few changes now then we'll keep backing out of making them until it's too late.

We need greater physicality in the forwards, more control and commitment at the breakdown and players who can draw a man and then pass.

1. Corbisiero- Maybe it's knee jerk to put him straight back in to the starting line up, but he's had two games back for LI now and watching Marler play really highlighted how comfy Corbs was in the 6N's
2. Youngs- He'll benefit from the added power and technique of Corbs alongside him and should have no problem matching the SA packs physicality
3. Cole- Needs to have a better game then Sat, as the most experienced forward in the pack he's going to need to start to get a grip on the guys around him soon and guide them.
4. Launchberry- Has looked comfy when he's come off the bench and will know at least a few of the opposition from his age grade rugby, I can't see him struggling agaisnt them if Eng let him go out and just do what he does best.
5. Parling- We need to have him starting as he works well with Youngs at lineout time, he's also starting to bring his carrying game to Int level
6. Wood- Can help compete against SA on the deck and brings a bit more mongrel to the pack then Johnson.
7. Robshaw- After his worst performance in the Red rose I expect a very good game, needs to hit the rucks more and get more turnovers, must keep Louw out of the game.
8. Waldrom- I really don't think he'll do well but I don't want too many changes, needs to keep hold of the ball and make the right choices more, and needs to work on his ball control at the base.
9. Care- More of the same really, keep kicking well and running when it's on.
10. Flood- You can run and or kick, not just one or other, needs to vary his game a bit more but still Englands best 10 by a mile and he can get a lot better.
11. Monye- Ashton was anonymous against Australia and has done nothing to get straight back in to the team, Monye will bring a lot more physicality to the side and far better defence out wide, he's also a lot better at chasing restarts.
12. Barritt- Needs to try to pass like a 10 or offload in contact more, but we need his tackling.
13. Manu- Just keep taking the ball at full pelt, when he does this he causes problems, keep offloading as well.
14. Sharples- Had a poor game against Oz so I expect a much better game this week, needs to be given some space to work though.
15. Goode- Has to enter the line more and force himself on the game, needs to work on his defence and defensive positioning too, but if he can start passing out to the wide men again we can caue the Boks some problems.

16. Marler
17. Wilson
18. Paice
19. Palmer
20. Haskell
21. Dickson
22. Farrel
23. Joseph

I actually think that England fans are, to an extent, blinded by Tualagi's potential - correctly, in some respects - but this can mean a lack of objectivity about where he features in a backline that Lancaster has shown every willingness to build around him.

I think that the calls for him to be moved to the wing are correct (Brian Moore in the Torygraph reiterates this). He cannot distribute a ball in the way that international quality centres have to and this is stunting England's ability to be effective in attack. He would have more space on the wing and wouldn't interrupt the passing line so much.

Hood83 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Hood how many times did you actually see an England forward steaming in at pace..in any angle...even our Captain took the ball frequently almost walking...a complete waste of time...

This is true.

I don't know how hard it is to coach that facet of the game, at any level.

The first thing my Dad taught me when he gave me a rugby ball was (firstly, never be a back! ) but NEVER stand still with the ball.

I would love to know what Mike Catt's been doing. Smash the line at pace, suck in defenders, create space for your faster backs on the outside. Simple.

It's the same old problem. Generating quick ball and building momentum.

England had their chances to win the game and put more points on the board.

It shouldn't be all doom and gloom. Got to give credit to Parling who have been critical of. He ran the lineout well. Youngs threw well too.

Ultimately I feel the buck stops with the forwards. England got into good attacking positions but gave away stupid penalties or turnovers largely due to not being competitive enough at the breakdown.

It's pretty obvious when both sides have largely parity in the set piece the breakdown battle's importance goes up a notch or two.

England should certainly start Launchbury in my opinion. I don't think Palmer contributed much at all.

Backrow - tough one. What's the right balance? Who should take most of the blame?

My opinion on the backs was there was poor decision making but they were not at all helped by their forwards.

People say let's throw in Joseph,Twelvetrees etc but they simply aren't as good defensively as Barritt and Tuilagi.

beshocked wrote:People say let's throw in Joseph,Twelvetrees etc but they simply aren't as good defensively as Barritt and Tuilagi.

I guess it's about balance as Barritt and Tuilagi are not as good offensively as 36 and JJ. Ultimately you need a bit of everything in there to make it work, and the acid test for Lancaster going forward is whether or not he can pick the right combinations to make us the best side we can be.

I think the backrow looked much better when Wood came on for Johnson. As much as I like Johnson and think he offers a different dimension to forward play, I reckon Wood has to start this weekend.

He made a real nuisance of himself, and really got in Phibbs face at the breakdown too. He's abrasive and we'll need that.

Launchbury to start too, but that's a given hopefully!

Ozzy3213 wrote:

beshocked wrote:People say let's throw in Joseph,Twelvetrees etc but they simply aren't as good defensively as Barritt and Tuilagi.

I guess it's about balance as Barritt and Tuilagi are not as good offensively as 36 and JJ. Ultimately you need a bit of everything in there to make it work, and the acid test for Lancaster going forward is whether or not he can pick the right combinations to make us the best side we can be.

Look the way I see it - experiment with the centres in the 6 nations. Less formidable opponents and more time for Twelvetrees and Joseph to prove they have what it takes.

No one in England can defend like Barritt can. No one can attack like Tuilagi can. The best defender and best attacker need to be persisted with.

Tuilagi has a one dimensional attacking game. He is not our best attacker.

Who is then? I know you think Joseph is a deity but that's club loyalty talking.

Most club fans talk up their own players but the stats rarely lie.

8 tries in 15 games is pretty good. Tuilagi is arguably one dimensional but he has a good try ratio.

He is a very dangerous attacking player although he needs a bit more creativity.

People also forget he's only 21.

beshocked wrote:Who is then? I know you think Joseph is a deity but that's club loyalty talking.

Most club fans talk up their own players but the stats rarely lie.

8 tries in 15 games is pretty good. Tuilagi is arguably one dimensional but he has a good try ratio.

He is a very dangerous attacking player although he needs a bit more creativity.

People also forget he's only 21.

Stats are rarely representative of true life and can be easily misinterpreted or skewed, especially in rugby where there are so many grey areas. Missed tackles, carries, tackles, turnovers are all very hard to define. Some people on this board are obsessed with stats, I much prefer to actually watch lots of rugby and form my own opinion (which is obviously very subjective).

Manu is still the best 13 we have by quite a distance, but his blinkers are starting to become a real problem. I would persist with him though and hope that he works on it. When Nonu first came on the scene, he was much the same, but now, with experience, he's good great hands and decision making skills.

True Bathite there is the context.

For example you might miss one tackle only but it leads to a try.

I like the stats as a sort of guideline. Doesn't tell you everything of course but it helps form and support an opinion.

Everyone could see Sharples had a poor day at the office defending - one of missed tackles was very costly - leading to Australia's try for example.

We agree that Tuilagi should be persisted with.

I watch quite a bit of rugby myself too but it's likely we focuss on different things and form different opinions.

It has nothing to do with club loyalty beshocked and everything to do with how players fit into a team. I am typing on my phone at the moment so explaining what I mean is difficult. Will go into detail when back at a computer.

thomh wrote:Tuilagi has areas to seriously improve (decision making most obviously) but I just can't understand why people would suggest dropping him or moving him out of position at this stage. He's been the most effective attacking player that we've brought in for years and has the potential to be even better. In terms of ball carrying, tackling and breakdown work none of the other centre options will ever get close to his level, whereas he probably can improve his distribution and decision making to reach their's.

I think his effectiveness is increasingly at the expense of the wider attacking effectiveness of the team. England need a balanced attacking game with a variety of try scoring threats, and the way Tuilagi holds the ball and is the fulcrum of our attacking game makes this difficult. England as a team do not score enough tries and the fact that Tuilagi has a decent try scoring record is little consolation.

As for breakdown work there's no doubt in my mind that, of the centres, Twelvetrees is the outstanding one in that regard. I also think Twelvetrees is becoming an excellent defender, and he has sufficient bulk and pace to carry better than Barritt, for instance, can.

England are fortunate to have a number of decent OCs. We don't have an established left wing. We are currnetly picking an OC who doesn't have anything like the full skillset for a centre but who has enough ability that the management will be loath to be without him.

You can see how the changes will come if Barritt and Tuilagi don't show a lot more than they have done, and do it quickly.

I'm hearing rumours England are starting Brown on the left wing?!

It's either that or they are playing Joseph on the wing in defence and Tuilagi on the wing in attack.

Not much point dropping new backs in to the AI's now especially before we sort the pack out, they'll just get hammering from two of the best teams about and their confidence knocked.

Focus on the pack, get Corbs, Launchberry and Wood in there and then in the 6N's we'll get 36 and Lowe in at centre. (That combo is the future).

robshaw4england wrote:I'm hearing rumours England are starting Brown on the left wing?!

It's either that or they are playing Joseph on the wing in defence and Tuilagi on the wing in attack.

How can you get muddled between Brown and Joseph?

Tom Williams anyone?

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RETAINED FROM EPS

FORWARDS (14)
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
David Paice (London Irish)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, capt)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
BACKS (10)

Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)